Brexit - whats the difference.....

[paul7388]

As for the green land, we have an awful lot of land in this country that isn't being used for anything, whether or not it could or should be used for farming is neither here nor there in context of the fact it isn't being used for farming now. And these are not the fields you're walking in for the good of your mental health, but vast tracts of land well off the beaten path.

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

 

[goatwack]

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

You won't need land to feed livestock, as we'll be happily chowing down on cricket burgers. Hmm!

 

[pinnit2014]

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

Therein lies the inherent conflict between a Housing Policy and a Green one - they don't go. Not just the houses but the infrastructure around it as well.

Greta will love Choppers: hey, it's sitting there doing nothing, get something built on it.

 

[dunover]

Population densities, here's the data, check for yourself, we're not even top of the pops in Europe let alone the rest of the world. (And not much different to, for example, Germany.)

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View attachment 169550

And as I said in my earlier post, the issue the UK has with population density is how the population is distributed, if you evened out the population across the UK (which is of course a long term project, but is entirely achievable if the desire is there), the places that are more crowded (which aren't even that crowded now) would become less so.

Maybe the government could actually do some of its much vaunted 'levelling up' and get to work on the North-South divide.

As for the green land, we have an awful lot of land in this country that isn't being used for anything, whether or not it could or should be used for farming is neither here nor there in context of the fact it isn't being used for farming now. And these are not the fields you're walking in for the good of your mental health, but vast tracts of land well off the beaten path.

Citing Hong Kong is alarmist nonsense, and you know it, Hong Kong is the fourth most densely populated country in the world, the UK is 49th.

Again, check the data -

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If you're so unhappy about 'the system' picking 'off the shelf migrants' (both your phrases) for jobs instead of salt of the earth UK folks who'd do the jobs if only THE SYSTEM would let them, you should probably have a word with the UK government, last time I checked it was the Tories who'd been in power for twelve years, the same government that's been handing out visas like they're going out of fashion to.... checks notes..... a load of immigrants from non-EU countries, to replace all the folks who won't come here from the EU.

As for growing more of our own food, it'd be handy if we didn't have fields full of perfectly good food rotting in the ground up and down the country, because there aren't enough EU workers to do it, and it turns out HARD WORKING PATRIOTIC BRITS can't be fucking arsed to do it, even when the pay is good.

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

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Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

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Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

I was specifically referencing Belgium and the Netherlands, both of which have a higher population density than the UK, all the piddly little places are just on the chart too (and can obviously be ignored as outliers).

As for the IOM and migration, we have substantial communities on the IOM of Filipino people, our health service would collapse overnight if they all upped sticks and left. One of my colleagues (I'm in IT) and good friend is a Filipino guy (I've been working with him for years, he's hands-down one of the best techies I've ever known), his wife works at the hospital as a nurse (she's done a lot of work on the Covid ward), both their children were born here.

We also have fairly large numbers of Polish and Romanian people here, Mrs Chopley's dentist is a Polish chap, whereas my dentist is an Indian lady. I remember when Mrs Chopley gave birth to our daughter back in 2004, every doctor and specialist in the room (it was a long and difficult birth) was from a different country, including a Trinidadian chap who shouted words of encouragement in a massive booming voice.

When I got a hernia a few years back, the chap who operated on me to fix it was Egyptian, and when I got the snip to save the world from any more Chopley Jnrs, both the surgeon and the anaesthetist were from different countries.

I walked past a building site the other day and all the guys doing the scaffolding were talking to each other in an Eastern European language (for shame, I couldn't tell specifically what it was).

So yes, we have plenty of people from all around the world who have made the IOM their home, and our island is a better place for them, it's no more 'my' island than it is 'their' island, we all live here together, and they contribute massively to both our society and our economy, and indeed several sectors would really struggle without them. (If you go to a restaurant there's a decent chance some of the waiting on staff will be from somewhere in the EU.)

