Forum ass-clowns and the definition of fraud

[maxd]

Okay, Bryan is back and remembered some history regarding the OP. Turns out he's had multiple accounts on the forum, etc. He's banned and his PAB -- which had pretty much come to a "thumbs down" conclusion anyway due to a high probability of fraudsterism -- is toast. End of story as far as we are concerned.

 

[hpiski]

KYC documents failed

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

 

[mimi26]

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

Just out of interest how long did you wait for the documents, 9 weeks seems an awful long time for a conclusion to this.

 

[maxd]

... 9 weeks seems an awful long time for a conclusion to this.

The PAB was received on the 20th August 2013. That's when it became clear that the primary issue was documents, and new requirements were given to the OP. Start to finish the PAB took 9 days give or take, not 9 weeks.

 

[mimi26]

The PAB was received on the 20th August 2013. That's when it became clear that the primary issue was documents, and new requirements were given to the OP. Start to finish the PAB took 9 days give or take, not 9 weeks.

Sorry maybe you misunderstood, I was talking about the op initail post to say he/she had been waiting 9 weeks for a conclusion from the casino.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just out of further interest,

Why is a rep for Grand Duke casino giving a formal statement about an issue involving fraud at Casinoseiger

It's pretty "clever" that the OP managed to slip their activities past Bryan for so long, multiple forum accounts usually get spotted earlier.

 

[maxd]

... I was talking about the op initail post to say he/she had been waiting 9 weeks for a conclusion from the casino.

I understand, but the OP was having problems with the casino because the casino had serious problems with the OP's documents. The some point the OP stopped responding to those document requests. Sometime later they appeared here.

The point is that the OP's claims that it was taking too long is like a thief saying "I would have left the store earlier but they took so long handing over the money". In other words, too bad for him! The casino had legitimate concerns and is never under any obligation to expedite their payouts to suspected fraudsters. Dealing with it in due course is all that is reasonably required and IMO they pretty much did that. Once the PAB was on the table they didn't hesitate for a moment to move things forward, and expected the OP to do the same.

 

[maxd]

It's pretty "clever" that the OP managed to slip their activities past Bryan for so long, multiple forum accounts usually get spotted earlier.

Shit happens, and your point is?

 

[questa]

Shit happens, and your point is?

So why were they supposedly trying to pay him by bank transfer?

What documents did they ask for, what did he provide?? Was he a fraudster, or just had an old forum account?

All seems a bit odd, I am deciding to avoid this casino regardless I think.

 

[maxd]

Was he a fraudster… .

As I recall Bryan had previously banned the guy from Casinomeister under similar circumstances. So yes, a serial fraudster [strike]both[/strike] here [strike]and at the casinos[/strike].

(See https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/forum-ass-clowns-and-the-definition-of-fraud.58408/ for details on the edits above)

 

[LaurieJim]

The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.

Could someone explain to me as what this Notary Certified Doc for gaming consists of , I do notarized docs / loans , ect everyday for a living and was just curious. Does said player have to afirm an oath and provide Goverment photo Id's or if no photo Id, wittnesses to bear proof of said players identity to a notary.

I do many US Patriot Act forms, which ask for 2 forms of IDs as proof of identity, checking signatures and other data , ect. What also is the cost to the player for services provided by the notary in Europe or elsewhere outside of the US? I understand that this service can be costly to players in some countries.

I am just having trouble understanding how the NCID docs failed internal fraud security as once the Id's are collected , signatures verified arnd the doc signed and stamped by the notary , they are then considered a legal doc and proof of identity has been established.

This can be a good thing but if the casino has a good fraud department , why do they need to burden the players with a hefty expense when they can do the same job themselves.

Just read Maxd's post above.................


Laurie

 

[maxd]

Could someone explain to me as what this Notary Certified Doc for gaming consists of ....

The notarization of documents varies from place to place, nothing specific to gaming. In some countries you can get standard documents notarized for free, in others (actually only one that I know of) there is no such thing as a Notary.

