Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

I want them to enforce their laws, which the member countries paid a small fortune to set up and then on maintaining the infrastructure to do so [And we're still paying into the EU pot in the way of membership exit fees afaik].

So said trucks arrive at one the EU ports, full of contaminated criminal pork, and their officials simply wave it through, no export paperwork required?

How many lorries of infected pork products have we sent them? I'd bet none.

Well we can't send infected pork products to the EU because they actually look after their borders, something the UK is singularly failing to do.

I'm sorry mack, but over six years after the referendum, with the UK out of the EU and out of transition, there's no world where looking at a problem the UK has and saying 'It's the EU's fault!' is anything other than an admission that Brexit has utterly failed in even its most basic of aims.

If we are beholden to the EU to save us from something as simple as dodgy Romanian pork in the back of trucks, then Brexit hasn't done very well, has it?

 

[mack341]

Well we can't send infected pork products to the EU because they actually look after their borders, something the UK is singularly failing to do.

I'm sorry mack, but over six years after the referendum, with the UK out of the EU and out of transition, there's no world where looking at a problem the UK has and saying 'It's the EU's fault!' is anything other than an admission that Brexit has utterly failed in even its most basic of aims.

If we are beholden to the EU to save us from something as simple as dodgy Romanian pork in the back of trucks, then Brexit hasn't done very well, has it?

So when we were in the EU - single market etc.. how was the dodgy pork prevented from reaching these shores? [Could be guns hidden amongst animal carcasses too] ...I thought frictionless trade was meant to be a big benefit of being a member?

The point is farms here are inspected for safety and conditions etc...that's why no dodgy pork is being turned back by the eu border officials imo.

Although they did hold up a truck carrying M&S sandwiches due to some petty rule, it's ironic, just wave through infected pork produced in the EU because it's being exported, but obsess about cheese and ham sandwiches going to N.Ireland, making them fill in hundreds of forms and have vets involved.

I wouldn't call that being a reliable trading partner.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So when we were in the EU - single market etc.. how was the dodgy pork prevented from reaching these shores? [Could be guns hidden amongst animal carcasses too] ...I thought frictionless trade was meant to be a big benefit of being a member?

The point is farms here are inspected for safety and conditions etc...that's why no dodgy pork is being turned back by the eu border officials imo.

Although they did hold up a truck carrying M&S sandwiches due to some petty rule, it's ironic, just wave through infected pork produced in the EU because it's being exported, but obsess about cheese and ham sandwiches going to N.Ireland, making them fill in hundreds of forms and have vets involved.

I wouldn't call that being a reliable trading partner.

With respect mack if you read the articles I linked to a few posts back, all these questions are answered - from the piece in the FT, for example.

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The British Veterinary Association, a trade body, described the move as “deeply misguided” and urged ministers to “abandon” their plans or risk causing “significant damage” to the country’s food and farming industries. James Russell, senior vice-president at BVA, said the veterinary community remained “deeply concerned” about the risks posed by delaying the checks. “No one says we should barcode individual fish fingers, but we need to know where those animal proteins are coming from and they are not going to expose UK stock to disease,” he added.

Russell said the UK’s departure from the EU meant Britain was no longer part of the bloc’s veterinary surveillance network, and so did not receive vital information about outbreaks of diseases in member states as quickly as in the past.

As for the M&S sandwiches, you might think the rules are 'petty' but they are the rules that the EU applies to third countries and their exports, and they're the rules that we knowingly and voluntarily subjected ourselves to. If you deliberately stick your hand into a boiling pan of water, you don't get to point at the people who made the pan and blame them for your burn.

For the UK to export food products to the EU now is a massively more involved, time-consuming and bureaucratic process than it used to be, that's what not being in the Single Market means, all of this was known upfront, and warned about, except back then it was called Project Fear.

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That report came out in March, things haven't got any better since then.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

UK trade performance falls to worst level since records began in 1955.

Balance of payments is now starting to look like it could become a real issue.

Pound has lost more than 10% of its value against the dollar in the last year.

All signs point to Brexit.

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The UK’s trade performance fell to its worst level since records began in the first quarter of 2022, heaping more pressure on sterling in international currency markets. Although the Office for National Statistics warned that the figures it published were “subject to higher levels of uncertainty than normal”, the new system it used to collect the trade data based on customs records was chosen because it was thought to be more accurate.

The weak performance of UK exports and a surge in imports will add to pressure on the government over the damaging economic effects of Brexit as the official figures corroborate academic studies showing a rupture in UK exports since the new border controls were imposed in 2021. The data showed that the UK’s current account deficit was 8.3 per cent of gross domestic product in the first quarter of 2022, a deterioration from an average of 2.6 per cent across all the quarters of 2021. That was the worst figure on record since quarterly balance of payments data was first published in 1955.

Part of the decline arose from movements of gold and other precious metals, which have little to do with normal trading relationships. Excluding these volatile elements, the current account deficit rose from an average of 2.4 per cent of GDP in 2021 to 7.1 per cent in the first quarter of this year. Most of the current account deficit stems from a record imbalance of imports and exports, but there were also deficits in investment income and transfers of money between countries. The ONS said it was investigating the big rise in imports it had recorded along with foreign direct investment and advised caution on interpreting the very poor data.

Paul Dales, chief economist at Capital Economics, said the most noteworthy elements in the figures was a 4.4 per cent fall in real exports and a huge 10.4 per cent leap in real imports. “At the start of this year, the ONS started to measure imports between the UK and the EU in a slightly different way” which resulted in a “large step change upwards”, said Dales, adding that the figures were “really hard to interpret”. Samuel Tombs, chief UK economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics, identified “a surge in energy prices” as the primary cause of the UK’s difficulties. He echoed the former Bank of England governor, Mark Carney, who warned repeatedly after the Brexit referendum that the value of the pound depended on the “kindness of strangers”.

