Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

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Westland Bowl

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Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

Pulling Back the Curtain


Fear and Trembling

Bruce Holway (aka Cipher) was a respectable man, a knowledgeable man in the game of blackjack. He was well known in the world of gambling and sports-betting. He boasts of winning the largest wager in the history of Harrah's casino on a college basketball game then doubling the win at the blackjack tables. Later, he started gambling on online casinos and made his name among the Internet gambling forums. He helped big winners get their money from reluctant online casinos and seemed to be sharp on the legalities of gambling, online and off. He has two of his own websites and has developed the Cipher software for playing online blackjack. He is.....The Wizard of BJ.


Becoming a Cipher disciple

After many sessions of online blackjack, I was suspicious that the draw of the cards were not random. So I searched on the Internet for answers and came upon a posting by Cipher dealing with randomness of online casino blackjack. I started looking up and reading most of Cipher's postings on the Online Players Union, Casinomeister, and Winner Online. I've studied most of the “strands” and “scrolls” of Bruce's blackjack play that showed him winning hundreds and thousands of dollars in many of his blackjack sessions. Eventually, I tried out Bruce's free version of the Cipher software and was hooked. I started winning some blackjack games. Though it wasn't always easy but I gradually started to get the hang of it. I posted a number of times on his GamblingEdge and OPU websites and learned from him and others.

In Spring 2006, in my personal life, my mother had lived with me already for several month after suffering a stroke the year before. Nursing care is expensive and I was concerned that the money for nursing care was going to run out before my mother was back on her own. So I wanted to find a better investment than the pitiful 5% going rate of various investment vehicles.


Rose-Colored Glasses

I remembered from reading Bruce's CipherBlackjack website about him “advising” some 44 people from around the world on a daily basis. So I inquired Bruce about this as I wondered if he was investing other people's money into his apparently successful blackjack play. He agreed that the interest rate that financial institutions pay was really pathetic and we started setting out some terms at which Bruce would pay me on his blackjack play using my money. We eventually agreed that:

He would pay 15% per month on $20,000.00 deposited on account with him. It was payable on the first of each month and recurring on a 30 day basis. He would continue to maintain that schedule as long as the initial $20,000.00 remained on account with him. Again, this would be based on thirty day periods of time so once the funds are deposited with him they cannot be withdrawn for a period of 30 days. All play will originate from the United Kingdom and he will be personally responsible for all payments incident to the agreement.

Later, he wrote:

You can elect to have the $3,000.00 per month that would otherwise be paid to you in the form of interest on account. In that event, the 15% interest would apply to whatever accumulated funds are account.

So this makes our agreement that Cipher will pay 15% accumulated monthly should I desire not to elect to receive a disbursement for any month. Those are damn good terms! But I believe it was possible because.....he was The Wizard Of BJ!!! Actually, if one is to believe the strands and scrolls that Bruce puts on his websites, you'd be convinced that he could do it. I did...after all, he was respected, he didn't hide his address, he just didn't appear to be a scammer. He helped out people get their money from online casinos and from all I've seen, he just looked legit. (Like MC Hammer, as it turned out.)

So in early March 2006, I sent to Bruce $20,000. I received a pro-rated $2,400 at the end of March. Thereafter, I asked him to just add each month's disbursement to the principal and that way the disbursement grows each month.


Keeping The Faith

Several months later, on August 30st, 2006, I asked Cipher to send the September 2006 disbursement since my mother's bank account would be running low in cash by that time. The “interest” for September would be $6,034. Bruce writes:

“With regards your email of even date, please be advised that I've noted those disbursement details on my calendar. With regards the $6,034.00 at the end of September, what is your preferred method of receiving those funds ie: Cashier's Check, Wire Transfer or Neteller?”

Under Which Cup is the Money?


From here on, the story is more like Alice In Wonderland. The only way I can relate what happened here is by presenting to you the emails between me and Bruce in chronological order. Here goes:

Me (Fri 9/29): Hi B.J. Ummmm, just a-wonderin' about that September disbursement. Did everything go ok during this month? Thanks, Tim
Cipher (Fri 9/29): Hi Tim: Yes, everything went well and your $6,034.00 withdrawal will be going out tomorrow or Monday I'm not sure which as it depends when the funds are transferred to my Credit Union account as the Credit Union is not open on the weekends. Hope all is well with you and your Mom and it's good to see you posting on The Gambling Edge. Unfortunately it looks as though Frist was succesful with his legislative efforts. Have a good one. Cipher

* Monday came and went.

