cyprean VS CBMsport.com

[cyprean]

Dear Client,

Tomorrow our Casino Department will let you withdraw your funds.
We apologize for any inconvenience.

After getting the above email I try to withdraw but for some reason their system does not let me and I contact them. The next day my balance is 0, and I ask what is going on, and they say my balance has expired. The bonus funds there apparently expire in 2 days, but once I was told I could withdraw, this did not cross my mind.


Now after trying to solve the issue with them thru email for 3 or so days ending multiple emails, they would only credit my account 15% back of the original withdrawable balance.


I find the situation unacceptable and hope it gets resolved.

 

[cyprean]

It is kind of ironic that the affiliate manager made me a VIP player AFTER removing the winnings from my account.

It's like "You know, we promised you the money, and we are in the wrong, but we dont want to pay winnings, but you can deposit again"

 

[gpitileac]

It is kind of ironic that the affiliate manager made me a VIP player AFTER removing the winnings from my account.

It's like "You know, we promised you the money, and we are in the wrong, but we dont want to pay winnings, but you can deposit again"

Dear Player , after you received the e-mail mentioning that "Tomorrow morning you can withdraw you funds" which it was a big misscomunication between our departments , i have e-mailed you the following day ( after 13hours more exact ) that you cannot withdraw until you finish your wagering Requirements .

Also we have advised you with the remaining wager pointing out as well that the bonus will expire if you don't continue wagering . Therefore , the bonus expired 3rd day Wednesday not 2nd day Tuesday , due to T&C of the bonus which had a validity of 2 Days . After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire .


Also we never told you to deposit again , As a sign of good will we offered to give you another chance giving you 500 E + which after transferring to casino you will have a 200% Bonus respective 1.500 E to play and fulfill the wagering. ( Although you have been repeatably threatening us with submitting a complaint and adding our Casino to the Rogue Section in CasinoMeister.

The amount that you had in your account still had around 20.000 E left to be wagered , thing that we constantly mentioning in our conversation true e-mail .


I will contact a CasinoMeister Representative and i will forward him all the conversations between our Department and hereby player .

Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[The Viking]

Although you have been repeatably threatening us with submitting a complaint and adding our Casino to the Rogue Section in CasinoMeister.

Do players really go that low, to threat casinos in that way

 

[cyprean]

Dear Player , after you received the e-mail mentioning that "Tomorrow morning you can withdraw you funds" which it was a big misscomunication between our departments , i have e-mailed you the following day ( after 13hours more exact ) that you cannot withdraw until you finish your wagering Requirements .

Also we have advised you with the remaining wager pointing out as well that the bonus will expire if you don't continue wagering . Therefore , the bonus expired 3rd day Wednesday not 2nd day Tuesday , due to T&C of the bonus which had a validity of 2 Days . After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire .


Also we never told you to deposit again , As a sign of good will we offered to give you another chance giving you 500 E + which after transferring to casino you will have a 200% Bonus respective 1.500 E to play and fulfill the wagering. ( Although you have been repeatably threatening us with submitting a complaint and adding our Casino to the Rogue Section in CasinoMeister.

The amount that you had in your account still had around 20.000 E left to be wagered , thing that we constantly mentioning in our conversation true e-mail .


I will contact a CasinoMeister Representative and i will forward him all the conversations between our Department and hereby player .

Regards

Gabi Pitileac

Dear Gabi


Your support clearly told me that I could withdraw. You did not tell me that you would take my winnings away at any point until it happened, nor that they will expire. Having a policy where you confiscate funds after 2 days is not something that a reliable casino would do, especially after your support said I will get paid. You are not telling the truth when you write "After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire ." - you did not warn me about this, and nevertheless you should never do this as you have said that you will already pay me.

Afterwards as an act of good faith I offered you to return the original funds and wager more. You did not, but added only a fraction of my original balance.

Only after I said that your casinos tricks are unacceptable and other players need to be warned, you started giving somewhat relevant replies. I never said that I could add you to the rogue list, and that would be absurd, I dont make those judgements. I can only tell what happened, and players can make their own judgement.

Hiding relevant T&C on your bonus page, and then having roguish 2 day balance confiscation rules, which work quite well as your support takes time before answering to question, I wonder how many balances have been confiscated because players need to contact your support to get relevant information, and it can easily take 2 days before this information is fully received via back-and-forth e-mails.

However, once I was told I was going to get paid, I wasnt expected that your bonus expiry rule would remove all my winnings, which were supposedly be cleared and safe. If you are able to return my original balance so that I can wager more, I will consider the issue settled. Making me a VIP and giving me fancy reloads after confiscating my funds isnt something that makes me happy.

 

[Cleveland]

I find the situation unacceptable and hope it gets resolved.

Considering you've been a member since 2006 I hope you know the proper way to go about handling this. I see the rep has now responded to you here as well.

This conversation that has now started should either be in PMs, or the process of a PAB should be started, preferably at the conclusion of those PMs.

The rep is new but as a rep should know the rules, You however as a long standing member have no excuse.

 

[cyprean]

Considering you've been a member since 2006 I hope you know the proper way to go about handling this. I see the rep has now responded to you here as well.

This conversation that has now started should either be in PMs, or the process of a PAB should be started, preferably at the conclusion of those PMs.

The rep is new but as a rep should know the rules, You however as a long standing member have no excuse.

I havent been active here a while so my apologizies if I have overlooked something. In any case, every player who considers playing at CBMSport should know that the casino has the 2 day confiscation rule, and that should be publicly discussed here, even if this case gets handled thru PMs.

Gpitileac, the rep here, seems to be the same person who reversed the supports decision of me getting paid and caused my funds to get removed. I have been exchanging emails with him earlier, with no results. That is why I dont see sending a PM here doing a whole lot of much. I am looking into submitting a PaB.

 

[gpitileac]

Dear Gabi


Your support clearly told me that I could withdraw. You did not tell me that you would take my winnings away at any point until it happened, nor that they will expire. Having a policy where you confiscate funds after 2 days is not something that a reliable casino would do, especially after your support said I will get paid. You are not telling the truth when you write "After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire ." - you did not warn me about this, and nevertheless you should never do this as you have said that you will already pay me.

