Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

This is a very good point, no one's even pretending that Brexit won't be economically damaging any more, and the Coronavirus has already proved to be so.

What kind of kamikaze government would knowingly inflict a voluntary economic shock on its own people, when there is already a serious and involuntary one in progress, that's probably going to get a lot worse?

Surely the sensible thing to do here is extend the transition period. Not cancel Brexit, not try to reverse the result of the referendum, but to calmly and rationally decide that the risks of a disorderly exit from the EU, in conjunction with the Coronavirus, could inflict massive economic and social harm on the UK, and it's probably a good idea to, y'know, not do that.

Truly reckless behaviour from the government, literally gambling with peoples lives.

 

[mack341]

The virus will disappear once enough sunlight hits these shores, hopefully by late May say. I wouldn't massively object to a small extension, if required, due to this virus. Though I think this economic shock business is overrated, extra paperwork and wto tariffs are not the end of the world if a deal cannot be concluded.

The Freedom to set our own rules and laws long term is more important; the EU want us to remain a follower of their rulings and dictates forever more, it's a non-starter as a term for a trade deal with a country, that has a parliamentary democracy like ours.

And the EU have created the need for lots of extra paperwork themselves over the years.

 

[Matti]

This is a very good point, no one's even pretending that Brexit won't be economically damaging any more, and the Coronavirus has already proved to be so.

What kind of kamikaze government would knowingly inflict a voluntary economic shock on its own people, when there is already a serious and involuntary one in progress, that's probably going to get a lot worse?

Surely the sensible thing to do here is extend the transition period. Not cancel Brexit, not try to reverse the result of the referendum, but to calmly and rationally decide that the risks of a disorderly exit from the EU, in conjunction with the Coronavirus, could inflict massive economic and social harm on the UK, and it's probably a good idea to, y'know, not do that.

Truly reckless behaviour from the government, literally gambling with peoples lives.

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Normally agree with most of your posts but honestly an extension of the transition is for me not an alternative. You are on your own. Sorry.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well to do so would actually be in everyone's interests, since every single forecast for what happens after the transition period ends predicts economic damage for both the UK and the remaining EU members, although admittedly we're kicking ourselves in the nuts the hardest, and we started it all in the first place, so I can understand there being something of a lack of sympathy.

Italy looks almost certain to dip into a genuine financial crisis soon, with the economic fallout of Coronavirus tipping it over the edge.

It seems to me like this is a time for EU countries to continue to try and work together, although I'd be the first to admit that the disgusting antics of The Brexit Party in the European Parliament would test the patience of a saint past breaking point. (But hey, an awful lot of Brits wanted to curl up and die when they saw Farage and his cabal of cretins behaving like that.)

 

[dunover]

Well to do so would actually be in everyone's interests, since every single forecast for what happens after the transition period ends predicts economic damage for both the UK and the remaining EU members, although admittedly we're kicking ourselves in the nuts the hardest, and we started it all in the first place, so I can understand there being something of a lack of sympathy.

Italy looks almost certain to dip into a genuine financial crisis soon, with the economic fallout of Coronavirus tipping it over the edge.

It seems to me like this is a time for EU countries to continue to try and work together, although I'd be the first to admit that the disgusting antics of The Brexit Party in the European Parliament would test the patience of a saint past breaking point. (But hey, an awful lot of Brits wanted to curl up and die when they saw Farage and his cabal of cretins behaving like that.)

Funny how now there are projections of economic doom due to Corona Virus, the remainers have jumped on the bandwagon to spout their nonsense under cover of obfuscation as to how much of that damage can be directly attributed to Brexit.

 

[steveh35]

Well to do so would actually be in everyone's interests, since every single forecast for what happens after the transition period ends predicts economic damage for both the UK and the remaining EU members, although admittedly we're kicking ourselves in the nuts the hardest, and we started it all in the first place, so I can understand there being something of a lack of sympathy.

Italy looks almost certain to dip into a genuine financial crisis soon, with the economic fallout of Coronavirus tipping it over the edge.

It seems to me like this is a time for EU countries to continue to try and work together, although I'd be the first to admit that the disgusting antics of The Brexit Party in the European Parliament would test the patience of a saint past breaking point. (But hey, an awful lot of Brits wanted to curl up and die when they saw Farage and his cabal of cretins behaving like that.)

