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Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

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Random#rs said:
I swear I have to use a whip to control him.
Click to expand...

I have that problem with men all the time. :D ;)

K, back on topic....sorry, but you put it out there, lol.
 
There's an awful lot of skirting the issue and blowing hot air round and about the actual important bits - mainly on that other board...

Never one to sit on the fence - this, imho, is a definite ploy from someone blatantly (and absurdly) avoiding the point.

Cipher -- do yourself the world of good and answer three very easy, straightforward questions:

1) Why haven't you given this man his money back?
2) Why haven't you given this man his money back?
3) Why haven't you given this man his money back?

Hey Cipher, if you really need the cash - Sunny Group are looking for a payments manager... Sounds like you're ideally qualified.

Idiot.
 
Call me a silly goose if you'd like, but doesn't the claim that Bodog welcomes people to come in and try out the Cipher system speak volumes about wheather it works or not? I mean if the casino is not worried about it, then how good can it be?
 
tim5ny said:
Call me a silly goose if you'd like, but doesn't the claim that Bodog welcomes people to come in and try out the Cipher system speak volumes about wheather it works or not? I mean if the casino is not worried about it, then how good can it be?
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Whether or not Cipher's BJ system works or doesn't work..is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not Cipher accepted 20K from this guy as an investment. If he did, where's the money?

1. The Cipher system doesn't work and there were no profits made off the 20K.

2. The Cipher system does work and Cipher made a killing with the 20K.

3. The initial 20K investment was never used for playing BJ or any other game.

If what WB posted is true, Cipher still has $17,600 of the original amount given to him. Regardless of what it was used for, or whether any money was made off of it, he needs to return this man's money.

It's too easy to get sidetracked with what the money was used for, or if there was a profit made from it. Pretend it was a straight up loan from one person to another. There is a balance owing of $17,600 (at least).

If we have all the relevant facts.
 
If you give someone money to play blackjack, don't you know for certain there is a chance the player will run into some bad luck and lose it all? Was this really presented by Cipher as a safe investment (can't lose your principal under any circumstances)?

One other thing, where is the text of the emails where you set up the arrangement? You give emails begining where you started trying to collect. Why don't you show the earlier emails?
 
Cipher's Offer

This was taken from the Blackjackinfo.com site. Cipher has not denied that he definitely owes WB the sum of $17,600. They've done a good job there of holding him to the facts. He has just posted an offer that he says is good for one hour only.

Posted by Cipher at Blackjackinfo.com

No, there's nothing civil about it ZEN. Tell you what I'm going to be leaving Visalia in about an hour and 10 minutes fo a nice relaxing weekend at the BUICK Invitational.

This is a one time offer good until 3:00 PM Pacific time and it's not negotiable.

I'll agree to pay Liquid Chips (aka Tim Bell) a total of $17,600.00 the sum that is equal to all funds on deposit from the aforementioned Tim Bell with me at the rate of $500.00 (Five Hundred and 00/100's) on the first and fifteenth day of each month until the total sum of $17,600.00 is paid in full to TIM BELL and no others.

You've got an hour.

Cipher

He made that post at 4:58. That's all fine and dandy, but what guarantee is there that he will even stick to it? And at that rate, it will take WB a year and a half to get his money back. Anyone have an opinion?
 
I think he's trying to buy time. What's the statute of limitations for something like this? What says he makes a few payments and quits?

Although, the more payments the better..

And on the other hand, I think he just hung himself. He admits fully that he owes the money and wants to make payments. No judge will throw that out of court.


I would get with the admin of the site and get the IP info of who posted it, just to make sure it was cipher.
 
winbig said:
I think he's trying to buy time. What's the statute of limitations for something like this? What says he makes a few payments and quits?

Although, the more payments the better..

And on the other hand, I think he just hung himself. He admits fully that he owes the money and wants to make payments. No judge will throw that out of court.

I would get with the admin of the site and get the IP info of who posted it, just to make sure it was cipher.
Click to expand...

Excellent question Winbig re: the statute of limitations. And excellent points.
 
winbig said:
I think he's trying to buy time
Win is correct. If what is read on the forums is true, this is the classic signs of stalling due to incapability of paying.

It's eerily similar to the pyramid schemes in the mid/late 80s(yes I was alive back then, I am that old).