Afterwards as an act of good faith I offered you to return the original funds and wager more. You did not, but added only a fraction of my original balance.

Only after I said that your casinos tricks are unacceptable and other players need to be warned, you started giving somewhat relevant replies. I never said that I could add you to the rogue list, and that would be absurd, I dont make those judgements. I can only tell what happened, and players can make their own judgement.

Hiding relevant T&C on your bonus page, and then having roguish 2 day balance confiscation rules, which work quite well as your support takes time before answering to question, I wonder how many balances have been confiscated because players need to contact your support to get relevant information, and it can easily take 2 days before this information is fully received via back-and-forth e-mails.

However, once I was told I was going to get paid, I wasnt expected that your bonus expiry rule would remove all my winnings, which were supposedly be cleared and safe. If you are able to return my original balance so that I can wager more, I will consider the issue settled. Making me a VIP and giving me fancy reloads after confiscating my funds isnt something that makes me happy.

Good Morning Everyone ,

Dear player , When you sign up in a casino you are obliged to read the T&C "which where under the Section Help>Rules>Promotions & Bonuses section . And Also each bonus has a Validity time , which in your case it was of 2 DAYS .

We did not CONFISCATE any winnings the bonus EXPIRED which is totally different , on each website/casino/forum etc , where there is a promotion , you will always see " Bonus money Validity " .

The e-mail that you received informing you that in the morning your funds will be released as i mentioned it was a miss communication between our departments ( and we repeatedly admitted and apologized for it ) . When i got in the morning at the office i started investigated , and what casino is releasing the funds of a player without finishing the Wager Requirements . Monday , after sending e-mails to our support , you where informed that playing "Table Games - 100h Jack's or better " will not contribute the same as Slots , also you received the list with the games contribution factors therefore you knew what games you can play to fulfill the wagering requirements.


Again , Regarding the "bonus expiry rule" , please note this is not a RULE , it's the way the campaign is set up . Once set up we cannot alter the promotion .

Dear player you have exchanged several e-mails with our support on Monday , and starting from Tuesday till yesterday even more altough the threatening phrases where always in your e-mails .

PS. You cannot say that a casino confiscated your money when :
- The "money " where actually BONUS MONEY which had some requirements to fulfill in this case you had 3.338 Euro with remaining wager around 20.000 E .
- When you register with a Casino and deposit 10 Euro or in your case 500 E , it's in your interest to READ the T&C of the CASINO & The promotions that you aim to receive .
- The T&C where not Hidden , A simple click on HELP > GENERAL RULES > PROMOTIONS& BONUSES ( please be advised each casino has it's own layout , but one thing stays the same , and that is THE RULES SECTION .
- Regarding to " Only after I said that your casinos tricks are unacceptable and other players need to be warned, you started giving somewhat relevant replies. I never said that I could add you to the rogue list, and that would be absurd, I dont make those judgements. I can only tell what happened, and players can make their own judgement. " Please be advised that we have the e-mails and we will give it to the CasinoMeister Representatives and you did send us those e-mails . You had more than 13h to continue and playing but you still kept on sending us e-mails and accusing us of stealing your funds although you knew that the games you where playing ( and most of the players know that such high risk table games have a different or even 0 contribution factor to the wager ) .

With Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[smokeeye]

Maybe I have overlooked something, but why do you share numbers of balance/deposit(s)?

 

[gpitileac]

Maybe I have overlooked something, but why do you share numbers of balance/deposit(s)?

Hi ,

Just to make it clear , so everybody who reads the post knows and makes their own idea about this post . I don't somebody likes to be accused of stealing and other serious accusations especially when a players accuses us of stealing his funds " which we are talking about BONUS MONEY that expired because the player didn't finished his wagering " .

PS. I am now in contact with CasinoMeister and i will provide him with all e-mails , so that the Webmaster/Administrators of this forum can make their own decision .



Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[cyprean]

Hi ,

Just to make it clear , so everybody who reads the post knows and makes their own idea about this post . I don't somebody likes to be accused of stealing and other serious accusations especially when a players accuses us of stealing his funds " which we are talking about BONUS MONEY that expired because the player didn't finished his wagering " .

PS. I am now in contact with CasinoMeister and i will provide him with all e-mails , so that the Webmaster/Administrators of this forum can make their own decision .



Regards

Gabi Pitileac

Dear Gabi

I never wrote the "s"-word here in the public forum. I used the term "remove".

In personal and private discussion I might have used other terms, but that shouldnt really change the core issue at all. I apologize if you got offended by my emails. I was promised to be paid, then my whole balance was removed. I was offered a fraction of my balance back, but I would prefer if I get my original balance back and wager whatever reasonable amount.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi ,

Just to make it clear , so everybody who reads the post knows and makes their own idea about this post . I don't somebody likes to be accused of stealing and other serious accusations especially when a players accuses us of stealing his funds " which we are talking about BONUS MONEY that expired because the player didn't finished his wagering " .

PS. I am now in contact with CasinoMeister and i will provide him with all e-mails , so that the Webmaster/Administrators of this forum can make their own decision .



Regards

Gabi Pitileac

All very well, but YOU (or another employee of the company) made a mistake, not the player. It is therefore the casino that should "eat" the consequences of said mistake, and it will be a harsh lesson in making sure sloppy CS does not get tolerated by management.

The real issue is that after the wrong information was given, the player had a mere 13 hours to figure out it was wrong, which is a very short timescale indeed when it isn't just a case of playing, but one of resolving an issue via email.

I see many cases where casinos show zero tolerance of genuine mistakes made by players, so casinos shouldn't expect more lenient treatment from players.

The 2 days should be reset to start from the time the player discovered that a mistake had been made and corrected by the casino. It could be taken to start from when the player read the email apologising for the mistake and giving the correct information.

