Player Beware Gamdom - The Tale of my Missing Balance

Here be trouble!
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Location
Canada
I suspect an employee or hacker logged into my account and stole my entire balance. Also find this really weird because someone else claimed this in another thread and I found it completely unbelievable lol

I posted a joke in chat and said "down to my last box of kraft dinner. Help"

The moderator banned my chat. I went to live chat and said hey why did I get banned in chat for nothing I dont appreciate that. Im not going to play here and just cashout if thats how you treat people.

Not long after saying that, the money was taken out of my account and sent to two crypto addresses.


I was mid game playing east coast vs west coast.

Suddenly my balance dropped from $1700 to $29. Then i could see LTC removed and USDT added and then $29 being added to another crypto balance and then moved.

Money was removed completely. All accounts zero then $29 would appear. Then everything zero. Then $210 would appear. Then zero. This went on for a few minutes. Money was being added and removed, added and removed. This is someone in the website control panel and not what a hacker would or could do?

So it looks to me like an employee did this and if they didnt, then Gamdom.com is 100% prone to hackers getting inside their system and cashing out their player balances.

No emails of breach. I was not logged out. I did not get an email for password recovery or anything like that at all.

I was not hacked. My password is impossible to hack. It was over 10 letters, numbers and special symbols not used anywhere else online. It is a password made specifically for this casino as I use different passwords for every casino and have them written in a book.

To guess my password would be in the trillions to one.

I ran a deep scan on my computer. No issues at all. No teamviewers, no trojans, not a single thing as I suspected.

I only play here a couple times a year so for a hacker to randomly know at this very moment I was playing and to log in and steal my money is absolutely unheard of.

I do not click links.



I went to live chat asking what is going on and they said oh it looks like 2 withdraws on your account and quickly linked me to them. Like they had it prepared for me.

I fully believe a gamdom employee just empted my balance.

So I am warning the gaming community to instantly stop playing there as your money and balance is not secure.
 

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Even without reading the post in full, I can say that a casino cannot withdraw money to a wallet that has never been used for cashouts. This means it’s fraud on the casino’s part. I’ve even faced something like this myself, when my balance was wiped and they told me hackers had stolen it.
 
Even without reading the post in full, I can say that a casino cannot withdraw money to a wallet that has never been used for cashouts. This means it’s fraud on the casino’s part. I’ve even faced something like this myself, when my balance was wiped and they told me hackers had stolen it.
I got into an argument with live chat and told them I want an apology or I wont play there anymore and will cashout.

Minutes later, my account was accessed and the entire balance stolen and cashed out to two crypto addresses.

This casino actually stole my money. The only reason why I leave a chance open to a hacker, is well..I dont know. I guuess a coincidence like that could occur 1 in a trillion times.
 
How the tables have turned.
Only messing - I hope this is resolved. Same as the other post.
ya no kidding. I was like wait how is this possible this just happened to me.

Very scary casinos can just access your account and steal your money.

This industry has gone to crap. When I have some time this weekend, I am going to disable all my casinos and never play again. Now that I know this can be done, zero chance I trust casinos. All of them.
 
ya no kidding. I was like wait how is this possible this just happened to me.

Very scary casinos can just access your account and steal your money.

This industry has gone to crap. When I have some time this weekend, I am going to disable all my casinos and never play again. Now that I know this can be done, zero chance I trust casinos. All of them.
100%. Just look at the way some accredited casinos on here behave!
Madness.
 
This casino actually stole my money. The only reason why I leave a chance open to a hacker, is well..I dont know. I guuess a coincidence like that could occur 1 in a trillion times.
This is very worrying. From your previous post in this thread, sounds like you have the same password policy that I do. In fact all my passwords, bar my phone and my computers, I couldn't tell you, even if you put a gun to my head with all six chambers loaded. This is to include my account here on Casinomeister.

I also do not trust the cloud, my password management is performed locally, whereby they are all kept in an encrypted and password protected file.

Hope you get this resolved @lockinlove and I have no reason at all to doubt what you say is not 100% fact.
 
This is very worrying. From your previous post in this thread, sounds like you have the same password policy that I do. In fact all my passwords, bar my phone and my computers, I couldn't tell you, even if you put a gun to my head with all six chambers loaded. This is to include my account here on Casinomeister.

