Document verification - POLL

[Papa-ya]

Thanks Nifty, I understand what you are pointing out and you do make sense. I would still rather see something more streamilined and simplified for the player and the casino finance department. We really don't need all that paperwork flying around as some have said, especially when we live in an age of automation, one touch/click button options and instant everything.

 

[Nifty29]

Great thread here, Chayton. I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.

Felicie and others have raised some good points. Just paraphrasing -- from the player's perspective, there's a worry that a casino will find a way to screw you and/or not make withdrawals easy even if you pre-verify; that a lot of times you try a casino for a few bucks and never come back, and you don't want your docs floating around; that you can't always trust who you're handing your docs to. From a casino's perspective, that it would turn away players; that it won't necessarily mean instant withdrawals; that it doesn't prove the player is who they say they are anyway.

The thing is, all of these arguments about verification are just as true when a player wins and wants to withdraw. The only really good argument for waiting on it is if you just go to a place to lose, and never plan to come back, so you don't want them to have your docs. That's a legitimate privacy concern. But if you're ready to give someone your credit card and your money, which you'd have to show your passport to ever get back anyway, then showing them a passport up front seems trivial.

I think the only reason it isn't done is because no one wants to be the first to do it. So I'm gonna be the first to do it.

No one's really gone into the benefits of it much, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about it because StrikeSapphire has always planned to pre-verify depositors when we launch. I'm not worried about letting this out because no casino now is going to implement it, we'll be the first and only for a long time. So here are the good things about pre-verification:

1. Yes, it does mean we can guarantee hassle-free, rapid withdrawals. To any payment method, regardless of how the deposit was made. Other parts of our platform play into making this possible, so it's not necessarily just the pre-verification that makes it happen, but it would be impossible without it. No one should have to wait longer to withdraw than it took them to deposit. Basic ethics, basic good business: Don't take someone's money easily and then make it hard for them to get it back. And casinos wonder why they lose most players after the first few months. Mm?

2. We don't want minors, Americans or terrorists playing on our site. I'm not trying to equate those three things, but they're all just as bad for us. We can't be complicit in breaking any laws. It's too easy for a casino to be turned into a money laundering vehicle. It's too easy for some scrawny vegetable in an IRS office in Kansas City (yes, I know you guys) to deposit and then make a federal case out of it. We obviously can't cash players out if we can't verify their identity, so why the hell should we let them deposit if we don't know if we can cash them out anyway? It's more risk for us.

3. Radically reduced fraud and chargeback rates mean we can shower more bonuses on legitimate players.

4. Players are more likely to come back if they know we're dealing with them above-board, which means they should never be surprised by untimely requests for information. Pre-verification means everyone puts their cards on the table right up front. It lets the player know we're not trying to pull any crap on them. If a player doesn't want to do it, we probably don't want them on our site. Not to sound harsh, but if they have a reason to deposit without ever showing the ID they'd need to withdraw, then there's something wrong.

Again, the caveat to that last one is the privacy argument that Felicie put out there, and I think it's really valid. This isn't something a roguish casino could do. And it's not something a big casino would do. But if players know you're secure, trustworthy and not about to share their info, then it's really in their interests and the house's interests to clear everything up front. Especially if you want to create a safe, enjoyable, community environment for everybody on the site.

I'm against loss of privacy, though. And I don't think you should trust everyone. That's why I came up with something original. When we launch, I do want to pre-verify. But I don't care about a passport, a utility bill, etc. if I believe who I'm talking to.

No, our verification strategy is really simple (and I think they should do this in airports too, instead of all the bullshit with the shoes and the belts): I just want to talk to the players. Say hello, make sure they're regular people, they know we're regular people, and meet them face to face. After that, I'm not worried.

And just to point out, real-world casinos do this all the time. When I turned 21 I got carded more times than I can count at every place on the strip. Even now, Harrahs in New Orleans routinely checks ALL IDs at the door, not just kids. There's facial recognition software on the dome cams, and behavior specialists walking the floor in plain clothes. Real world casinos don't wait until they have a problem...

So I hear people saying, "yeah, but there they can check your id in person"...well, give us about 4 minutes on video chat, and we'll be able to let you in for life

You're saying you can completely pre-verify players in 4 minutes, and your fool-proof strategy is to give them a call, and if they sound suspect you will then ask for docs? Sorry, but IMO you are deluding yourself.

I guess it might work for a small handful of players that you are looking to serve, but a large casino could not possibly do these things and remain competitive.