Having such 2 day promos is an accident waiting to happen, as there is so little room for mistakes and miscommunications to be corrected.

It is such an important factor in this case as this isn't merely a 2 day window for claiming a bonus, which is the most common method of running promotions, but it has to be claimed, wagered, and withdrawn within 48 hours.

It is certainly worth warning players of this atypical rule structure in this casino's offers, so that they not only look for the expiry date, but understands that it isn't just a claim window, but a completion of WR window.

This doesn't look like it was JUST an expiry of a bonus either, more a removal of the entire balance, including a significant chunk of winnings. This is guaranteed to go down like the proverbial lead balloon with a player to whom the amount lost is a significant chunk, and making them VIP by way of compensation could actually backfire, as it did in this case.

The worst I have seen in terms of completing a WR is 7 days (until now), and I think this is pretty tight. The shortest claim window I have seen is up to midnight on the same day, but actual wagering could be done the next day.

 

[gpitileac]

All very well, but YOU (or another employee of the company) made a mistake, not the player. It is therefore the casino that should "eat" the consequences of said mistake, and it will be a harsh lesson in making sure sloppy CS does not get tolerated by management.

The real issue is that after the wrong information was given, the player had a mere 13 hours to figure out it was wrong, which is a very short timescale indeed when it isn't just a case of playing, but one of resolving an issue via email.

I see many cases where casinos show zero tolerance of genuine mistakes made by players, so casinos shouldn't expect more lenient treatment from players.

The 2 days should be reset to start from the time the player discovered that a mistake had been made and corrected by the casino. It could be taken to start from when the player read the email apologising for the mistake and giving the correct information.

Having such 2 day promos is an accident waiting to happen, as there is so little room for mistakes and miscommunications to be corrected.

It is such an important factor in this case as this isn't merely a 2 day window for claiming a bonus, which is the most common method of running promotions, but it has to be claimed, wagered, and withdrawn within 48 hours.

It is certainly worth warning players of this atypical rule structure in this casino's offers, so that they not only look for the expiry date, but understands that it isn't just a claim window, but a completion of WR window.

This doesn't look like it was JUST an expiry of a bonus either, more a removal of the entire balance, including a significant chunk of winnings. This is guaranteed to go down like the proverbial lead balloon with a player to whom the amount lost is a significant chunk, and making them VIP by way of compensation could actually backfire, as it did in this case.

The worst I have seen in terms of completing a WR is 7 days (until now), and I think this is pretty tight. The shortest claim window I have seen is up to midnight on the same day, but actual wagering could be done the next day.

Hi ,

I appreciate your comments we take it as a constructive one .

We/The casino admitted that the mistake was ours due to the communication between our departments .

The Promos are not 2 DAYS , the MONEY validity is 2 days . for that specific welcome bonus that the player received .

i Have sent all the e-mails to CasinoMeister , to have a look .

The phrase : " This doesn't look like it was JUST an expiry of a bonus either, more a removal of the entire balance, including a significant chunk of winnings. This is guaranteed to go down like the proverbial lead balloon with a player to whom the amount lost is a significant chunk, and making them VIP by way of compensation could actually backfire, as it did in this case. "

The player received a copy from our blackened where he saw ( when the bonus was received , how much he wagered , and when it expired ) .


We offered the player his deposit money + a 200% deposit bonus , although his initial welcome bonus was of 100% . We offered him to start over and play . Unfortunately i cannot show to everyone our conversation , for sure after your opinions will be divided / changed .

Our Support team is available 7days/week 16h / day . The last e-mail sent to the player was Monday Evening around 22:00 , The second day in the morning i have replied to the player informing him that there was a mistake from our end a miss communication between our departments and informed the user to continue playing to fulfill the wager . Also pointing out the games where he will have 100% contribution factor , hereafter achieving faster the wagering requirements.

I will wait for CasinoMeister to take a look over the e-mails and reply .

PS. -The bonus expired
-We offered to give the deposit money +200% deposit bonus and start over
- Regarding the 2Days validity , each casino has it's right to create the campaigns as they consider attractive as long as they make the promotions t&c visible ( which in this case the wager requirements among with the validity of the bonus where visible ) .
- When a player signs up with a Casino it's in their interest to Read the T&C and RULES of the casino .


Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[Nifty29]

After getting the above email I try to withdraw but for some reason their system does not let me and I contact them. The next day my balance is 0, and I ask what is going on, and they say my balance has expired. The bonus funds there apparently expire in 2 days, but once I was told I could withdraw, this did not cross my mind.


Now after trying to solve the issue with them thru email for 3 or so days ending multiple emails, they would only credit my account 15% back of the original withdrawable balance.


I find the situation unacceptable and hope it gets resolved.

Why would you deposit at a casino with such rules in the first place?

Sounds like someone didn't read the terms before playing, which is asking for trouble.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Get 100% up to 500 Euro bonus + 10 Free Spins in our latest Slot game Reel Rush.


T&C of the First Deposit Bonus:


• Bonus program is valid between 24/6/13 08:00 CET and 31/7/13 11:59 CET
• Percentage of transfer (100%); Bonus cap: EUR 500.00; Minimum deposit limit: EUR 10.00
• Cash-in wagering Req.: 45
• Bonus Money Validity: 2 days
• The exclusive 10 Free Spins in our latest Slot game Reel Rush will be added the day after You make Your deposit (for example, deposit today and the Free Spins will be active tomorrow after 14:00 CET)

It's not made easy to navigate to the relevant terms and conditions. It took me a while and a few false leads just to find this, and it's hardly a proper set of terms and conditions for a sign up offer.

There is a link to other terms, but this just dumps you to a general page that does not give the kind of information a player needs to evaluate before making a deposit.

Where are terms such as allowed games, max bet limits, a definitive meaning of the phrase "Bonus Money Validity: 2 days", and how it is implemented.

There is so little in the terms that players are reliant on swift and ACCURATE responses from CS. There is also little with which to cross check a response from CS for accuracy.

