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cyprean VS CBMsport.com

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by cyprean, Aug 1, 2013.

    Aug 1, 2013
  1. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    After getting the above email I try to withdraw but for some reason their system does not let me and I contact them. The next day my balance is 0, and I ask what is going on, and they say my balance has expired. :eek2: The bonus funds there apparently expire in 2 days, but once I was told I could withdraw, this did not cross my mind.


    Now after trying to solve the issue with them thru email for 3 or so days ending multiple emails, they would only credit my account 15% back of the original withdrawable balance. :mad:


    I find the situation unacceptable and hope it gets resolved.
     
  2. Aug 1, 2013
  3. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    It is kind of ironic that the affiliate manager made me a VIP player AFTER removing the winnings from my account.

    It's like "You know, we promised you the money, and we are in the wrong, but we dont want to pay winnings, but you can deposit again"
     
  4. Aug 1, 2013
  5. gpitileac

    gpitileac Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Affiliate Manager - B2b Manager
    Location:
    malta
    Dear Player , after you received the e-mail mentioning that "Tomorrow morning you can withdraw you funds" which it was a big misscomunication between our departments , i have e-mailed you the following day ( after 13hours more exact ) that you cannot withdraw until you finish your wagering Requirements .

    Also we have advised you with the remaining wager pointing out as well that the bonus will expire if you don't continue wagering . Therefore , the bonus expired 3rd day Wednesday not 2nd day Tuesday , due to T&C of the bonus which had a validity of 2 Days . After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire .


    Also we never told you to deposit again , As a sign of good will we offered to give you another chance giving you 500 E + which after transferring to casino you will have a 200% Bonus respective 1.500 E to play and fulfill the wagering. ( Although you have been repeatably threatening us with submitting a complaint and adding our Casino to the Rogue Section in CasinoMeister.

    The amount that you had in your account still had around 20.000 E left to be wagered , thing that we constantly mentioning in our conversation true e-mail .


    I will contact a CasinoMeister Representative and i will forward him all the conversations between our Department and hereby player .

    Regards

    Gabi Pitileac
     
  6. Aug 1, 2013
  7. The Viking

    The Viking Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    chef
    Location:
    Faroe Islands
    Do players really go that low, to threat casinos in that way:eek:
     
  8. Aug 1, 2013
  9. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    Dear Gabi


    Your support clearly told me that I could withdraw. You did not tell me that you would take my winnings away at any point until it happened, nor that they will expire. Having a policy where you confiscate funds after 2 days is not something that a reliable casino would do, especially after your support said I will get paid. You are not telling the truth when you write "After our e-mail from Tuesday we have repeatably mentioned that the bonus money will expire ." - you did not warn me about this, and nevertheless you should never do this as you have said that you will already pay me.

    Afterwards as an act of good faith I offered you to return the original funds and wager more. You did not, but added only a fraction of my original balance.

    Only after I said that your casinos tricks are unacceptable and other players need to be warned, you started giving somewhat relevant replies. I never said that I could add you to the rogue list, and that would be absurd, I dont make those judgements. I can only tell what happened, and players can make their own judgement.

    Hiding relevant T&C on your bonus page, and then having roguish 2 day balance confiscation rules, which work quite well as your support takes time before answering to question, I wonder how many balances have been confiscated because players need to contact your support to get relevant information, and it can easily take 2 days before this information is fully received via back-and-forth e-mails.

    However, once I was told I was going to get paid, I wasnt expected that your bonus expiry rule would remove all my winnings, which were supposedly be cleared and safe. If you are able to return my original balance so that I can wager more, I will consider the issue settled. Making me a VIP and giving me fancy reloads after confiscating my funds isnt something that makes me happy.
     
  10. Aug 1, 2013
  11. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    Considering you've been a member since 2006 I hope you know the proper way to go about handling this. I see the rep has now responded to you here as well.

    This conversation that has now started should either be in PMs, or the process of a PAB should be started, preferably at the conclusion of those PMs.

    The rep is new but as a rep should know the rules, You however as a long standing member have no excuse.
     