The fact is, the current system works for honest players. It takes a minute to send the docs and usually a day at most to have them approved either once or once in a while. I really don't see the issue, and in 13 years I've never had one.

The whole pre-verification issue arose from a case where two players shared the same payment method. Considering that method was NOT the method they originally used, there was no way that pre-verification was going to make any difference....unless you have to send a new faxback form before you use each new method, and who is going to bother with that?

Jstrike, I would love you to start a new thread with your last post and invite casino reps to comment (better check with max too), as I think it would be very interesting to know why other casinos don't do it.

 

[chayton]

Jstrike, I would love you to start a new thread with your last post and invite casino reps to comment (better check with max too), as I think it would be very interesting to know why other casinos don't do it.

Second that.

In this thread we're just bouncing ideas around, without knowing what's involved from the casino end of things we're really just wishful thinking. I starting this just to see what players want, I'm actually really surprised that the numbers are leaning toward preverification, I was expecting the opposite!

So it's great to have some input from a (future ) operator. Although with larger numbers of players obviously there would be more time, more stuff involved and it would be nice to hear from some of the larger operators.

There's got to be a better way than now...c'mon, faxing your credit cards? Running out to Kinko's to scan your driver's license? It seems so 80s.... And Nifty's pointed out the flaws in each casino doing preverification on their own. So what's left?

Whoever said earlier about being verified once for all MGs, once for all RTGs - IMO that's the way it should be done. After all, if the casinos can keep a database of negative value or fraudulent players, how hard would it be to keep a database of verified players? First account you open with MG you send your docs, you get verified - the next account you open, they check on the list, "Well you're good to go - come and spend some money." Could it ever happen? Probably not...

 

[P.V.]

My Top 10 list:

1. Email/fax isn't secure.

2. Why upload your personal info. to numerous servers when one can handle it.

3. There's always going to be a hard doc requests for the sake of minors & fraud.

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4. Video chat is the future of verification, not.

5. No way a third party is going to verify your doc's other than the site operator of the web site, aka OC's.

6. It's in the T & C', chill.

7. Doesn't matter if they never asked before they're asking now.

8. New regulation might change ID verification standards, not sure.

9. Players hopefully will prevail and ask for better methods.

10. Good thread Chayton.

 

[zaaaaabaaaaam]

Totally agree Chayton.

In Nifty's post he pointed out also that it would be to time consuming to do the verification before allowing play, but I have to dissagree. When I think about the ongoing processing that is constantly going on anyways, it would be the same amount of verifying and same man power hours whether it's done prior to playing or upon withdrawal and every player will likely withdraw at least once.

As was pointed out by another poster, doing this verification upon withdrawal slows the withdrawal process down.

Verification, (which I still think is outdated nonsense), during a withdrawal is double tasking the finance department of the casinos, getting all docs, readable and verified and then working on the processing of the payment.

Also, how many players are asked to resubmit their docs again and again, because they aren't readable, or missed something, or wasn't received. We have read posts here where this has been an ongoing issue and I would imagine it's a bigger problem than we know.

I'd disagree with you on this one. If I only speak for myself, I have deposited at 20+ casinos and only cashed out on 4. 2 of these 4 casinos requested docs upon cashout request. In average I am pretty sure about 75-80% of the customers never do a cashout as one-time depositors conclude the most of any casinos customer base.

Personally I'd be furious if i would need to send docs to all casinos prior to even start playing. It would be a waste of the casino's time and resources and most importantly it would be a big waste of MY precious time!

 

[zaaaaabaaaaam]

Obviously I do agree that the verification method not just seems but really is old school by now. There should def be some more practical solution such as e-verification which many banks / gov have implemented to verify the identity of customers/citizens. But these solutions are pretty narrow at this stage. For instance I need to have a little box, CC, cable and a software installed on my computer where i type in my credentials to verify my identity.

 

[chayton]

8. New regulation might change ID verification standards, not sure.

Things may be going that way, it seems to me that since the developments in the US I've seen more complaints about docs than before, people having to resend, things aren't clear enough, need to send supplemental docs or send docs over and over. Like the whole verification process is now stricter or more comprehensive. Has anyone noticed?

Or does it just seem like it because I've been thinking about it?
Jim Carrey in 23..."I just saw the number 12, OMG the last number is 2 and if you add 1+2 it's 3...it's the number 23!!!! arrrrgh!! AND there's 24 hours in the day and I smoked ONE big bowl today and that's 24 minus 1 - EEK again the number 23!!!"
(sorry for the derail but thanks for letting me complain about that movie )

 

[Nifty29]

Verification will be quite simple when US regulation begins.