Tombs said: “The adverse consequences of the UK dependence on external finance that stems from the large current account deficit have been clear over the last month, with sterling depreciating sharply as global investors have collectively shunned risky assets.” The pound, which was stable in currency markets on Thursday morning, has lost more than 10 per cent of its value against the US dollar over the past year, while remaining broadly stable against the euro.

 

[goatwack]

Won't post the article here - its majesty and divinity would likely result in our eyes melting - but the official narrative being (still) bandied about is, yep, Covid and Ukraine to blame for this shame, with Brexit just a dirty afterthought.

As much as Brexit may have contributed to our troubles, it'll be a cold day in hell before it's even remotely acknowledged as a pivotal factor.

Much easier to affix Covid or Ukraine to everything presently, and that's what they'll be running with for, likely, the next two to three years at least....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Won't post the article here - its majesty and divinity would likely result in our eyes melting - but the official narrative being (still) bandied about is, yep, Covid and Ukraine to blame for this shame, with Brexit just a dirty afterthought.

As much as Brexit may have contributed to our troubles, it'll be a cold day in hell before it's even remotely acknowledged as a pivotal factor.

Much easier to affix Covid or Ukraine to everything presently, and that's what they'll be running with for, likely, the next two to three years at least....

View attachment 169365

The thing is you only need to look at comparable economies, as well as historic data, to see the UK sticking out like a sore thumb across a whole host of economic indicators - and what's the one thing we had that no one else did? Brexit.

I mean, you don't exactly need to be Poirot to work it out.

POIROT SAYS -'It was Brexit what done it guv'nor, wielded by a certain B Johnson in 10 Downing Street whilst he was getting noshed off by a lass he was having an affair with whilst trying to set her up with a £100K per year job'

 

[goatwack]

Death on the Deal is still my favourite Poirot episode by far

 

[dunover]

The thing is you only need to look at comparable economies, as well as historic data, to see the UK sticking out like a sore thumb across a whole host of economic indicators - and what's the one thing we had that no one else did? Brexit.

I mean, you don't exactly need to be Poirot to work it out.

View attachment 169369

POIROT SAYS -'It was Brexit what done it guv'nor, wielded by a certain B Johnson in 10 Downing Street whilst he was getting noshed off by a lass he was having an affair with whilst trying to set her up with a £100K per year job'

Poirot - quite appropriate. From an artificial European country created by Britain as a buffer zone after the Napoleonic wars. Ironically, where the Eurocraps and pointless parliament now reside.

Have the EU abolished fellatio then?

£100k per annum is quite a bargain, she could have applied for a pointless 150k PA euro job.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Poirot - quite appropriate. From an artificial European country created by Britain as a buffer zone after the Napoleonic wars. Ironically, where the Eurocraps and pointless parliament now reside.

Have the EU abolished fellatio then?

£100k per annum is quite a bargain, she could have applied for a pointless 150k PA euro job.

The latest Private Eye has an interesting Johnson blowjob story that hasn't been well covered elsewhere.

 

[goatwack]

Looking to the future, Truthful Tony's definitely not rounding up Remainers and Left-leaning allies at his 'Ideas Conference', and would most definitely probably not form an offshoot Brexit party to sow the seeds of getting a pro-EU narrative going, in view to eventual readmittance.

Brexit's still very much at the forefront of his thoughts, and his wading in to British politics unwavering. Expect to see your digital screens lit up with that beaming smile in the months to come, as he drums up support for the cause.

He'll have one ready-made devotee in the form of Sadiq Khan't, whose recent blurbs pointed towards wanting us to rejoin the Single Market, and that the nation had made a grave error in leaving, in between his disregard towards even attempting to tackle London's many problems, and visiting cannabis farms ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

For those who aren't subscribed

 

[goatwack]

That's some impressive phone captures there Chopley, you've almost reached 240p

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Looking to the future, Truthful Tony's definitely not rounding up Remainers and Left-leaning allies at his 'Ideas Conference', and would most definitely probably not form an offshoot Brexit party to sow the seeds of getting a pro-EU narrative going, in view to eventual readmittance.

Brexit's still very much at the forefront of his thoughts, and his wading in to British politics unwavering. Expect to see your digital screens lit up with that beaming smile in the months to come, as he drums up support for the cause.

He'll have one ready-made devotee in the form of Sadiq Khan't, whose recent blurbs pointed towards wanting us to rejoin the Single Market, and that the nation had made a grave error in leaving, in between his disregard towards even attempting to tackle London's many problems, and visiting cannabis farms ?

Well in fairness Herr Ziege, it pretty obviously was a terrible error to leave the Single Market as part of Brexit?

We could have left the EU without performing the full on strop of flouncing out of the Single Market, and trashing our economy to the tune of tens of billions of pounds every year from here forward.

 

[dunover]

The latest Private Eye has an interesting Johnson blowjob story that hasn't been well covered elsewhere.

Yes, I saw it (and the Times' missing article.)

A new meaning to BJ in office.

 

[mcgameboy]

The thing is Monsieur Bouc once we left the EU our borders became entirely our responsibility when it came to stuff like food products, and we're doing a stunningly bad job of protecting them, unlike the EU who took Brexit very seriously and made sure they had all the rules, regulations, infrastructure, staff, customs checking points etc in place ready to go when transition ended. (Oh to have escaped all that EU red-tape and bureaucracy eh?) This is why UK food producers are having such a tawdry time exporting to the EU, and why UK food exports to the EU have cratered since transition ended. These are the rules we were always going to be subjected to once we voluntarily decided to make ourselves a third country outside the Single Market and Customs Union.

Why should the EU give a shit if dodgy Romanians want to send lorry loads of diseased pigs to the UK? We wanted out of the EU, we got out of the EU, our food standards are now our own business, and if we are incapable of policing our borders (which we are), it's not the EU's job to do it for us.