My advice to those who have been monetarily affected by this is to take immediate action. Every days that goes by lessens your chance of getting re-paid or file legal action.

Again, good luck to those affected.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I'm sorry, but if I wasn't sure he was guilty before, I am now. His latest reply to the poster Zengrift was to ridicule him for incorrectly spelling capacity (capicity). This from the guy (who supposedly knows the law) who just the other day used the term "deformation of character" as opposed to defamation. It's like watching someone sink slowly into a pool of quicksand.

WB, I really hope you can recover something out of this but it certainly looks like the majority of posters here are correct...he just doesn't have the money, yours or anyone else's. And you can't get blood from a stone. Let us know what you decide to do.
 
WestBowl I am truely truely sorry about the passing of your mother. I know the feeling. I lost my father on Oct 28!

DAMN YOU CIPHER. I RESPECTED YOU AND ALOT OF THE OLDER CATS ON HERE! WHAT YOU DID TO THIS MAN WAS DAMN RIGHT WRONG!!! WHO KNOWS YOU MAY HAVE EVEN CAUSED HARD SHIP ON HIS MOTHER AND CAUSE HERE TO WORRY AND GO INTO SHOCK! I AM SO UPSET ABOUT THIS.

Westbowl I hope you've learned a hard costly lesson. And I hope you get your money back one way or another.
 
goatmouth said:
I just contacted my lawyer. The statute of limitations for a fraud suit in CA is 1 year from the time the fraud occurs.
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And I'd bet (poor choice of words I know), that Cipher is also well aware of that fact. So WB agrees to Cipher's arrangement, Cipher makes maybe four payments then defaults again. By this time the statute of limitations has expired. This all started in March 2006 correct? So that would be the date the fraud occurred?
 
Pinababy69 said:
And I'd bet (poor choice of words I know), that Cipher is also well aware of that fact. So WB agrees to Cipher's arrangement, Cipher makes maybe four payments then defaults again. By this time the statute of limitations has expired. This all started in March 2006 correct? So that would be the date the fraud occurred?
Click to expand...

Yep, so cipher pays $1,000 - $2,000 tops - and says FU for the other $15/16,400
 
winbig said:
Yep, so cipher pays $1,000 - $2,000 tops - and says FU for the other $15/16,400
Click to expand...

I promised myself I wouldn't do it, but I'm going to post over there. No one has mentioned the statute of limitations, and it's a subject that deserves to be brought up.
 
WB... I'm so very sorry to hear of the passing of your Mom.



The person ( Cipher ) in topic here has done a wrong. It's clear he can't even hold true to the "agreement/understanding" you two started out with.

So I think the chances of him holding true to it, yet again... are nil to none.

Mr. Cipher could really be in some hot water, if what is stated to be true. This is a scam, and this scam took place via the net?.. which would it not involve the feds?!

The fact that you have gone to this length of time trying to collect ... and the run around that you have had to endure..... is unacceptable!

It would have been different if Cipher would have came to you and said... "hey look, I don't have the money, can I do payments of some sorts until its paid off."... But, he didn't. He gave you ( and sounds like many others ) the complete run around.

I hate <bleep> scammers!!
 
Pinababy69 said:
And I'd bet (poor choice of words I know), that Cipher is also well aware of that fact. So WB agrees to Cipher's arrangement, Cipher makes maybe four payments then defaults again. By this time the statute of limitations has expired. This all started in March 2006 correct? So that would be the date the fraud occurred?
Click to expand...

Yep, IMHO the way to preserve the possibility of recovery is to file a lawsuit before the statute of limitations runs.
 
If any of this business was done over the phone, you could include the FBI in this investigation. Can we say WIRE ACT?!!??

:lolup:

Hell, I'm sure it could be the wire act even if anything wasn't done over the phone....I'm sure there's some wires in them thar toobs sumwhere.

Sad, but true :)

But seriously, using the phone to conduct your scam = federal offense. Same goes for anything that involved the USPS.
 
winbig said:
But seriously, using the phone to conduct your scam = federal offense. Same goes for anything that involved the USPS.
Click to expand...

You're right about the USPS, and that's the advice that's being given to WB, to contact the Postal Inspector as a starting point.

