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Forum ass-clowns and the definition of fraud

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by steffigraff77, Aug 16, 2013.

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  1. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Anyone had any experience with this casino? [NB: original thread title was "casinoseiger.com"] They owe me about 4000 euros. They went through a laborious procedure of KYC including notarised ID but have stalled. They have paid me back my deposits via MB but claim that they keep getting rejected by my bank to complete the KYC procedure.

    It has been 9 weeks. All i get is that" we are looking into it"

    Have i been done? And if i have what can i do? I don't imagine CM can help here but who can in this situation?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2013
  2. me_and_ed

    me_and_ed Ueber Meister CAG MM

    Occupation:
    Specialty construction srving the high rise commun
    Location:
    Vancouver
    9 weeks, I would fill out a PAB ASAP and get Max looking into it..
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Most odd, but something YOU can check out with your bank to find what is REALLY going on. Your bank would have done their own KYC before offering you an account, so as far as they are concerned, it's not an issue.

    It's either a stalling tactic, which you can find out from your bank by asking about anything that has been attempted, but rejected, on your account, or the casino is themselves not passing your bank's KYC, and so they are not allowing the payment to go through.

    It's also worth finding out if the casino has been trying to TAKE money from your bank account as it's means to perform KYC. Your bank may reject this if it believes you have not authorised this. It can also be a problem if they are trying to take the KYC token debit coded as "gambling transaction", with your bank rejecting it due to it being a gambling transaction, rather than any KYC issue.

    You should be able to find out all of this from your bank, and can then approach the casino with the findings.

    Since you deposited via MB in the first place, how come your bank is even involved, the sum should all go back to MB under the usual rule of paying withdrawals back to the method used for the deposit.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    I have spoken to my bank and they have no knowledge of any rejected transactions. The bank is involved to complete their KYC procedures as they repeatedly keep telling me ( i kept asking the same!)


    This is my bank:

    Re: Credit Query

    Thank you for your message dated 01-Aug-2013.

    I suggest you contact Company Casinoseiger to see the reason for the delay or payment getting returned, as first direct do not have any control over credits into your account. There would only be a delay is an incorrect sort code or account number was quoted.

    Please contact us if you require anything further.

    Regards

    Banking Solutions


    And this is back on the 26th July...with no further updates.

    Thank you for your patience.
    As promised I would send you an update today.
    Unfortunately I am still waiting for the final written approval from the board on this exception,

    FYI: the suggestion made to them by me was to pay you an advanced payment by moneybookers untill we made the transfer by bank ( succesfully), because we would be really happy to keep you on board.

    I am now awaiting for the amounts which can be already cleared this way and if it is an option due to the failed banktransfer.
    I expect to get an update / approval during this weekend.

    Sincerely,
    Christian
    Finance Department
    Casino Sieger
     
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If this is the fault, the bank would not be able to trace the attempt, but it's also not "your bank" doing the rejecting, but one of THEIR banks, or an intermediary.

    One thing you can now do is triple check the sort code and account number the casino have used, and make sure it's the same as the one you have given, and is correct. A final step would be to forward the bank details the casino has used to First Direct, and ask them if they can see any problem with it.

    So a mere €4000 is SO large that they can't handle it through the usual channels, their MB account to yours. If they really want to keep you on board, they are giving you a VERY bad impression of their ability to pay even moderate wins.

    They should bite the bullet and move the money into their merchant MB account so that they can pay you. Granted, it may take 3 working days to do this before they can action payment, but at least it will bring an end to this issue next week.

    You could also PAB to get to the bottom of this, but it does seem that they want to pay you, but for some reason find they can't.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Thanks..the sort codes and account numbers have been triple checked but i hadn't thought about getting the bank details the casino uses and see if First direct find a problem with that. Can i still PAB even though this is not an accredited casino here? I didn't think i could? Also i sense they will just say they are working on it...and part of me believes this but what is considered reasonable time in trying to solve a problem?

    Here is a live chat from 1st August..another response i got when i pushed them again...

    Me: hi
    You are now chatting with carla.
    carla: Hi M, How may I help you?
    Me: HI carla
    Me: still no sign of my withdrawal? what is going on? Please can you help?
    carla: let me look up your file and your username
    Me: Is it unreasonable to expect payment by now?
    carla: I see Christian send you a message earlier today
    Me: I have just had an email from Christian 3 mins ago!
    carla: 3 mins ago?
    carla: ah, yes chekcing the time it is
    Me: yes..but it is more of the same...
    Me: I understand your position, but for us it is also not normal that a banking transfer willbe declined. I am doing my best to make an exception for you here, and get payouts done ASAP to you. Once again, you are right that is taking more time than normal, but unfortunately we can not change the fact the payouts got declined by bank. Normally it will be handled after 24 hours, and on bank acounts 1-3 working days afterwards. I keep you posted.
    carla: What do you mean, by more of the same?
    Me: same thing he has been saying to me for weeks now.
    carla: I see, he is trying to make an exception for you here,,,
    carla: Normal procedures are that we have a known valid bankpayment for our KYC records.
    Me: i don't understand why ( like so many other casinos) payment can't be made back to moneybookers ( my deposit method) or neteller ( my other e-wallet)...
    carla: I see there is the trouble.
    Me: i know... but if it is not working ...we can't just carry on ignoring things!
    carla: becuase we are bound to regulations which preventing money laundering
    carla: that is why we set up a policy according to those rules
    Me: My bank has never refused bacs tranfers before from all over the world!
    carla: one part for higher payment amounts, is that we also have a proven right bank account, than we know alwyas to whho we send money to.
    Me: can you give me details of attempted bacs transfers..where from, when , how much etc so i can ask my bank ...
    carla: Al I can see here in a glance is that we have tried 3 times -
    carla: I have no access to the banking logs are statements, I can only see the attempts and results
    Me: its the UK... it should work...it has always worked in the past... I need the details. I am really frustrated.
    carla: I really understand your frustration M
    Me: Can you get the details so i can try to do something my end.
    carla: But I know your case in in good hands at Christians