So, after voiding over €3000, the casino thought the player would be satisfied by getting their deposit returned and double the original bonus added, plus VIP status, as compensation for the cock up made by the casino.

It's no wonder the player didn't just meekly accept this, and any operator who thinks such an offer would defuse such an issue needs their head examined.

It seems the full nature of this offer is not made available to players until they have signed up and made their deposit, which is the kind of thing that a rogue casino would do, it's a form of bait & switch.

From what I can read, ALL games are eligible, and all at 100% weighting, as there is nothing stated to the contrary.

It is starting to look like the OP DID actually think they had met the WR based on the incomplete information shown allowing the assumption that all games count 100%, so thought nothing amiss when they later received the email that they would get paid the next day.

It then turns out that a "bait & switch" begins, with the player told they have more to wager, and that in fact the games they played were not 100% weighted. Presumably, this triggered an email exchange, and as we all know, the advice given to players in general is NOT to play further during a dispute resolution process.

I would expect, upon visiting a site, to easily find a link to "terms and conditions" and "promotions" on the main page. I found neither on the main page for CBMsport. In my view, the terms ARE "buried", and even when unearthed, are incomplete. The promotions are also hard to find, residing in a scrolling "news blog", and not necessarily being in view when this is glanced at.

Any claim that players would receive the full details via email is bullshit, as to do this BEFORE a player even signs up would require the use of spam, and players NEED this information BEFORE they sign up to the contract of the SUB.

 

[cyprean]

Why would you deposit at a casino with such rules in the first place?

Sounds like someone didn't read the terms before playing, which is asking for trouble.

I usually try to fulfill the wagering requirements in one session if at all possible. Once I was told I could withdraw, I did not think that they would do this to me.

So everyone who plays there should know that even if you get the green light to withdraw that your money might not be safe.

They are offering me a partition of the money back, but for some reason they are unable to credit the original amount back. This strikes me as a little weird that they can credit my account with a smaller amount back, but not the full amount. I would think the admins could credit my account with whatever amount they wanted, and then manually check later that the wagering has been done before withdrawals would be accepted.

That would be fair to all IMO.

 

[gpitileac]

It's not made easy to navigate to the relevant terms and conditions. It took me a while and a few false leads just to find this, and it's hardly a proper set of terms and conditions for a sign up offer.

There is a link to other terms, but this just dumps you to a general page that does not give the kind of information a player needs to evaluate before making a deposit.

Where are terms such as allowed games, max bet limits, a definitive meaning of the phrase "Bonus Money Validity: 2 days", and how it is implemented.

There is so little in the terms that players are reliant on swift and ACCURATE responses from CS. There is also little with which to cross check a response from CS for accuracy.

So, after voiding over €3000, the casino thought the player would be satisfied by getting their deposit returned and double the original bonus added, plus VIP status, as compensation for the cock up made by the casino.

It's no wonder the player didn't just meekly accept this, and any operator who thinks such an offer would defuse such an issue needs their head examined.

It seems the full nature of this offer is not made available to players until they have signed up and made their deposit, which is the kind of thing that a rogue casino would do, it's a form of bait & switch.

From what I can read, ALL games are eligible, and all at 100% weighting, as there is nothing stated to the contrary.

It is starting to look like the OP DID actually think they had met the WR based on the incomplete information shown allowing the assumption that all games count 100%, so thought nothing amiss when they later received the email that they would get paid the next day.

It then turns out that a "bait & switch" begins, with the player told they have more to wager, and that in fact the games they played were not 100% weighted. Presumably, this triggered an email exchange, and as we all know, the advice given to players in general is NOT to play further during a dispute resolution process.

I would expect, upon visiting a site, to easily find a link to "terms and conditions" and "promotions" on the main page. I found neither on the main page for CBMsport. In my view, the terms ARE "buried", and even when unearthed, are incomplete. The promotions are also hard to find, residing in a scrolling "news blog", and not necessarily being in view when this is glanced at.

Any claim that players would receive the full details via email is bullshit, as to do this BEFORE a player even signs up would require the use of spam, and players NEED this information BEFORE they sign up to the contract of the SUB.

Hi ,

I saw that you copy the t&c of the welcome bonus , why didn't you copied the last phrase , with a direct link to the general rules .
If you noticed , the promotions is not that hard to find as mentioned and detailed bellow :



I don't really see where the terms are Burred.
Also we do not have a LIMIT OF BET , which not many casinos are doing that . And in the HELP SECTION > GENERAL RULES > PROMOTIONS & BONUSES , there is this phrase : 8.7 - Kindly note that the deposit bonus campaigns are created with custom values, kindly ask our customer support to provide you with list of games and their wagering contribution factor. . If a player wants to find out the contribution , just a simple e-mail can solve it .

PS> Nobody voided the 3338 BONUS MONEY . As each player knows that the bonus money REMAINS a bonus money until they fulfill the wagering requirements in the limits of the bonus Money Validity .

Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[cyprean]

As an admin you can easily add those links afterwards


Here is an old one without the link (if it even matters):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

How often does this happen that the player funds get removed per due to a) 2 day rule b) confusing support who says the money can be withdrawn c) hidden terms, that only can be received via email?

How often do you make them a VIP and offer them a reload but not their money back?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi ,

I saw that you copy the t&c of the welcome bonus , why didn't you copied the last phrase , with a direct link to the general rules .
If you noticed , the promotions is not that hard to find as mentioned and detailed bellow :
View attachment 41572View attachment 41573


I don't really see where the terms are Burred.
Also we do not have a LIMIT OF BET , which not many casinos are doing that . And in the HELP SECTION > GENERAL RULES > PROMOTIONS & BONUSES , there is this phrase : 8.7 - Kindly note that the deposit bonus campaigns are created with custom values, kindly ask our customer support to provide you with list of games and their wagering contribution factor. . If a player wants to find out the contribution , just a simple e-mail can solve it .

PS> Nobody voided the 3338 BONUS MONEY . As each player knows that the bonus money REMAINS a bonus money until they fulfill the wagering requirements in the limits of the bonus Money Validity .