Like I said, 'taking back control' works two ways, the UK isn't the only entity with borders, that unfortunate reality was rather lost in all the tub-thumping rhetoric about SOVRINTEE and all the rest of it.

Ugh. That's almost as bad as spelling apocalypse APOCKALIPS

Admit it Chops, it hurt you deep inside to deliberately misspell it that way, didn't it?

And who the fuck is Monsieur Bouc?

 

[Kroffe]

And who the fuck is Monsieur Bouc?

There are many people named Bouc, please be more pacific.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And who the fuck is Monsieur Bouc?

It's French for 'Mr Goat', I have it in my mind to address goatwack with as many European language variations of 'Mr Goat' as possible until he finally becomes a fully fledged Europhile.

 

[goatwack]

It's French for 'Mr Goat', I have it in my mind to address goatwack with as many European language variations of 'Mr Goat' as possible until he finally becomes a fully fledged Europhile.

And therein lies the beauty of it - six years is a long time and a lot's come to light since then. I don't subscribe to one take indefinitely, and everyone reserves the right to alter their views over time, even if just on small things.

I'm not going to beat the drum for Brexit having been a magnificent outcome for Britain, as our politicians continued to fumble the football.

Whilst I'm not quite resigned to marking Brexit a failure as of yet, but still somewhat of a work-in-progress, if these 'changes' brought about were eventually proven to be a complete disaster and merely the plaything of politicians, then I'd want whatever's best for Britain going forward, even if just to salvage whatever's left at this point! (not a lot)

But whether for or against, we won't see any realistic chance of re-entry for a good while yet. So like with everything, we can only place what little trust we have left in our Government to sort out the situation at hand. And I shan't be holding my breath on that one

 

[sufferinsilence]

It's French for 'Mr Goat', I have it in my mind to address goatwack with as many European language variations of 'Mr Goat' as possible until he finally becomes a fully fledged Europhile.

Meneer Geit it is then

 

[goatwack]

And this is why we Brexited. Foreigners correcting us with their fancy-shmancy knowledge of their own language

 

[sufferinsilence]

And this is why we Brexited. Foreigners correcting us with their fancy-shmancy knowledge of their own language

On top of knowing (one or two of) yours, a tiny bit of it atleast.

 

[goatwack]

On top of knowing (one or two of) yours, a tiny bit of it atleast.

Is that so? Yeah? Mange mes gaufres, Tintin

 

[mcgameboy]

Is that so? Yeah? Mange mes gaufres, Tintin

I assumed (wrongly) that "gaufres" was French for shorts

Imagine my disappointment when I found out it was French for waffles....

 

[mack341]

UK trade performance falls to worst level since records began in 1955.

Balance of payments is now starting to look like it could become a real issue.

Pound has lost more than 10% of its value against the dollar in the last year.

All signs point to Brexit.

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View attachment 169364

The UK’s trade performance fell to its worst level since records began in the first quarter of 2022, heaping more pressure on sterling in international currency markets. Although the Office for National Statistics warned that the figures it published were “subject to higher levels of uncertainty than normal”, the new system it used to collect the trade data based on customs records was chosen because it was thought to be more accurate.

The weak performance of UK exports and a surge in imports will add to pressure on the government over the damaging economic effects of Brexit as the official figures corroborate academic studies showing a rupture in UK exports since the new border controls were imposed in 2021. The data showed that the UK’s current account deficit was 8.3 per cent of gross domestic product in the first quarter of 2022, a deterioration from an average of 2.6 per cent across all the quarters of 2021. That was the worst figure on record since quarterly balance of payments data was first published in 1955.

Part of the decline arose from movements of gold and other precious metals, which have little to do with normal trading relationships. Excluding these volatile elements, the current account deficit rose from an average of 2.4 per cent of GDP in 2021 to 7.1 per cent in the first quarter of this year. Most of the current account deficit stems from a record imbalance of imports and exports, but there were also deficits in investment income and transfers of money between countries. The ONS said it was investigating the big rise in imports it had recorded along with foreign direct investment and advised caution on interpreting the very poor data.

Paul Dales, chief economist at Capital Economics, said the most noteworthy elements in the figures was a 4.4 per cent fall in real exports and a huge 10.4 per cent leap in real imports. “At the start of this year, the ONS started to measure imports between the UK and the EU in a slightly different way” which resulted in a “large step change upwards”, said Dales, adding that the figures were “really hard to interpret”. Samuel Tombs, chief UK economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics, identified “a surge in energy prices” as the primary cause of the UK’s difficulties. He echoed the former Bank of England governor, Mark Carney, who warned repeatedly after the Brexit referendum that the value of the pound depended on the “kindness of strangers”.

Tombs said: “The adverse consequences of the UK dependence on external finance that stems from the large current account deficit have been clear over the last month, with sterling depreciating sharply as global investors have collectively shunned risky assets.” The pound, which was stable in currency markets on Thursday morning, has lost more than 10 per cent of its value against the US dollar over the past year, while remaining broadly stable against the euro.

Relevant comparison?



------------------

I would expect uk food exports to be impacted if many restaurants in europe ended up going out of business due to the lockdowns, or their trade has not yet returned to pre-pandemic levels. Certainly not confident to order as much as before, in case it exceeds demand.

Probably the uk govt have not done an amazing job so far handling the brexit process; however, I don't think the deal Norway has would reflect the public's idea of leaving the EU:

Norway’s economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed by the EEA Agreement, which entered into force in 1994.

The EEA Agreement provides for the inclusion of all EU legislation linked to the Single Market. This covers the four freedoms, i.e. the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital, as well as competition and state aid rules, but also the following horizontal policies: consumer protection, company law, energy, environment, social policy and statistics.

Until things get back to normal, inflation and energy costs for one etc.. I don't think you can judge how well or not brexit is going, it will be interesting to see if the trade with the rest of the world increases because we have more freedom to negotiate individually with countries.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

We can chuck graphs around all day (here's another one!), but it's interesting to note that the 'upside' of Brexit is now limited to the likes of David Frost saying 'this bad thing isn't because of Brexit', not even the vaguest pretence left that there's any benefit to the UK at all.

