Exterminating the low-roller from online casinos

[Mavin1]

And I'm just guessing that the fact they've done this on a High Variance slot is just a coincidence eh? If, as a low-roller, you're prepared to take a chance on a HV slot, you know you can hit big even at small stakes. Bet they don't do the same with Liquid Gold - which is probably the lowest variance slot that MG has.

And agreeing with you (as I always seem to do lol) on your 2nd point - As I suggested previously; Ladies Nite didn't used to be HV, but it is now.

That is a very interesting point that I hadn't even thought of. Another way of forcing a player to up the anty. I figure some of these kind of changes are also being used as tests to see if people continue to play them at a higher wager requirement. When players except this type of change with no qualms, then you will most likely see even more being transitioned to a higher wager play.

 

[Mavin1]

A picture paints a thousand words, and this demonstrates a CLEAR INTENT to prevent players from BETTING below a certain amount per wager, unless they play fewer LINES in this case. Many low rollers prefer to bet less per line, rather than bet far fewer lines, and see a big win come on a line they left out.

This also shows something else; PROOF that MGS DO INDEED change the OLD games. I have NEVER seen this configuration option on ANY MGS game at ANY MGS casino before.

Yes and it's not just MGS making such changes. Why are there so many complaints overall for RTG, some have a few good sessions here and there, but the majority of the concensus is that they are probably the tightest platform out there. We are dazzled by their slots and some are also drawn in by the RJ on each one. When you are new, you sign up, take a bonus and have a fantastric time with lots of wins to keep you playing for hours. Then as so many have said, when you start maxing your WR then it changes, like a switch was flipped, heard this many many times. Only some manage to squeek through and take home some cash, but most are dashed on the rocks and bottom out.
Top Game, I used to love playing there, even with it having been considered not the place to play. Why, because I actually was able to on several occasions make withdrawals of $170 to $500 with just a $25 to $50 deposit. From the time I first started playing with them which was back in early June, they have been in constant transition from having loose slots to now being easily compared to RTG, where they have become so tight they squeek.
This is not to say that with any one of these casinos you still can't ever win anything, because you can, eventually. But it has become with many and maybe all that you have to invest so much more money than ever before to finally see a return.

And when you consider all the casinos doing constant updates when logging on making constant changes anymore, then you have to ask what is going on and how are these changes affecting the play and return for so many that have earnestly invested their own money.

 

[Mavin1]

Just to add to this thought, for years 32Red's minimum deposit has been $20. About a month or six weeks ago, they lowered this to ten dollars, which I was ecstatic about. Inetbet has always had the $1 minimum CC deposit, as far as I can remember. And someone mentioned 3Dice as well having a $10 minimum. I'm sort of curious if any other MG's have lowered their minimums from $20 or $25 to $10?

It just seems odd that if they wanted to get rid of low rollers, they would lower the minimum deposit to $10...especially given the fact that they pay processing fees on each deposit and withdrawal. I'm sure they'd much rather have someone deposit $50 once, as opposed to $10 five times, from a fee standpoint. When 32Red (maybe MG altogether?) lowered the minimum altogether, I sort of looked upon it as them catering to the low roller. Don't really know what to think. They certainly won't get me to raise my bets...I'm the Queen of the low rollers, and intend to stay that way.

I have been thinking on your comment and can appreciate what you are saying, but IMO to have a lowered deposit feature just insures getting the low rollers in the door more often. Most players that have deposited say $10 and the amount is gone in a flash they will most likely deposit more since they are already in the door and most likely deposit more than the $10 as they see this amount is not buying the majority of players a decent session. The player will see that his/her decision to deposit such a low amount was most likely a waste and would feel a larger deposit would net a better return.

Once when I had gone to the B&M, early, I hit $200 on the first slot I played on. The hubby asked me later why I didn't leave then, my answer was that I had just gotten there and wasn't ready to call my day off done.