Regards

Gabi Pitileac

You just dropped yourself right in it.

Kindly note that the deposit bonus campaigns are created with custom values, kindly ask our customer support to provide you with list of games and their wagering contribution factor

You admit that this relevant information is intentionally unavailable to new players BEFORE they register, so how can they do their "due diligence" of the rules before parting with their money and details?

It proves that the information I was looking for is intentionally unavailable, hence a "bait & switch" is pretty easy to pull on a player who makes their decision from the information published on the site.

The short 2 day window also pushes the player into a "play first, ask questions later" mindset, so what happened here does look like a rogue casino "stunt" having been pulled.

1) player signs up and deposits.
2) due to the short 2 day window, player just gets on and plays.
3) Player thinks WR is complete, and so seeks confirmation from CS.
4) CS confirms WR is complete, and that money will be paid.
5) Money just disappears.

Having received confirmation, there is no reason for the player to revisit the matter until the money has been paid, hence they are not looking for a later "bait and switch" email. When one is received though, they are hardly going to just get on and play, they are going to dispute the matter, and in the mean time NOT play.
The remainder of the 2 day window was nowhere near enough time to allow for a fair dispute resolution process, even the one on this forum which is:-

1) Contact the rep - allow 48 hours for the rep to respond
2) Submit a PAB

In this case, the money was already gone by the time stage 1 was underway, and the player was deprived the chance of a PAB resolution as, according to the casino, it is now "impossible" to turn the clock back.

What they rep is really blaming the OP for is not being bullied into accepting the unilateral resolution of the casino, but instead sticking to pursuing a proper dispute resolution process.

With no time allowed to follow correct procedure, the operator was asking for this to be pursued in the way it was, even with statements that could be construed as threats. For the player, they had to use some pretty strong tactics because they only had 13 hours to pursue the matter before it was too late - correct procedure was not an option.

Here, a dispute is not resolved until:-

1) The player accepts the resolution from the casino, or
2) Max has processed the PAB and issued his ruling.

Being bullied into accepting a "take it or leave it" offer from the casino does not count.


However, it is NOT "too late" for a PAB, even though the casino claims it is now "impossible" to return the balance. The casino seems to know this as they are actively prepared to forward everything to Bryan to defend their case.

What if Max DID rule in favour of the player having their balance restored? Would Max also be told "it's not possible", and thus risk the issue of a "casino warning"?

It seems it isn't impossible, it's just another casino tactic. They are hoping that the player will fail on a redo, even with a bigger bonus (or perhaps BECAUSE of a bigger bonus), and thus they end up turning a win of some €3000 for the player into a win of some €500 for the casino.

The warning is not so much about a 2 day window, it's the fact that the rules are withheld from the player until they commit themselves to playing with the bonus, and even then they have to think of contacting CS, rather than simply playing based on the information shown.

Also we do not have a LIMIT OF BET , which not many casinos are doing that

I am sure you don't


But I am just as certain that a player is NOT going to get paid if they chuck a massive bet on Roulette to double their entire bankroll before going on to complete WR. Where other casinos have specific rules, I would expect CBM to utilise things like "spirit of the bonus" as a means to enforce a max bet rule after the fact where any player employs such a tactic

 

[vinylweatherman]

As an admin you can easily add those links afterwards

View attachment 41574
Here is an old one without the link (if it even matters):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

How often does this happen that the player funds get removed per due to a) 2 day rule b) confusing support who says the money can be withdrawn c) hidden terms, that only can be received via email?

How often do you make them a VIP and offer them a reload but not their money back?

It's 7 days in that original too, not 2.

This would have been far less likely to have happened with a 7 day limit, hence a lack of complaints from others.

It shows there was no link at all, so there was no way to direct players to even the vague general terms, let alone anything more specific.

The general terms CANNOT be reached from the main page either, players need to find a link from somewhere else. I only found the link when I found the current incarnation of the offer, which oddly enough is the same, so it seems someone has been in, reducing the time from 7 days to 2, and adding the link, between the 19th June and now.

This could be in response to "other complaints" that have not gone public.


other casinos also produce "custom" sign up offers that run for similar timescales. They also have no problems in publishing the relevant "custom" rules for each of these promotions in an honest and transparent manner.

The nature of these hidden terms is that the casino can make them up after the fact, and claim they are the ones that originally applied. There is no way for either party to prove what the terms were at the point the contract was established, which is usually the point at which a bonus is added to a deposit and a first bet is placed.


However, if players get together and share, there IS a way to prove whether or not rogue tactics are being employed here.

 

[gpitileac]

As an admin you can easily add those links afterwards

View attachment 41574
Here is an old one without the link (if it even matters):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

How often does this happen that the player funds get removed per due to a) 2 day rule b) confusing support who says the money can be withdrawn c) hidden terms, that only can be received via email?

How often do you make them a VIP and offer them a reload but not their money back?

Hi ,

As you see in the Picture ,

The rollback added by you is from 19 JUNE .

As seen in the picture
CBM First Deposit bonus:

Get 100% for every 10 Euro deposited up to 500 Euro bonus + 10 Freespins in our latest Slot game EggOMatic.

T&C of the First Deposit Bonus:

• Bonus program is valid between 22/4/13 17:00 CET and 30/06/13 11:59 CET
• Percentage of transfer (100%); Bonus cap: EUR 500.00; Minimum deposit limit: EUR 10.00
• Cash-in wagering Req.: 45
• Bonus Money Validity: 7 days
• The exclusive 10 Free Spins in our latest Slot game EggOMatic will be added the day after You make Your deposit (for example, deposit today and the free spins will be active tomorrow after 14:00 CET)


The promotion expired on 30.06.2013 . And i was remade on the 1st July as seen also the GAMES ARE DIFFERENT ERGO Different promotion .


Regards

Gabi

 

[gpitileac]

It's 7 days in that original too, not 2.

This would have been far less likely to have happened with a 7 day limit, hence a lack of complaints from others.

It shows there was no link at all, so there was no way to direct players to even the vague general terms, let alone anything more specific.