And as their children are born here, their children are Manx, because they were born on the Isle of Man, same as my daughter is Manx, because she was born here - they are all part of the fabric and culture of the Isle of Man, and that culture will change over time, and that's fine, because I'm not all dewy-eyed and nostalgic for some imagined time of greatness that the UK is supposed to have enjoyed and has now been lost. (I mean, what are we supposed to be really proud of, colonisation? The days of empire when we brutally subjugated and terrorised any country unfortunate enough to be 'civilised' by us?)

So yes, there's a substantial amount of migration taking place to the Isle of Man, from all over the world, there has been for years, and it doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Kroffe]

I dont know how it works in the UK, but immigration here in Sweden is not exactly a massive increase of highly skilled workers coming in.
Not saying that there are not doctors coming in aswell, but for every 1 doctor that comes in and functions as a 'normal' member of society you have alot of people that come here that refuse to learn the language, have no will to educate themselves or work etc.

In the end i think most of it is 'our' fault (politicians more like it), we took in too many and were too lax with making sure people integrated before taking in even more.
So now we have mini-communities within our normal communities where people dont speak the language because they have no need to since everyone around them speaks their own language already.

Solution seems simple enough, or atleast it would have been easy, sprinkle immigrants throughout the country instead of putting all of them in one place. But i guess it would have been racist to force immigrants to live in Northern Sweden.
Would have been easy to do back then, now not so much.

Im not against immigration, but if you dont intend to integrate yourself with Swedish society which means learning the language, loving IKEA, eating meatballs, and respecting the laws/values we have here, then dont fucking come here.

 

[bamberfishcake]

f you're so unhappy about 'the system' picking 'off the shelf migrants' (both your phrases) for jobs instead of salt of the earth UK folks who'd do the jobs if only THE SYSTEM would let them, you should probably have a word with the UK government, last time I checked it was the Tories who'd been in power for twelve years, the same government that's been handing out visas like they're going out of fashion to.... checks notes..... a load of immigrants from non-EU countries, to replace all the folks who won't come here from the EU.

As for growing more of our own food, it'd be handy if we didn't have fields full of perfectly good food rotting in the ground up and down the country, because there aren't enough EU workers to do it, and it turns out HARD WORKING PATRIOTIC BRITS can't be fucking arsed to do it, even when the pay is good.

I agree there is plenty of spare land to build on, and space is not an issue unless you're an immigrant sharing a 1 bedroom flat with six or seven others.

Your above post though is worlds apart from my perception of the south of England. Its nothing to do with Tories or Labour, and the sooner you stop pretending that either side really matters you will remain closed-minded on your opinion - just my opinion

There are plenty of Brits ready to fill the jobs but the farms would rather pay immigrants cash. If somebody is not prepared to work we have organisations like job centres and the Universal Credit program, whose job it is to find placements.

There is no real inherent issue with many of the systems and procedures to make things work but the crux of the issue is - none are adhered to, executed the right way, or policed professionally and efficiently as a so-called government should do.

This issue, my friend, is not the Tories, Labour or any other mirage of ideology, but the greedy buggers above them, playing god and raking it in.

 

[goatwack]

I don't particularly believe that an idyllic outpost housing 84,000 people is generally a good indicator for a country whose citizens number 60 million, but there you go.

And it's no secret that one will find Eastern European workers in the building trade, nor the recruitment drive of Commonwealth workers into the Health sector, brought about by.....'colonization', I take it. All the while ignoring the matter of also furthering their careers and life opportunities, no doubt, because it works both ways. Nor do I believe that dissolving a country's heritage and culture into the ether is the done thing, it's rather disingenuous given all that Britain's given to the world, whether it be through the Arts, invention or industry.

Look further afield to the Middle East or pretty much all of Asia and you'll see how quickly they forego their culture to suit the needs of other nationalities. But I guess if into Globalization, then Britain's fair game. The very nation that has bent over backwards to accommodate people of all creeds for generations. But yes, we'll stick with calling them the Galactic Empire, that's the 'in-thing' to do right?

