Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

This is an interesting articel on the bbc website, dated 20 dec, regarding the EU and the IOM. It's a long article but the first few paragraphs will concern some:

Britain's Crown Dependencies are home to 76,000 companies - slightly fewer than one for every third person living there.

It is many of these companies that will now have to prove their presence in Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man is not merely a tax-dodging exercise.

New measures mean there is further onus on these firms to justify why they should benefit from the low or non-existent tax rates paid on their profits in the islands.

The laws were introduced after the European Union

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

along with 62 other places.

With it comes the potential for economic sanctions and significant damage to the reputations of the islands' financial services sectors.

The EU is concerned some of the tens of thousands of offshore companies are routing company profits to the islands, where they pay little or no tax, and potentially deprive member states of income to spend on essential public services like schools and hospitals.

Wouldn't surprise me if the EU come calling again in the future regarding this tax issue, iirc the paradise papers which a lot of this is about have something to do with george soros who is a big proponent of the EU and of open borders. This is big politics relating to globalism and very complicated IMO as why would the media owned by tax evading billionaires want to expose all the tax evasion??

 

[dunover]

I fail to see why my precise location precludes me from holding, or expressing, opinions on matters of massive significance to the UK. (A country my entire extended family lives in.)

Anyway, we'll be hit badly in the event of a No Deal Brexit, as we're so intertwined with the UK, which in turn is deeply intertwined with the EU.

Yes it's true we have some border controls not available to the UK, but in reality we've basically had a 'doors open' policy for quite some time, it's the only way we can get the workers we need in many sectors.

I'm warning you now - you may end up with me there if we don't leave soon. I'll put up with the weather and crap beer as long as I'm outside the EU. What rate of income tax do you pay there?

 

[mack341]

Family is from Essex. Not that it has anything to do with what we are speaking about.

I really tried to just have a civil discourse with you, but you remain (no pun intended) pig headed about it. I conceded points in the interest of debate, you concede nothing.

I’m on a gambling forum lol

you state in your hardly 'civil discourse' with me that I have displayed ignorance and am being pig headed because I won't concede anything

I don't know anything much about AFD, I read their wikipedia entry last night as I posted that video, that and the video is the entirety of my knowledge, I made a point that their views would probably be mainstream traditional conservative policy 30 years ago, this annoys you in some way and you want me to agree to descibe and label them as a far right party as that phrase is currently understood otherwise I'm being dishonest in a forum debate?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And shit weather.

Oh I dunno, I'll take this during a lunchtime stroll in early April

 

[dunover]

Oh I dunno, I'll take this during a lunchtime stroll in early April

View attachment 106914

That proves it!! It's so rare the sun appears that he feels compelled to photograph the event, sort of like when an eclipse occurs here.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What rate of income tax do you pay there?

10% lower rate, 20% higher rate, £14K personal allowance.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[mack341]

Oh I dunno, I'll take this during a lunchtime stroll in early April

View attachment 106914

I love the look of the IOM, the rugged scenery and weather, but I think if you built new houses all over it and added 50,000 more people it wouldn't be good

How does being in the EU make any of that worse? Foodbanks for example have 'boomed' in recent years solely due to UC, and would be much worse if it wasn't for EU laws, as the government have lost many legal challenges in regards to benefits over the past few years.

Well if the EU have been trying to make it better, they haven't been very successful, which EU laws have addressed the rise of food banks? [doing to you something you've done to me ]

 

[dunover]

10% lower rate, 20% higher rate, £14K personal allowance.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Am I being dense here as I cannot see what threshold the 20% rate comes in? I can see the 14k personal allowance, but when does the 10% become higher rate?

NI is similar to the UK, do you have hospitals or buses and roads in the IOM too?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well if the EU have been trying to make it better, they haven't been very successful, which EU laws have addressed the rise of food banks? [doing to you something you've done to me ]

It's a domestic issue and entirely the result of the policies that have been pursued (without EU interference....) by a decade of Tory governments.

What would you want the EU to do about it? Try to mandate that everyone is entitled to a £100 food voucher every week or something? At which point of course they'd be accused of meddling in domestic UK politics!

 

[colinsunderland]

I love the look of the IOM, the rugged scenery and weather, but I think if you built new houses all over it and added 50,000 more people it wouldn't be good


Well if the EU have been trying to make it better, they haven't been very successful, which EU laws have addressed the rise of food banks? [doing to you something you've done to me ]

I don't understand? I don't think I've seen anywhere the EU saying they were addressing that problem, however, laws have resulted in the government being defeated, quite regularly, in court in cases where they have tried to limit or reduce benefit payments, quite often using discrimination laws, the equality act 2010 to be precise, which is, of course, implementing EU directives. One of those 'laws' you seemingly wish weren't there .
A recent one would be

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

where the government unlawfully attempted to reduce disabled claimants' benefits by moving them to Universal Credit.

The implementing arrangements do at present give rise to unlawful discrimination contrary to Article 14 ECHR read with Article 1 of the First Protocol to the ECHR.