As for the Norway approach to leaving the EU, I'll give you one guess as to who used to be a proponent of it.....

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[dunover]

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Another one bites the dust. Ever seen a party commit suicide like this? Must be a mate of Alec Salmond's.

Soon be renamed the 'Louses of Parliament'....

 

[pinnit2014]

With increased taxation and increased public spending in areas, i feared the Tories had forgotten their roots.

Glad they're on the road to recovery.

 

[goatwack]

Politician sleaze is hardly new, 30 years ago we'd have the same as it is now, except they were less likely to be caught, reported or simply stood up against.

In this Information Age where everyone's a roving undercover reporter with a smartphone fused to their hand, not to mention greater transparency in exposing dubious behaviours, I doubt people get away with half the stuff they used to. Though at least there's a sliver of 'doing the right thing' by resigning, unlike so many others who are happy to wing it to the bitter end.

Who can forget everyone's favourite buck-toothed, Chelsea kit-wearing deviant who frolicked with prostitutes, David Mellor?

 

[slot_zombie]

We can chuck graphs around all day (here's another one!), but it's interesting to note that the 'upside' of Brexit is now limited to the likes of David Frost saying 'this bad thing isn't because of Brexit', not even the vaguest pretence left that there's any benefit to the UK at all.

I don't know, Brexit or no Brexit, EU membership didn't seem to do much to address the chronic problems of the UK. But worse, no-one has a plan to make things better since we left, or set the country on some sort of road to improvement. It's shocking how the tories are happy to just bumble along doing nothing much, banking on the clown opposition being marginally more unelectable. You have to wonder if the idiots in Parliament hadn't made such a bad job of things, whether people would have been content wth the status quo.

e.g.
- Huge swathe of ill-educated 'underclass' on benefits / economically inactive - also ageing fast with an increasing number of retired / pensioners
- Generally apathetic population
- Shit politicians with no forward plan for the country behind winning the next election (exhibit A: lack of an energy security policy until the shit hit the fan)
- Don't manufacture much any more and little interest in doing so
- Shit schools
- Predatory housing/renting market
- 'Offence taking' / woke culture often preventing effective action on serious issues like illegal immigration, reverse racism, child abuse etc. causing decay in the fabric of society

Unless we get a leader or party with a vision and a plan, we're fecked - unable to compete globally, a small, decaying island - in or out.

 

[goatwack]

Lest we forget, the nation, nay, the world had just started seeing some signs of stability from the Worldwide Financial Crash. And so one had a whole country with their backs up, essentially scapegoating the EU as being detrimental to future growth and prosperity, as well as vetoing anything of note. And thus, Project Fear was born!

It was outright populism, and used to invoke a 'them against us' culture of self-preservation. When really, Brexit's benefits are TBA if anything.

I don't believe for one second that they'd envisaged a Yes vote to come to fruition, so then came the "Shit, what can we salvage from this mess Tristram", where it became such a messy divorce that many were left to wonder what this exit actually truly achieved. F-.....fishing rights?

So yes, Britain's no better off for it, and many politicians involved in its process long-gone. David 'Blub' Cameron, gone. Theresa 'Robot' May, gone. Boris 'DUDE' Johnson, soon to go, couldn't give a flying fig. And as for Sir 'Beer' Starmer and Angela 'Chav' Rayner, well, I wouldn't bank on them sorting Britain's problems out either, nor any current Labour troupe, as the party's in a worse state than the Tories (hard to believe)

At this point the only vote worth casting is to abstain from either of this ruinous duopoly, and hope in the next 50 years someone will step up to the task. Sure, I'll look like the Cryptkeeper, but it'll have been a vote worth saving

 

[mcgameboy]

Lest we forget, the nation, nay, the world had just started seeing some signs of stability from the Worldwide Financial Crash. And so one had a whole country with their backs up, essentially scapegoating the EU as being detrimental to future growth and prosperity, as well as vetoing anything of note. And thus, Project Fear was born!

It was outright populism, and used to invoke a 'them against us' culture of self-preservation. When really, Brexit's benefits are TBA if anything.

I don't believe for one second that they'd envisaged a Yes vote to come to fruition, so then came the "Shit, what can we salvage from this mess Tristram", where it became such a messy divorce that many were left to wonder what this exit actually truly achieved. F-.....fishing rights?

So yes, Britain's no better off for it, and many politicians involved in its process long-gone. David 'Blub' Cameron, gone. Theresa 'Robot' May, gone. Boris 'DUDE' Johnson, soon to go, couldn't give a flying fig. And as for Sir 'Beer' Starmer and Angela 'Chav' Rayner, well, I wouldn't bank on them sorting Britain's problems out either, nor any current Labour troupe, as the party's in a worse state than the Tories (hard to believe)

At this point the only vote worth casting is to abstain from either of this ruinous duopoly, and hope in the next 50 years someone will step up to the task. Sure, I'll look like the Cryptkeeper, but it'll have been a vote worth saving

You're spitting facts with that one bruh.

I haven't voted in a GE or even a local election in decades and I am proud of it.
Simply because when I see a ballot paper, all I see is this....

Aspiring Greedy Corrupt Arsehole 1
Aspiring Greedy Corrupt Arsehole 2

and so on....

At the risk of sounding like one of Hugh Laurie's characters from A Bit Of Fry And Laurie....

Democracy? Bollocks, more like!

