Resolved Casino LaVida

Rens1990

Dormant account
Hey guys.. This is my first post on the board and I wish I didn't have to make it.. I've been reading on the board for the while but never really took the effort to sign up. This story made me do so anyway.

I spotted Casino LaVida in the Baptism by Fire section on the main website and decided to give it a chance. I made my deposit of EUR 100,- and got a 111 euro's bonus for making a succesfull first deposit. I played blackjack, multihanded and slots. These are the only games I played..

After making my withdrawal of EUR 677.20 I received an email with a request for documents. I send them in and got the response that they had been sent to the relevant department. After that.. silence.. So a few hours ago I decided to go into the livechat and ask about my withdrawal. Here are the most important parts of the chat, upon request I can post the entire chat history..

So they confiscate my winnings which sucks, but the why is actually fun.. Please read..

You are now chatting with 'Jeremy'
Jeremy: Welcome to Casino La Vida? How may I assist you?
Rens van Os: Hi Jeremy
Rens van Os: I've had a pending withdrawal for quite some time now and still havent received it
Rens van Os: could you please check when I can expect my withdrawal?
Jeremy: Sure can, please hold whilst i take a look in to your account
Rens van Os: oke
Rens van Os: I've send in the documents and they were send to the relevant department so everything should be oke..
Jeremy: Thank you for the comments you have added, however i am still investigatinig this for you, please do continue to hold for me Rens
Rens van Os: oke
Jeremy: Unfortunately we have picked up certain discrepencies on the account as informed by our player security team. Therefore we can not allow the withdrawal.
So why did they confiscate my winnings? What discrepencies did they find?!?

Jeremy: 12. Observations of playing patterns such as the playing for deliberate minimum risk, equal, zero margin or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilized for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.
Rens van Os: that is bullshit..
Rens van Os: I didn't play zero margin games
Rens van Os: I didn't hedge my bets
Jeremy: Unfortunately this was the discovery done by our Security Team i am afraid Rens
As I told before, I'd only been playing blackjack and slots.. I told them that I would post the story on CasinoMeister.. They're in the baptism by fire section so I thought it might help.. I was connected to the pitboss, Craig.

You are now chatting with 'Craig'
Rens van Os: Hello Craig
Craig: Hi there Rens.
Craig: I am familiar with all the details.
Rens van Os: oke
Rens van Os: then please tell me this isn't happening
Craig: Please understand upon signing up with the casino one needs to agree with the terms and conditions.
Rens van Os: I did agree
Rens van Os: and I read them
Rens van Os: it makes no sense that I would have violated term 12
Rens van Os: because I didn;'t
Rens van Os: how is playing Blackjack violating that rule?
Rens van Os: I didn't hedge bets or whatever, not even possible on that game
Craig: And the reasons why we cant pay you is that the player security has picked up discrepencies and management has made the decision with regards to not paying you.
Craig: Based on these discrepencies.
Rens van Os: you can't just decide not to pay me
Rens van Os: without any good reason
Craig: We do have reasons on this.
Rens van Os: then please tell me what they are
Rens van Os: because rule 12 of the T&C isn't it
Craig: One moment for me please.
Craig: Casino La Vida reserves the right to examine players engagement in the casino to determine whether or not promotion abuse has taken place. Even if the player has complied with the Terms and Conditions, there are certain instances where promotion abuse can still occur. Non-compliance with the Terms and Conditions is also considered promotion abuse. In these instances Casino La Vida has the right to take the necessary action against a player to rectify the situation.
Now all of a sudden they refer to a different part of the T&C which could mean anything.. It's no reason to deny me my withdrawal..

