Brexit - whats the difference.....

[cncas2123]

Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?

 

[Webzcas]

I think you have pretty much nailed it. However, I believe you don't have to take EU laws though.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Reality has finally collided with fantasy when it comes to Brexit.

Any 'Deal' is worse than what we already have, for myriad reasons and varying by option, and 'No Deal' is a catastrophe.

This was where it was always going to end up once Theresa May had drawn her red lines, it's just taken us a while to get here.

 

[pinnit2014]

Still would come attached with Free movement i think?

Christ knows what trade deal the UK would end up with if their negotiation skills to date are anything to go by.

 

[steveh35]

Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?

Customs union does not incorporate freedom of movement i believe.

Also any of the votes tonight are useless unless they pass the withdrawal agreement as the EU says we have to have a withdrawal agreement.

The purpose of a customs union is to make trade easier.

Countries in a customs union agree not to impose charges - known as tariffs - or custom checks on each other's goods.

The rules also mean that any goods coming in from the rest of the world pay the same tariff - irrespective of where in the customs union those goods first enter.

This is known as a common tariff.

For example, a car from the US entering the EU customs union currently attracts a tariff of 10% of the car's value. It doesn't matter if the car arrives in France, Spain or anywhere else - the same one-off 10% charge is applied.

That car can then move between all the customs union countries without incurring extra costs or custom checks.

 

[nikantw]

EU is doomed if democracy doesn't return.
If it doesn't any deal won't matter because there won't be any EU left in 2-4 years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

because there won't be any EU left in 2-4 years.

You'll find people who have been saying that for 20 years or more..... It's more a wish than a likely reality.

 

[nikantw]

You'll find people who have been saying that for 20 years or more..... It's more a wish than a likely reality.

My wish is for democracy.

 

[goatwack]

My wish is for a Banana Republic

 

[ChopleyIOM]

My wish is for democracy.

Last time I checked all EU member states had national elections to their own parliaments, and also sent elected MEPs to the European parliament.

Kind of sounds like democracy to me.

 

[steveh35]

Last time I checked all EU member states had national elections to their own parliaments, and also sent elected MEPs to the European parliament.

Kind of sounds like democracy to me.

Who elected Juncker and co? not the people who voted in the european elections that's for sure.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Who elected Juncker and co? not the people who voted in the european elections that's for sure.

But the mechanism by which the President of the European Commission is decided has been well known and widely accepted for decades, I doubt that's what people were getting all cross about when they voted in the referendum.

Plus of course, we've had a UK President of the European Commission in Roy Jenkins, not long after we joined, so it's not like some sort of snobby EU club we're excluded from.

There's no good way to slice this, leaving the EU for the UK is simply variations of choosing what limb we wish to amputate. All options are bad.

Every Deal or in particular No Deal hurts us and leaves us weaker, the only sane option is revoking Article 50, or putting it back to the people in another referendum now we know what 'Deal' and 'No Deal' actually look like. SPOILER ALERT - They're both fucking horrible.

 

[goatwack]

I'd read about how it's still possible to revoke Article 50 a while back, though it's legally muddled at best and I think even that 'deadline' has slipped by. Though who knows what's bloody going on anymore

Though just imagine Theresa May addressing the nation live: "Look serfs, I was just messin' with y'all. We're staying in the EU. Lap it up, bitches" before exiting stage left doing that robot dance of hers

 

[mack341]

But the mechanism by which the President of the European Commission is decided has been well known and widely accepted for decades, I doubt that's what people were getting all cross about when they voted in the referendum.

Plus of course, we've had a UK President of the European Commission in Roy Jenkins, not long after we joined, so it's not like some sort of snobby EU club we're excluded from.

There's no good way to slice this, leaving the EU for the UK is simply variations of choosing what limb we wish to amputate. All options are bad.

Every Deal or in particular No Deal hurts us and leaves us weaker, the only sane option is revoking Article 50, or putting it back to the people in another referendum now we know what 'Deal' and 'No Deal' actually look like. SPOILER ALERT - They're both fucking horrible.

taken from the bbc website re IOM:

"The island is not part of the United Kingdom or European Union, but has the status of 'crown dependency', similar to Jersey and Guernsey, with an independent administration. Its inhabitants are British citizens."