 

[Mr_Slot5]

I don't know, Brexit or no Brexit, EU membership didn't seem to do much to address the chronic problems of the UK. But worse, no-one has a plan to make things better since we left, or set the country on some sort of road to improvement. It's shocking how the tories are happy to just bumble along doing nothing much, banking on the clown opposition being marginally more unelectable. You have to wonder if the idiots in Parliament hadn't made such a bad job of things, whether people would have been content wth the status quo.

e.g.
- Huge swathe of ill-educated 'underclass' on benefits / economically inactive - also ageing fast with an increasing number of retired / pensioners
- Generally apathetic population
- Shit politicians with no forward plan for the country behind winning the next election (exhibit A: lack of an energy security policy until the shit hit the fan)
- Don't manufacture much any more and little interest in doing so
- Shit schools
- Predatory housing/renting market
- 'Offence taking' / woke culture often preventing effective action on serious issues like illegal immigration, reverse racism, child abuse etc. causing decay in the fabric of society

Unless we get a leader or party with a vision and a plan, we're fecked - unable to compete globally, a small, decaying island - in or out.

Hard to disagree with any of this, so in my eyes it’s a top post.

I take a ‘leave’ stance because in my eyes the EU are much of the same. Wedded to a neo-liberal economic ideology that just isn’t working. All neo liberalism is achieving is an accelerated transfer of wealth from the already poor to the increasingly wealthy.

This is borne out in the free movement of people which just allows multi billion pound businesses to source the cheapest labour they can find, whilst putting very little back on a socio-economic level. There is no ‘trickle down’, it’s a money grab.

With moralistic and competent leadership, there’s no doubt in my mind that Brexit could pave the way to a fairer society. However it’s going to take someone with a clear, ambitious vision.

 

[goatwack]

Blair's Open Door policy was to stimulate the economy through cheap labour, and served nothing more than to aid his tenure at No.10.

How much was put back into the economy, and how much was 'taken out' and sent back to their country of origin? And how many workers settled here? Because frightening a truth though this is, at what point is the country straining at the seams, as services become overburdened, much of what we're seeing now?

The NHS is shot, GPs are disinterested, our Police ineffective and unwilling to even record crimes, and the less said about schools, the better. We won't mention the Strike-pocalypse we're set to endure in the coming months either.

We're now at the point where everything's at breaking point, and irrespective of how this island's been filled, it can only support so many people before the cracks start to show, because horror of horrors, there's only so much to go around.

Politicians will do what betters their figures during their term(s), they couldn't care less beyond that. So whilst Tony Blair did that deed, 25 years later not a lot's changed for the better. And lo and behold, Brexit was used by the current stooges for political clout and their 4-D chess that they love to partake in.

And here we are, 25 years later, and I've yet to see any of that 'sovereignty' and 'autonomy' as people migrate on a whim, often through the system. How many unvetted arrivals has Britain embraced at Dover this year alone? 13000?

So we can all beat the Brexit drum about how it's set to lead Britain into a path of sustainability and enlightenment. Fact is, Brexit's nothing but a buzzword that that politician X Y Z will peddle for political gain, and the very notion that a political saviour's waiting in the wings to eke out anything resembling a handle on it, is somewhat 'hopeful'

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Blair's Open Door policy was to stimulate the economy through cheap labour, and served nothing more than to aid his tenure at No.10.

How much was put back into the economy, and how much was 'taken out' and sent back to their country of origin? And how many workers settled here? Because frightening a truth though this is, at what point is the country straining at the seams, as services become overburdened, much of what we're seeing now?

The NHS is shot, GPs are disinterested, our Police ineffective and unwilling to even record crimes, and the less said about schools, the better. We won't mention the Strike-pocalypse we're set to endure in the coming months either.

We're now at the point where everything's at breaking point, and irrespective of how this island's been filled, it can only support so many people before the cracks start to show, because horror of horrors, there's only so much to go around.

Politicians will do what betters their figures during their term(s), they couldn't care less beyond that. So whilst Tony Blair did that deed, 25 years later not a lot's changed for the better. And lo and behold, Brexit was used by the current stooges for political clout and their 4-D chess that they love to partake in.

And here we are, 25 years later, and I've yet to see any of that 'sovereignty' and 'autonomy' as people migrate on a whim, often through the system. How many unvetted arrivals has Britain embraced at Dover this year alone? 13000?

So we can all beat the Brexit drum about how it's set to lead Britain into a path of sustainability and enlightenment. Fact is, Brexit's nothing but a buzzword that that politician X Y Z will peddle for political gain, and the very notion that a political saviour's waiting in the wings to eke out anything resembling a handle on it, is somewhat 'hopeful'

I’ve always thought that the New Labour government was one of the worst things that happened to the UK. How many of the foundations for today’s issues were laid back then?!

 

[mack341]

We may as well appoint Nicola Sturgeon lifetime president of the UK as go back under the control of the EU.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

We may as well appoint Nicola Sturgeon lifetime president of the UK as go back under the control of the EU.

Thanks for the nightmares tonight Mack

 

[goatwack]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Quite a few posts there so I'll try to make a reply that covers the points made.

First off we need to remember that immigration is a net benefit to the UK economy and always has been, with immigrants putting more into the UK economy than they take out (which contrasts sharply with the 'native' population, who take out more than they put in overall).

There is certainly a conversation to be had about the mass importation of cheap labour, but remember it's always been within the UK government's power to fix that with higher minimum wages, strong workplace contracts, anti-exploitation laws and suchlike, the EU has nothing to do with that, the UK government could have done that when we were an EU member.

In terms of the societal structures to support this increase in population, yes of course we need to make sure those are in place and functional, but on that we must remember that the Tory austerity years stripped public services to the bone, they ransacked local council budgets and adopted a scorched earth approach to public finances, all predicated on the lie that 'the nation's credit card was maxed out', so working people got it in the neck year after year, whilst the rich made out like bandits. (No austerity for for David, George and their mates!) So now we have the likes of Priti Patel boasting about all the new police officers they're recruiting, whilst failing to mention that even if they recruit the numbers they say they will (unlikely), we'll still be below the numbers we had when they came into office back in 2010.