  12. Aug 1, 2013
  13. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    I havent been active here a while so my apologizies if I have overlooked something. In any case, every player who considers playing at CBMSport should know that the casino has the 2 day confiscation rule, and that should be publicly discussed here, even if this case gets handled thru PMs.

    Gpitileac, the rep here, seems to be the same person who reversed the supports decision of me getting paid and caused my funds to get removed. I have been exchanging emails with him earlier, with no results. That is why I dont see sending a PM here doing a whole lot of much. I am looking into submitting a PaB.
     
  14. Aug 2, 2013
  15. gpitileac

    gpitileac Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Affiliate Manager - B2b Manager
    Location:
    malta

    Good Morning Everyone ,

    Dear player , When you sign up in a casino you are obliged to read the T&C "which where under the Section Help>Rules>Promotions & Bonuses section . And Also each bonus has a Validity time , which in your case it was of 2 DAYS .

    We did not CONFISCATE any winnings the bonus EXPIRED which is totally different , on each website/casino/forum etc , where there is a promotion , you will always see " Bonus money Validity " .

    The e-mail that you received informing you that in the morning your funds will be released as i mentioned it was a miss communication between our departments ( and we repeatedly admitted and apologized for it ) . When i got in the morning at the office i started investigated , and what casino is releasing the funds of a player without finishing the Wager Requirements . Monday , after sending e-mails to our support , you where informed that playing "Table Games - 100h Jack's or better " will not contribute the same as Slots , also you received the list with the games contribution factors therefore you knew what games you can play to fulfill the wagering requirements.


    Again , Regarding the "bonus expiry rule" , please note this is not a RULE , it's the way the campaign is set up . Once set up we cannot alter the promotion .

    Dear player you have exchanged several e-mails with our support on Monday , and starting from Tuesday till yesterday even more altough the threatening phrases where always in your e-mails .

    PS. You cannot say that a casino confiscated your money when :
    - The "money " where actually BONUS MONEY which had some requirements to fulfill in this case you had 3.338 Euro with remaining wager around 20.000 E .
    - When you register with a Casino and deposit 10 Euro or in your case 500 E , it's in your interest to READ the T&C of the CASINO & The promotions that you aim to receive .
    - The T&C where not Hidden , A simple click on HELP > GENERAL RULES > PROMOTIONS& BONUSES ( please be advised each casino has it's own layout , but one thing stays the same , and that is THE RULES SECTION .
    - Regarding to " Only after I said that your casinos tricks are unacceptable and other players need to be warned, you started giving somewhat relevant replies. I never said that I could add you to the rogue list, and that would be absurd, I dont make those judgements. I can only tell what happened, and players can make their own judgement. " Please be advised that we have the e-mails and we will give it to the CasinoMeister Representatives and you did send us those e-mails . You had more than 13h to continue and playing but you still kept on sending us e-mails and accusing us of stealing your funds although you knew that the games you where playing ( and most of the players know that such high risk table games have a different or even 0 contribution factor to the wager ) .

    With Regards

    Gabi Pitileac
     
  16. Aug 2, 2013
  17. smokeeye

    smokeeye Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Salesman
    Location:
    Norway
    Maybe I have overlooked something, but why do you share numbers of balance/deposit(s)?
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 2, 2013
  19. gpitileac

    gpitileac Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Affiliate Manager - B2b Manager
    Location:
    malta
    Hi ,

    Just to make it clear , so everybody who reads the post knows and makes their own idea about this post . I don't somebody likes to be accused of stealing and other serious accusations especially when a players accuses us of stealing his funds " which we are talking about BONUS MONEY that expired because the player didn't finished his wagering " .

    PS. I am now in contact with CasinoMeister and i will provide him with all e-mails , so that the Webmaster/Administrators of this forum can make their own decision .



    Regards

    Gabi Pitileac
     
  20. Aug 2, 2013
  21. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    Dear Gabi

    I never wrote the "s"-word here in the public forum. I used the term "remove".

    In personal and private discussion I might have used other terms, but that shouldnt really change the core issue at all. I apologize if you got offended by my emails. I was promised to be paid, then my whole balance was removed. I was offered a fraction of my balance back, but I would prefer if I get my original balance back and wager whatever reasonable amount.
     