So I wonder how the trade and free movement works in IOM's situation? What would happen if IOM became part of the EU???

 

[ChopleyIOM]

taken from the bbc website re IOM:

"The island is not part of the United Kingdom or European Union, but has the status of 'crown dependency', similar to Jersey and Guernsey, with an independent administration. Its inhabitants are British citizens."

So I wonder how the trade and free movement works in IOM's situation? What would happen if IOM became part of the EU???

Specifically on a No Deal Brexit - our government has published an extensive public report on this, freely available to download and view. (Link below.)

TL : DR - Everything will get worse, except in the best case scenario where they might just about stay the same. Specifically to the IOM, the one benefit we might get is more tourists because it'll be too difficult and/or expensive to travel to Europe for UK residents.

Do note that our government has no 'skin in the game' as it were, so this is the most objective analysis you're likely to see as to what No Deal actually looks like for real people and businesses.

As for your question, it's kind of dealt with in the document, we have a lot of reciprocal agreements.

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[mack341]

Specifically on a No Deal Brexit - our government has published an extensive public report on this, freely available to download and view. (Link below.)

TL : DR - Everything will get worse, except in the best case scenario where they might just about stay the same. Specifically to the IOM, the one benefit we might get is more tourists because it'll be too difficult and/or expensive to travel to Europe for UK residents.

Do note that our government has no 'skin in the game' as it were, so this is the most objective analysis you're likely to see as to what No Deal actually looks like for real people and businesses.

As for your question, it's kind of dealt with in the document, we have a lot of reciprocal agreements.

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Thanks Chopley, I see it is a bit complicated but I noted this:

So whilst the Isle of Man is covered by most EU rules relating to the free movement of goods, it is not covered by EU rules concerning free movement of people, services or investment. Out of the whole body of EU law, only a relatively small proportion of that law currently applies to the Island

So if you had a mini local referendum on the IOM joining the EU and adopting their rules/laws regarding people, services and investment, plus switching to the Euro, how would you vote?
[sorry just to add, and the brief reasons 'why' if no or if yes]

 

[mack341]

This speech below from the german parliament which rees-mogg retweeted today is worth viewing for brexiteers and remainers alike. I understand her party, AFD, is described by the mainstream media as right wing or extremist but that seems to be the way to shut down any views different to the liberal elite's, she certainly doesn't seem hostile to us Brits in any case.

 

[Okman]

I fail to see how describing the AfD as right wing isn’t correct? Their policies are ultra conservative and populist, which by definition puts them on the right wing of the political spectrum. Mainstream media describing them as such isn’t simply the will of your so called “liberal elites” and just a reflection of their policies.

I agree that media organisations will align their stance according to whomever controls them, but to argue that it is just dog whistling to describe AfD as right/extreme right is incorrect.

Tldr; does what it says on the tin.

 

[sledge13]

We've had all this once before from Cameron and Osbourne, straight after any Brexit vote, prices would shoot up, mass unemployment instantly and the devil will rise again, um now...unemployment at a 50 year low...

No deal? why would anyone want a deal with unelected drunk mugs like "Lord Junker" and the rest of his euro army wanting mob (let the scenes in Paris every weekend show you the eu future, public beaten to a pulp by the eu police)...we are not useless, we can run our own country, just need to get rid of this REMAIN goverment ruled by a REMAIN pm, who are voting on REMAIN subjects chosen by a REMAIN speaker.

Someone who had passion in brexit would have sorted this a long time ago and we would be fine.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Someone who had passion in brexit would have sorted this a long time ago and we would be fine.

But haven't those who had a passion for Brexit all jumped ship at some point?

 

[steveh35]

The issue is we leave the EU in 10 days with no deal, parliament has rejected no deal as an option and thinks it can just get an extension (or rather the cowards in Parliament expect Theresa May to get an extension), the EU is so fed up with the UK's antics they could just tell us to sod off next week. Some Brexiteers have jumped ship to May's deal as they see it as the only way to get any Brexit.