Rens van Os: now you try and point me to something else, which doesn't make sense either
Rens van Os: But oke.. I'll just post my story on the CasinoMeister board and see what they have to say about it.. I will post full chat history so they can see that it's just tricks being pulled
Craig: He was referring to the bonus as mentioned which then led up to the withdrawal.
Rens van Os: no he was referring that I had played with minimum risk and hedging bets which were the discrepencies.. which was nonsense
Craig: We are following the correct procedure as we do have all the details to back up the decision made.
Rens van Os: now you point me to something else which doesn;t make sense either
Craig: In which case part of that was what he was referring to.
Craig: Hedgebetting is the correct term used.
Rens van Os: how was I hedgebetting?
Rens van Os: how is that even possible while playing BJ?
Craig: In which case a pattern was picked up, and thats why the decision was made not to process the winnings.
Rens van Os: Lol seriously.. Have you ever even played BJ?
Craig: Anythings possible.

Craig: 21 yes I have
Craig: I do know alot of casino games.
Craig: And all the tricks and trades of the relevant games.
Rens van Os: then you should know hedging in BlackJack is impossible
Rens van Os: in roulette, oke.. betting red and black or whatever
Rens van Os: please tell me how it works in BJ?
Rens van Os: I'm dying to know
Craig: O so you do know what and how hedge betting works.
Rens van Os: I bet player and dealer at the same time? You're software doesn't really allow me to bet on the dealer?
Rens van Os: I know what hedging is, I study finance
Craig: So you are familiar of how to do hedge betting, correct.
Craig: Okay so you do now the tricks, which means that you were hedge betting.

Rens van Os: I know what hedge betting is, I have no idea how it would be possible to do that on BlackJack
Rens van Os: Craig.. Allthough this is actually starting to get funny, I'm going to end this conversation
Rens van Os: I'm really curious about the reply's on my post
Rens van Os: when they read that my winnings were confiscated
Rens van Os: because I was hedge betting on BlackJack
Rens van Os: you know just as well as I do that it's impossible
Craig: A certain pattern was picked up this pattern was not only Hedge Betting but we have specified individuals who can pick up certain trends with online gaming.
Rens van Os: certain trends?
Rens van Os: you're using a RNG right? that should be completely random
Rens van Os: how are there any trends?
Rens van Os: because if there are, your software wouldn't be fair?

Craig: Rens no matter what is said at the end of the day we will not turn that decision around.
Rens van Os: oke... you'll be hearing from someone at CasinoMeister pretty soon I guess.. Keep an eye on the board, this will be hilarious
Rens van Os: not to mention all the customers that WON't sign up at the casino because of my post
Rens van Os: but whatever..
Craig: I highly doubt that, as mentioned we do have the proof we need to back up the decision that was made.
Craig: I am soory to say but the decision will not be reversed.
Rens van Os: your proof is that I was hedging bets on BJ or betting with a certain pattern which are both impossible
Rens van Os: so be my guest, my story is going on the board and you will hear from me
Rens van Os: this is the most insane though funny story a casino has tried to pull in a long time
Craig: I know exactly what had occured and you have thus abused the bonus based on wagering.
Craig: So the decision will stick.
Craig: Is there anything else for today?
Rens van Os: no, we'll be in touch
Rens van Os: bye
The last part is absolutely rediculous.. I know what hedge betting is so I did it.. Everybody knows what murder is.. Does that make every person a killer? :confused::confused:

Also.. How is hedge betting on blackjack even possible.. Just a lot of bullshit being played in order not to pay me..

I was hoping to get some help on the board.. Didn't PAB yet.. Should I?
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
I am sorry this is happening to you but I do have a strong gut feeling that the casino is going to say since you knew what a hedge bet was that you admitted you were hedge betting. I think this because he actually stated that to you in the chat.

I can only hope I am wrong, and for yoursake I hope to god I am wrong. Please keep us posted on this, I am very interested in knowing how they have proof and if you actually get paid.

Good Luck, rooting for ya all the way.

LH
 

Rens1990

Dormant account
I told him that I know what hedge betting is.. Doesn't make me quilty of doing it.. You know what hedge betting is right? Does that make you guilty of doing so?

Besides it's totally irrelevant since it's not even possible to do on the games I palyed..
 