  22. Aug 2, 2013
  23. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    All very well, but YOU (or another employee of the company) made a mistake, not the player. It is therefore the casino that should "eat" the consequences of said mistake, and it will be a harsh lesson in making sure sloppy CS does not get tolerated by management.

    The real issue is that after the wrong information was given, the player had a mere 13 hours to figure out it was wrong, which is a very short timescale indeed when it isn't just a case of playing, but one of resolving an issue via email.

    I see many cases where casinos show zero tolerance of genuine mistakes made by players, so casinos shouldn't expect more lenient treatment from players.

    The 2 days should be reset to start from the time the player discovered that a mistake had been made and corrected by the casino. It could be taken to start from when the player read the email apologising for the mistake and giving the correct information.

    Having such 2 day promos is an accident waiting to happen, as there is so little room for mistakes and miscommunications to be corrected.

    It is such an important factor in this case as this isn't merely a 2 day window for claiming a bonus, which is the most common method of running promotions, but it has to be claimed, wagered, and withdrawn within 48 hours.

    It is certainly worth warning players of this atypical rule structure in this casino's offers, so that they not only look for the expiry date, but understands that it isn't just a claim window, but a completion of WR window.

    This doesn't look like it was JUST an expiry of a bonus either, more a removal of the entire balance, including a significant chunk of winnings. This is guaranteed to go down like the proverbial lead balloon with a player to whom the amount lost is a significant chunk, and making them VIP by way of compensation could actually backfire, as it did in this case.

    The worst I have seen in terms of completing a WR is 7 days (until now), and I think this is pretty tight. The shortest claim window I have seen is up to midnight on the same day, but actual wagering could be done the next day.
     
    4 people like this.
  24. Aug 2, 2013
  25. gpitileac

    gpitileac Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Affiliate Manager - B2b Manager
    Location:
    malta

    Hi ,

    I appreciate your comments we take it as a constructive one .

    We/The casino admitted that the mistake was ours due to the communication between our departments .

    The Promos are not 2 DAYS , the MONEY validity is 2 days . for that specific welcome bonus that the player received .

    i Have sent all the e-mails to CasinoMeister , to have a look .

    The phrase : " This doesn't look like it was JUST an expiry of a bonus either, more a removal of the entire balance, including a significant chunk of winnings. This is guaranteed to go down like the proverbial lead balloon with a player to whom the amount lost is a significant chunk, and making them VIP by way of compensation could actually backfire, as it did in this case. "

    The player received a copy from our blackened where he saw ( when the bonus was received , how much he wagered , and when it expired ) .


    We offered the player his deposit money + a 200% deposit bonus , although his initial welcome bonus was of 100% . We offered him to start over and play . Unfortunately i cannot show to everyone our conversation , for sure after your opinions will be divided / changed .

    Our Support team is available 7days/week 16h / day . The last e-mail sent to the player was Monday Evening around 22:00 , The second day in the morning i have replied to the player informing him that there was a mistake from our end a miss communication between our departments and informed the user to continue playing to fulfill the wager . Also pointing out the games where he will have 100% contribution factor , hereafter achieving faster the wagering requirements.

    I will wait for CasinoMeister to take a look over the e-mails and reply .

    PS. -The bonus expired
    -We offered to give the deposit money +200% deposit bonus and start over
    - Regarding the 2Days validity , each casino has it's right to create the campaigns as they consider attractive as long as they make the promotions t&c visible ( which in this case the wager requirements among with the validity of the bonus where visible ) .
    - When a player signs up with a Casino it's in their interest to Read the T&C and RULES of the casino .


    Regards

    Gabi Pitileac
     
  26. Aug 2, 2013
  27. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Why would you deposit at a casino with such rules in the first place?

    Sounds like someone didn't read the terms before playing, which is asking for trouble.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Aug 2, 2013
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    It's not made easy to navigate to the relevant terms and conditions. It took me a while and a few false leads just to find this, and it's hardly a proper set of terms and conditions for a sign up offer.