I also do not trust the cloud, my password management is performed locally, whereby they are all kept in an encrypted and password protected file.

Hope you get this resolved @lockinlove and I have no reason at all to doubt what you say is not 100% fact.
Thank you.

I am in shock. I have been doing this for over a decade. I have done some work for casinos too.

This entire time, if casinos wanted to, they can access your account and just steal money and then try and blame 'hackers'.

There is no way all of this coincendence happened like it did. I play here every few months. There is no way a hacker would know that I was winning, I chose that day and time and was playing.

No password breach, impossible to hack that password and an argument with live chat where minutes late I was stolen from.

They claim to be investigating. But there is nothing to investigate. This casino clearly stole my money. So i will wait for their 'investigation' and then PAB. If anything, a warning may come out of it and the community can know that you better be playing in highly accreddited casinos because if not, you are vulnerable to employees stealing your balance.
 
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This casino is out of their mind. I had a $1700 balance. Cracked a joke about kraft dinner. They called me a beggar and banned my chat. Minutes later after getting into an argument with live chat, they stole my money.

They have not responded to any of my questions or told me how or who hacked my account. They just simply said sorry nothing we can do. No refunds.

Gamdom casino is stealing players money. The security of their website is extremely unsafe and employees are engaging in theft.

I wont post anymore because I will be filing a PAB so this can be brough to light
 

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Thing is, it's straightforward in crapto-world.

With little or no KYC necessary for crypto wallets as opposed to other methods, it's going to be abused by bent casinos.

There have been people on here praising Gamdom. I hope they read this.
 
This is crazy. Since I know you IRL and I have a very high standing on this site, oce I cashout the couple thousand i have in cashback +whatever rewards for my standings in King of The Hill at the end of Sept. i will speak to someone in their management if your PAB fails.

I can see it from their perspective to be honest. They might think you're trying to scam them but IP address should take care of that concern real quic as they are unspoofable. Sounds like they dont like your responses and are just shutting you down based on that. Im sure I can get somewhere with them if needed
 
Thing is, it's straightforward in crapto-world.

With little or no KYC necessary for crypto wallets as opposed to other methods, it's going to be abused by bent casinos.

There have been people on here praising Gamdom. I hope they read this.
They are backed by venture capitalist,companies that i know and have dealt with in my business life and have 50 to 100m in revenue/year. This isn't some fly-by-night company, they are as legit as it gets. This is concerning however, and their response is troubling, to say the least.
 
They are backed by venture capitalist,companies that i know and have dealt with in my business life and have 50 to 100m in revenue/year. This isn't some fly-by-night company, they are as legit as it gets. This is concerning however, and their response is troubling, to say the least.
Well, if her complaint is taken seriously and they admit someone's bent then faith would be restored, you cannot really mitigate bent person(s) within an organization.
 
Well, if her complaint is taken seriously and they admit someone's bent then faith would be restored, you cannot really mitigate bent person(s) within an organization.
If this isn't resolved in a satisfactory manner I would:
1. Be very surprised
2. Cash out all of my rewards at month-end and, sadly, close my account. It only takes one shady thing that is dealt with poorly to turn the tides of sentiment
 
I nearly deposited there last night. Thank god i chose vave instead!

So gutted to hear this happened to you mate, I can only imagine how fuming you were :(

I wont be playing there again until i see what comes of all this. But thanks for giving us all the heads up!

Maybe some Tosser has stole your login and then withdrew the balances to there own crypto wallets. I think this is the more likely the scenario but that's just my opinion.

Gutted for you pal!
 
I nearly deposited there last night. Thank god i chose vave instead!

So gutted to hear this happened to you mate, I can only imagine how fuming you were :(

I wont be playing there again until i see what comes of all this. But thanks for giving us all the heads up!

Maybe some Tosser has stole your login and then withdrew the balances to there own crypto wallets. I think this is the more likely the scenario but that's just my opinion.

Gutted for you pal!
Yes, but the issue here is that the timing of it is very suspicious.
 
I nearly deposited there last night. Thank god i chose vave instead!

So gutted to hear this happened to you mate, I can only imagine how fuming you were :(

I wont be playing there again until i see what comes of all this. But thanks for giving us all the heads up!

Maybe some Tosser has stole your login and then withdrew the balances to there own crypto wallets. I think this is the more likely the scenario but that's just my opinion.