So what's new? London's chokka with various ethnicities and nationalities, and no one bats an eyelid, as it's a non-issue and always has been.

Still doesn't negate the fact that at *some* point in the future, even this multi-cultural society will feel the pinch themselves, as services break down, kids can't find school placements and job prospects become ever more tenuous. And I guess that's round about the time you'll hear the friendly Trinidadian nurse and Polish dentist echo the same sentiment, that Britain has finite resources to go around, before we all start stepping on each other's toes!

 

[pinnit2014]

I dont know how it works in the UK, but immigration here in Sweden is not exactly a massive increase of highly skilled workers coming in.
Not saying that there are not doctors coming in aswell, but for every 1 doctor that comes in and functions as a 'normal' member of society you have alot of people that come here that refuse to learn the language, have no will to educate themselves or work etc.

In the end i think most of it is 'our' fault (politicians more like it), we took in too many and were too lax with making sure people integrated before taking in even more.
So now we have mini-communities within our normal communities where people dont speak the language because they have no need to since everyone around them speaks their own language already.

Solution seems simple enough, or atleast it would have been easy, sprinkle immigrants throughout the country instead of putting all of them in one place. But i guess it would have been racist to force immigrants to live in Northern Sweden.
Would have been easy to do back then, now not so much.

Im not against immigration, but if you dont intend to integrate yourself with Swedish society which means learning the language, loving IKEA, eating meatballs, and respecting the laws/values we have here, then dont fucking come here.


View attachment 169561

Where do you stand on Bonanza lovers?

Tougher immigration laws or just an outright: get away, you've obviously mental with no sense of economics?

 

[paul7388]

So yes, there's a substantial amount of migration taking place to the Isle of Man, from all over the world, there has been for years, and it doesn't bother me at all.

But you spoke about Doctors, nurses , construction workers etc.

Fair enough . But how many areas of IOM are full of immigrants that have never worked a day in their lives.

How many immigrants are there on the IOM that came to the Island. Never spoke a word of English and never will. Who contribute nothing. Who go straight into newly built houses where benefits pay their rent and the people born and bred in the area can not get houses to rent or are put on long waiting lists for houses they probably cant afford to run even tho they work.

It is all right talking about Immigrants that come to your Island. Work, pay their way and contribute to society.

Unfortunately in the real world the vast amount come, Get everything handed to them on a plate, contribute nothing and do not even try to learn English and integrate. And i will not even go into things like many still look at woman as if they are nothing and treat them similair.

Then we are now expected to change our way of living to suit them and not cause them offence.

 

[Kroffe]

Where do you stand on Bonanza lovers?

Tougher immigration laws or just an outright: get away, you've obviously mental with no sense of economics?

I dont see how a Bonanza lover could ever become a fully functioning member of the society.
That does not mean i wouldnt be prepared to accept 1 or maybe 2 into Sweden to atleast try, we could put them on Gotland so there is no risk of the Bonanza-fever spreading to a large part of the population.

 

[pinnit2014]

I dont see how a Bonanza lover could ever become a fully functioning member of the society.
That does not mean i wouldnt be prepared to accept 1 or maybe 2 into Sweden to atleast try, we could put them on Gotland so there is no risk of the Bonanza-fever spreading to a large part of the population.

Goldland?

See you there!

 

[justdoit]

500k tax a year?

Business owner?

yep import export since 2002, when I started I need to pay my self from my saving till I build profit

 

[justdoit]

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

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Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

no need for Gibraltar and Monaco?( Jersey,island of man) look now what is happen no migrant all airline companies are struggling no staff, coz British refuse to work for £25k £35k a year

this is only BA they are 100s of other companies they have same problem...
UK without London will be dead long time ago, and London without migrant will not work 24/7
Did British when to India nicking Indian country on behalf of the Queen of England? and Call every Indian to get British Passport, Same with Hong Kong etc,
Maybe you should watch this English dud he show real UK

 

[justdoit]

London is dirty money capital, everyone know City of London is country on their own law inside UK build for money laundering, made by British

​

 

[goatwack]

Leading the way! Yee-harrr!