In the players psyche with online casinos, I'm sure it's pretty much the same, you just logged in and deposited, you're not ready to quit as you have a perceived notion that you will have a decent play session. I understand that some can just hit the disconnect and exit button, but not everyone does. Most will continue and that is why the lowered deposit amounts have been put out there in some casinos, not as a catering to a low roller, but as a way of getting a depositor in the door.

 

[Wildfire7]

[/B]



I have been thinking on your comment and can appreciate what you are saying, but IMO to have a lowered deposit feature just insures getting the low rollers in the door more often. Most players that have deposited say $10 and the amount is gone in a flash they will most likely deposit more since they are already in the door and most likely deposit more than the $10 as they see this amount is not buying the majority of players a decent session. The player will see that his/her decision to deposit such a low amount was most likely a waste and would feel a larger deposit would net a better return.

Once when I had gone to the B&M, early, I hit $200 on the first slot I played on. The hubby asked me later why I didn't leave then, my answer was that I had just gotten there and wasn't ready to call my day off done.

In the players psyche with online casinos, I'm sure it's pretty much the same, you just logged in and deposited, you're not ready to quit as you have a perceived notion that you will have a decent play session. I understand that some can just hit the disconnect and exit button, but not everyone does. Most will continue and that is why the lowered deposit amounts have been put out there in some casinos, not as a catering to a low roller, but as a way of getting a depositor in the door.

Gambling is not the cheapest hobby in the world, some people won't be satisified until they can gamble all day long on 10 credits. A lot of low rollers bust out quickly simply because they are not selecting the optimum bet size for their bankroll. Players should not be chasing their losses either, which you allude to in your commentary Mavin. If a player is making 5 seperate 10 credit deposits then the player is either chasing losses or being unrealistic about his expectations.

Just because 10 credits does not sound a lot, if somebody is low rolling then it will be a lot for them to lose, so perhaps they need to look at their daily deposit limits if they are over budgeting, exactly the same as a higher roller should if they made 5 deposits of 200 credits, if they only set out to make one deposit.

Low rollers can't have it all their own way, if you roll low then you roll low for a reason, so chasing losses surely is a big no no.

Mike

 

[LaurieJim]

Gambling is not the cheapest hobby in the world, some people won't be satisified until they can gamble all day long on 10 credits. A lot of low rollers bust out quickly simply because they are not selecting the optimum bet size for their bankroll. Players should not be chasing their losses either, which you allude to in your commentary Mavin. If a player is making 5 seperate 10 credit deposits then the player is either chasing losses or being unrealistic about his expectations.
Just because 10 credits does not sound a lot, if somebody is low rolling then it will be a lot for them to lose, so perhaps they need to look at their daily deposit limits if they are over budgeting, exactly the same as a higher roller should if they made 5 deposits of 200 credits, if they only set out to make one deposit.

Low rollers can't have it all their own way, if you roll low then you roll low for a reason, so chasing losses surely is a big no no.

Mike

I will keep making 10.00 and 15.00 deposits as long as the casinos allow them, i try to always do the min deposit at other casinos and while im low rolling, im having a ball and some of the time winning, its for my entertainment, now if your set on trying to make a living depositing 100.00 and up at one time, hpoing for that big win to try to put bread on the table ,then thats when its unrealistic to play imo............laurie

 

[nisosbar]

Wildfire makes an excellent point. If you are going to gamble, you have to scale your bets properly. Everyone has a different method of determining that, but the Kelly Criterion dictates that your bet size rises and falls with your bankroll, so that, IN THEORY, you should NEVER go broke if this were a perfect world, and you could gamble in a highly customized manner.

Fortune's Formula, by William Poundstone, is a great introductory book, and a lot of fun to read - not just a lot of boring stats.