The general terms CANNOT be reached from the main page either, players need to find a link from somewhere else. I only found the link when I found the current incarnation of the offer, which oddly enough is the same, so it seems someone has been in, reducing the time from 7 days to 2, and adding the link, between the 19th June and now.

This could be in response to "other complaints" that have not gone public.


other casinos also produce "custom" sign up offers that run for similar timescales. They also have no problems in publishing the relevant "custom" rules for each of these promotions in an honest and transparent manner.

The nature of these hidden terms is that the casino can make them up after the fact, and claim they are the ones that originally applied. There is no way for either party to prove what the terms were at the point the contract was established, which is usually the point at which a bonus is added to a deposit and a first bet is placed.


However, if players get together and share, there IS a way to prove whether or not rogue tactics are being employed here.

Please Investigate first before making any accuses .

The screenshot posted by the player was from 19 JUNE . The campaign was modified at the beginning of JULY with appropriate modifications . Free spin Game , Bonus Validity and DIRECT LINK .


PS. I will not comment anymore until casinomeister will give his answer. The comments are deviating from the OP , and people are posting messages without making further investigations .



Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[The Dude]

Okay, honestly - I am not going to have the time it's going to take to go over this effectively. I am on the way out for a couple of weeks on family business, so I would recommend that Cyprean submits a PAB and Max will have ample time to look at this closely.

@ Cyprean - please read the PAB FAQs and submit the form. Thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

@ gpitileac - I'll forward what I have to Maxd

 

[vinylweatherman]

Please Investigate first before making any accuses .

The screenshot posted by the player was from 19 JUNE . The campaign was modified at the beginning of JULY with appropriate modifications . Free spin Game , Bonus Validity and DIRECT LINK .


PS. I will not comment anymore until casinomeister will give his answer. The comments are deviating from the OP , and people are posting messages without making further investigations .



Regards

Gabi Pitileac

I did investigate.

I went to the site as a new player would, and looked for all the information I would need to make a decision over whether or not to register and play the current offer.

I could NOT find some pretty basic information that all new players would need if they did their research properly. You then admitted that some of this basic information is "custom", and intentionally not released to prospective players until they have already made a commitment to register and play the SUB for that month. Even then, the onus appears to be on the player to ask to see the relevant terms and conditions, rather than them being made available to view.

Such a system does not exist at a reputable casino, and so finding such a system present is a classic "spot the rogue" indicator. Unfortunately, the OP's rogue radar appears to have been offline at the time of deposit, so they walked right into this nightmare, and are now faced with having to deal with it rather than walking away and finding a better place to play.

If these promos only change every month, how come it's "impossible" to publish the FULL set of promotional terms just the once, rather than have CS reproduce the same information for every player who signs up. Unless there is something to hide, this just doesn't make any sense.

I can only presume therefore that the intent is indeed a "bait & switch", with new players being lured in by a too-good-to-be-true offer of 100% up to €500 with what appears to be no restrictions other than the 45x WR. If all games count, then a 45x WR is pretty damn good for a table game player, and there is nothing to suggest that this offer is in any way restricted to slots, or that games might be weighted or even zero contributing.

If new players did see the rest of the rules, they would realise that the offer was not as good as it looked, and may in fact be considerably worse than the "less good" offers available elsewhere. This would particularly be the case for non slots players.

For slots players, 45x WR is actually pretty BAD when compared with the competition. The equivalent slots bonus at a Microgaming casino would be a WR of 30x bonus alone, equivalent to a 15x WR when compared with slots play on the CBM 100% offer, which is set at 3x the value, equivalent to a Microgaming casino offering a 100% bonus with a 90x WR on slots. Now we can see how BAD this offer really is for slots lovers. Even this illustration assumes that all slots count 100% towards WR, and there might be a nasty "custom surprise" awaiting those who dare beat this WR

 

[cyprean]

The rep wrote to me that the compensation is only valid until tomorrow.

However if I PaB I can not play at the site until it is concluced, and I wouldnt accept a small fraction of the money as compensation anyway.

PaB done. I wont be playing until it gets resolved. I am not taking their bait of accepting a fraction of what was removed.

 

[gpitileac]

Okay, honestly - I am not going to have the time it's going to take to go over this effectively. I am on the way out for a couple of weeks on family business, so I would recommend that Cyprean submits a PAB and Max will have ample time to look at this closely.

@ Cyprean - please read the PAB FAQs and submit the form. Thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

@ gpitileac - I'll forward what I have to Maxd

Hi ,

Thank you very much .

I will wait for Max's answer regarding this issue .

Furthermore as mentioned i will no longer comment on this post until CasinoMeister administrators will give their opinion .

Regarding the player , it's the players decision to accept / refuse the Bonus . ( one last time i mention , that the bonus offered is not a Baite/compensation . It's just a sign of good will giving him the opportunity to start over .

I wish you a good holiday with your family .

Best Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[maxd]

Okay, PAB received. I'll get to it first thing Monday morning.

I would appreciate it if everyone involved would respect the PAB guidelines spelled out in the FAQ, namely no discussions of the case details here on the forums until the PAB has run it's course. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[maxd]

Okay, the PAB is pretty much done, just waiting for final comments from the OP before making it official.

FTR the OP has been banned for 2 weeks for making threats against the casino in his early communications with them, multiple violations of Forum Rule 1.17

UPDATE: the OP has gone silent so I thought I'd make a few closing remarks and then move on to other things.

The bottom line AFAIC is that the OP made repeated threats against the casino using Casinomeister's forums as blackmail. This alone would normally get the OP kicked off of Casinomeister (for life) and the PAB tossed out along with him.

There are two reasons that didn't happen:

1. the OP has been around CM for a long time and I thought he deserved a bit of slack.
2. the casino Support person did screw up and not in a small way. That needed to be factored in to the OP's situation.