    Its the most frustrating experience i have ever had. God knows why i ever signed up to them...Just fancied trying a new place ...they didn't even have a great bonus !
     
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There is no SPECIFIC regulation that stipulates payment must be made to a particular account, just that whatever accounts are used have gone through the appropriate KYC checks.

    Moneybookers (Skrill) is also an account that has to comply with KYC procedures, so once verified, is just as much a "known account" as a bank account. Since you have deposited via Skrill, the casino has already verified the account.

    There is also an alternative to their failed procedures, and that is for you to DEPOSIT from the bank account they are trying to pay to. This will also tie you to the account, and even if they still can't make payment to it, they will at least have satisfied their "policy".

    I usually deposit via Neteller, and have frequently withdrawn more than €4000, WAY more, yet have never had a casino insist on paying via bank transfer.

    From what First Direct told you, you (or a fraudster) could more EASILY defraud the casino by providing the sort code and account number of their own account, having first deposited via a hacked Skrill account. The bank cannot check CREDITS, it's just a matter of the sender providing the correct details, which in turn is provided by the player. Making a deposit from your bank is a different matter, you either have to log in to the bank to initiate the transfer, or use a debit card on the casino's banking page, for which you will need possession of the card. The casino would then get the details from the inbound deposit and be able to check that the name matches the details provided to the casino.

    There is yet another alternative, knowing which bank it is, and that is for them to send a cheque, and you to pay it in using one of those envelopes you will have been sent to manage the account, and which can be ordered online if you run out.

    Whilst a cheque is even slower than the 1-3 days for a bank transfer, if it's in your name, and the casino's bank account has the money, it should go through. The casino will not have to use your sort code and account number to send a cheque, you provide this on the envelope when paying it in.

    They can then verify that the cheque has been deposited, which again should satisfy their policy of having a verified bank account on file for you.

    As for me, NO casino has "my bank details on file", so there is something a bit odd going on here.

    Now this in particular looks like the whole thing is a stalling tactic:-


    Understandable that CS don't have instant access to this, but then CS dodges the request for them to obtain the details the cashiers are using so that you can verify with your bank that they are correct. They would rather work in the dark as they have been trying for half the month, rather than have you help out by getting help from First Direct as to why THEY are bouncing the credits back to the casino's bank.

    It could be that the casino's bank are using the details you sent, but not in the correct format for the region from which the transaction originates. Perhaps they are trying to use the sort code and account number as IBAN and BIC, for an international (non US) payment, whereas in the short form (6 digit sort and 8 digit account no) they are for transfers between accounts wholly within the UK banking system.

    You could try sending them the international IBAN and BIC to try, instead of the sort code and account number. This might work (unless they really are stalling). IBAN and BIC are shown on the statement that comes through the post, or if you have online only, should be available from the banking pages, or you could phone them and ask.

    You should seriously consider not going back to this casino after this gets sorted out, it has been a complete farce of a very simple procedure.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Thanks again for your very helpful response. I am onto them again and will offer them some of your suggestions... Incidently they do have my IBAN etc.. I had to have a statement specially ordered which they insisted on.

    They have gone quiet for a week now... :(
     
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    In that case, they should have the definitive copy of your bank details, so the onus is now on them to figure it out.

    Either they are stalling, or someone is screwing up at their end, either their cashier, or their processor and the bank they use.

    This kind of thing has happened before with players trying to get paid by international bank transfer. Where the player has given the correct information, it has stemmed from the casino's own finance team or the processor they use thinking they know better and "correcting" the details forwarded by the player because as far as they are concerned, they are wrong.

    I had this problem with Neteller crediting my Cahoot account. I was giving them the correct information, and double checking, and the payments were getting through. I then received a letter from my bank telling me that in fact Neteller had decided they knew better, and were changing the sort code every time. This meant Cahoot had to manually retrieve and divert the payment from "credit card payments" (the sort code Neteller were using) to "current accounts", and they were getting fed up with it, so told me that if it wasn't corrected, I might no longer receive the money.