 

[Mavin1]

Sorry for my absence, was busy playing the last 5 or 6 hours, whew, at TG Rome casino. Deposited $49 with a 500% bonus , that was hard getting through the playthrough, but cashed out $160, over last weekend deposited $39 at All Jackpots casino with a 100% bonus, cashed out $800.
So gotta thank everyone for your input, it is always helpeful seeing others perspective on things.
I guess I am not going to concern myself with trying to figure to much out anymore. I will just enjoy what I usually have and if things are crappy for a time I won't worry about it.
Thanks..............

 

[vinylweatherman]

That is called an adjustment, not change. Ask all that are in the "know" because that is what I am told everytime I have tried to show something has "changed"...so VWM...I hope you have better luck convincing them then I ever had...because you will be in an uphill fight since there really has been no changes... because it wasn't "announced" as one..but as I understand it, "adjustments are allowed without "notice" to the players..

.

Well, I doubt the RTP or variance has changed, but the range of options to determine the amount bet per spin has been SEVERELY restricted. This simply didn't exist before with MGS, so at some point it was introduced, and now we have seen it being used, possibly for the first time, by an operator.

Before this, the ONLY way I have seen used to prevent extreme low rolling is to set the minimum coin size to something higher than the standard 0.01

Some MGS casinos set the old Tomb Raider slot to a min coin of 0.05 instead of the usual 0.01 - this increased the lowest possible all lines bet by a factor of 5, but at least players could still select a single coin to play. This change has even stripped away this option, by enforcing all 10 coins to be played per line.

 

[Mavin1]

Thanks Viinylweatherman for you input and it is sad to see the lower coin options dissapearing on games we have enjoyed with the wider range of coinage before.

I also wanted to add that in my previous post of withdrawing $160 from TG Rome casino, well surprise surpise, now they have sticky bonuses and I had never run into that with this group earlier on. So needless to say, my withdrawal was placed back into my account to "boost it", well of course that didn't happen.
So I guess now they are no different than any other online casio that does everything they can legally, to defeat the player, whether it be a high roller or low roller.
I had abstained for a few weeks from playing anywhere and going back to Top Game was definately an error I made.
I hate hoping that things will get better with some casinos, only to find they never will, especially since it was one I really enjoyed.

 

[LOOKAWAY]

Hi, when I logged in to a Vegas partner lounge casino today, I got the message of the day which said we now have changed the resolution of the casino software so you can play in wide-screen.

So basically yes, they are exterminating the low roller as you would need a wide-screen monitor to play full screen now.

I played the other day on a free chip at a microgaming casino and the quality had reduced by 80%, I would very rarely deposit at microgaming now.

I would buy a better telly, but which one could I hook up to my computer? And how???

 

[Wildfire7]

Hi, when I logged in to a Vegas partner lounge casino today, I got the message of the day which said we now have changed the resolution of the casino software so you can play in wide-screen.

So basically yes, they are exterminating the low roller as you would need a wide-screen monitor to play full screen now.

I played the other day on a free chip at a microgaming casino and the quality had reduced by 80%, I would very rarely deposit at microgaming now.

I would buy a better telly, but which one could I hook up to my computer? And how???

Thats not exterminating the low roller, that is just a sign of the time, progress.
Most of the budget laptops available are widescreen, and most of the higher end laptops are not, as you are paying for portability not the type of screen.

Standalone desktop widescreens are also very cheap to purchase these days. Most modern tv sets have all the ports you need to combine it to a monitor, and with most households now having several tv sets, using one for a monitor ought not to be a problem for most people.

The cost of the screen is no longer an issue for the consumer as widescreen has become so ubiquitous. Again that is down to consumer demand and progress.

Mike

 

[LOOKAWAY]

Thats not exterminating the low roller, that is just a sign of the time, progress.
Most of the budget laptops available are widescreen, and most of the higher end laptops are not, as you are paying for portability not the type of screen.

Standalone desktop widescreens are also very cheap to purchase these days. Most modern tv sets have all the ports you need to combine it to a monitor, and with most households now having several tv sets, using one for a monitor ought not to be a problem for most people.