Artico

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Thanks for posting, I was about to deposit there - not going to do that after this.
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
I know what hedge betting is and I know you can't do it on the games played. I am sure you were not doing it, but it is relavent here because they (the casino) are acusing you of doing it. I am very curious to see what proof they have if blackjack and slots were the only games you played.

Your first chat session the reason was a discrepencies in your account, did anyone ever bother to tell you what those discrepencies were? Then in the next chat session they state that it was because of hedge betting. What the hell is up with that, why wasn't that stated in the first chat session?

Somthing is not right here, imop. Maybe you should e-mail the casino and ask for an explination of what is going on with your account. If you don't get an asnwer then maybe you should consider a PAB. Your not getting a straight answer from support maybe Max can.

LH
 

Rens1990

Dormant account
This is all just one chatsession. I just posted the most important part. Total chatsession is 4 pages in Microsoft Word.

When I asked what the problem was they pointed me to point 12 of there bonus T&C which is also in the chat session I posted above, about the hedge betting.

When I asked how it's even possible to do that on the games I played, the pitboss simply answered "anything is possible"... I stated him like 5 times that it's not even possible to do what I'm accused of.. I think emailing won't help since I allready spoke to the pitboss?
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
You spoke to the pitboss and he said "anything is possible"? What the hell is that? Doesn't say much for the pitboss if he thinks you can hedge bet on slots and blackjack.

Maybe it is time to read up on the PAB process. I think this maybe the only other alternative.

LH
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
CAG
MM
Clause 12, particularly the vague way it is being used to void winnings is against the latest standards for accreditation, so this DOES need looking into. The term is basically one whereby the management can simply decide not to pay because "they didn't like how you played". Standards for accreditation now stipulate that clear rules governing play on bonuses MUST be given, rather than this vague bullshit that flits from "discrepancies in the account" to "hedge betting" like a butterfly in a spring meadow.

Other casinos have defined max bet rules for bonus play, and list games that cannot be played. How has LaVida managed to get away with keeping the vague rules.

ONLY IN CASES OF FRAUD is it acceptable for a casino to keep it's reasons secret from a player, yet this does NOT look like LaVida has made a fraud accusation, and any betting pattern itself is available in Playcheck, so what's the big deal with this secrecy.

If the player made a bet the casino didn't like, maybe too big for the bonus awarded, they should TELL THE PLAYER, so that they don't make the same mistake again, and if it is something they read about on an affiliate site they will learn that casinos don't like it, and that using directions from that particular site is not such a good idea.

As for "A certain pattern was picked up this pattern was not only Hedge Betting but we have specified individuals who can pick up certain trends with online gaming." What IS he smokin':eek: Yet AGAIN we have the "Heroes argument" being implied, that "certain players" can outwit the RNG in the online Blackjack game. It's BULLSHIT, and was once tried by the notorious "Cipher" who wrote and distributed a piece of software that allowed you to record your past play, and it would PREDICT when to lay out a MASSIVE bet against the house, of the order of recording at, say, $10, and laying out $1000 when his software said "now, go for it". It supposedly worked because you won 100 times as much per single winning $1000 bet than you could POSSIBLY lose on the $10 bets used for recording results. The software supposedly analysed the recorded results for patterns, and generated predictions of when it was massively in your favour to lay out the $1000 bet (not ALL the predictions came true, but were supposed to be accurate enough compared to chance that the strategy was guaranteed to beat the house).

What happend to Cipher and his "investors"? Last news was that he was broke, on the run, being chased by "investors" who had decided they couldn't even be arsed to use the software themselves, and just handed their bankroll to be played in one of Ciphers "labs" (sweatshops?).

"Anything's possible", well not quite, you CANNOT beat a truly RANDOM game with a house edge, however smart you are - the maths proves it.

I can now predict what probably happened here, but if this is true, WTF is the big deal LaVida - this SHOULD BE IN THE RULES ANYWAY, and there is NO JUSTIFICATION for giving this player all the lies and bullshit surrounding "discrepancies in the account".