    There is a link to other terms, but this just dumps you to a general page that does not give the kind of information a player needs to evaluate before making a deposit.

    Where are terms such as allowed games, max bet limits, a definitive meaning of the phrase "Bonus Money Validity: 2 days", and how it is implemented.

    There is so little in the terms that players are reliant on swift and ACCURATE responses from CS. There is also little with which to cross check a response from CS for accuracy.

    So, after voiding over €3000, the casino thought the player would be satisfied by getting their deposit returned and double the original bonus added, plus VIP status, as compensation for the cock up made by the casino.

    It's no wonder the player didn't just meekly accept this, and any operator who thinks such an offer would defuse such an issue needs their head examined.

    It seems the full nature of this offer is not made available to players until they have signed up and made their deposit, which is the kind of thing that a rogue casino would do, it's a form of bait & switch.

    From what I can read, ALL games are eligible, and all at 100% weighting, as there is nothing stated to the contrary.

    It is starting to look like the OP DID actually think they had met the WR based on the incomplete information shown allowing the assumption that all games count 100%, so thought nothing amiss when they later received the email that they would get paid the next day.

    It then turns out that a "bait & switch" begins, with the player told they have more to wager, and that in fact the games they played were not 100% weighted. Presumably, this triggered an email exchange, and as we all know, the advice given to players in general is NOT to play further during a dispute resolution process.

    I would expect, upon visiting a site, to easily find a link to "terms and conditions" and "promotions" on the main page. I found neither on the main page for CBMsport. In my view, the terms ARE "buried", and even when unearthed, are incomplete. The promotions are also hard to find, residing in a scrolling "news blog", and not necessarily being in view when this is glanced at.

    Any claim that players would receive the full details via email is bullshit, as to do this BEFORE a player even signs up would require the use of spam, and players NEED this information BEFORE they sign up to the contract of the SUB.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Aug 2, 2013
  31. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    I usually try to fulfill the wagering requirements in one session if at all possible. Once I was told I could withdraw, I did not think that they would do this to me.

    So everyone who plays there should know that even if you get the green light to withdraw that your money might not be safe.

    They are offering me a partition of the money back, but for some reason they are unable to credit the original amount back. This strikes me as a little weird that they can credit my account with a smaller amount back, but not the full amount. I would think the admins could credit my account with whatever amount they wanted, and then manually check later that the wagering has been done before withdrawals would be accepted.

    That would be fair to all IMO.
     
  32. Aug 2, 2013
  33. gpitileac

    gpitileac Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Affiliate Manager - B2b Manager
    Location:
    malta
    Hi ,

    I saw that you copy the t&c of the welcome bonus , why didn't you copied the last phrase , with a direct link to the general rules .
    If you noticed , the promotions is not that hard to find as mentioned and detailed bellow :
    cyprean VS CBMsport.com: promotion 2.jpg,Aug 2, 2013 cyprean VS CBMsport.com: promotions.jpg,Aug 2, 2013


    I don't really see where the terms are Burred.
    Also we do not have a LIMIT OF BET , which not many casinos are doing that . And in the HELP SECTION > GENERAL RULES > PROMOTIONS & BONUSES , there is this phrase : 8.7 - Kindly note that the deposit bonus campaigns are created with custom values, kindly ask our customer support to provide you with list of games and their wagering contribution factor. . If a player wants to find out the contribution , just a simple e-mail can solve it .

    PS> Nobody voided the 3338 BONUS MONEY . As each player knows that the bonus money REMAINS a bonus money until they fulfill the wagering requirements in the limits of the bonus Money Validity .

    Regards

    Gabi Pitileac
     
  34. Aug 2, 2013
  35. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Sun/Moon
    As an admin you can easily add those links afterwards

    cyprean VS CBMsport.com: LZPLtuN.jpg,Aug 2, 2013
    Here is an old one without the link (if it even matters):

    You must register/login in order to see the link.


    How often does this happen that the player funds get removed per due to a) 2 day rule b) confusing support who says the money can be withdrawn c) hidden terms, that only can be received via email?

    How often do you make them a VIP and offer them a reload but not their money back?
     