Gutted for you pal!
Thanks. Im more rattled than anything.

The timing is impossible.

I play here maybe once every 2-4 months. Sometimes even longer.

The money was removed right after I got into a fight with live chat, demanded an apology and threatened if I didnt, I would close my account.

I dont know how hackers would steal my log in details. My password is hidden and impossible to guess.

Check the email they sent me. Its like they know they did it. They didnt even respond to any. of my questions or act like they cared at all. They just said sorry you dont get anything bye.

I think this was a manager or something doing it out of spite.

Whether it was the casino (which i fully believe) or a hack, their website is not safe at all.

I have zero issues in any other casinos, stocks, banking or anything.
 
If this isn't resolved in a satisfactory manner I would:
1. Be very surprised
2. Cash out all of my rewards at month-end and, sadly, close my account. It only takes one shady thing that is dealt with poorly to turn the tides of sentiment
They told me basically too bad. Wont answer my questions at all or provide me of proof my account was hacked. Wont provide IP addresses or log ins.

This 100% was a pissed off manager.
 
This is one of many reasons why I won't touch crypto or play at any casino that uses it until it can be regulated properly. It's the Wild West out there.

I hope you get a positive outcome.
never again. I am closing all of non accreddited casinos.

Ever since Ive wandered into the dark land of casinos, I have run into a tonne of issue and scams.
 
Im waiting to post a PAB as im in back and forth with them

They are finally admitting "a hacker" instead of pretending they dont know.

So now they are admitting to someone entering my account, i can safely say it was them. As my password is 10000% impossible to get, i ran a deep scan, no threats at all.

And once again. How would a hacker know to enter my account at that exact moment after I won big and played for the first time in 2 months. And minutes after I threatened to close my account and cashout.

I advise everyone to cashout their money and close their accounts. Gamdom.com is either super unsecure and easily hackable or employees doing it. Or both.

I am going around right now and closing every crypto casino and non accreddited. I suggest you all do the same too.

If you thiink it cant happen to you, it will.
 

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Damn i thought i was quite safe playing on the cryptos but seems i need to just stick to B.C Game and Vave. Im now scared to play elsewere now. I have already deposit and withdrew at both vave and b.c game. But i was playign at gamdom just last week, but after reading this horror show youv'e had there no chance i go back there now.

I see what you mean now by the timing being awfully suspicious, You might be right then. But because its a crypto joint they will most likely get away with doing it knowing the player is near enough powerless.

It really can be a sick, scummy, business most times the casino world.

Hope you get it sorted mate, or at least find out what happened!
 
Damn i thought i was quite safe playing on the cryptos but seems i need to just stick to B.C Game and Vave. Im now scared to play elsewere now. I have already deposit and withdrew at both vave and b.c game. But i was playign at gamdom just last week, but after reading this horror show youv'e had there no chance i go back there now.

I see what you mean now by the timing being awfully suspicious, You might be right then. But because its a crypto joint they will most likely get away with doing it knowing the player is near enough powerless.

It really can be a sick, scummy, business most times the casino world.

Hope you get it sorted mate, or at least find out what happened!
Im quite content it was $1700 and not $200,000 or something. $1700 loss I can stomach but a bigger amount would be difficult. Especially given their "I dont care not our problem" attitude.

If a casino cant even take blame and refund $1700 after they confirmed I was 'hacked' on their platform, that will not give the community confidence they are safe or covered. It allows players open to full out abuse and theft.

Look at their responses. They could care less. I was just stolen from on your supposed SECURE website. And they are trying to place blame on me.

I play on rakebit and other crypto casinos. No issues. No hacks. No nothing. This is a Gamdom security flaw.

I was completely helpless. They detected the hacker but didnt do anything about it? Great security system!

I still believe this was an employee. A random hacker makes zero sense.
 
Hey Oscar,

Thats a good question. Ill have to ask why that was allowed.
Sounds like a proper inside job if they can circumvent AML regulations. Or maybe being a crypto site there isn't that level of due diligence and you can withdraw funds to wherever the fuck you like? It's an absolute fucking disgrace what's happened here if it's gone down exactly as LL describes...
 
And once again. How would a hacker know to enter my account at that exact moment after I won big and played for the first time in 2 months. And minutes after I threatened to close my account and cashout.
A brute force dictionary attempt, but then surely the casino client would lock your account out after x number of incorrect attempts. Plus if you have a strong password using a mixture of upper and lower case, numbers and special characters a brute force dictionary would not work regardless.