The cost of the screen is no longer an issue for the consumer as widescreen has become so ubiquitous. Again that is down to consumer demand and progress.

Mike

Yes Mike, you have proved I know shit all about TV sets

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thats not exterminating the low roller, that is just a sign of the time, progress.
Most of the budget laptops available are widescreen, and most of the higher end laptops are not, as you are paying for portability not the type of screen.

Standalone desktop widescreens are also very cheap to purchase these days. Most modern tv sets have all the ports you need to combine it to a monitor, and with most households now having several tv sets, using one for a monitor ought not to be a problem for most people.

The cost of the screen is no longer an issue for the consumer as widescreen has become so ubiquitous. Again that is down to consumer demand and progress.

Mike

Stupid nonetheless, since the change was introduced by means of "ambush" to players. This has given them no time to prepare for the change, and the technical advice available from MGS is LAMENTABLE, and only addresses ONE of the MANY MANY issues that have cropped up with the new lobby.

I bought a widescreen monitor that goes all the way to 1920x1200 so screen resolution is NOT an issue, yet the new lobby SIGNIFICANTLY underperforms compared to the old. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with my screen settings, yet this is the ONLY technical advice on offer, and even this is no more than a link to the Microsoft website, and an article on how to adjust screen settings.

Players who find they CANNOT play with their current kit are firstly going to seek help and advice, and THEN maybe consider bringing forward plans to upgrade. In the meantime, they are NOT DEPOSITING at the MGS casinos whose upgrade has given them problems. They may be playing elsewhere, or not playing at all. This could induce a PERMANENT change in these players' loyalties, as well as a temporary reduction in their MGS deposits.

Casino Rewards have now announced they are NOT making the change, and this will offer an option for players who are having trouble elsewhere. Buy new kit, try to upgrade, look for technical advice that isn't there, or simply move their play to Casino Rewards and carry on as before. Provided Casino Rewards ensures these new players don't have a bad experience (such as locking their rewards account), this can only benefit them.

 

[1819]

low roller or high the one thing people seem to completely forget is the time they spend playing. slots are designed to make the house money. i think we all know that. the longer a player plays, the more they will lose period. any entry level casino host will tell you this. look at the recent 3d spin tourney going on here. look at the number of spins. people are not racking up those spin totals in brick and morter casinos. they are racking them up at home. hours upon hours = losses. say what you will about variance and luck and anything else you want to throw in. playing at home will eventually break your bankroll because there is no "going home." you cannot leave a winner since you will play an hour later. low rolling may allow one to play a little longer but what is a little longer when you are always in the casino/house? what does it matter? i hit the b&m casinos 3 or 4 times a month. i play for 24 hours and leave win or lose. at home i play until the deposit is gone. sometimes 3 or 4 days sometimes an hour but the casino always gets my money. that is the nature of the beast...

 

[silcnlayc]

I tried logging into one of my favorite 7Sultans in flash mode yesterday and deposited before trying out the games...went to load the game...nothing happened..I tried a few times and absolutely nothing happened..a blank screen kept coming up..

I went to chat and explained my problem and they said they were having "issues". I said great, you got my money and I cannot play...

They said it will take a while to fix these issues so ended up downloading the full version, which I didn't want to do...but it worked fine and I made a nice tidy withdrawal which serves them right for all the aggravation!.

.

 

[Pinababy69]

Great information

You're a whole new breed of spamming asshole ain't ya?

Useful information.

Great information.

I don't understand this post.

What was the phrase Simmo used? Oh yeah....spamming twat!!

 

[Scooter7]

Both MG and Crypto have produced new lobbies in the last couple of months. I know that the Crypto update to Intercasino ran a little slow for a few days and then they must have tweaked something since it's been fine for me from that point on. The MG situation appears to be worse than Inter's slight bit of 'chugging' as the games won't run at all for some people.

Technical issues aside, anyone care to compare the presentation and functionality of the two company's upgrades? I'm curious to know everyone's thoughts. For me, I think the menu structure for Inter (including an auto-complete game search feature) is really good progress and tops my list.