In this particular case, and many like it, what the casino is asking for is that the authenticity of the documents be verified and signed-off by the notary. But fraudsters can be and often are fairly creative people: fake notaries, bogus notary seals, photoshopping, etc are all tools for the fraudster trade when it comes to getting around the notarization issue. As I'm sure you'll understand it would be inappropriate to say EXACTLY what this particular fraudster did because then they'd know exactly how to up their game and try again next time.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Shit happens, and your point is?

My point is that the OP joined with this account in May 2009. This has given them more credibility than someone who joins purely to post a complaint. I had thought that behind the scenes was an automated check to flag accounts that might be duplicates of other forum accounts, especially banned ones. Banned members do keep trying to slip by, but they tend to get caught much more quickly than 4 years.

The OP could have gotten away with even more had they not screwed up with the First Direct account and caused repeated failures of the bank transfer that appeared to cause the casino to take an even closer look at the documents.

We now learn that even the system of notarised documents is beginning to get circumvented via fake notaries or seals. This is tough on fraudsters, but also presents a serious problem for honest players as I can't see what further steps can be taken after requesting a set of notarised documents through the post, other than actually sending someone around to the player's address to do an on the spot verification of everything. The weakness in the current system is that it's still the player that gets to prepare, get notarised, and send, the documents. This level of control makes it easier for the fraudster to try various schemes such as photoshopping and faking notarisation.

As well as the fakes, there are certain to be the genuine, but dishonest, notaries, who will produce a document which although fake, will check out OK during the verification procedures.

 

[maxd]

I had thought that behind the scenes was an automated check to flag accounts that might be duplicates ....

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.

The OP could have gotten away with even more had they not screwed up with the First Direct account ...

And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? So you don't really know anything more than has been posted here do you? And you're willing to take the OP's statements at face value? How responsible is that, particularly coming from a seasoned and experienced forum member like yourself, not to mention using it as source material for your guesstimations and suppositions?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have reliable information on. Wild speculations -- essentially pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact -- helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. From the beginning his documents were suspect and the casino had repeatedly asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. As I recall the casino's attempts to deposit to the OP's accounts we just another part of the verification/investigation process, not as you claim the thing that tipped them off in the first place.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

 

[LaurieJim]

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.



And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? Just making shit up again are we?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have good information on. Pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. Documents were suspect and the casino asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. Eventually he posted here trying to pressure the casino to proceed anyway, and finally the issue ended up in a PAB.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

This is what I do not understand , yes these frauds can be done and if a casino needs a form done and notarized why doesn't the casinos come up with a better approach?

It is killing me as I want to say how this can be done safely and would save players time and money everywhere from having to send or scan Docs to the respected casinos and would weed out any fraud abusers.

It can easily be set up by any casino , really it could !

Laurie

 

[maxd]

Why keep it a secret? If it's a great solution then I should think sharing it would be a swell idea.

As to the casino asking for notarization (a) they have their reasons and (b) it's part of the information gathering process, not to mention that they sometimes need to have such things on file. Casinos (generally) aren't run by stupid people and they seldom do things for no good reason.

 

[LaurieJim]

Why keep it a secret? If it's a great solution then I should think sharing it would be a swell idea.

As to the casino asking for notarization (a) they have their reasons and (b) it's part of the information gathering process, not to mention that they sometimes need to have such things on file. Casinos (generally) aren't run by stupid people and they seldom do things for no good reason.

Sent you a pm explaining

Laurie

 

[Przecinek]

IDK ...on another forum you can find pretty strong evidence that OP was actually innocent in this case. There are links to a notary that certified the documents etc.
OP suggests that his old (multiple) account was actually long time ages ago, not now. Can this be confirmed?

 

[vinylweatherman]

As previously pointed out your endless assumptions and speculations are not fact. The accounts screening process is largely a matter of hands-on expertise -- Bryan's -- and is not automated to any significant degree.



And you know this how? You are privy to the casino's internal processes perhaps? Or is it that you have some personal access to the PAB files? No? None of the above? So you don't really know anything more than has been posted here do you? And you're willing to take the OP's statements at face value? How responsible is that, particularly coming from a seasoned and experienced forum member like yourself, not to mention using it as source material for your guesstimations and suppositions?