Me (Wed 10/4): Hi Cipher, Was I to get that $6K by now? Tim
Cipher (Wed 10/4): Hi Tim: Actually yes. Unfortunately my Credit Union put a hold on my Money Bookers deposit to my Credit Union account that will clear on Friday. My Plan is to send a Cashier's Check by FEDEX on Friday. Or if you like I can send you a personal check today. Let me know which you prefer. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)
Me (Wed 10/4): No, no, that's fine. Friday is good. Just wanted to make sure that it didn't get h-u-n-g up by FedEx or something. [Note: Head-bashing already completed.]

* Didn't get a FEDEX tracking number from Cipher on Friday or Saturday or Sunday.

Me (Mon 10/9):Hi Cipher, I hope the deposit cleared. This morning, there was a FedEx truck to my apartment building that I thought for sure was for me. :-( Let me know the tracking number so that I can keep a lookout for it. Thanks, Tim [Ain't I so damn sweet? Barf]
Cipher (Mon 10/9): Hi Tim:I don't know if the deposit cleared or not as I just got back to Visalia and the Credit Union has been closed the last 3 days. But I'll find out in the morning and email you with a raccking [sic] number then. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)

* I don't hear from Cipher for three days. Why do I have to always initiate conversation here? Disillusionment starting to creep in.

Me (Thurs 10/12): What is the latest on the disbursement? Tim
Cipher (Thurs 10/12): Hi Tim: It will be going out this afternoon and I'll send you the tracking number out this afternoon. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher) [Oh goodie goodie goodie!]

* Why do I have to always initiate conversation here? Oh wait, I already said that. Another two days go by.

Me (Sat 10/14): Hi B.J.My brother is getting nervous about this. Did you send out the disbursement yet? Tim
Cipher (Sat 10/14): Hi Tim: I too am a little concerned as to the amount of time the credit union has taken to clear these latest Money Booker transactions. I checked the Credit Union account (just before emailing this)and those items are showing as cleared now. The Credit Union is not open on the weekend, but now that those items have cleared I'll be able to get them out by FEDEX on Monday. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)

Me (Mon 10/16): Hi Cipher, Should I be watching for the FedEx tomorrow? Tim [Yeah, I know....by now you're wondering if “I” am the one whose brain ain't screwed on right.]
Cipher (Tues 10/17): Hi Tim: I just got back to Visalia this morning but you can look to have it there tomorrow. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher) [Wha?? You were gone? ok.]

* Oooookaaay....at this point I'm getting very concerned [finally!, you say]. I contacted a guy who I've seen on Cipher's GamblingEdge website quite often and seemed to have an inside track into Bruce's operations. I'll call him Richard {not his real name.} I wanted to know if there was anything he could tell me that will make sense of what I was experiencing with Bruce. I was concerned that Bruce was in financial trouble from gambling too much or lost a lot of money in sports-betting or what. Well, Richard, himself, had some money invested with Cipher and he was livid that he wasn't the only one who wasn't getting paid. Richard had some harsher words for Cipher but I wasn't at that point yet. In any case, this was troubling news.

* Tomorrow comes and goes. Nothing in the mail or FEDEX. Damn. ANOTHER three days pass.

Me (Thurs 10/19): Hi Cipher, The money did not arrive yesterday nor today. I'm frustrated with this. I would like the tracking number of the shipment. Thanks, Tim
Cipher (Thurs 10/19): Hi Tim: You couldn't be anymore frustrated than I am about this, as I'm still waiting for the Credit Union to verify my funds received from Money Bookers. I'll be going down there in the AM and I can assure you that I'll have a satisfactory answer or someones head one of the two. When I return from the Credit Union I'll email you. Have a good one. B.J. (cipher)
Me (Fri 10/20 Evening): Hi Cipher, Well, what did they say? If they are stalling on it then perhaps it would be better for you to send a personal check because would knows how much longer it will take. My mother needs that money now. I'm sure that the funds from Money Bookers would eventually clear but can't wait any longer. Thanks,T.B.