Setting benchmarks in alternative banking!

 

[Webzcas]

Can someone tell me as to why the migrants risking their lives undertaking the channel crossing from France to England, which by all accounts puts them in debt to the tune of several thousand sheets to people smugglers, do not seek refuge and asylum in France? Or indeed other EU countries they travel through before getting to the French coast?

Unless they have a wormhole allowing them to transport direct to the coast from their place of origin, but even then, they are in a 'first world' country, which more to the point is in the EU!!!! Which according to many, membership of is so much better being part of.

So what is the lure of the UK that makes hundreds of people each and every day risk their lives and putting themselves into modern day slavery scenarios with the people smugglers?

Asking genuinely.

I am all for the UK accepting and taking in genuine refugees and know of several people who have offered places for Ukrainians. But seriously, we have to have some form of controls of our borders.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

One of the main reasons cited is family connections, also quite a lot of them speak English, but no French, or German, or whatever.

In many cases these people have been through a hell of a lot to get as far as the French coast, so making one final push to get to the UK is seen as being worth the risk.

The BBC did a report on it earlier in the year -

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[ChopleyIOM]

I’ve always thought that the New Labour government was one of the worst things that happened to the UK. How many of the foundations for today’s issues were laid back then?!

OK then let's have a look at what New Labour achieved on their watch. I'd be interested to see the list for the Tories over the last twelve years.

HEALTH

Reduced NHS waiting times by 82%
85,000 more nurses
Free eye tests and bus travel for over 60s
Heart disease deaths down 150,000
Cancer deaths down 50,000
Free breast screening for 50-70 year-olds
In-patient waiting lists down half a million
Created NHS Direct

POVERTY

600,000 children lifted out of poverty
1 million pensioners lifted out of poverty
26% increase in child benefit
Introduced winter fuel payments
Made improvements to 1 million social homes
Introduced child Tax Credits
Created 3 million child trust funds

EMPLOYMENT

Introduced the first minimum wage
Created 1.8 million new jobs
Cut long term unemployment by 75%
Doubled the number of apprenticeships
Introduced the right to 24 days holiday
Introduced 2 weeks paternity leave

EDUCATION

Doubled education funding for every pupil
36,000 additional teachers
Added 274,000 teaching assistants
2,200 Sure Start centres
Record literacy
Record numeracy
Free nursery places
Free fruit for 4-6 year-olds

SOCIAL / CULTURAL

Scrapped Section 28
Introduced Civil Partnerships
Banned fox hunting
Free TV licenses to over 75s
Free entry to museums and art galleries
Smoking ban
Olympics and the sporting legacy since destroyed by Tories

SECURITY

Peace in Ireland (building on John Major's work, but still, completed by Labour)
Added 14,000 extra police
Cut crime by 35%
Increased criminal justice (court) spending by 21%

ECONOMY

Longest period of low inflation growth since 1960
Created an independent Bank of England
Wrote off debt for dozens of poor nations
Doubled overseas aid (a better life at home reduces the incentive to migrate to the UK)
Created GiftAid

MISCELLANEOUS STUFF

Introduced devolution for Scotland and Wales
Banned fur farming
Brought the Human Rights Act into UK law
And created the cleanest rivers, beaches, water and air since the industrial revolution

 

[goatwack]

Borrowing billions despite being handed a booming economy

Increasing debt on your average person, with home ownership a no-no

Tanking the economy

Being soft on crime

Encouraging illegal immigration

Dragging the country into an illegal war

Those were just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could add another 150 (minimum)

 

[goatwack]

So there it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Labour pledging to not seek an immediate return to the EU, preferring to make Brexit work, which is the sort of thing that instantly reassures any potential swing voters. The five points are:

- Not quite joining the EU

- Cosying up to the EU

- Being rather 'EU-ey'

- Hoping to become a member of the EU with incessant shoulder-rubbing with EU leaders

- Promising the EU that Bwexit was a doo-doo

That's assuming Keir survives the cull, once fined for 'Really not drinking beer that time, but ok I did' Beergate, and doesn't resign.