I'm not wildly impressed with Keir Starmer's Labour Party, he's repaired a lot of the damage of the Corbyn era and has at least made the Labour Party look electable (I rather liked Corbyn and thought the last election manifesto he ran on was very impressive, but I recognise he was an electoral liability in many areas). However, in terms of a clear vision for how they're going to fix things, Labour are being far too timid, but I am mindful that the right wing attack media in this country, largely owned by, and run for the convenience of billionaires - are looking for any opportunity to start screaming about, for example, 'BREXIT BETRAYAL'.

The next general election is still a couple of years out, as Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake', and with the Tories apparently determined to self-immolate on a biblical scale at the moment, one can understand Labour sitting back and letting them crack on with it, but we're going to need some clear and determined policy announcements before too long.

A point I made earlier in this thread, probably back in 2019, so long before we were actually out of the EU and transition, was that a lot of the stuff people were angry about and cited as their reason for voting for Leave, wasn't going to be fixed by the UK leaving the EU, because they were UK problems that were within the power of the UK government to fix, it just didn't want to. The extent to which the UK was 'UNDER EU CONTROL' was always massively overstated (to this day I've never met anyone who can actually name 'An EU rule' they specifically wanted to get rid of, it's always just 'all them EU rules innit') - what we had was an awful decade of Tory rule (variously propped up by the Lib Dems and DUP), and people were justifiably angry with how shit a lot of stuff had got, the problem was they blamed the EU, when the real culprits were sat in Downing Street.

And here we are in the year 2022, with what is probably the worst government the UK has ever had, headed up by the worst Prime Minister we've ever had, we're out of the EU and guess what, it didn't fix anything. Nothing magically got better when we left the EU, because all the shit that's fucked up in the UK isn't the EU's fault, it never was, Brexit got done*, and it didn't do anything.

* I mean, sort of, Johnson's deal was so tragi-comedically bad that we'll be suffering its negative effects for years, if not decades to come.

 

[dunover]

Quite a few posts there so I'll try to make a reply that covers the points made.

First off we need to remember that immigration is a net benefit to the UK economy and always has been, with immigrants putting more into the UK economy than they take out (which contrasts sharply with the 'native' population, who take out more than they put in overall).

There is certainly a conversation to be had about the mass importation of cheap labour, but remember it's always been within the UK government's power to fix that with higher minimum wages, strong workplace contracts, anti-exploitation laws and suchlike, the EU has nothing to do with that, the UK government could have done that when we were an EU member.

In terms of the societal structures to support this increase in population, yes of course we need to make sure those are in place and functional, but on that we must remember that the Tory austerity years stripped public services to the bone, they ransacked local council budgets and adopted a scorched earth approach to public finances, all predicated on the lie that 'the nation's credit card was maxed out', so working people got it in the neck year after year, whilst the rich made out like bandits. (No austerity for for David, George and their mates!) So now we have the likes of Priti Patel boasting about all the new police officers they're recruiting, whilst failing to mention that even if they recruit the numbers they say they will (unlikely), we'll still be below the numbers we had when they came into office back in 2010.

I'm not wildly impressed with Keir Starmer's Labour Party, he's repaired a lot of the damage of the Corbyn era and has at least made the Labour Party look electable (I rather liked Corbyn and thought the last election manifesto he ran on was very impressive, but I recognise he was an electoral liability in many areas). However, in terms of a clear vision for how they're going to fix things, Labour are being far too timid, but I am mindful that the right wing attack media in this country, largely owned by, and run for the convenience of billionaires - are looking for any opportunity to start screaming about, for example, 'BREXIT BETRAYAL'.

The next general election is still a couple of years out, as Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake', and with the Tories apparently determined to self-immolate on a biblical scale at the moment, one can understand Labour sitting back and letting them crack on with it, but we're going to need some clear and determined policy announcements before too long.

A point I made earlier in this thread, probably back in 2019, so long before we were actually out of the EU and transition, was that a lot of the stuff people were angry about and cited as their reason for voting for Leave, wasn't going to be fixed by the UK leaving the EU, because they were UK problems that were within the power of the UK government to fix, it just didn't want to. The extent to which the UK was 'UNDER EU CONTROL' was always massively overstated (to this day I've never met anyone who can actually name 'An EU rule' they specifically wanted to get rid of, it's always just 'all them EU rules innit') - what we had was an awful decade of Tory rule (variously propped up by the Lib Dems and DUP), and people were justifiably angry with how shit a lot of stuff had got, the problem was they blamed the EU, when the real culprits were sat in Downing Street.

And here we are in the year 2022, with what is probably the worst government the UK has ever had, headed up by the worst Prime Minister we've ever had, we're out of the EU and guess what, it didn't fix anything. Nothing magically got better when we left the EU, because all the shit that's fucked up in the UK isn't the EU's fault, it never was, Brexit got done*, and it didn't do anything.

* I mean, sort of, Johnson's deal was so tragi-comedically bad that we'll be suffering its negative effects for years, if not decades to come.

The immigration part is absolute bollocks and you know it. Of course population increase grows the economy, as it increases demand and the necessity to provide government services like education and health. However, it has made us all poorer on average as the real indicator of prosperity, that's productivity or GDP per head of population has remained static (a real terms drop) or fallen slightly.

You know as well as I do that thousands of unskilled migrants like Roma scrap metal collectors are cash-in-hand 'workers' and do not pay taxes, similarly many of those who work in other 'cash' businesses like takeaways, pop-up kitchens or unlicensed taxis.

So pray tell me, how a couple of migrants say, with obviously no prior history of contribution to the state, working properly taxed for minimum wage £32k per year between them, which would pay the state about 5k in tax and NI contributions, make us richer? As soon as they have a child that goes into school, that's 10k cost PA to the state plus some tax reversed in the form of child benefit. Tell me how their taxes cover merely that cost? Granted, their efforts may make the company they work for some profit, which they would pay corporation or business taxes on.