Prediction. Deposit & bonus were bet entirely, (perhaps keeping some back for splits) across the 5 seats of multi-hand blackjack. A SMALL number of hands were played, and the dealer either busted, or lost most or all of the games against the 5 seats, such that a large balance was quickly built up. Play THEN switched to slots, where bets were MUCH smaller, and WR was completed on this slots play, and the balance was requested for withdrawal.

THIS is what has lead to the max bet rule, and THIS is what should be in place CLEARLY at LaVida for players to read. Whatever amount their security department deem "too much" should be expressed in this rule, such as

"no bets greater than xx% of the opening (deposit+bonus, or bonus) balance may be placed per game. In the case of multi-hand table games, this means per DEALER hand, and for multi-play Video Poker this means per INITIAL DEAL, from which multiple lines are DRAWN"

Added to this should be the usual "hedge betting" rules, which do NOT feature in blackjack, but DO feature in roulette (covering all numbers, red & black, odds & evens etc), and a few other games, such as Sic Bo and Craps.


Whatever forum is putting about this strategy for beating bonuses with the multi-hand blackjack games, PAY NO ATTENTION, and CASINOS, WTF are you even DOING allowing one of your affiliates to issue dodgy advice like this in order to drum up customers, many of whom WILL have their winnings confiscated, but NOT their losses refunded, and where the AFFILIATE responsible will make EVEN MORE MONEY BECAUSE players following their links and "advice" are more likely to LOSE than the norm, because of having winnings confiscated (which means FEWER negatives to offset the positives on the affiliate earnings, because of winnings confiscated, rather than paid).
 

heador112

Active Member
PABnononaccred3
Hello Rens

It would be useful , if you tell us how you have played ?

Have you made larger bets maybe 5 x 20 bets on BJ ? This would be a no go in Microgaming casino if a bonus is involved .
 

Pulver

Senior Member
webmeister
PABaccred
The amount of incompetence, ignorance and horrible customer "service" in the online industry today is just truly shocking. Were do casinos hire their employees? Their pitbosses? Amongst retired boxers, dopedealers and crackheads?

The hedgebettingpart is just, wow.

Makes me sick to think about that I just lost 350 to a casino acting in such a manner.

What the online casinos fail to understand is that the only thing that can make them favourable over other casinos is the way they treat their customers. Way to go Casino La Vida.
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
@ Rens1990 - sounds like that pitboss is giving you a load a horses**t. Like to hear a little gameplay detail. Am also interested to see how the rep you contacted responds. GL!
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Contact the rep, then PAB if that doesnt pan out.

Based on what you said it sounds like the casino is implementing the "FU" clause with no specific grounds, however there are two sides to every argument - lets see if the other sides' is legit.
 

Pulver

Senior Member
webmeister
PABaccred
Contact the rep, then PAB if that doesnt pan out.

Based on what you said it sounds like the casino is implementing the "FU" clause with no specific grounds, however there are two sides to every argument - lets see if the other sides' is legit.

It doesn't really matter how the OP played, CS acting in such a retarded manner is simply inzane, no matter how the player played. Did you even read about the hedge betting in blackjack and the part about "since you now what hedge betting is, you did it"? Laughable.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
CAG
MM
Contact the rep, then PAB if that doesnt pan out.

Based on what you said it sounds like the casino is implementing the "FU" clause with no specific grounds, however there are two sides to every argument - lets see if the other sides' is legit.
This is exactly what I think. It's a case of "you didn't break any terms, but we just didn't like how you played, so we aint paying" This "FU clause" has been more or less BANNED for accreditation standard casinos, and the standard now requires CLEAR and SPECIFIC clauses regarding which kinds of patterns are to be deemed "not allowed" when bonuses are being used. This is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL because the software itself ACCEPTS such bets on behalf of the casino.