I know from my days working for an operator which is now eons ago ( I left Ladbrokes in 2005 ) - the player tracking system that CS Agents used to manage accounts, did not reveal player passwords. They are hashed out and encrypted even at database level.

That said, CS agents can add bonuses and make manual adjustments to player accounts all the time.

Withdrawing to a crypto account though on a player's behalf. I have no idea. Crypto wasn't a thing back then when I worked for Ladbrokes.

But there would and should be logs of all account activity. So should be very easy for the casino to find out who and which IP address performed the withdrawal.
 
How is it possible to make a cashout to a crypto wallet,when there was Never A deposit from?
I believe this is possible. The whole point about crypto currency is that it is anonymous. So your bitcoin address for example that you withdraw funds to, could be a newly generated address each and everytime. It does not necessarily have to go to a dedicated wallet.
 
So IMO what I would do is the following now Gamdom are stating you were indeed hacked:

  • Ensure you have no malware or keyloggers on your PC. This would be the only way someone would know when you hit a win and also have access to your casino account password. Thus enabling them to withdraw the funds right there and then.
  • Ask Gamdom to provide the logs of your account around the withdrawal. IP Address and also wallet / crytpo address
  • Definitely submit a PAB if your funds are not returned. I would give them until Monday.
 
So IMO what I would do is the following now Gamdom are stating you were indeed hacked:

  • Ensure you have no malware or keyloggers on your PC. This would be the only way someone would know when you hit a win and also have access to your casino account password. Thus enabling them to withdraw the funds right there and then.
  • Ask Gamdom to provide the logs of your account around the withdrawal. IP Address and also wallet / crytpo address
  • Definitely submit a PAB if your funds are not returned. I would give them until Monday.
From within or without?
 
So IMO what I would do is the following now Gamdom are stating you were indeed hacked:

  • Ensure you have no malware or keyloggers on your PC. This would be the only way someone would know when you hit a win and also have access to your casino account password. Thus enabling them to withdraw the funds right there and then.
  • Ask Gamdom to provide the logs of your account around the withdrawal. IP Address and also wallet / crytpo address
  • Definitely submit a PAB if your funds are not returned. I would give them until Monday.
I scanned my computer 3 times then got my IT company from the hospital to scan it. Its the highest software available as it protects patient records and hospital financials. Nothing found.

I deposited $1000 on 2 crypto casinos last night that I have an account at. Played a bit. Left the money in there and asked the casino if there were any attempts. Zero in the history of the accounts.

No password requests, no break in attempts on my paypal, ecopayz, banking, investments or any other casinos. I asked about 12 casinos if there were any attempts. None. One casino I have a couple thousand sitting in waiting for verification. Zero attempts.

I gave the casino til Monday to refund me. If not, well ive created a cut throat plan that I will proceed with.

If they want to do this, they will find out what a woman scorned is like. And I promise one thing, they will regret it.
 
How is it possible to make a cashout to a crypto wallet,when there was Never A deposit from?

It is possible, but usually requires extra security measures - such as email confirmation if that particular address has never been used.

Based on what @lockinlove described, the momentum here is definitely suspicious. I am not suggesting anything, but in the case of employee involvement this couldn't be a CS agent - only someone with payment privileges would be able to manipulate it. Again, I'm not prejudging anything.

And as @Webzcas suggested, I would definitely request the full player logs - including transaction, timestamps, withdrawal address details, and any device/IP metadata tied to those actions.
 
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I don't use Gamdon but don't they have some sort of email confirmation system where they email a code to you when you want to make a withdrawal? Most crypto casino's I use always do that.

I'm guessing you have the bitcoin addresses that these funds were sent to, have you looked them up and checked the transactions on those addresses. While they are obviously anonymous it might show other "dubious" behaviour.. ie you might see other transactions similar to yours timewise.

Hackers are out there but its a lot of effort for just $1,700. Would they spend so much time and effort for just $1,700. It definitely sounds like a inside job rather than a hacker
 
It is possible, but usually requires extra security measures - such as email confirmation if that particular address has never been used.