As has been asked of you before, please limit your statements to what you actually know or have reliable information on. Wild speculations -- essentially pulling stuff out of your arse and presenting it as fact -- helps no one and is nothing more than disinformation that clouds and confuses the issue at hand.

As it happens the OP never properly completed the KYC process. From the beginning his documents were suspect and the casino had repeatedly asked for them to be resubmitted. The OP did not fully cooperate. As I recall the casino's attempts to deposit to the OP's accounts we just another part of the verification/investigation process, not as you claim the thing that tipped them off in the first place.

And if the issue of faked documents -- notarized or otherwise -- comes as a surprise to you then you haven't been paying very close attention. Fraudsters can and will fake pretty much anything, use/borrow/steal pretty much anyone's info and lie until the cows come home in tutus. Faking and/or manipulating notary seals is old news.

I bank with First Direct, and if they used the banking details on the statement, the deposit would have gone through. Banks don't verify the name on an account when accepting inbound credits, they just read the account number and the sort code, and credit the deposit. If the OP used someone else's bank details, the deposit would still have gone through. It would only fail if details were for an account that does not exist, and this would be pretty stupid as at this stage, the OP would have been expecting the rest of the money.

If even a notary isn't good enough, then innocent players who are wrongly suspected are also at risk, not just the fraudsters. Innocent players can no longer rely on the premise that getting their documents properly notarised will be accepted by the casino.

The OP is actually making a fair bit of noise about this issue, and is determined to prove they are innocent. The OP is claiming that the multiple forum account issue is nothing more than some old account that was created and hardly ever used, and is being unfairly used as a means to brand them a fraud.

The OP has also named the notary they used, and invited others to check their legitimacy. The one thing the OP has NOT done is publish the documents that have been branded as fakes. This is either because they don't want to reveal personal info, or it will be much more obvious to others that they were fake to start with.

 

[Jufo]

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself and prove that the notarized documents and his identity were genuine. He may be an advantage player but it doesn't mean that he is a fraudster. Therefore I feel like the case should be re-opened and the OP should be given a proper chance to prove that the documents were legit.

 

[mimi26]

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself and prove that the notarized documents and his identity were genuine. He may be an advantage player but it doesn't mean that he is a fraudster. Therefore I feel like the case should be re-opened and the OP should be given a proper chance to prove that the documents were legit.

I agree he/she should be given a chance to defend but then again I suppose if something fraudulent has happened in the past well its sort of like the boy who cried wolf.

 

[rpalmer83]

From skim reading the thread it's quite clear the casino lied to the player in the first instance by saying they had attempted to make credits to his bank account on more than one occasion and they were rejected by his bank. They were evidently able to take deposits so logic would denote it should have been simple to return winnings to the same account he deposited with. Sounds like a stalling tactic and dishonest practice on the casino's side.

If the player can prove his identity then he should quite simply be paid. We are not talking millions here, it seems an awful lot of trouble to go to having fake documents made up and be posting in here for the sake of a few thousand £/$/€. If he has supplied a photocard driving licence/passport & bank statement with co-responding residential address and these also co-respond with the casino account then that should be more than ample proof the player is who he says he is.

The player appears to have also had documents notarised by a solicitor. Were any steps taken to contact the Solicitor to verify authenticity? surely someone in legal standing would be able to confirm outright whether the OP is genuine having physically signed documents off confirming this fact?.

Opening multiple message board accounts might be a breach of casinomeister rules & website staff are right to take the actions it sees fit but it is in no way a reflection that someone is a 'fraudster' unless these linked accounts have a history of doing the same type of thing, it's wrong to make such allegations and could even be seen as legally defamatory if the OP is indeed innocent.

It's not really right how some casinos will happily take your deposits without proof of identity but when it comes to paying out hoops have to be jumped through. As this post is in the 'non-bonus' issues section I presume a bonus wasn't involved so I really don't understand what a 'fraudster' would have to gain from depositing, wagering, winning and withdrawing to the same method of payment?. If it was anything sinister then surely the bank it's come out of & gone into would be in a far better position to detect dodgy behaviour?.

 

[maxd]

There seems to be a lot of confusion and unfamiliarity with the facts regarding this case. I'd like to clear up a few things:

...on another forum you can find pretty strong evidence that OP was actually innocent in this case.