All players will need to supply their SSN.

On the subject, I wonder if these regulated casinos will allow international players? I played at worldwinner for a while (skill games) and they withheld 30% of winnings. I stopped when a lawyer told me I couldn't claim it back unless I was Canadian due to treaty.

 

[jstrike]

I'd like to start a separate thread for reps but I'm not sure if I should, or where -- or if reps really want to talk about it (probably not). In defense of our video chat concept, like Nifty pointed out, it would only ever work for a small "semi-private" club. And it depends what your goals are. Ours are to prevent double accounts, prevent Americans, deter fraudsters and prevent anyone who tries fraud from coming back and doing it again. No system is going to be perfect. But ours is pretty good, and it can be done by a trained rep in 4-5 minutes. Since we're only planning on taking 100 signups or so per month, it's not such a manpower issue. Plus it gives new players a chance to ask us questions and get to know us before they trust us with their hard-earned cash. As a fallback, we're going to offer the old "fax ID" method too, which should take about a day to clear.

 

[Papa-ya]

I'd disagree with you on this one. If I only speak for myself, I have deposited at 20+ casinos and only cashed out on 4. 2 of these 4 casinos requested docs upon cashout request. In average I am pretty sure about 75-80% of the customers never do a cashout as one-time depositors conclude the most of any casinos customer base.

Personally I'd be furious if i would need to send docs to all casinos prior to even start playing. It would be a waste of the casino's time and resources and most importantly it would be a big waste of MY precious time!

See, I agree with you as well when thinking of document verification, it is pointless to have to do it for every casino just to play and a waste of time.

However, if this archaic way of doing things is to continue, Chaytons idea would be the better way to go.
For instance RTG headquarters should keep this information and all RTG casinos could verify it through them. Sent one time, verified a 100, so to speak.

An individual player at this point can decide to send their documents in early, as we all know it is pretty much the same thing they always want when it gets down to a withdrawal.

I have on occasion had some casinos that never seem to know your email address when it comes to asking you for docs, so your cashout will sit there pending until they throw it back into your player account.

Then the player gets all mad saying they never emailed me and asked for anything, but it's standard no matter where you play, so just get it done.

So again, Chaytons idea of a central data base would be the simplest.

But, as some have mentioned, some MG's and I have experienced this myself, never requested docs, this tells me they really aren't as necessary as they would like us to believe, if some casinos can operate without your entire history then what are the ones doing wrong that can't?

 

[chayton]

I'd like to start a separate thread for reps but I'm not sure if I should, or where.

PM Max or Bryan and see?

Chaytons idea of a central data base

I'd love to take the credit for a great idea, but it wasn't actually mine, it was LHofsdals's idea!

You'd have to update the central database if you move or change your name or anything, and since most casinos ask for a utility bill of less than 3 months old, maybe you'd have to update that. But you'd only have to do it at one place instead of all the casinos you play at.

The only problem being that if there was a cental database then all the rogue operators would also have access to it. Mind you that would be easily sorted by doing something like...you sign up once and are verified, and you're given a encrypted 12 digit pin number or password. When you sign up at another casino and you make a withdrawal or maybe even if you want to do it at sign up, you give that casino the pin number. Or a combination of a pin and a password. That way only the casinos that you want to have your data can find your info in the database...?

 

[jstrike]

I like the central DB idea a lot...I mean, maybe it could be something that wasn't required, but it's like those frequent flyer programs that let you get past security faster? Then casinos can subscribe to it if they want to, and expedite the people who show up on the VIP / trusted list...

 

[Nifty29]

The main problem with a database would be the "other" uses it could have.

The information would be worth big money to budding casino operators, and could you really trust RTG with it given they won't even act against their own dodgy licencees nor assist players in getting paid?

Good idea on the surface, but not sure I would be keen. Another problem may be if hackers get hold of your PIN etc...they could signup anywhere and you wouldn't know.

It's also another situation of manpower and cost. RTG etc aren't going to do this for free and it would be a huge job maintaining such a huge database....and the players will end up absorbing the cost.

 

[jstrike]

Actualllllly....

and I don't know why I'm writing this here because someone's gonna steal it. But I bet you could make more money (and be legal in the US) by running a site that managed a central database like that, than from running a whole bunch of casinos. And it would be easy. Basically every player goes on and verifies once with this site, keeping their verification up to date when it's requested, and the site gives them a secret token to prove their identity. Change the token once a month. Any site that wants to use it as their ID method, just request the latest token from the player when they withdraw. It would be really easy for everybody.