What has the EU done for Coronavirus so far, errrr um oh just a minute I will think of one thing in a minute errr no can't think of a thing they have done to help Italy or any other country.

 

[mack341]

Well to do so would actually be in everyone's interests, since every single forecast for what happens after the transition period ends predicts economic damage for both the UK and the remaining EU members, although admittedly we're kicking ourselves in the nuts the hardest, and we started it all in the first place, so I can understand there being something of a lack of sympathy.

Italy looks almost certain to dip into a genuine financial crisis soon, with the economic fallout of Coronavirus tipping it over the edge.

It seems to me like this is a time for EU countries to continue to try and work together, although I'd be the first to admit that the disgusting antics of The Brexit Party in the European Parliament would test the patience of a saint past breaking point. (But hey, an awful lot of Brits wanted to curl up and die when they saw Farage and his cabal of cretins behaving like that.)

Blimey if Nigel's leaving speech and the brexit party's mini celebration upset them to that degree they must be very fragile indeed, and not up to the task. The brexit party MEPs waved some tiny union jack flags at the end of Nigel's speech... If this meets the criteria of 'disgusting antics' I must be from another planet...

Cutting his mike to censor him was more worrying to me, that this is an EU tactic doesn't suprise me though

 

[sufferinsilence]

What has the EU done for Coronavirus so far, errrr um oh just a minute I will think of one thing in a minute errr no can't think of a thing they have done to help Italy or any other country.

Yeah I'm pretty disappointed in how all of this is being handled. Not only by the EU mind you but by individual countries too. Italy decided to bring in Chinese experts to handle the situation.

 

[geordiecolin]

What has the EU done for Coronavirus so far, errrr um oh just a minute I will think of one thing in a minute errr no can't think of a thing they have done to help Italy or any other country.

The European Central Bank are in a blind panic because its looking likely that they can no longer avoid stumping up money to EU Countries. They caused chaos on the stock markets and the Euro plunged after they stated that it was for individual Countries to sort out their own troubles. Eventually they had to backtrack before the Euro achieved total meltdown.
As the UK are still a member state will the ECB treat the UK the same as other members and help bail out costs?

 

[goatwack]

Never thought Brexit could ever be considered a 'pleasant distraction' from current events. Who knew

 

[steveh35]

The European Central Bank are in a blind panic because its looking likely that they can no longer avoid stumping up money to EU Countries. They caused chaos on the stock markets and the Euro plunged after they stated that it was for individual Countries to sort out their own troubles. Eventually they had to backtrack before the Euro achieved total meltdown.
As the UK are still a member state will the ECB treat the UK the same as other members and help bail out costs?

The EU never gets involved in anything it doesn't make money on, the Brussels terror attack they packed up the office and went home and hid until Brussels the country sorted it out, Spain vs UK on Gibraltar, that's for them to sort out, Catalonia vs Spain, that's for them to sort out.

The EU is not fit for purpose it wants to be the biggest power in the world but not when there's trouble that's nothing to do with them guv.

 

[slotplayer]

Blimey if Nigel's leaving speech and the brexit party's mini celebration upset them to that degree they must be very fragile indeed, and not up to the task. The brexit party MEPs waved some tiny union jack flags at the end of Nigel's speech... If this meets the criteria of 'disgusting antics' I must be from another planet...

Cutting his mike to censor him was more worrying to me, that this is an EU tactic doesn't suprise me though

Nigel is Great. I like when he's on here.

He said they want to ban the national flag? What is that all about?

 

[mack341]

Nigel is Great. I like when he's on here.

He said they want to ban the national flag? What is that all about?

yeah he's a one off is old nige, I don't think Brexit would ever have happened without all his campaigning over the years. He nearly died to in a plane crash about 10 years ago, so he's a lucky man in many ways to be around. He'll probably catch coronavirus now I've said that.

I think inside the EU 'parliament' the national flags are banned but the EU flag is okay, you can wave that as much as you want, a united states of Europe is the end goal.