As far as we are concerned his guilt or innocence ceased to be of interest when Bryan discoved that the guy had previously been banned from Casinomeister for multi-account fraud. The bottom line is that that guy has history here and as such we're not interested in dealing with him any further. Full stop insofar as his PAB goes.

It does look to me that the OP was never given a proper chance to defend himself ....

Not true. He filed a PAB, we worked on it for almost two weeks, the OP STILL failed to produce acceptable documents and I was ready to decide in favour of the casino and shut the PAB down. At that point his previous ban here at Casinomeister came to light and that was the end of that.

... it's quite clear the casino lied to the player in the first instance by saying they had attempted to make credits to his bank account on more than one occasion and they were rejected by his bank.

It is unwise for those who know little or nothing about a case to assume they somehow "know things". It is even less wise to make statements like the above simply because you're on the player's side. What you've said here is 100% untrue. The casino was given bogus banking info by the player and because of that there were (obviously) serious problems trying to deposit. As I recall the bank went back to the player at least once, maybe twice, for further banking info and the player still gave them screwed up info. This will set of MAJOR alarm bells at any casino, and so it should.

In any case the OP burned his chances with us because of his repeated Forum Rules violations regarding multiple accounts AND because he was previously found to be a fraudster. If you want to champion this guy's case please do it elsewhere.

Later: I for one am highly sceptical of someone who was nailed for fraud in the past, has a case now that smells suspiciously of more fraud, created a new forum account under false pretenses to press his agenda, and is busy proclaiming his innocence. I think it far more likely that said person has improved their game and is enjoying a good run at pulling a fast one.

 

[topoor]

Something doesn't seem right here. Why would a fraudster give incorrect banking details twice?

Also what did the notary who certified the documents say when they were contacted about the fraudulent use of their seals or are you saying the notary is corrupt as well?

Did this players first forum account get shut down because they committed fraud? Sorry if I've got that wrong but I think that's what you're saying.

 

[rpalmer83]

It is unwise for those who know little or nothing about a case to assume they somehow "know things". It is even less wise to make statements like the above simply because you're on the player's side. What you've said here is 100% untrue. The casino was given bogus banking info by the player and because of that there were (obviously) serious problems trying to deposit. As I recall the bank went back to the player at least once, maybe twice, for further banking info and the player still gave them screwed up info. This will set of MAJOR alarm bells at any casino, and so it should.

I am not assuming anything, I have based what I have said here on the OP's original first post. He said he had been paid his deposits back via Moneybookers. So it would seem his original deposits came from Moneybookers. They took the deposits and the wagers without issues so Why were the winnings also not returned to Moneybookers?, if they paid the deposits back I see no reason why they couldn't also pay the remaining winnings back via this method rather than wanting to pay it into a bank account?. If the OP asked for them to be paid via a bank account, the logical thing for the casino to do would be to just say No they need to back to the original payment method. The OP also posted a response from First Direct (Bank) stating that no deposit attempts had been made to the account. Regardless of the PAB, The OP also said he'd been waiting 9 weeks and they dragged their feet. If the Casino had grounds to suspect fraud why not tell him there and then 'you aren't getting paid, your a fraud' and pass the matter to the relevant authorities?. It just does not stack up.

any case the OP burned his chances with us because of his repeated Forum Rules violations regarding multiple accounts AND because he was previously found to be a fraudster. If you want to champion this guy's case please do it elsewhere. Later: I for one am highly sceptical of someone who was nailed for fraud in the past, has a case now that smells suspiciously of more fraud, created a new forum account under false pretenses to press his agenda, and is busy proclaiming his innocence. I think it far more likely that said person has improved their game and is enjoying a good run at pulling a fast one.

If the OP has submitted false identity documents, bogus bank details & tried to use casinomeister in order to get a payout previously through such practice & this was a clear repeated attempt then it is quite damning but if he is now posting on other forums and pushing to get people to listen I would wager that he is innocent rather than a massive fraudster as it wouldn't make sense to keep drawing attention to yourself if you engage in illegal activities surely?.