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

 

[jstrike]

The main problem with a database would be the "other" uses it could have.

The regularly-changing-token concept, and having it run by an independent party, gets around all possible misuse. RTG would have to trust that we had vetted the player, based on the player providing the most recent token. They'd never have access to the database itself.

 

[chayton]

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

If I win the lotto this weekend I'll let you know.

 

[felicie]

I'd like to start a separate thread for reps but I'm not sure if I should, or where -- or if reps really want to talk about it (probably not). In defense of our video chat concept, like Nifty pointed out, it would only ever work for a small "semi-private" club. And it depends what your goals are. Ours are to prevent double accounts, prevent Americans, deter fraudsters and prevent anyone who tries fraud from coming back and doing it again. No system is going to be perfect. But ours is pretty good, and it can be done by a trained rep in 4-5 minutes. Since we're only planning on taking 100 signups or so per month, it's not such a manpower issue. Plus it gives new players a chance to ask us questions and get to know us before they trust us with their hard-earned cash. As a fallback, we're going to offer the old "fax ID" method too, which should take about a day to clear.

I hope you do get there jstrike because you seem to be a real stand up guy/girl and I'd be glad to play at your casino.
Real good thread Chayton thanks

 

[H1_Roller]

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

How much do you need? Serious question.

EDIT - I mean how much would it cost to write such a site?

 

[all4greed]

No brainer - docs at withdrawal only.

Just because you get approved upfront doesn't mean you will get paid. The crap casinos can and will always come up with some excuse if they don't want to pay.

 

[greasemonkey]

No brainer - docs at withdrawal only.

Just because you get approved upfront doesn't mean you will get paid. The crap casinos can and will always come up with some excuse if they don't want to pay.

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

 

[Nifty29]

The regularly-changing-token concept, and having it run by an independent party, gets around all possible misuse. RTG would have to trust that we had vetted the player, based on the player providing the most recent token. They'd never have access to the database itself.

Well here is another problem.

I don't want to submit my ID etc to a 3rd party operation that isn't related to the casino I'm playing at, and just because there is a token system doesn't stop this 3rd party from selling my details to the highest bidder. At least with a per-casino approach I always know how I'm dealing with.

As all4greed says, pre-verification does NOT automatically mean you will be paid. We need to consider things like bonus requirements etc and the fact that rogues will find another reason anyway. It is unreasonable to expect that operators are just going to let cashouts through without scrutiny of some kind.

It all comes back to the fact that honest operators will pay honest players every time anyway, so it's difficult for me to see the need to change anything. If I have to send ID every so often, then so be it. I haven't been ripped off in 13 years and I know of many others in the same boat, because I follow the rules and send docs when they are requested.

Casinos will have to pay a 3rd party for the service also, and they will have to pass this on to the player.

 

[P.V.]

Actualllllly....

and I don't know why I'm writing this here because someone's gonna steal it. But I bet you could make more money (and be legal in the US) by running a site that managed a central database like that, than from running a whole bunch of casinos. And it would be easy. Basically every player goes on and verifies once with this site, keeping their verification up to date when it's requested, and the site gives them a secret token to prove their identity. Change the token once a month. Any site that wants to use it as their ID method, just request the latest token from the player when they withdraw. It would be really easy for everybody.

If anybody wants to finance me writing this site, btw, I could use a few bucks right now and we can run it together

I wouldn't spend too much time and money. It's been difficult enough just trying to get OC's onboard to use a secure site/system for players who don't like emailing and faxing their doc's in. And the OC's still approve or deny their own players, so I doubt they would ever want a 3rd party approving their players hard docs for them as you're suggesting.

I agree with Nifty in the fact that OC's aren't going want anyone else to see their customer base which is highly understandable.

I also agree with Nifty that a complete preapproval system would be time consuming and overwhelming to the operator. I still think the option of doc. preapproval should be allowed for those who prefer this.

I have an interest in this area, so being upfront here, OC's should loosen up somewhat and allow players to share this info in a more secure environment if players want too.

Keyword: If players want too.

Nifty also points out if a 3rd. party handles this it would would be costly for the OC's, valid point!

I'm not understanding why, if a OC requests a copy of a passport etc., why must it be emailed or faxed or mailed only? Why would they care how it's sent & received as long as it's provided?