Based on what @lockinlove described, the momentum here is definitely suspicious. I am not suggesting anything, but in the case of employee involvement this couldn't be a CS agent - only someone with payment privileges would be able to manipulate it. Again, I'm not prejudging anything.

And as @Webzcas suggested, I would definitely request the full player logs - including transaction, timestamps, withdrawal address details, and any device/IP metadata tied to those actions.
I agree. The casino itself makes enough money that $1700USD would be of no interest to them but an employee being paid a wage would make sense.

I have no doubt in my mind given all the info I have received from other casinos and ewallets that this was indeed a rogue employee.

I gave them til Monday. If I am not paid then I will pursue this by other means which includes paid advertising that is directly pushed (via tags) towards the gambling community on social media.

I will make sure it gets seen by everyone who plays an online casino.

If they want to do this over $1700 and take zero responsibility, then they can pay the price 100x that in lost deposits and closed accounts and a huge hit to their reputation.

Once gamblers and streamers find out their security is like this and probable employees, they wont be so keen to play there.
 
I am more convinced than ever this was a rogue employee.

I have spread out $20,000 in various casinos including 2 crypto and left it for 2 days.
Why? Because I am 100% confident this was not a random hacker and there is zero risk to these funds.

I spent 3 hours messaging casinos again this morning. All casinos confirm there were zero attempts to log into any account. This includes paypal and ecopayz where I have left balances.

I have spoken to my 2 banks and crypto website and they have confirmed zero breaches or attempts.

So this only leaves Gamdom.

Now remember, i got into an argument with live chat and told them I was cashing out and closing my account where minutes later my account was accessed and money stolen right after saying this.


I have demanded over and over again an explanation. They refuse to answer emails or even respond any longer. However, they did respond finally and are now claiming an IP address from Estonia accessed my account and stole my money.

I believe that to be true. Likely an outside source that is involved with an employee at Gamdom.

There is no other way.

Password is not hackable. No viruses or threats anywhere else. And done minutes after I was going to cashout and close account.

I will PAB but the only outcome I see is them providing the logs about the IP address from Estonia and then just claim no responsibility

I did give them a deadline until tomorrow to reimburse the stolen funds.
 
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I am more convinced than ever this was a rogue employee.

I have spread out $20,000 in various casinos including 2 crypto and left it for 2 days.
Why? Because I am 100% confident this was not a random hacker and there is zero risk to these funds.

I spent 3 hours messaging casinos again this morning. All casinos confirm there were zero attempts to log into any account. This includes paypal and ecopayz where I have left balances.

I have spoken to my 2 banks and crypto website and they have confirmed zero breaches or attempts.

So this only leaves Gamdom.

Now remember, i got into an argument with live chat and told them I was cashing out and closing my account where minutes later my account was accessed and money stolen right after saying this.


I have demanded over and over again an explanation. They refuse to answer emails or even respond any longer. However, they did respond finally and are now claiming an IP address from Estonia accessed my account and stole my money.

I believe that to be true. Likely an outside source that is involved with an employee at Gamdom.

There is no other way.

Password is not hackable. No viruses or threats anywhere else. And done minutes after I was going to cashout and close account.

I will PAB but the only outcome I see is them providing the logs about the IP address from Estonia and then just claim no responsibility

I did give them a deadline until tomorrow to reimburse the stolen funds.
If we accept what Gamdom is saying about your account being hacked from someone in Estonia it raises some serious issues. For one, how can you have multiple sessions running from different countries. If your logged in from an IP address from Canada or wherever how can you have a simultaneous login from an Estonian IP address. Wouldn't that raise flags or wouldn't the other session be logged out.

Does Gamdom have website security from 1998 as surely it can't be this dogshit.
 
If we accept what Gamdom is saying about your account being hacked from someone in Estonia it raises some serious issues. For one, how can you have multiple sessions running from different countries. If your logged in from an IP address from Canada or wherever how can you have a simultaneous login from an Estonian IP address. Wouldn't that raise flags or wouldn't the other session be logged out.

Does Gamdom have website security from 1998 as surely it can't be this dogshit.
This is what i asked them

How are 2 people from 2 locations allowed in at the same time? Why wouldnt I be sent a security alert at an attempt at log in? Why no password reset email?

Their response was basically we have no protocols in regards to the above aside from password change. We send a password change when it is requested

This is why I know this was an employee. If they truly do let numerous players to log in at the same time from different locations then that is a massive security flaw.