House of Cards

Cipher never responded. Meanwhile, me and Richard were discussing what to do, legal and otherwise, for our situation. One day, Richard contacted Cipher (angrily, I assume) and Cipher learned that I had been talking with Richard about Cipher not paying. Next, I get this:

Cipher (Wed 10/25): Hi Tim: I'm advised that you evidentally [sic] felt the need to contact [Richard]......... with regards the arrangement that you and I have had. Accordingly Tim, that arrangement is now over with. Please advise me at your earliest opportunity as to what you feel is owed to you and I'll send you those funds to you on the first of November. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)
Me (Wed 10/25): Hi B.J., In accordance with our (prior) arrangement, which was 15% on accumulated balance monthly, the balance at the end of October would be $53,200. We sent to you in March $20,000 and you sent $2,400 for that month. Thereafter, starting beginning of April, the 15% of accumulated balance started...... I became concerned about the slow September payment, slow email responses, and my brother was very fearful that I gave our mother's money away to never be seen again. I contacted Richard because he appeared to be working with you on your projects. I wanted to know if he was aware of any problems behind the scenes with your ability to pay and he said he had the same delay problems too. I'm sorry that our arrangement had to end this way but it is the best that it end, for now at least. I would still like to contribute in a positive way at the Gambling Edge forum in regards to the Cipher software and the use of your excellent software, if that is ok with you. Very sincerely, Timothy Bell

* At the same time that I was writing the above email to Cipher, Richard continues to try to convince Bruce to pay us and sent proof to him that I was angry too with him. That prompts Bruce to send the follow to Richard and cc'd to me:

Cipher (Wed 10/25): Yes [Richard]: You need to make absolutely certain that you do not call me, write me or > even email me. The only contact that I want to have with you and/or Tim is > through your attorneys. Now put up or shut up. B.J. (cipher)

* With embarrassment to all the world, I wrote this to Cipher:

Me (Wed 10/25): Bruce, For what it's worth, I'm sorry for the comments made by me to [Richard] in regards to your character. They were made on the assumption that you were not going to pull through on your promise to send the disbursement(s). ..... I only made them to David and no one else. I don't know what else I can say. Sincerely, Tim

* November 1st, the date Bruce said he would pay the balance of the account, came and went with nothing received from Bruce. I kept in touch with Richard and started to give some other people, such as Damian at OPU, some notice as to trouble with Bruce/Cipher. Then on November 6th, out of the blue, Bruce surprised me with this email:

Cipher (Mon 11/6): Hi Cat: Sorry that it's taken so long to respond to your last email. Understand CAT I'm not even upset with you. You've got every right to be concerned about your account status. I've talk with a couple of the casions to wit I'm owed sizeable amounts of funds and I'm assured that those funds will be made available within the next week to 10 days. Once those funds are made available you will be made whole in short order. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)
Me (Mon 11/6): Dear Bruce, Thank you for this email. You have a good reputation on the various casino boards and I trust that reputation. Cipher is excellent software though it's my fault that I haven't yet been able to KEEP the winnings I've generated. Well, that's beside the point. I'll be looking forward for the funds.Tim [OK, you can shoot me now, readers.]


In the Shadow of Sorrow

I never heard from Bruce again until I emailed him over three weeks later. It was very trying times in my life right then.....

Me (Thurs 11/30): Hi B. J., It has been awhile since the last email. Have you gotten the funds yet? BTW, my mother is in the hospital again since nearly two weeks ago. She is recovering a bit from a heart attack and stroke. It has been a rough time for a while. Thanks, Tim
Cipher (Thurs 11/30): Hi Cat: I'm sorry to hear of your mother's stroke and heart attack, especially at this time of year. I've been pretty busy making a lot of changes so as to be in compliance with the new law. By the way the site may be down intermittently over the next couple of days while things are switched over to a hosting company in Toronto, Canada. Additionally, in all likelyhood I should be set to clear your account around the first of the year as I've got a large sum of funds coming in on the 2nd of January. It's good to hear from you CAT. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)

I had neither the energy nor mindset to deal with the situation while my beloved mother was in the hospital. It was truly a time of testing and stress. I had a very bad cold and at one point I couldn't speak at all due to all the coughing.

My mother passed peacefully in the morning of December 29th, 2006.


The Awakening

Me (Fri 12/29): Hi Bruce, My mother has passed away this morning. The funeral costs are very high as we found out today. Bruce, we really need the money as soon as possible as the funeral costs have to be paid before the funeral service. The funeral is this Wednesday, Jan 3rd. Can you send at least a partial payment? I really hope you can.
Tim
Cipher (Fri 12/29): Hi CAT: I'm really sorry to hear this CAT. I will be in touch with you on Monday [New Years Day] around midday.B. J. (cipher)

* It's now Monday, New Year's Day...