In cases like this -- both parties at fault -- I prefer an abrupt cease-fire and resolution. As such I proposed a solution to the casino, they agreed and the settlement (deposit + % of the disputed winnings) was placed in the OP's account for him to do with as he saw fit, including full and immediate withdrawal if he wished. That was the last I heard from the OP. Fair enough I guess, case closed.

Lastly, I'm changing the title of this thread to reflect the fact that this one was a draw: both parties were at fault. The OP's original title -- "CBMsport.com tells me I can withdraw, but removes my 'expired' balance" for those that care -- was unreasonably bias and it would have been unfair to the casino to let it stand as it was.

 

[maxd]

The OP has since contacted me via email, says he DOES NOT accept the settlement. I've told him that's his choice but I'm done with the case nevertheless. IMO he's lucky to get what was on offer: under normal circumstances I would have simply tossed him to the curb -- for the blackmail threats -- and his PAB along with him.

 

[lnspin]

So casino makes a mistake and they can settle

Player makes a mistake and loses all his money

Seems fair

In honesty if i was the OP i would have taken the $$ as this clip joint isnt going to give him anything now.

 

[maxd]

Player makes a mistake and loses all his money

No, player makes multiple threats against the casino in direct violation of our Forum Rules and that factors into the PAB in a big way. Here it means he was asked to settle for a fraction of the money HE MIGHT HAVE WON if he had finished his WR, which he did not.

As I've said, if this had been someone other than a long-time Casinomeister member I would have tossed him and his PAB to the curb without hesitation. AFAIC I'm giving the guy a MAJOR break by not doing that, taking his PAB seriously and going for a settlement I think is fair under the circumstances.

If he hadn't make the threats I probably would have pressed the casino for a full restoration of his balance, etc, etc. Ignore the Forum Rules and expect pain, simple as that.

FYI your statement stinks of troll to me: you are intentionally ignoring the facts in order to distort them. Repeat it and I'll respond accordingly, per the Forum Rules of course.

 

[lnspin]

No, player makes multiple threats against the casino in direct violation of our Forum Rules and that factors into the PAB in a big way. Here it means he was asked to settle for a fraction of the money HE MIGHT HAVE WON if he had finished his WR, which he did not.

As I've said, if this had been someone other than a long-time Casinomeister member I would have tossed him and his PAB to the curb without hesitation. AFAIC I'm giving the guy a MAJOR break by not doing that, taking his PAB seriously and going for a settlement I think is fair under the circumstances.

If he hadn't make the threats I probably would have pressed the casino for a full restoration of his balance, etc, etc. Ignore the Forum Rules and expect pain, simple as that.

FYI your statement stinks of troll to me: you are intentionally ignoring the facts in order to distort them. Repeat it and I'll respond accordingly, per the Forum Rules of course.

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

 

[Cleveland]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

It's a condition of being a member here. Max or anyone else here has no obligation to help any players. They set up their rules, and we agree to follow them as member of the forum. The OP as I mention right from the start of this mess, is a long time member and as such is expected to know the rules, or at least the big ones. If they tell you to contact barney and friends prior to submitting a PAB, then that's what you do. As Max said the OP should be kicked out of here per the rules but isn't. (added the but isn't part, as I don't want the OP kicked out etc etc).

The PAB processes should have been started from the word go, even after I pointed that fact out on page one, the OP continued to engage the rep. That tells me he is using the forum to put pressure on the casino. That goes against the PAB process. If he PABs and wins, yet the casino decides not to do right by the player, then you come here, and of course casinomeister will handle accordingly.

I've bad mouthed casino's but I had no intention of PABing, nor did I think the issue was PAB worthy, so yes in that case it's ok just to inform players. This was not the case here.

Threats always muddy the waters. It's one more hurdle that Max or whoever has to climb over / sort out. Casino's are expected to adhere to the PAB process, and expect this forum to make sure the players do as well. Just as certain behaviors scream rogue casino, certain behaviors by players scream fraud player. Clearly the OP isn't a fraud, but when you start using casinomesiter as a threat against a casino it's bad form, which is what many frauds do to strong arm the casino into paying. They know some casino's don't want the bad publicity, even if the casino is in the right, it will scare some players away, as it can take a bit of time to sort through the matter.

 

[maxd]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong?

Everything! Whatever the casino may or may not have done the OP using Casinomeister to blackmail the casino is wrong, full stop.

As I saw it from the evidence available -- both from the OP and the casino -- the OP deliberately and repeatedly threatened to use Casinomeister's forums to damage the casino if the casino management did not do what the OP wanted. That is against the Posting Rules of the site to begin with, as Cleveland has already described. It is also a particularly offensive abuse of Casinomeister membership IMO because it undermines our position as a neutral party in dispute settlement. In other words it strikes at the very heart of what I do and I will not allow it.

No one should be permitted to use Casinomeister to blackmail anyone for anything, ever. I don't care what injustice they think has been done to them, it's not an option. If they choose to take matters into their own hands, ignoring the damage it can and will do to Casinomeister and the work I do, then I feel no hesitation whatsoever in bringing the full force of forum rules down upon them. If you don't like that then take it up with Bryan, it's not open for debate on the forums.

I understand that you think it was just "hot-headed" misjudgement but I (obviously) see it as being something else entirely. In the OP's case it was repeated on several occasions over a number of days and that makes it much more than just an off-the-cuff error in judgement. If the OP was only acting impetuously then he needs to learn more self-control, at least in matters concerning Casinomeister, and this would be the moment he's being required to do so. Whether he, or you, respect it he is being given a second chance here regarding his continued membership on the site. As I've said time and time again, under normal circumstances he would be history, end of story.

In this case I have tried to balance the OP's loyalty to Casinomeister, the gravity of their offense against Casinomeister, and the fault of the casino in handling the OP's situation. IMO the settlement offered was generous and since the OP is on "vacation" I have tried to be fair and balanced in reporting the case status here in the thread where the OP raised the issue. Again, if you don't like that then take it up with Bryan, it's not open for debate on the forums.