BTW, Cipher has officially withdrawn his offer. Pity.
 
Spot on Miss Pina. To whomever is wronged here, activly go after what is yours, weather it'd be direct bank transfers or hands-on deposits long lost. Either way, take action to protect whatever money is yours.

This is what casinomeister is all about. This is why we gather on an anonymous website to prevent casino and webmasters blunders which affects players.

Please people, ACT against internet scams, whichever form they may take and let us other players know what's up. Like in this very thread...

Do this again and often, please.

All the best, have a great weekend!

Swede
 
Other recourse????

Would it make sense to get the DA involved? If he really is scamming like everybody claims he is then my guess he is prepared for something like this (ie no assets in his name, no money, lost it all gambling, etc.). Wouldn't it just make sense to turn him over to the D of J and have them pursue? If the money is gone, which I am convinced it is, at least others can be saved from making the same mistake.
 
At the very least, let's hope that he won't be "trolling for marks" at Casinomeister anymore. What legal action WB and any other affected parties choose to take (or not) is entirely up to them. I wish them the best.

With regards to Cipher, as my friend Swampwitch likes to say....karma is a real bitch (even more than me, ha ha).
 
goatmouth said:
Would it make sense to get the DA involved? If he really is scamming like everybody claims he is then my guess he is prepared for something like this (ie no assets in his name, no money, lost it all gambling, etc.). Wouldn't it just make sense to turn him over to the D of J and have them pursue? If the money is gone, which I am convinced it is, at least others can be saved from making the same mistake.
Click to expand...

Cipher has a nice house with a pool in the back. Another person who has known Bruce for a few years says he does has a lot of money. How much? Don't know. But if his postings of his BoDog sessions is to be believed, he has recently had at least $50,000 just at BoDog.
 
Westland Bowl said:
Cipher has a nice house with a pool in the back. Another person who has known Bruce for a few years says he does has a lot of money. How much? Don't know. But if his postings of his BoDog sessions is to be believed, he has recently had at least $50,000 just at BoDog.
Click to expand...

Well, Bodog wouldn't be able to comment publicly on Cipher's play or gaming sessions or wins, but I am curious as to how they feel having their reputable site in any way associated with this guy. Hmmmm....I've given myself an idea.

Bodog can't stop him from advertising the fact that he plays there, but they sure could pull his advertising and/or his affiliate account.
 
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It's too bad nobody ever tried to expose Cipher as a system scammer. It's too bad nobody ever made posts on an internet online gambling related messageboard summarizing Cipher's ludicrous claims related to online BJ, trying to show people that he's obviously a fraud.

<sigh>
 
I'd be willing to donate webhosting space/traffic and possibly a forum to warn people of this guy, until you are paid.

PM me if you're interested :thumbsup:

PS: The hosting company is in the UK, so no fear of big brother ;)

Hmmm is anyone interested in helping with a site for the sole purpose of warning people of *all* scams running around the gaming community?
 
winbig said:
I'd be willing to donate webhosting space/traffic and possibly a forum to warn people of this guy, until you are paid.

PM me if you're interested :thumbsup:

PS: The hosting company is in the UK, so no fear of big brother ;)

Hmmm is anyone interested in helping with a site for the sole purpose of warning people of *all* scams running around the gaming community?
Click to expand...

It's a great idea Winbig, but be careful. Not all claims of fraud are legit, as we witness on this board fairly regularly. It could be a great source of info, but take care to make sure you don't get hoodwinked yourself, by anyone with ulterior motives. As we've seen from today's events, a person's reputation can be damaged beyond repair. I think what happened today was warranted, and Cipher brought it on himself. But there are also innocent people who get accused of things they are not guilty of. Just an opinion folks, before anyone jumps down my throat.

That being said, you know you can count on me if you need anything.
 
aodat2 said:
winbig, if it really takes $5k to get back the $20k, I'd definitely do it. This is not only because I want the money back (if it was mine) but because I want to teach him a lesson NEVER to cheat people like that and also to stop him from ever doing things like that ever again!

WB, I'm not an extremely wealthy person but I am sure I could spare $50 or so to aid in your cause of a lawsuit against him. I'm very sure that members on this forum would be more than happy to support you on your lawsuit as well. (I hope)
Click to expand...