Me (Mon 1/1/07): Hi B.J., I was on the phone with a relative for quite a while and it is now after 1:00pm here in Virginia. Did I miss your call? Tim
Cipher (Mon 1/1): Hi CAT: No CAT, you did not as I've been on the internet trying to expedite a withdrawal from BoDog but I'm pretty much in limbo or so to speak on that issue until tomorrow given the Holiday and all. I'm showing that I've got some $8,000.00 in withdrawalable funds there but the main accounting department that handles those transfers are not there today.B. J. (cipher)

* Two days later...

Me (Wed 1/3): Hi Cipher Did anything come of this? Tim
Cipher (Wed 1/3): Hi Cat: I've got a call scheduled for 9:30 AM my time 12:30 yours tomorrow to talk with the guy that's in charge. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)

* (SIGH!)

Me (Thurs 1-4): Hi Cipher, Did the call go OK? My relatives are really saying that I made a bad investment and are really disappointed in me, to put it mildly. I really hope they're wrong but I have nothing to counter their doubts. Cipher, I hope you are not in deep financial trouble or anything. Tim
Cipher (Thurs 1-4): Hi CAT: I was not able to make contact with the individual that I needed to today but I hope to be able to tomorrow. Also CAT, beleve me I appreciate your concern. But within the last week or so I've come to understand the phrase "I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel." That's not to say it hasn't been Rocky CAT, but I'm confident everything will turn out fine. Have a good one. Cipher


Man, he's good with that “your frustration is my frustration” thingy.


The Curtain is Pulled Back

In the intervening two weeks, after much reflection and discussion with various people, including, especially my brother, Dan....it became clear Bruce is not what he seems. Next email shows this....

Me (Tues 1/16): Hi Bruce, I got some relatives who are very angry at you (and me) for "taking" my mother's money and suggested a lawsuit. That money, had I not "lost" it (their words) to you, would have paid for my mother's funeral but instead my brother had to paid for the funeral on his equity line and it's up to me to pay him back. They waited to see if you get back with me on your own initiative after making contact with that "individual" as you noted in your last email. Since you didn't get back with me since the last email, proves that you are not for real in their minds. The stuff on BlackjackInfo.com didn't help either. Bruce, my back is against the wall. Can you to pay $5,000 a month or something?? Tim
Cipher (Tues 1/16): Hi CAT: I like you and I do regret that this situation is going on in the way that it is. But I'd certainly suggest to you, your brother and your other relatives to seek legal advice on this matter if they have even the slightest hope that a legal course will provide them and/or yourself any relief in this regard as I can assure you it will not. Moreover, a good example as to just exactly what I mean can be found in the posts that you mentioned at BLACKJACKINFO.COM as that young fellow "bilgplayer" has now found kimself in one hell of a lot of trouble. CAT, as I mentioned earlier I think you're a hell of a guy and I have no probledms with you emailing me at anytime but do us both a favor and do not attempt to threaten me again. [my emphasis] Lastly, I sincerely hope you'll pass this email on to your brother and any other relatives as well. Have a good one. B. J. (cipher)

* Cipher's email was the last straw. I couldn't believe he had the gall to say that I “threatened” him in my 1/16 email to him????? Perhaps this guy really DID have a “persecution” complex as one poster mentioned on Cipher's website recently. I wrote back.....

Me (Wed 1/17): Hii Bruce, I'm angry that you said I threatened you in my previous email. Well, I've had it. I'm sure a judge would see otherwise. I'm requesting my funds, now. If I don't receive substantial payment within a week, various casino forums will hear about it (already at OPU) and legal action will be sought. BTW, I do not believe for one minute that 'bilgplaya' at Blackjackinfo.com is in trouble. You have no way of knowing who he is and his posting didn't have slanderous elements in it. Just the facts. I wanted to like you, Bruce, but saying that my previous email was 'threatening' you was the last straw.Timothy Bell Virginia Beach VA
Cipher (Wed 1/17): Until you tone yourself down do not call or write me again. Above all else do not delay in proceeding with any action you feel you may be able to persue. B. J. (cipher)

My brother has written emails to Bruce reminding him of a pending deadline to pay up. A week has gone by and now you, my dear reader, are reading this.


No Place like Normal

Would you ever think that a mutual fund manager be threatening his clients with lawsuits if you didn't like the way he was handling the funds? Certainly a refund of the original deposit would promptly be paid back. Cipher doesn't even try to explain why he can't pay without insulting people's intelligence. He doesn't even try to work out a payment plan.

Treating "clients" this way is NOT a trait of a legitimate investee or trust fund manager. I guess I and others in the same boat have a certain psychological quirk that makes us susceptible to manipulators like Cipher. I have to give credit to my brother for seeing Cipher for what he is sooner than I.