A longish copy and paste from the remix new's site, jan 2020:

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European Parliament politicians have been ordered to remove the national flags from the desks by European Parliament President David Sassoli, a move that many MEPs complained was as an attack and just the EU's latest attack on national sovereignty.

Why? According to the new rules, national flags are considered "banners", which are banned in the European Parliament.

Sassoli said he made the decision based on the provision in the rules of procedure, which deals with "disturbing order in the plenary room."

Jan Zahradil, Czech MEP for Civic Democratic Party (ODS) said, "The European Parliament's leadership has placed national flags decorating the parliamentary bench in the plenary room in the 'banner' category, but banners are forbidden to use in the plenary."

"We (ODS) will not put the Czech flag on the bench, but we will protest against this stupid measure," he added.

British MEP Nigel Farage also commented on the removal of national flags from the parliamentary benches, saying it is another attempt from Brussels to suppress the sovereignty of states.

“We have just had our Union Jack flags removed from our desks in the European Parliament, by order of the President. National symbols are now banned. Thank god for Brexit," wrote Farage on his Facebook page.

Farage said last month that the EU's anti-nationalism is leading to a revolt against its policies across Europe and that the flag ban is just the latest attempt to attack any symbol of the nationalist sentiment.

“People do not want to be run and governed by faceless bureaucrats… you’re being rejected,” said Farage in a statement direct at EU leaders. “…Brexit is the beginning of the end of this project, we are giving leadership to a Europe of sovereign states, working together, being friends together but not being run by the gang down at the middle there.”

Although the flag banning is a symbolic gesture, it speaks to a general trend in the European Parliament of anti-nationalism.

In the past, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has weighed in on the importance of the nation state and its relation to the EU,

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that “currently Brussels is ruled by those who want to replace the union of nation states with a European empire."

Orbán continued by saying, “Europe is the home of nation states, not a melting pot.”


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I think there are similarities between the US deep state and the EU, it's unaccountable power in a nutshell, anybody who threatens to challenge it [ like trump, farage or even bernie ] is mercilessly attacked and ridiculed from noon to night. Not saying nigel and donald are without faults but they are popular. I can see a future world where the corporations run everything and democracy is a thing of the past, it's half way there already, we just have a superficial democracy, I don't think trump has managed to drain the swamp yet, it'll be interesting if john durham collars anyone for misdeeds.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So anyone here still going to genuinely advocate for not asking for a transition period extension?

We're on the cusp of a global recession, it's essentially inevitable at the point, doing something that will absolutely hurt the UK economy even further, and lessen our ability to respond effectively to a global pandemic is obviously really daft, right?

People are gouging each other's eyes out for tins of beans as it is, imagine what'd happen when the transition period ends and by default, we throw up massive barriers, tariffs and customs checks to our closest trading partners?

'Blitz spirit', the Brexiteers said, 'We've survived worse', 'The British people all pull together', 'When the chips are down is when we're at our best'.

British People - Fighting over toilet roll. When there is no shortage of toilet roll, until they created one.

 

[goatwack]

Of course people want an extension, why on earth would they not?

Bit of a 'side issue' occupying people's lives at present. No sane person would want to talk about Brexit right now, unless some believe those that voted to leave are just morose nationalists with Bojo posters adorning their bedrooms

 

[paul7388]

Can honestly say that at the moment i hardly think anyone will be worrying about what Brexit means for the country.

Think people are more worried about what's happening right now in their lives.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Bit of a 'side issue' occupying people's lives at present. No sane person would want to talk about Brexit right now, unless some believe those that voted to leave are just morose nationalists with Bojo posters adorning their bedrooms

I would never, ever think that.

Never ever ever.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But here's the thing, if it's a good idea to not throw everything up in the air in a time of crisis, why is it a good idea to do it in normal times? Because another crisis will come along eventually. It's almost as if..... being in the EU is actually a good thing as it cushions us against some of the worst impacts of things like this because we're all working together as part of a bloc, whilst still retaining full control of the details of how we handle stuff in our own country.

 

[goatwack]

But here's the thing, if it's a good idea to not throw everything up in the air in a time of crisis, why is it a good idea to do it in normal times? Because another crisis will come along eventually. It's almost as if..... being in the EU is actually a good thing as it cushions us against some of the worst impacts of things like this because we're all working together as part of a bloc, whilst still retaining full control of the details of how we handle stuff in our own country.