It doesn't really matter how the OP played, CS acting in such a retarded manner is simply inzane, no matter how the player played. Did you even read about the hedge betting in blackjack and the part about "since you now what hedge betting is, you did it"? Laughable.
This just makes things worse, the CS, and not just lowly support, but the PITBOSS himself demonstrates a complete LACK of understanding of Blackjack when he refers to the playing style as "hedge betting", which is NOT something that can be done with Blackjack, although BIG betting IS something that can be done, and IS a popular tactic for levering up the starting balance when a bonus is involved. If the casino wants to outlaw this, IT MUST BE IN THE TERMS!
 
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Rens1990

Dormant account
I did indeed use a bigger betsize when I started playing Multihanded BJ (20-40 a hand), up to a point where I didn't feel comfortable losing it anymore, so I started playing slots to complete the wagering, didn't have to play that much.. Ofcourse I used a lower betsize (1.80) because the variance on slots is insane and I wanted to have something left when I could make a withdrawal.

I contacted the rep but haven't heard anything yet.. I'l wait a few days, if I don't hear anything I'll do a PAB.

I know that Casino LaVida support has seen this chat, because when I went back into the livechat yesterday night asking if they maybe changed their mind they told me that their decision stands and they saw this thread and the replies, but it didn't change their mind..
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
What gets me is the refusal of the pit boss to go on record (in chat) and cite anything specific in Rens' play to justify their accusations but goes out of his way to get on record, by the use of leading questions to manipulate Rens' into stating, undeniably, that Rens' "knows what hedge-betting is" and then claims that Rens' knowledge of hedge-betting is sufficient proof of guilt without any other evidence necessary.

That entire exchange, led by the pit boss, IMO, is more than shiesty enough to cast the whole outfit into rogue-dom.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
It doesn't really matter how the OP played, CS acting in such a retarded manner is simply inzane, no matter how the player played. Did you even read about the hedge betting in blackjack and the part about "since you now what hedge betting is, you did it"? Laughable.
No, I ignored that completely, in the hope that someone like yourself could point it out to me.

Could you also help me by highlighting the part where I said anything about 'how the player played'? He didnt even really say how he bet until just now so how could I comment on it?? Now that he has revealed it, betting big on BJ and then grinding out on slots is a classic 'advantage play' strategy and Im sure they (and you) know that, however there isnt a term stating you cant play BJ with the bonus so IMO has done nothing to break the specific terms - which is the reason accredited casinos must make their bonus terms clear and specific.

LaVida is in the Baptism of Fire section, so out of respect for Bryan I refrained from calling casino staff 'retarded' or anything like that (quite apart from the fact the word 'retarded' is incredibly insensitive towards handicapped people :mad: ).

Looks like its you that needs to read a bit better.

Now, Im off to hedge-bet on Thunderstruck.....
 

heador112

Active Member
PABnononaccred3
Well the accusation of " Hedge Betting" is nonsense , however i think it could be possible that the player has broken a different rule , which allow them to confiscate winnings :

" 15.Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized; the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings. "

It seems some Affilates fortify players to abuse Microgmaing promotions with Blackjack Multihand double up stategys . I see more and more cases here with players who try to bypass the Microgmaing rules , which limit the betsize during bonus wager requirements ,with a similar gaming patterns .Well they take the lost deposits but dont payout winnings . Probably a pretty good deal for the Affiliates :p
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Well the accusation of " Hedge Betting" is nonsense , however i think it could be possible that the player has broken a different rule , which allow them to confiscate winnings :

" 15.Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized; the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings. "

It seems some Affilates fortify players to abuse Microgmaing promotions with Blackjack Multihand double up stategys . I see more and more cases here with players who try to bypass the Microgmaing rules , which limit the betsize during bonus wager requirements ,with a similar gaming patterns .Well they take the lost deposits but dont payout winnings . Probably a pretty good deal for the Affiliates :p
Yes, its possible, and depends on what the players balance was when they were betting big on BJ - so if they were betting 5 x $40 hands and their balance was $200 or $250 they may well be in trouble. More information is needed here, which is why it would be nice to hear from the casino.

There is always 2 sides to every story.
 
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