Perhaps vastly more important than money is the reduction in quality of life for everyone. We simply cannot accommodate the population we have now, which increases every year due to high migrant birth rates (in spite of the fact there's no jobs or housing for them) - since the 2011 census, according to the 2021 census the UK population has increased by a staggering 6%, all of it attributable to immigration and immigrant birth rates. There is only one way this can end, and it isn't good - for them or us. Look at history and similar situations arising from it.

In the meantime though, we are steadily concreting over our countryside with g-plan red brick housing offering small rooms, postage-stamp frontage crammed high-density into fields as people flee the towns and cities, creating more issues in those areas regarding transport and other services. We are now the most densely populated country in Europe. No space, no peace and quiet and a rapidly reducing quality of life. But hey, if this irreversible action is making us each slightly better off (it isn't) then bollocks to the future! We only produce 60% of our own food requirement, down for a peak of 80% in the 1960's. The whole situation is completely insane, illogical and dangerous. And since the 2021 census, over 30,000 undocumented invaders have been allowed to land on our shores to further exacerbate the problem. Just brilliant. The government is failing, the system is broken and in the next couple of generations, these islands will be too. And just think, Nicola Sturgeon's big idea for Scotland after independence is to 'grow' the country through migration. I suggest the Scots with open space aplenty come and visit England to get an idea of what they have to look forward to if she gets her way. Because a couple of decades down the line, you'll realize the Scotland you are so proud of, it's appearance and traditions will be gone forever. But nevermind, the illusion of a few quid now should compensate for the problems of later....

 

[bamberfishcake]

Regarding immigration - the majority are not skilled workers that go into blue-chip companies - I would guess the migrant workers that bring any real value or skill would be around 5%.

Then you have the logic that follows an influx of people into a system that cannot accommodate all:

More coming into a country means fewer job opportunities for all.

Working for less than native workers has cost many, and has disrupted earnings, and ultimately driven down wages at the bottom end.

The vast majority share accommodation and most of the money they earn is sent back home and goes out of the economy.

p.s. there are of course the repercussions that have come with, fewer jobs, drain on the system, increasing debt, blah, blah, blah - only one truth remains, our UK government does not have your interests at heart.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But Brexit was never going to fix any of that, especially in dunover's example where he's talking about people working in the underground economy, not paying tax etc which by definition is illegal.

Moreover, the UK has an ageing population, and a dramatically ageing population at that - without enough babies being born the gap in the active workforce needs to be plugged somehow, and whilst since Brexit EU immigration is down, immigration from the rest of the world has increased dramatically. Overall the numbers of people coming to live and work in the UK from other countries has remained largely unchanged.

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What's interesting there is that where the EU workforce has shrunk considerably and not been replaced with non-EU workers, we're experiencing severe staff shortages, despite improved pay being on offer, because it turns out that Brits either can't or won't do that sort of work in the numbers required.

There was a decent article about this in the FT a couple of days ago, which perhaps explains why the Tories are more than happy to keep overall immigration numbers high (simply shifting the numbers from the EU to non-EU countries), rather than trying to fix systemic issues in the UK workplace (higher minimum wage, end to zero hour contracts, more workers' rights etc). The Tories are essentially the party of the old and the wealthy, and they act like it.

 

[mack341]

I think many remainers are of the left and see the EU as a 'friend' to their cause, which is mainly 'social' justice and woke ideology nowadays. If you're not popular enough to win general elections, then the EU forcing its liberal and progressive 'values' onto the uk public is the next best thing.

It was costing the UK 10 billion pounds [10,000,000,000 net] to be a member, imagine the benefit to the uk of spending that here on various projects to increase the standard of living, business etc...

Why would even the labour party want to hand over all that tax money for brussels to spend elsewhere, when we have all the problems that we have, makes no sense.

A different type of EU, with more democracy and less imposing, could have been okay, but it is a slow, power grab project, where eventually no members will realistically be able to leave, with powers and agency similar to a uk borough council.

Look at Poland and Hungary, helping many ukrainian refugees, while at the same time moves are afoot to fine them because the EU doesn't like how they run their countries, which are the result of democratic elections unlike the EU.

Edit: I am not happy with the Tories either, definitely room for improvement on many fronts, unlimited arrogance [about themselves and the job they're doing] and complacency are not a good combination.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think many remainers are of the left and see the EU as a 'friend' to their cause, which is mainly 'social' justice and woke ideology nowadays. If you're not popular enough to win general elections, then the EU forcing its liberal and progressive 'values' onto the uk public is the next best thing.

It was costing the UK 10 billion pounds [10,000,000,000 net] to be a member, imagine the benefit to the uk of spending that here on various projects to increase the standard of living, business etc...

Why would even the labour party want to hand over all that tax money for brussels to spend elsewhere, when we have all the problems that we have, makes no sense.

A different type of EU, with more democracy and less imposing, could have been okay, but it is a slow, power grab project, where eventually no members will realistically be able to leave, with powers and agency similar to a uk borough council.

Look at Poland and Hungary, helping many ukrainian refugees, while at the same time moves are afoot to fine them because the EU doesn't like how they run their countries, which are the result of democratic elections unlike the EU.

OK so we're out of the EU now and have been for a while, so where's all the extra money that's supposed to be sloshing around? You're complaining about all the things Leavers were complaining about back in 2016, none of it applies any more - so where's the good stuff?

Leave won! Brexit happened! Sunlit uplands remember? So where are they?

Also, what does 'woke' even mean? The word is bandied about constantly, and used as insult, and yet getting a definition of it is surprisingly difficult.

The Daily Mail suggested that builders had GONE WOKE because they, erm, read books, talk about things and don't always eat fried breakfasts.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Michael O'Leary not exactly mincing his words.

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[mack341]

OK so we're out of the EU now and have been for a while, so where's all the extra money that's supposed to be sloshing around? You're complaining about all the things Leavers were complaining about back in 2016, none of it applies any more - so where's the good stuff?