I like the sound of that. How does one get to vote to join

 

[dunover]

So anyone here still going to genuinely advocate for not asking for a transition period extension?

We're on the cusp of a global recession, it's essentially inevitable at the point, doing something that will absolutely hurt the UK economy even further, and lessen our ability to respond effectively to a global pandemic is obviously really daft, right?

People are gouging each other's eyes out for tins of beans as it is, imagine what'd happen when the transition period ends and by default, we throw up massive barriers, tariffs and customs checks to our closest trading partners?

'Blitz spirit', the Brexiteers said, 'We've survived worse', 'The British people all pull together', 'When the chips are down is when we're at our best'.

British People - Fighting over toilet roll. When there is no shortage of toilet roll, until they created one.

I actually agree - they should extend the 2020 continuation/transition period to Dec 31 2021. It's impossible to concentrate (both parties) on getting a deal done by the end of this year. Plus we will all learn lessons from this China Crisis which would be better incorporated into the post-Brexit agreement.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So in the simplest of terms, in times of crisis, being a part of the EU (even if only in transition) is a good thing and it'd be daft to leave during a crisis.

Then eventually we're out, and the next crisis comes along, so by default we're in a worse spot than if we were still a member.

Just imagine if we'd left the EU in a disorderly fashion three months before the Coronavirus kicked off.....

Here's the Tesco on the IOM this evening, this is when there isn't even a genuine shortage of anything and our EU-wide supply lines are running at full capacity..... People have gone batshit about pretend shortages and created them out of thin air. Imagine what it'd be like if there were actual genuine shortages.

Anyone who offers any statement along the lines of 'British people know how to pull together in times of difficulty' (with regard to Brexit or anything else) from here on in is immediately disqualified from the conversation

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Number 5 is particularly important (although they're all good points).

To my mind this pandemic crisis really crystallises why Brexit is just a flat out bad idea in the first place, voluntarily introducing uncertainty, bureaucracy, customs checks, trade barriers, extra cost, staffing uncertainty etc at a national level always seemed bonkers to me. (As evidenced by the fact there's an increasing political consensus around an extension to the transition being necessary now we're in a state of crisis.)

Thing is, it's just a logical step on from that to realise why it makes no sense full stop. There's always going to be another Coronavirus like event coming along at some point.

I mean, who's getting excited about blue passports and 'taking back control' now, because a deadly virus doesn't give a fuck about any of that shit. (As we can also see, it doesn't respect borders either, and no we would not be able to keep it out by stopping impoverished immigrants at the border, as the main spreaders are actually wealthy folks who do a lot of holidaying and travelling.)

 

[goatwack]

So in the simplest of terms, in times of crisis, being a part of the EU (even if only in transition) is a good thing and it'd be daft to leave during a crisis.

Then eventually we're out, and the next crisis comes along, so by default we're in a worse spot than if we were still a member.

Just imagine if we'd left the EU in a disorderly fashion three months before the Coronavirus kicked off.....

Here's the Tesco on the IOM this evening, this is when there isn't even a genuine shortage of anything and our EU-wide supply lines are running at full capacity..... People have gone batshit about pretend shortages and created them out of thin air. Imagine what it'd be like if there were actual genuine shortages.

Anyone who offers any statement along the lines of 'British people know how to pull together in times of difficulty' (with regard to Brexit or anything else) from here on in is immediately disqualified from the conversation

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British people pulling together in times of crisis and helping thy fellow neighbour is a myth. People today are more egocentric than at any other point in history. So Bojo and the likes doing their best war-time speech and 'plucky' British optimism routine is utter BS

 

[ChopleyIOM]

British people pulling together in times of crisis and helping thy fellow neighbour is a myth. People today are more egocentric than at any other point in history. So Bojo and the likes doing their best war-time speech and 'plucky' British optimism routine is utter BS

I've seen the myth put forward plenty often enough in this very thread.....

 

[goatwack]

I've seen the myth put forward plenty often enough in this very thread.....

Stop it with your valid counter-arguments will you, I'm sick of losing