What Now?

It's sad that this post had to be done so that other people would not have to go through what I did. I know of several other people who are in the same boat but it's up to them to do what they have to do in their situation. Class-action lawsuit? Maybe.

Bruce has {had?} a good thing going with the Cipher software. I still use it {but haven't played online since September}. Has he gone bad? Was he bad all along? Was this a Ponzi scheme? All I know is that warning signs were around but because he had my money, I ignored them.

Legal action is likely and soon. Bruce just doesn't seem to be the kind person to try to mend things. Paying $20,000 now would be better for him than the continuing accumulation of interest into the balance...now closing in on $81,000, if this is brought to trail.

In the end, the Wizard of BJ was....just someone I made up.


I miss you, Mom.
 
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suzecat

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So Cipher may be relying on gambling debts not being enforceable? Ok, fair enough. Visa/MC took their hit and WB you have too. I still believe the loss of reputation will be far more expensive than $50k

Cheers Cipher!
 

mrracetrack

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My thoughts on this:

I've always been a believer in the adage that "There are always two sides to every story"...

That said... I would hope that Cipher responds to these allegations... but until he does so... the aggrieved person making these accusations (Tim) has presented a very compelling and believable posting of his dealings with Cipher. Since other "investors" are similarly involved with this... I would hope that some of them come forward and detail their experiences with Cipher also.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
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Thanks for the warning.

Thanks for the warning. The fact that Bruce could not even pay ONE of his 44 clients makes me think it was definitely a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme. Not being able to withdraw from BoDog seems odd, as when I withdraw they pay within MINUTES to my Neteller, and at the time you first requested payment there were no issues with Neteller not handling gambling money.

I suspect the money from the 44 clients was used for making very large wagers with the Cipher software, but something went wrong, and it could be that the casinos have attempted to void the scheme's play, causing it to be effectively insolvent. What he probably means by his "bring it on" attitude to legal action is that there is NO MONEY to actually settle, and it will be an expensive and futile exercise.
The only other option is to pursue an action for fraud, and see if funds still in the system can be seized to compensate victims pro-rata. If all 44 of you get together and compare notes you should get the big picture. Bruce has been overly keen for you not to contact each other - classic pyramid investment scheme tactics. If you know of his physical location, you can make a complaint against local authorities.
I recall once being approached by Cipher, and being shown the software (which seems to do what it claims to - no problem with that) - but I soon got bored and have not used it - seems you need to make big bets, AND feed the data in manually, which saps any enjoyment out of it - too slow.
If the software really performed long term though, I would expect Cipher to be "rolling in it", to the extent of not having to rely on credit unions etc to perform in order to pay clients.

The agreement also claims "all play will originate from the UK", thus recent events in the US should have no impact other than delays in eWallet withdrawals from around 18th Jan.
Play, and location in, the UK does indeed mean that if Bruse can show the scheme was a gambling syndicate (such as a lottery pool, or horse betting scheme), thenunder UK law you are stuffed - gambling debt is not enforceable. IF the scheme was NOT marketed as a gambling pool, but a straight forward return on deposit (say, income based on licencing the software to others), then several laws have been broken, most importantly Bruce has not got FSA approval to take client deposits or run an investment fund, and criminal fraud may have taken place. It may be possible to effect a recovery from personal assets (house, car etc).

Other than this, the promised 15% return indicates a high risk to capital at a time of interest rates of between 3% and 5%. Outside of the gambling community, any invsetment advisor would class such a scheme (promising 15%) as very high risk of losing some or all the capital invested. Some big fund managers managed to lose the life savings of UK investors by investing in certain kinds of investment vehicles, marketed as safe, till the bottom dropped out of the stockmarket, and the highly geared nature meant investors were lucky to see 1% of they money!
 

uungy

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Firstly Westland Bowl, I really hope you get your money back

what I can never understand, correct me if I am wong, why would he need anyone elses money, or even sell the program, if he can make all the money himself. I am sure he can raise 10 grand easily, and play on that forever. Surely it would be more beneficial and profitable if no-one knows about it, as once its on the web, the casinos can see it, they can bar him. Besides, I honsetly don't believe that the casino's play can be worked out, as there is a possibility of randomness in a computer, and there are so many factors that they can make it run on, ie time (to the millisecond) or similar, which is impossible to know what the exact time on the server is, and with the internet connections, there are always delays, and it never takes the same amount of time to send and recieve a response for the other side, so theres no way knowing when the info will be played on the remote server

Seems loads of ringing bells to me
 

aodat2

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Gambling Debt may not be enforcable but his "initial" investment is not a gambling debt and thus might be returnable. Although WB might not get the 15% he was promised, the initial $20,000 might be obtainable as it's an agreement (non-gambling debt) between WB and Cipher. I'm not a lawyer but I'm preety sure that this is correct.