In my view we should just leave and negotiate later we shouldn't have gone through all this nonsense we have over the last three years or we should have got a deal then changed it later.

 

[thr0b]

And, er, prices HAVE shot up since the referendum.

Even in cases where prices appear largely static, look at the pack size of food items - loads of products have been reduced in size to keep the same price point.

The pound is worth f-all. The only time it rises is when something that looks like it’ll delay our exit from the EU happens.

You can’t undo forty years of integration in two years, and you’d be a liar to say you could.

You’d be insane to try and leave without a deal, and you’d been insane to leave at all.

 

[steveh35]

And, er, prices HAVE shot up since the referendum.

Even in cases where prices appear largely static, look at the pack size of food items - loads of products have been reduced in size to keep the same price point.

The pound is worth f-all. The only time it rises is when something that looks like it’ll delay our exit from the EU happens.

You can’t undo forty years of integration in two years, and you’d be a liar to say you could.

You’d be insane to try and leave without a deal, and you’d been insane to leave at all.

Packages have been reducing in size for years nothing to do with the referendum, this was mainly to do with keeping the items in the pound shops and the supermarkets just bought the smaller items as well, a loaf of hovis is still £1 in Tesco the only product that has risen is milk which is now £1.10-£1.15 in most supermarkets and this is because of the row with farmers and general inflation.

 

[steveh35]

And, er, prices HAVE shot up since the referendum.

Even in cases where prices appear largely static, look at the pack size of food items - loads of products have been reduced in size to keep the same price point.

The pound is worth f-all. The only time it rises is when something that looks like it’ll delay our exit from the EU happens.

You can’t undo forty years of integration in two years, and you’d be a liar to say you could.

You’d be insane to try and leave without a deal, and you’d been insane to leave at all.

Why do you want to stay with the mad EU and their club you can't leave? We are a country we should be able to leave this club without blackmail and threats of armageddon, why should 28 countries be told what to do by the EU and have courts rulings us?

We signed up to trade in a common market not to have this bunch with their EU courts and bizarre ideas telling us what to do.

 

[dunover]

Last time I checked all EU member states had national elections to their own parliaments, and also sent elected MEPs to the European parliament.

Kind of sounds like democracy to me.

A customs union basically keeps our trade arrangements and market access the same as if we were still in the EU.
We can be in it and not be under EU Court jurisdiction, not have to operate free movement, not have to allow access to our fishing stocks and not be in the CAP. It is what I believe we'll end up with, and will split both the Tory and LieBore parties if approved. As a leaver, it is the 'softest' Brexit I could take without vomiting. It does mean, as said, there are restrictions still on our trade arrangements with non-EU countries.

The 'Norway' or 'EU 2.0' will be a total disaster, one so bad we may as well stay in, as the one of the primary reasons for leaving (removal of uncontrolled migration) would not occur. I cannot see this passing, even LieBore have spoken out last night against it. That is more a SNP measure as Sturgeon thinks Scotland is underpopulated and wants to cram as many foreigners in there as possible.

Chopely has swallowed the 'we must be in it to change it' nonsense which was spouted by the remainers prior to the referendum. A European Parliament where we provide 1/10 of the MEP's is as useful as a chocolate bog roll and we have absolutely no power in it, even if every one of our MEPs voted together. Our own parliament has 100% decision-making power which is another primary reason people voted to get our sovereignty back, that previous traitorous governments have handed piece by piece to foreigners.

Ultimate proof that T. May has underplayed our hand is demonstrated by the fact that it's now becoming apparent the EU are dreading us going out on a 'no deal' basis and pretty much granting extension after extension, along with enjoying the discomfort the UK is experiencing, especially the French.

I wish now the EU would just get that horrid little weasel-faced **** to say to the UK 'Deal by April 12 or f*ck-off on WTO terms'. Then the board is wiped clean for the govts. of now and the future to decide upon our future relationship based on mandates from the voters. But they won't for the reasons above.

I can see serious civil disorder here IF we don't leave. Parliament being stormed and the MPs marched ceremonially by a pitchfork mob to the Tower. Refusal to pay taxes by the more peaceful protesters, starving the govt. of funds. No taxation without representation, innit?