Brexit - whats the difference.....

cncas2123

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Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?
 

ChopleyIOM

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Reality has finally collided with fantasy when it comes to Brexit.

Any 'Deal' is worse than what we already have, for myriad reasons and varying by option, and 'No Deal' is a catastrophe.

This was where it was always going to end up once Theresa May had drawn her red lines, it's just taken us a while to get here.
 

steveh35

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doncaster
Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?
Customs union does not incorporate freedom of movement i believe.

Also any of the votes tonight are useless unless they pass the withdrawal agreement as the EU says we have to have a withdrawal agreement.

The purpose of a customs union is to make trade easier.

Countries in a customs union agree not to impose charges - known as tariffs - or custom checks on each other's goods.

The rules also mean that any goods coming in from the rest of the world pay the same tariff - irrespective of where in the customs union those goods first enter.

This is known as a common tariff.

For example, a car from the US entering the EU customs union currently attracts a tariff of 10% of the car's value. It doesn't matter if the car arrives in France, Spain or anywhere else - the same one-off 10% charge is applied.

That car can then move between all the customs union countries without incurring extra costs or custom checks.
 

goatwack

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My wish is for a Banana Republic
 

ChopleyIOM

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My wish is for democracy.
Last time I checked all EU member states had national elections to their own parliaments, and also sent elected MEPs to the European parliament.

Kind of sounds like democracy to me.
 

steveh35

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Last time I checked all EU member states had national elections to their own parliaments, and also sent elected MEPs to the European parliament.

Kind of sounds like democracy to me.
Who elected Juncker and co? not the people who voted in the european elections that's for sure.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Who elected Juncker and co? not the people who voted in the european elections that's for sure.
But the mechanism by which the President of the European Commission is decided has been well known and widely accepted for decades, I doubt that's what people were getting all cross about when they voted in the referendum.

Plus of course, we've had a UK President of the European Commission in Roy Jenkins, not long after we joined, so it's not like some sort of snobby EU club we're excluded from.

There's no good way to slice this, leaving the EU for the UK is simply variations of choosing what limb we wish to amputate. All options are bad.

Every Deal or in particular No Deal hurts us and leaves us weaker, the only sane option is revoking Article 50, or putting it back to the people in another referendum now we know what 'Deal' and 'No Deal' actually look like. SPOILER ALERT - They're both fucking horrible.
 

goatwack

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I'd read about how it's still possible to revoke Article 50 a while back, though it's legally muddled at best and I think even that 'deadline' has slipped by. Though who knows what's bloody going on anymore :eek2:

Though just imagine Theresa May addressing the nation live: "Look serfs, I was just messin' with y'all. We're staying in the EU. Lap it up, bitches" before exiting stage left doing that robot dance of hers
 

mack341

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south east england
But the mechanism by which the President of the European Commission is decided has been well known and widely accepted for decades, I doubt that's what people were getting all cross about when they voted in the referendum.

Plus of course, we've had a UK President of the European Commission in Roy Jenkins, not long after we joined, so it's not like some sort of snobby EU club we're excluded from.

There's no good way to slice this, leaving the EU for the UK is simply variations of choosing what limb we wish to amputate. All options are bad.

Every Deal or in particular No Deal hurts us and leaves us weaker, the only sane option is revoking Article 50, or putting it back to the people in another referendum now we know what 'Deal' and 'No Deal' actually look like. SPOILER ALERT - They're both fucking horrible.
taken from the bbc website re IOM:

"The island is not part of the United Kingdom or European Union, but has the status of 'crown dependency', similar to Jersey and Guernsey, with an independent administration. Its inhabitants are British citizens."

So I wonder how the trade and free movement works in IOM's situation? What would happen if IOM became part of the EU???
 

ChopleyIOM

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taken from the bbc website re IOM:

"The island is not part of the United Kingdom or European Union, but has the status of 'crown dependency', similar to Jersey and Guernsey, with an independent administration. Its inhabitants are British citizens."

So I wonder how the trade and free movement works in IOM's situation? What would happen if IOM became part of the EU???
Specifically on a No Deal Brexit - our government has published an extensive public report on this, freely available to download and view. (Link below.)

TL : DR - Everything will get worse, except in the best case scenario where they might just about stay the same. Specifically to the IOM, the one benefit we might get is more tourists because it'll be too difficult and/or expensive to travel to Europe for UK residents.

Do note that our government has no 'skin in the game' as it were, so this is the most objective analysis you're likely to see as to what No Deal actually looks like for real people and businesses.

As for your question, it's kind of dealt with in the document, we have a lot of reciprocal agreements.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

mack341

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Specifically on a No Deal Brexit - our government has published an extensive public report on this, freely available to download and view. (Link below.)

TL : DR - Everything will get worse, except in the best case scenario where they might just about stay the same. Specifically to the IOM, the one benefit we might get is more tourists because it'll be too difficult and/or expensive to travel to Europe for UK residents.

Do note that our government has no 'skin in the game' as it were, so this is the most objective analysis you're likely to see as to what No Deal actually looks like for real people and businesses.

As for your question, it's kind of dealt with in the document, we have a lot of reciprocal agreements.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
Thanks Chopley, I see it is a bit complicated but I noted this:

So whilst the Isle of Man is covered by most EU rules relating to the free movement of goods, it is not covered by EU rules concerning free movement of people, services or investment. Out of the whole body of EU law, only a relatively small proportion of that law currently applies to the Island

So if you had a mini local referendum on the IOM joining the EU and adopting their rules/laws regarding people, services and investment, plus switching to the Euro, how would you vote?
[sorry just to add, and the brief reasons 'why' if no or if yes]
 
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mack341

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south east england
This speech below from the german parliament which rees-mogg retweeted today is worth viewing for brexiteers and remainers alike. I understand her party, AFD, is described by the mainstream media as right wing or extremist but that seems to be the way to shut down any views different to the liberal elite's, she certainly doesn't seem hostile to us Brits in any case.

 

Okman

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I fail to see how describing the AfD as right wing isn’t correct? Their policies are ultra conservative and populist, which by definition puts them on the right wing of the political spectrum. Mainstream media describing them as such isn’t simply the will of your so called “liberal elites” and just a reflection of their policies.

I agree that media organisations will align their stance according to whomever controls them, but to argue that it is just dog whistling to describe AfD as right/extreme right is incorrect.

Tldr; does what it says on the tin.
 

sledge13

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Jul 10, 2014
Location
York
We've had all this once before from Cameron and Osbourne, straight after any Brexit vote, prices would shoot up, mass unemployment instantly and the devil will rise again, um now...unemployment at a 50 year low...

No deal? why would anyone want a deal with unelected drunk mugs like "Lord Junker" and the rest of his euro army wanting mob (let the scenes in Paris every weekend show you the eu future, public beaten to a pulp by the eu police)...we are not useless, we can run our own country, just need to get rid of this REMAIN goverment ruled by a REMAIN pm, who are voting on REMAIN subjects chosen by a REMAIN speaker.

Someone who had passion in brexit would have sorted this a long time ago and we would be fine.
 

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