I really feel sorry for you WB and hope that you will be able to recover your money back from that scumbag(if your story is 100% true). But then again, if someone has such a great program, he wouldn't even want your money to begin with. He would be more than happy to guide you and teach you how to do it yourself instead of taking your money and doing it for you.

A friend of mine(a stock investor) do teach people his techniques and his tactics but till this day has NEVER and according to him WILL NEVER take anyone's money to gain more money. Why? Because he wants people to be independent and earn the money themselves. Teaching someone to fish will set that fella up for life but fishing for him will only take him till the day you stop fishing and he'll die eventually coz he still doesn't know how to fish.

That said, I really hope that those out there who is thinking about using Bruce(Cipher) as someone to invest in would think 2 or maybe 2,000 times before passing any money to him for investment or something else.

I really hope that you will get your money back and my condolences on the loss of your mom.
 

mikepipe

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It looks a very cruel story- nevertheless: I would really love to hear Cipher first before judging.
 

Westland Bowl

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The agreement also claims "all play will originate from the UK", thus recent events in the US should have no impact other than delays in eWallet withdrawals from around 18th Jan.
Play, and location in, the UK does indeed mean that if Bruse can show the scheme was a gambling syndicate (such as a lottery pool, or horse betting scheme), thenunder UK law you are stuffed - gambling debt is not enforceable. IF the scheme was NOT marketed as a gambling pool, but a straight forward return on deposit (say, income based on licencing the software to others), then several laws have been broken, most importantly Bruce has not got FSA approval to take client deposits or run an investment fund, and criminal fraud may have taken place. It may be possible to effect a recovery from personal assets (house, car etc).

I wondered about that "originate from the UK" phrase myself. Bruce is located in California, so how could his blackjack play originate in UK??? If he could do that, then, damn, I'd like to do that too so that I won't be restricted by Neteller and can play in whatever online casinos I want. But believe me, I have no illusions :rolleyes: anymore about my chances of recovering any money.
 

GemG7

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I hate to read about crap like this. I would too like to hear Cipher's side of the story. He was at the forum yesterday so he surely knows about this thread.
 

mikepipe

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The whole story has very sad aspects and i guess, there will be nothing that deserves to be called "happy end".
anyway:
We should NOT use this forum as a tribunal, nor make a witch hunt.
I know that Westland has NOT the intention to something like that, but the thread can get momentum that is hardly to control.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
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Location
Pennsylvania
If it comes to a lawsuit, what is the limits for a small claims suit in your state? I sure hope it's > $20k for where you're at. Most are $5k or so :(


Good luck, and thanks for the warning.
 

aodat2

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If it comes to a lawsuit, what is the limits for a small claims suit in your state? I sure hope it's > $20k for where you're at. Most are $5k or so :(


Good luck, and thanks for the warning.
winbig, if it really takes $5k to get back the $20k, I'd definitely do it. This is not only because I want the money back (if it was mine) but because I want to teach him a lesson NEVER to cheat people like that and also to stop him from ever doing things like that ever again!

WB, I'm not an extremely wealthy person but I am sure I could spare $50 or so to aid in your cause of a lawsuit against him. I'm very sure that members on this forum would be more than happy to support you on your lawsuit as well. (I hope)
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
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Location
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winbig, if it really takes $5k to get back the $20k

You're misunderstanding my post. If the state max (in a civil suit) is $5k where he's at, that's the only thing he'll get back, not a penny more.

If he can get it tried in a criminal court, the judge can order him (Cipher) to pay full restitution.
 

dealer wins

Meister Member
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Oct 25, 2006
Location
London the sh$thole
I am just shocked that someone would send $20000 yes Twenty Thousand Dollars to let someone else play online blackjack with.

The real giveaway that its all a pile of bs is the return of 15% per month.

Im quite new to online gaming but I know that if there is a flaw in the software that enables a player to win consistently he would not need staking, and would not tell ANYONE. Maybe he would need others to set up different accounts to avoid too much heat on one winning account but thats it.

Greed v Common sense.

In this case it sounds like greed won (and lost in the end)

Sad story that joins the 1000s of others that have fallen for various internet scams.
 
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