 

[nisosbar]

This is about the low roller, 20 cent to 75 cent players not finding the good play anymore and it is a fact despite the statistics of the above that the small player/low roller is being systematically exterminated from online casinos.

Have your thoughts changed about this at all?

 

[Mavin1]

Have your thoughts changed about this at all?

Hi Nisobar, I just wanted to acknowledge your question here and then I'll be done.

On this journey as a simple online player, I say player instead of gambler, because a true gambler would mostly be spending their time at a B&M, as the true hands on is part of the gambling and would use/consider online as a means of "entertaintment", I have had my ups and downs about online casinos that has taken my thoughts from one horizon to another.

I have tried to analyze why I would have been left with so many feelings of negatives and positives in what I hoped was a fair and just gaming venture and have not found any cut and dry answer that I could nail down to say, ah, that's what it is and be satisfied with it.

I have participated in many debates regarding every aspect that we the simple player can possibly come up with, but with questions and pnderance always remaining, I guess we have to come to a conclusion of accepting it the way it is, or move on.

My outlook now centers more around economic, politcal and international posturing that is far more reaching than we can possible understand immediately , but how far does it reach, I think in areas we never really thought it would, such as "entertainment", but some of us are seeing that maybe it is.

Looking at the decline of the dollar and how it has trikled into every portion of our life and our survival, I see it has trickled silently into areas that not only affect us here in the states but possibly worldwide.

Remember the days when gas was 75 cents a gallon, a loaf of bread 25 cents. Sure those days are long gone and will never return, but through force and persuassion, we have been made to accept it. Made to accept the ever declining amount of goods and services we used to get yet are paying more and more for less and less.

Gaming is the same, you would win a dollar and it would buy you more than it does now, that dollar meant something at one time. Maybe because of the monetary decline it has affected payouts, because these merchants are also not being able to maintain their overhead anymore than we can, but they have an advantage over us, in just the aspect of enticing us to give our dollars freely and joyfully.

There are those that come out ahead and those that come out even and those that wonder what the hell are they doing throwing money into what can feel like empty space. With things as uncertain, or on shakey ground as they are, I will never encourage anyone to play online, or make it sound like easy money, or this or that casino does give you a fair chance, because most likely it will not always and for those that are enticed, they may be spending their last bit of grocery money, or bill money hoping that the "fair" casinos will give them the return that others say they are getting.

I may have inadvertently insulted Audimanboro, which I appologize for, in the other thread with my lets not forget this and that, but although it is nice to know some things do work out good for some, it is equally a negative when my personal success post or something may have caused someone else to lose all they have, because they wanted what I found to be found by them as well and life just doesn't work that way.

So basically, when you see casinos falling, stealing, tightening up, stalling, siezing funds and so, look to the world climate and you will find the answer as to why the casinos that were like the 25 cent loaf of bread at one time is now the $150k shack you pay for today.
Simpler terms, how things are going with the little things in life are a good indicator of how things are in the bigger picture of the world.

 

[felicie]

Everything else in life goes up up up so why not casinos? Is that what you're saying Mavin because I think that is what is happening - a new all time high but still considered low.

(ps. glad you're still around Mavin and didn't let l bad apple spoil the whole bunch as they say. In my opinion, you're an asset to this forum, not a pain in the asset)

 

[Mavin1]

Everything else in life goes up up up so why not casinos? Is that what you're saying Mavin because I think that is what is happening - a new all time high but still considered low.


For you Felicie.

Consider the value of the dollar today, approx 4 cents on the dollar. Now consider this monetary decrease that has steadily continued, but places like casinos, don't decrease their overhead, profits, expenses, to accomodate the devalued money.

It is much more difficult for business to take steps backwards than it is to adjust it's operations, to maintain the same margins they have established over time, that is dependant on the profit increase for them and all connected with the casino/software operations.