    I wonder if the same is happening to you, and unlike Cahoot, First Direct are not able (or willing) the redirect the payment manually, so bounce it back. Since this would also mean the attempt was not tied to your account, the bank would tell you that no attempt to make the payment can be traced, rather than that they rejected it.

    Usually, casinos ask for a bank statement where the player says the money didn't arrive, but their processor said it did (it hasn't bounced back). In this case, they KNOW it didn't arrive, so they don't need you to prove it. The other possibility is that they asked for the statement because they didn't believe you when you said the details you gave were correct, so want to see for themselves.


    This is why casinos insisting on bank transfer payments is not a good sign, there can be problems when it comes to sending international payments. It should be OK for the operators that target the UK though, as they will ensure that the payment is handled by a UK bank. It seems from my experience with Neteller that Barclays is one of the preferred options (not even this works 100%).

    A cheque in Sterling drawn on a UK or EU bank might be a better option in terms of getting the money to go through, but it would mean you waiting another week at least. Casinos have paid me this way before, and so has Neteller. All have arrived in the post in under a week, and created no problems when deposited into my bank.
     
  10. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    I will try the cheque route..but is suspect they will repeat that the only way they can complete the KYC procedure is by electronic bank transfer. One of the other problems is i am not sure if it is incompetence or deliberate avoidance of payment? Should i threaten court action? I don't mind doing it for 4k tbh.
     
  11. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    What court action? Where?

    You'd be wasting your time and money.

    A PAB would be a better option.
     
  12. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Looks like a load of KYC Bullshit:rolleyes:

    There is no one telling them how to do their KYC, they have just made up their own internal policy, so if they need to, they can vary it according to the situation without having to consult their regulator.

    The government of Costa Rica don't "oversee" anything, it's a rubber stamp "business license", and it has nothing to do with regulating the activity they do as their business, but more to do with ensuring that they contribute to the local economy.

    What I find even more striking is that they offer Microgaming, out of Costa Ricao_O

    Zero chance therefore of a meaningful court action.


    What has happened to the standards that Microgaming once held dear, where players could pretty much be certain that any operator offering Microgaming games could be trusted, and would at least be properly licensed. It seems that where Quickfire and other browser based platforms are concerned, Microgaming do NOT vet the operators as they do for a Viper casino, thus the appearance of Microgaming games should not be taken as an indication that Microgaming have given them their seal of approval.


    If they are sending payment from Costa Rica, it's hardly surprising they have screwed up somehow, and are blaming YOUR bank.

    It seems they are targeting two markets, and the UK is one of them. They may be one of the operators who will flout the new UK regime from December 2014, knowing full well there is nothing the UK government can do about it other than to block their domain by court order.

    Given their location, and thus effectively unlicensed status, a PAB is probably the only option worth pursuing if they continue to claim your bank is rejecting the transfer now that they have a copy of your statement with the relevant banking details on it.

    From the "spot the rogue" guide:-

     
  13. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    = what VWM said but in 3 sentences.
     
  14. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    :lolup:
     
  15. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Ok..I will forget the courts then...
    I will hold fire for a little while to see what they come back with to the recent emails i have sent...they are usually polite, responsive and reassuring...
    Failing that...no harm in a PAB.
    Thanks all again.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Rather worryingly....live chat has left me hanging waiting for an operator. And they have not responded to my emails from the weekend!
    Lets give them a few more days....
     
  17. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    Strange stuff here..they have locked my account and just been on live chat and they have not received a single email from me in the last week. Maybe they blocked my email?
    I don't think i am going to get paid...this is despite paying me my initial deposit back but non of my winnings!
     
  18. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This makes it look more and more like bullshit and stalling. Casinos tend to return just the deposit when they have already made the decision not to pay, but have yet to inform the player, or feel that no independent attempt at mediation is forthcoming, or likely to change their decision.

    Your alternative options apart from a PAB seem to have been exhausted, and it would seem that the only way to make meaningful progress is via a PAB. If they decide to stonewall Max, they risk coming to the attention of Bryan and entering the pit. Since they have already said the payment has been approved and sent, yet being blocked by the UK bank First Direct, they have very little room to change their story, as well as no room to claim it's your fault for giving the wrong details now that they have asked for, and you have sent, a statement from First Direct with the correct banking details on it.

    It does rather look like that having been backed into a corner because the statement has the correct details, they are now trying to use the "never received it" excuse in order to argue that they still don't have access to solid confirmation of the correct details with which to send the payment. They are also using a bunch of excuses as to why a method that WILL work cannot be an option, despite it being the industry standard, and one of the key guidelines for the prevention of money laundering.
     
  19. steffigraff77

    steffigraff77 Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    education
    Location:
    London
    I will give them a few more days and then PAB.
     
  20. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You are just helping them stall further. It also gives them more time to put together their story, so best submit the PAB now. If the issue does get resolved in the mean time, just let Max know so that he doesn't waste more time than is necessary. Don't be the one to tell them either, let their first experience be the request from Max that they deal with this issue via the PAB procedure.
     
    1 person likes this.
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