  36. Aug 2, 2013
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You just dropped yourself right in it.

    You admit that this relevant information is intentionally unavailable to new players BEFORE they register, so how can they do their "due diligence" of the rules before parting with their money and details?

    It proves that the information I was looking for is intentionally unavailable, hence a "bait & switch" is pretty easy to pull on a player who makes their decision from the information published on the site.

    The short 2 day window also pushes the player into a "play first, ask questions later" mindset, so what happened here does look like a rogue casino "stunt" having been pulled.

    1) player signs up and deposits.
    2) due to the short 2 day window, player just gets on and plays.
    3) Player thinks WR is complete, and so seeks confirmation from CS.
    4) CS confirms WR is complete, and that money will be paid.
    5) Money just disappears.

    Having received confirmation, there is no reason for the player to revisit the matter until the money has been paid, hence they are not looking for a later "bait and switch" email. When one is received though, they are hardly going to just get on and play, they are going to dispute the matter, and in the mean time NOT play.
    The remainder of the 2 day window was nowhere near enough time to allow for a fair dispute resolution process, even the one on this forum which is:-

    1) Contact the rep - allow 48 hours for the rep to respond
    2) Submit a PAB

    In this case, the money was already gone by the time stage 1 was underway, and the player was deprived the chance of a PAB resolution as, according to the casino, it is now "impossible" to turn the clock back.

    What they rep is really blaming the OP for is not being bullied into accepting the unilateral resolution of the casino, but instead sticking to pursuing a proper dispute resolution process.

    With no time allowed to follow correct procedure, the operator was asking for this to be pursued in the way it was, even with statements that could be construed as threats. For the player, they had to use some pretty strong tactics because they only had 13 hours to pursue the matter before it was too late - correct procedure was not an option.

    Here, a dispute is not resolved until:-

    1) The player accepts the resolution from the casino, or
    2) Max has processed the PAB and issued his ruling.

    Being bullied into accepting a "take it or leave it" offer from the casino does not count.


    However, it is NOT "too late" for a PAB, even though the casino claims it is now "impossible" to return the balance. The casino seems to know this as they are actively prepared to forward everything to Bryan to defend their case.

    What if Max DID rule in favour of the player having their balance restored? Would Max also be told "it's not possible", and thus risk the issue of a "casino warning"?

    It seems it isn't impossible, it's just another casino tactic. They are hoping that the player will fail on a redo, even with a bigger bonus (or perhaps BECAUSE of a bigger bonus), and thus they end up turning a win of some €3000 for the player into a win of some €500 for the casino.

    The warning is not so much about a 2 day window, it's the fact that the rules are withheld from the player until they commit themselves to playing with the bonus, and even then they have to think of contacting CS, rather than simply playing based on the information shown.

    I am sure you don't:rolleyes:


    But I am just as certain that a player is NOT going to get paid if they chuck a massive bet on Roulette to double their entire bankroll before going on to complete WR. Where other casinos have specific rules, I would expect CBM to utilise things like "spirit of the bonus" as a means to enforce a max bet rule after the fact where any player employs such a tactic
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Aug 2, 2013
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    It's 7 days in that original too, not 2.

    This would have been far less likely to have happened with a 7 day limit, hence a lack of complaints from others.

    It shows there was no link at all, so there was no way to direct players to even the vague general terms, let alone anything more specific.

    The general terms CANNOT be reached from the main page either, players need to find a link from somewhere else. I only found the link when I found the current incarnation of the offer, which oddly enough is the same, so it seems someone has been in, reducing the time from 7 days to 2, and adding the link, between the 19th June and now.

    This could be in response to "other complaints" that have not gone public.


    other casinos also produce "custom" sign up offers that run for similar timescales. They also have no problems in publishing the relevant "custom" rules for each of these promotions in an honest and transparent manner.

    The nature of these hidden terms is that the casino can make them up after the fact, and claim they are the ones that originally applied. There is no way for either party to prove what the terms were at the point the contract was established, which is usually the point at which a bonus is added to a deposit and a first bet is placed.


    However, if players get together and share, there IS a way to prove whether or not rogue tactics are being employed here.
     

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