Although some players still have their good days, overall, the majority of depositors are paying more and getting less return.

So no, we are not being exterminated, as I used to think, but are being forced to accept that casinos don't adjust with the public and our monetary weakness, we adjust to the casinos and their need to stay in expected profit margins.

We see and have seen businesses folding all the time, due to economic factors, but for some, throwing in the towel and calling it quits is the last resort.

 

[felicie]

Thanks Mavin

 

[Nifty29]

All the casinos have to do to deter high rollers is increase the minimum deposit to $100.

I don't see that happening at this stage, so personally I don't agree with you Mavin.

Actually, I think you will find that low rollers are just as important as any other player, as they all contribute to turnover - and the higher the turnover, the higher the casinos profit.

 

[ksech]

Actually, I think you will find that low rollers are just as important as any other player, as they all contribute to turnover - and the higher the turnover, the higher the casinos profit.

I have to agree with this statement. How many times has a player deposited and lost, then deposited again? And what is the ratio of high-rollers vs. low-rollers? I'm sure this is an inaccurate figure, but if you say there are 5 low rollers to every 1 high roller, and each low roller deposits at least once (possibly twice), then the low roller exceeds the high roller in monetary value.

I know when I was playing, at times I would get so frustrated with game play, that I may make 2 or 3 deposits at the same casino, trying play on different games. (Yes, I used to be one of the dreamchasers.) I think, with the decline of players, due to funding options, bannings for various reasons, or just plain sick and tired of losing money, the casinos are seeing less playtime. I believe it was Nate (?) who pretty much hit the nail on the head for me, when he stated that with less players playing, spins are being calculated at a lesser rate, hence more spins are required to reach a bonus round.

I'm not a programmer so I really don't have a clue how the slots are configured (written) for spin/win ratios. And as with any business, a business will pass on it's increase in expenses to it's patrons, so the business really doesn't lose.

 

[Mavin1]

All the casinos have to do to deter high rollers is increase the minimum deposit to $100.

I don't see that happening at this stage, so personally I don't agree with you Mavin.

Actually, I think you will find that low rollers are just as important as any other player, as they all contribute to turnover - and the higher the turnover, the higher the casinos profit.

As I was stating earlier to Nisobar when asked if I felt the same way, the answer was no. We are not being exterminated for being a low roller or high roller.

quote; So no, we are not being exterminated, as I used to think, but are being forced to accept that casinos don't adjust with the public and our monetary weakness, we adjust to the casinos and their need to stay in expected profit margins. To stay in business.

Just as with us, our mortgages don't go down, cost of groceries and gas doesn't go down, well their outgoing expenses doesn't go down either. They are not exempt from inflation anymore than we are.

I simply see it as our dollar is weak, buys less, pays less overhead and so on. So it takes more incoming money to pay what less did a year ago, so to speak. But with casinos, to keep the same value coming in, something has to change, hence the now 250+ spins before hitting bonus rounds on the average, decreased return in most of these bonus rounds. It's all over the forum regarding this issue with so many players voicing it.

A grocery store can put things on sale or reduce pricing when things are tough, but would/could a casino do the same?

So my thinking now has nothing to do with getting rid of players at all, but how to keep them in bad economic times.

I just feel that if maybe it's about economics and not ripping off the public, maybe there would be less complaints on how tight casinos are. Then the only complaints would be about bonuses and T&C's and unjust confiscations and such. But no more nit picking at casinos because we want them to play the way they did when the dollar was worth more.

Like I said, that loaf of bread will never cost 25 cents again, so we have to just get used to it. So for casinos to be able to continue to offer themselves to those who enjoy it, online gaming, we need to understand that it's economics and not rip off. Otherwise they would go bust, loosing their livelyhood and players would have to stick to places like Pogo. I see nothing wrong in this anymore and if players still enjoy playing online, I say great, because for the present we still have the choice to play or not as long as the online casinos survive bad economic times.

JMO