And you throwing your sarcastic, misguided and misinformed "opinion" into the mix is of no help whatsoever. If you disagreed with what went down you could say so: "I disagree because of ..." works very well for such things. Snide comments of scorn and derision are intentionally destructive to the site and just plain trollish. As stated they will be treated accordingly.

 

[Sovietsky]

Max I was wondering about the blackmail.

Let's say a casino don't want to pay me any winnings or they just do something rogue can I say to the casino that I will contact CM and also will write about it on CM, is that considered as blackmail?

 

[Sovietsky]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

There was a thread with a guy that behaved bad, he didn't get his winnings in a reasonable time or something and was just rude.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/classycoin-com-does-not-pay-the-money.56578/

However a good casino should pay him his winnings and then ban him.

 

[maxd]

... can I say to the casino that I will contact CM and also will write about it on CM ....

Why say anything? Just contact us and get the ball rolling for real.

Anyway, to answer your question, anything of the form "do ______ or I will _______ at Casinomeister" is blackmail, IMO. Such a thing is using us as a threat against the casino and will get you in the deep doo-doo when we find out about it.

... a good casino should pay him his winnings ....

THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.

 

[Sovietsky]

Why say anything? Just contact us and get the ball rolling for real.

Anyway, to answer your question, anything of the form "do ______ or I will _______ at Casinomeister" is blackmail, IMO. Such a thing is using us as a threat against the casino and will get you in the deep doo-doo when we find out about it.

Well let's say some casino screws me over and I make a PAB and you later found out that I was pissed and cursed at them, might adventure my PAB. Can you atleast understand a player when he get's screwed and he feel hopless?


[/QUOTE]THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear that it was about the russian guy and not the OP.

 

[Nifty29]

Well let's say some casino screws me over and I make a PAB and you later found out that I was pissed and cursed at them, might adventure my PAB. Can you atleast understand a player when he get's screwed and he feel hopless?

THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear that it was about the russian guy and not the OP.[/QUOTE]

TBH I think this is getting a little bit silly I.e. the whole "but what if I say xyz is that blackmail? How about abc?" thing.

Common sense dictates what is blackmailing and what is not. Its very simple....if you THREATEN the casino in ANY way by saying you'll post at CM if they don't do what you say, or that you'll use the services of CM to coerce them, then it is blackmail.

If you slag a casino off at CM, whilst it might not be blackmail if you don't threaten it first, it will affect the chances of you obtaining a resolution to your issue. If you go too far in your comments, you'll be subject to the usual posting rules regarding flaming.

I have NEVER seen a PAB tossed without VERY good reasons....and I say REASONS as it seldom comes down to one post or comment etc.

I'm not sure Max could have been any clearer. Continuing the "what if" or "poor OP" stuff borders on pot-stirring at best and trolling at worst IMO.

I don't understand why Inspin is taking this so personally...??

 

[skiny]

I fully understand Bryan not wanting people to use his website to blackmail or bully casinos. When proof is show that this has happened, I wouldn't blame him for washing his hands of the entire thing and refusing to help the player in question. It's his site and it's his right.

Putting that aside, even if this site didn't exist it doesn't change the fact that the casino made a mistake.

The player was given the impression that the wage requirement had been met and the money was no longer considered a bonus. Somebody noticed the error and it was realized that the wage requirement had not been met.

At this point what I think should have happened was the casino should have put the bonus on hold as a show of good faith since the error was theirs and not the player's. The player should have been contacted and told the wage requirement had not been fulfilled and the casino should have waited a reasonable amount of time for the player to reply to the casino as not everyone checks their emails every day. Once contact had been established between the casino and the player, an agreement should have been met for the player to come back and continue wagering where he left off. If the bonus was valid for one more day after he made his faulty withdrawal he should have been given back that day to finish wagering. His balance should have been unchanged, bonus or not.

I read in another thread today where a casino made a mistake and handed out a million dollar prize to the wrong person and corrected the mistake by handing out a second million dollar prize. That is the correct way to handle a situation. This was a bonus with a wage requirement attached to it and a relatively small amount of money. The casino could have handled this much better in my opinion.

I understand why this website and it's operators frown upon people using it to bully casinos. I don't understand how a casino can admit to making a mistake and then expect the player to suffer for it.

 

[Sovietsky]

text

I agree about the "what if X and Y" but I want to be clear on that.

Now I got the answer and in the future I will try to use the PM instead of getting offtopic.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If the OP hadn't made threats, Max says the likely outcome would be pressing the casino for a full restoration of the balance. If he ignored the threats and still pressed for this, it would be evident to others that there was no downside to trying threats and blackmail first, and then resorting to PAB if that failed.

Even informing a casino that you are going to raise the issue with Casinomeister can backfire as it gives them notice, and thus time to prepare their case. It's better to let a PAB take them by surprise, as this would allow Max to see how quickly and well they react, and without prior notice, Max would experience in full any "stalling tactic" that might be used to buy more time before responding.

However, if the casino is the one to first mention a third party dispute service, or that they are "acting in accordance" with standards set by a third party, the best reply would be to tell them that you are fully aware of these third party standards, and will give them the time they stipulate to resolve the issue internally before utilising the relevant complaints procedure - it works wonders! (from personal experience)

 

[maxd]

If the OP hadn't made threats, Max says the likely outcome would be pressing the casino for a full restoration of the balance. If he ignored the threats and still pressed for this, it would be evident to others that there was no downside to trying threats and blackmail first ....

Exactly! The settlement offer was an attempt to balance these and other factors, including the casino's responsibility for misleading the player (however unintentionally).

Later: I've just received confirmation from the casino that the player withdrew the settlement money Monday afternoon. How he can then say to me in an email the next day (Tuesday) that he doesn't accept the offer is beyond me! He took the money and in so doing ended the PAB. He's also terminated his membership here at Casinomeister for lying to me and wasting my time.

 

[skiny]

I agree, the guy was obviously a jerk and didn't deserve any help.

I also think the casino followed an entirely wrong path and got lucky that he was a jerk. It still stinks for the casino in my opinion. They should have fixed the problem properly before it got to that stage.