Then, when he's decided whether to support the Unions or admonish them (ie 'never') he'll decide whether to lead Labour into this reparative Promised Land, where the memory of Brexit can be washed away. If not him, then there's always someone else to lead the party, and likely not want to rejoin the EU either (fat chance).

But then there's still the Election to be won. So we can rule that one out as well.

Not to worry. Let's raise a glass to his vision at least. Cheers, Kezza!

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[ChopleyIOM]

It's a smart play by Starmer, Brexit is the only drum the morally-bereft Tory party has left to bang now, when they wheel out some incompetent low-grade minister to do the press, all they can really say that's positive about Johnson (in their heads at least) is that he 'GOT BREXIT DONE'. That's all they have left to cling to, even as the Brexit house comes crashing down under the weight of its own lies, they'll sit in the house as it crushes them to death, waving their Union Jacks whilst babbling incoherently about sovereignty,

If Starmer says Labour would seek a return to the Single Market and Customs Union (both of which require quite a lot of EU rule following), Johnson will pounce on it like a Tory MP pouncing on whoever they're sexually assaulting that day (pick a Tory MP sex-pest, there are loads of them to choose from!). *

That would then become the defining issue of the next election, 'Forget about all the parties, lies and depravity, they're going to take YOUR Brexit away! KEEP BREXIT DONE'.

Brexit is a incredible motivator for some... the only 'win' of their entire lives in a lot of cases. By taking the reversal of Brexit off the table, Starmer effectively neuters Johnson, depriving him of his core support.

Brexit will eat itself eventually (it's already gnawing its own legs off). The first and foremost thing at the moment is to get the Tories out, we need to be inside the tent pissing out, not the other way around, and that means getting into government.

The Tories will re-weaponize Brexit in a heartbeat if Starmer gives them anything whatsoever to hook the attack onto, Starmer hasn't given them that hook. No attempt to reverse any of the fundamentals of Brexit under a Labour government, it's a sensible message.

The demographics are against both Brexit and the Tories, the supporters of both are literally dying of old age, and they're not being replaced by younger people, time will fix this one, we just need to be patient.

*

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[mack341]

Starmer is probably being closely advised by Blair on how to handle things, he knows all about putting on a mask in order to win votes, playing the old left and disaffected tories.

 

[goatwack]

I still ponder over how Labour would have fared under John Smith, as he was quite prominent in that Major/ Ashdown era of politics before his untimely death? Would his shaping of Labour policies have led to that '97 landslide, or was that purely based on voters' Tory apathy?

Blair's infectious optimism was certainly evident during that era, I still remember it well!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I still ponder over how Labour would have fared under John Smith, as he was quite prominent in that Major/ Ashdown era of politics before his untimely death? Would his shaping of Labour policies have led to that '97 landslide, or was that purely based on voters' Tory apathy?

Blair's infectious optimism was certainly evident during that era, I still remember it well!

The Tories were done by the mid-90s, a deeply unpopular party, mired in sleaze, riven with internal strife, and pretty much unable to govern in anything like an effective manner (hey, sounds familiar!). And remember they'd also given us the economic disaster of 'Black Wednesday' in 1992.

Labour would have won under John Smith, and quite frankly I'd have preferred that, I'm not the world's biggest fan of Tony Blair. Although Gordon Brown I have a lot of respect for as a decent and principled politician, the worst mistake he ever made was to not go for a general election after he did a very good job of steering the UK (and leading the world) on a path through the global financial meltdown of 2008-2009.