I hope that your generous offer would not be needed. Bruce/Cipher has admitted that he owes at least the principal but he still won't pay it in full in one payment. He wants to spread it out over 1 1/2 YEARS! We'll see if he can mend his ways yet.
 
Pinababy69 said:
It's a great idea Winbig, but be careful. Not all claims of fraud are legit, as we witness on this board fairly regularly. It could be a great source of info, but take care to make sure you don't get hoodwinked yourself, by anyone with ulterior motives. As we've seen from today's events, a person's reputation can be damaged beyond repair. I think what happened today was warranted, and Cipher brought it on himself. But there are also innocent people who get accused of things they are not guilty of. Just an opinion folks, before anyone jumps down my throat.

That being said, you know you can count on me if you need anything.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole until I saw signed documents and so forth to prove that Cipher indeed owes this money......can those be produced?
 
winbig said:
What? The big O? :lolup: :lolup: :lolup: :lolup:
Click to expand...

Major brain freeze. Was talking on IM at the same time I was gonna post and reply to a PM. That's three things at once folks. Some days walking and talking are a challenge.

Winbig, you been told today? :D
 
W B, my 1 and only suggestion to you is to get a lawyer or talk to the DA about this. Get their opinion. Use their knowledge if you feel that most of us here on the board are wrong. BUT

1. Do not delay in anything at all
2. Do not let the statute of limitation run out
3. Do not wait till the last minute to start doing stuff
4. Do not make/accept a deal with Cipher
5. Do not say anything that you might regret later

and most of all

DO NOT LET THIS CASE GO WITHOUT CAUSING SOME DAMAGE!!! (I'm sure you know what I mean)

Just remember this famous ole saying :
"Once a thief, always a thief" & "A leopard never changes his spots"
 
This is Criminal not Civil

Westland Bowl, You need to get in touch with the District Attorney as soon as possible and have him persue the charges of:

1. Theft By Deception

and

2. Theft By Conversion......(before the statue of limitations runs out)


These are two major charges that are Felonies in the US with lots of jail time if convicted.

If you can convince the DA to persue this case it should be your best hope of recovering your money or at least some of it if Cipher is convicted.

Most likely he would plead "Nolo contendere" and the jail time sentence would be suspended by the Judge and Cipher would be placed on Probation until he had fully paid back all monies awared in your case.

Also if you can get Three people together that have been scammed and wronged by his actions you can then file a Class Action Law Suit which is a Federal case.

Hope this helps and Good Luck...:cool:
 
WB do not lose the first fly to CA..................c.mon.
Im a good guy, but I would be sleeping with him untill he would pay me.
There are times in life where you have to decide.
No way ,anybody, can drink my children milk.
 
Cipher is a crook

bpb said:
It's too bad nobody ever tried to expose Cipher as a system scammer. It's too bad nobody ever made posts on an internet online gambling related messageboard summarizing Cipher's ludicrous claims related to online BJ, trying to show people that he's obviously a fraud.

<sigh>
Click to expand...

That's exactly right. And some of us knew better. This isn't watchdog stuff. Watchdogs keep the casinos straight. But those that have a history of gaming knew this Cipher System was all bunk. I knew it and should have said so.

You said so in an earlier thread. You said:

"Cipher's system (program, theory, etc.) does nothing to change the house advantage of the games you are playing. If there was a pattern to be exploited in an online casino's RNG, you would be able to clearly describe and define your edge in mathematical terms.

Do not fool yourself, you are losing because you are playing negative expectation games. You are supposed to lose in the long run unless you do something to create an advantageous situtation (through bonuses, promotions, mistakes in a casino's implementation, etc.)

The only greed you're exhibiting is believing that a nebulous system is creating an edge for you. Rule of thumb ... if you can't precisely define that edge, it doesn't exist."

Well said, Bpb.

BonusLover said so loud and clear at WOL. Zengrifter and a few others did at Blackjackinfo.com. I see Qfit said so - that would be be the developer of Casino Verite software - probably the best card counting software around.

Above, people kept saying there was two sides to this story. No there isn't. A person got scamed. That's all there is to it. And this Cipher system is a bunch of crap - expensive crap - but still crap.

Stanford.
 
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