The have claimed no responsibility and told me their decision is final. "The $1750 was sent to an account in Estonia and you will not be given reimbursement our sincerest apologies"
 
This is what i asked them

How are 2 people from 2 locations allowed in at the same time? Why wouldnt I be sent a security alert at an attempt at log in? Why no password reset email?

Their response was basically we have no protocols in regards to the above aside from password change. We send a password change when it is requested

This is why I know this was an employee. If they truly do let numerous players to log in at the same time from different locations then that is a massive security flaw.

The have claimed no responsibility and told me their decision is final. "The $1750 was sent to an account in Estonia and you will not be given reimbursement our sincerest apologies"
What a poor do that is.
Literally zero security measures!
 
This is a salutory tale of why it's risky playing at casinos with weak or no jurisdictional framework. Yes, they may have good RTP, bonuses and hitherto be reliable sites in the view of the playing community but when push comes to shove you are in the badlands.

They will be operating from locations remotely and not be under any national fair contract laws, financial protection regulations and obligations regarding data protection and account security. On top of that you have no jurisdictional intervention or equivalent of IBAS etc.

So basically you are on your own and solely reliant on goodwill or arbitrary decisions by the site in question.
 
This is what i asked them

How are 2 people from 2 locations allowed in at the same time? Why wouldnt I be sent a security alert at an attempt at log in? Why no password reset email?

Their response was basically we have no protocols in regards to the above aside from password change. We send a password change when it is requested

This is why I know this was an employee. If they truly do let numerous players to log in at the same time from different locations then that is a massive security flaw.

The have claimed no responsibility and told me their decision is final. "The $1750 was sent to an account in Estonia and you will not be given reimbursement our sincerest apologies"

Do you have the bitcoin address it was sent to? Are there other transactions similar in time frame?

If I was you I'd be screaming from the rooftops about this, and letting everyone know on every forum/x account/gamdom page that not only was your crypto stolen but also that Gamdom didn't give two shits about it.
 
Do you have the bitcoin address it was sent to? Are there other transactions similar in time frame?

If I was you I'd be screaming from the rooftops about this, and letting everyone know on every forum/x account/gamdom page that not only was your crypto stolen but also that Gamdom didn't give two shits about it.
This is exactly what I will be doing tomorrow if they do not reimburse me. I gave them 3 days. I realize it is a weekend so management may not be in. I dont know. But I dont care. Its not my problem. its theirs.

I will also be funding an advertising campaign against their casino. I will post the details of everything that occured and then pay to have the post boosted. This way it doesnt just get seen by a few hundred people. It gets seen by the entire gambling community social media. I can write tags and pay to boost the post so its directed at online players and millions of views.

If this casino wants to steal from me/or have such bad security and not act proper... they will pay the price of doing this.

They thought I was some random idiot I guess. They will be very sorry they did this if I am not paid back.

At a point it no longer becomes about the money.

I am furious I sat there and watched them steal my money and I couldnt do anything about it. That feeling is not a good feeling. So I am coming from a place of bitterness and anger.

As for the BTC address. The only thing they told me it was sent to a brand new crypto address.
 
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… I am furious I sat there and watched them steal my money and I couldnt do anything about it. That feeling is not a good feeling. So I am coming from a place of bitterness and anger.
@lockinlove : May I suggest a PAB on this? It might be an opportunity to request some info that wouldn’t otherwise be available.

- Max
 
If you're a bent employee on chat or associated with someone who is, what better opportunity than when a player indicates they are just about to empty their account? Perfect cover for when they complain the balance is gone, the chat log to endorse the activity...
 
If you're a bent employee on chat or associated with someone who is, what better opportunity than when a player indicates they are just about to empty their account? Perfect cover for when they complain the balance is gone, the chat log to endorse the activity...
Exactly. 100% Exactly. As soon as it happened I knew right away this was the case. I was super pissy with chat because their moderator banned me and called me a beggar. While I was sitting there with almost 2k. And anytime I play there i deposit $500-$1000. Oh ya...I need a $2 tip real bad.

They told me they are contacting the moderator team and upper management to discuss. Not long after this happened. Probably within 10-20 minutes my money was stolen. So it was a moderator, an employee friend of the moderator or an upper management person.

Ive submitted the PAB so Max can get involved and see what they say to him.
 

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