Leave won! Brexit happened! Sunlit uplands remember? So where are they?

Also, what does 'woke' even mean? The word is bandied about constantly, and used as insult, and yet getting a definition of it is surprisingly difficult.

The Daily Mail suggested that builders had GONE WOKE because they, erm, read books, talk about things and don't always eat fried breakfasts.

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View attachment 169480

Well look at JK Rowling for a current example, how she's being cancelled, or attempts to do so, even frozen out by the stars of the HP films. Politicians unable to identify or describe what a woman is. Then you have all the 'white privilege' theories, mobs pulling down statues of historic figures. I don't look into it much but I'm sure I could find countless examples of loony projects and pronouncements.

Builders opening up a bit or reading some decent books I'd not worry about too much. More relevant is the England football team, still taking the knee regarding the George Floyd death, when it's got nothing to do with international football and these overpaid prima donnas.

You say 'woke' is used as an insult, it's shortand for an ideology that composes a set of beliefs, I am not sat here with spittle flying off my lips onto the monitor I can assure you! It's just become a fact of modern life and politics, woke people should own it, may have sounded harsh connecting it to the EU issue but I believe it's an underlying motivator for why so many are passionate about the EU. [just the same as they were obsessed about hating D.Trump every minute of the day, it's 'friend or foe' regarding their set of beliefs]

Well yeah where is the £10 billion we will eventually save, I'd also like to know what whitehall plans to use it for instead.

Sunlit uplands is a phrase that certainly didn't win my brexit vote, it's a typical politician style sound bite, besides you cannot judge post brexit uk this early, or as easily because of the lockdowns and the ongoing international problems.

In 2016 I would have put a 10 year period as a reasonable 1st judging point, might need to be 15 yrs now. Also we spent 4 years debating the exit terms, so realistically 2035.

 

[dunover]

Michael O'Leary not exactly mincing his words.

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View attachment 169482

Jeez. He of low wages, capitalizing on COVID to cheaply reduce workforce then whines like one of his engines when he realizes like many others he's wasted his main asset - staff. Their bean counting is coming back to bite them - and guess what? It's the government's fault.

As for George Floyd - a criminal in a foreign country killed by over-zealous police. It was shocking.

But equally shocking, to me, was that just when this kneeling business started a month after his death 3 members of the LGBT community (including a US citizen) were murdered and 3 injured by some Libyan 'asylum seeker' in Reading. This piece of crap had already been convicted of numerous violent and racially-religiously aggravated attacks beforehand. No minute's silence at sports events for them, no gestures, no publicity.

So the agenda-laden media encourage support for one, while ignoring the other which is far more relevant to UK society. Obviously those three lives don't fit their narrative, as the victims were white and the murderer was a muslim African (who the good old UK taxpayer had hosted and accomodated) not a nasty white cop with a black victim. Silly me, I was thinking ALL lives mattered.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Jeez. He of low wages, capitalizing on COVID to cheaply reduce workforce then whines like one of his engines when he realizes like many others he's wasted his main asset - staff. Their bean counting is coming back to bite them - and guess what? It's the government's fault.

As for George Floyd - a criminal in a foreign country killed by over-zealous police. It was shocking.

But equally shocking, to me, was that just when this kneeling business started a month after his death 3 members of the LGBT community (including a US citizen) were murdered and 3 injured by some Libyan 'asylum seeker' in Reading. This piece of crap had already been convicted of numerous violent and racially-religiously aggravated attacks beforehand. No minute's silence at sports events for them, no gestures, no publicity.

So the agenda-laden media encourage support for one, while ignoring the other which is far more relevant to UK society. Obviously those three lives don't fit their narrative, as the victims were white and the murderer was a muslim African (who the good old UK taxpayer had hosted and accomodated) not a nasty white cop with a black victim. Silly me, I was thinking ALL lives mattered.

I'm no big fan of O'Leary, but he's calling out leaving the Single Market for what it is, a disaster for UK Plc.

Companies like Ryanair prosper because people want things for cheap, they want cheap flights, Ryanair delivers that, and in doing so, yes, they employ quite a lot of unscrupulous practices. Corporations are evil, and they do evil shit, which is why we need strong government to reign in their excesses. The UK government showed no inclination to do that whilst we were in the EU, and it shows equally little inclination to do it now we're outside the EU. (Quite the opposite in fact, as it starts to tear up some of the protections that were afforded to UK citizens under EU law.)

As for 'all lives matter'.

 

[Kroffe]

Well look at JK Rowling for a current example, how she's being cancelled, or attempts to do so, even frozen out by the stars of the HP films.

To be fair she only has herself to blame.
She has tried to play 'both sides' to appease as many people as possible.

She spent a long time trying to make the HP books more 'woke', when people didnt buy it she simply switched teams.
The below video makes a good job explaining what she was doing until she figured out people didnt like it.
Also its pretty funny, 'Professor Snape was a single mother'

 

[pinnit2014]

We may as well appoint Nicola Sturgeon lifetime president of the UK as go back under the control of the EU.

Scary thought - the SNP hate private enterprise, as do their partners in crime, the Greens.

With little desire, nor ideas, on how to grow an economy you'd be left with the only thing they know: increased taxation and regulation

Might see a SNP-LAB-Green power pact, or: a Trinity of Terror

 

[goatwack]

JK Rowling's one of the few high-profile sane people left, and her fighting on behalf of women's rights exemplary, in a world where basic common sense long since left the building. She may have self-inserted and projected most of her ideals into her fantasy books, but her sticking her neck out to fight the 'cancellation' very, very much real.

Same as Sharon Davies' speaking up to protect women's sport, these are not wishy-washy hateful bigots (reeeeeee), they're just women defending their own. Good on them.

Don't know their Brexit allegiance however. If found to be Remainers, I'll reserve the right to edit the entirety of this post