I never give out my personal information whether its ID, passport, CC scans, banking info. or whatever unless it's in person or https encrypted on the internet.

So my question tonight to everyone following this thread is this. I was thinking of adding an approved doc. counter on each players profile, registering how many times their docs had been approved by different gaming sites. Kind of like the rep power here on CM, the more your docs have been approved, the higher your profile rating.

Waste of time & money or a good idea?

 

[greasemonkey]

Well here is another problem.

I don't want to submit my ID etc to a 3rd party operation that isn't related to the casino I'm playing at, and just because there is a token system doesn't stop this 3rd party from selling my details to the highest bidder. At least with a per-casino approach I always know how I'm dealing with.

As all4greed says, pre-verification does NOT automatically mean you will be paid. We need to consider things like bonus requirements etc and the fact that rogues will find another reason anyway. It is unreasonable to expect that operators are just going to let cashouts through without scrutiny of some kind.

It all comes back to the fact that honest operators will pay honest players every time anyway, so it's difficult for me to see the need to change anything. If I have to send ID every so often, then so be it. I haven't been ripped off in 13 years and I know of many others in the same boat, because I follow the rules and send docs when they are requested.

Casinos will have to pay a 3rd party for the service also, and they will have to pass this on to the player.

Would you be interested in doing this if it was somebody that you "knew" and trusted? I am referring to Bryan. Not saying he would, but if he did add this process to his business wouldn't you feel safe with casinos having to get the verification or no verification from HERE? That would be an ideal situation IMO.

 

[all4greed]

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

I get what you are saying. I've never had a payment problem because of rejected FBF and other docs. Maybe I'm one of the luckier ones. For me, it's just slow payments with varying reasons/excuses.

One strong reason I would not give my ID to every casino upfront is security. I posted in some other thread that my ID, credit card, casino login, etc. was posted on the web years ago by a disgruntled casino employee along with hundreds (if not more) other players. With the number of casinos that went out over the years or that turned to crap, it's scary enough to think where my information is stored or who has access to it.

Yes, I choose that risk by playing online. But I prefer that the less people that have my info with scanned images the better.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, but the crap of "cant read docs" ... "send in diff. format, can't open"... need a different utility, we don't accept this one"... "cashier must not have received, send again".... We need a diff. ID. This one looks photoshopped"...."try sending them to this address"... "We don't accept this ID"... blah, blah, blah would ALL be done away with. BECAUSE they would be anxious to get you to deposit and not play these games with you up front. When you defer to cashout time then they will/do take as long as they want. Or ignore you.
it makes no sense to give them this power. If they want to verify docs then do it before I play. Not when it is in their best interest to not accept them or act on them.

THIS is why we have this argument at all. If verification at withdrawal was a simple and smooth process, players would be happy.

The problem now is that in many cases, a simple procedure turns into a farce because the casino is internally disorganised, and this gives the impression that the MAIN function of this procedure is to stall the payment.

Some of the cock-ups beggar belief!! We are told to email the documents, we prepare them in the INTERNATIONAL STANDARD format requested, usually JPEG, and they come back with "can't open them". This is THEIR fault for not using the correct application at their end, yet they blame the PLAYER for sending an "unusable file".

Other times, the email address used to receive documents is set up to reject attachments to inbound emails, thus the documents are never received. Again this is THEIR fault, yet somehow it becomes the PLAYER'S fault - as though we had a choice other than the email the documents as requested.

The final screw-up is where at first they confirm receipt, and then later claim they never received the documents. This shows how incredibly lax their internal procedures are for handling sensitive personal information, particularly when passed between different departments.

Even when nothing has gone wrong, players STILL get all the BS excuses of "too dark", "too light", "blurred", etc. These do NOTHING to help players understand what might have gone wrong, and so they simply produce the documents again using the same method as before, only to have the same rejection excuses time and time again. From the player's end, they can see NOTHING wrong with the files when using an image viewing application, so believe that there is nothing wrong with them at all, and that the whole charade is yet another stalling exercise by the casino.

Even when fully verified, some casinos STILL claim it takes "xx business days" of sitting in "pending" before a withdrawal can be paid, yet there is NOTHING more to be done in the way of verification, and even a check that terms have not been breached should not take more than a few minutes in most cases as it can be done by a software tool in the "back end" application.

The main function of the pending period is to stall the payment, and since casinos use pending periods mainly to keep cash up their end for as long as possible, why should we believe that they do NOT have deliberate built in delays to the verification process to add a few extra days to the holding period for new players, and those selected for reverification.