Do you think the SoS would have lost that case if it wasn't for the EU laws? Still waiting for your list of bad laws we have had to implement

Edit: You do realise, foodbanks have got so much busier because of Universal Credit? That was solely the UK's doing, no input from the EU. Yet you want that type of policy making countrywide without the EU laws to fall back on?

 

[mack341]

It's a domestic issue and entirely the result of the policies that have been pursued (without EU interference....) by a decade of Tory governments.

What would you want the EU to do about it? Try to mandate that everyone is entitled to a £100 food voucher every week or something? At which point of course they'd be accused of meddling in domestic UK politics!

Apparently the food banks first appeared in 2004, 7 years into tony blair's term as PM, I agree the tories have made it worse.. but the nub of the point I was trying to make, that supporters of remain, many from the labour side of politics, really believe that the EU protects poor people here, the evidence of zero hour contracts, food banks, benefit cuts, people topping themselves because they're benefit is stopped etc.. contradicts this, the EU have meddled with domestic politics in greece, immigration is a domestic issue as well and hungary is being punished for not toeing the EU line regarding that. what's the priority here folks?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Am I being dense here as I cannot see what threshold the 20% rate comes in? I can see the 14k personal allowance, but when does the 10% become higher rate?

NI is similar to the UK, do you have hospitals or buses and roads in the IOM too?

So up to £14K is tax free, then £6500 from £14K to £20.5K is at 10%, and then everything beyond £20.5K is at 20%, up to a limit of £175,000 maximum income tax liability for any single person.

We have one main hospital, and one ancillary hospital. The bus service here is very comprehensive and dependable, but that's because it's run by the government and heavily subsidised. (All the bus drivers are government employees.)

A lot of stuff here is state run, for example Manx Utilities (Electricity, water, sewerage) are owned and run by the government, and last year the government bought the Isle of Man Steam Packet company to nationalise it as they weren't happy with how it was being run by a bunch of venture capitalists.

The debate does come round every few years on privatisation, but generally speaking it ends up at 'look what happened in the UK' and things remain in state hands, or in the case of the Steam Packet, the government paid £124M cash for it and nationalised it.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"We believe it is in the best interests of our people and our economy to take a controlling stake in the national ferry operation rather than commit the Island to another long-term agreement with an external provider.

"The government has not been in a position to explain its intentions to the public before now because of the commercial confidentiality of the negotiations.

"However we believe we are paying a fair price to secure a profitable, cash generative national asset and gain strategic control of our sea services."

 

[cncas2123]

Next question - should an MP that represents a constituency that voted to leave in the referendum be duty bound to vote against any form of remaining? I always understood the MP's role to was to speak for his constituents, but it seems to be that isnt the case with Brexit because as far as I am aware 410 constituencies voted to leave but at no stage has it appeared that 410 MP's voted for anything that resembled leaving the EU...

 

[mack341]

I don't understand? I don't think I've seen anywhere the EU saying they were addressing that problem, however, laws have resulted in the government being defeated, quite regularly, in court in cases where they have tried to limit or reduce benefit payments, quite often using discrimination laws, the equality act 2010 to be precise, which is, of course, implementing EU directives. One of those 'laws' you seemingly wish weren't there .
A recent one would be

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

where the government unlawfully attempted to reduce disabled claimants' benefits by moving them to Universal Credit.

The implementing arrangements do at present give rise to unlawful discrimination contrary to Article 14 ECHR read with Article 1 of the First Protocol to the ECHR.

Do you think the SoS would have lost that case if it wasn't for the EU laws? Still waiting for your list of bad laws we have had to implement

Edit: You do realise, foodbanks have got so much busier because of Universal Credit? That was solely the UK's doing, no input from the EU. Yet you want that type of policy making countrywide without the EU laws to fall back on?

yes but if we're pumping 15 bilion each year into the EU's coffers it can't exactly be helping us avoid benefit cuts etc... much of which seemed to be justified by osborne on the basis of our deficit etc..

If we had no disability protection laws from not being in the EU as you imply could have been the case, the political parties in these country could propose it and win a vote. The british people are decent and kind, they don't want to see disabled people suffer, so the laws would come in..that's the benefit of being a fully fledged democracy. I think you remainers have to see the bigger picture, the EU is ever evolving, grabbing more power, making more laws. Where we are now isn't the finished article re the EU federal model, they'll be a european army, followed by european police force etc..

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Next question - should an MP that represents a constituency that voted to leave in the referendum be duty bound to vote against any form of remaining? I always understood the MP's role to was to speak for his constituents, but it seems to be that isnt the case with Brexit because as far as I am aware 410 constituencies voted to leave but at no stage has it appeared that 410 MP's voted for anything that resembled leaving the EU...

They must represent, what is in their best judgement, the interests of their constituents and also the national interest.

Therefore if an MP honestly believes, for example, that a No Deal Brexit would harm the interests of his constituents and/or the nation as a whole, he should do whatever he can to prevent it from happening.

 

[colinsunderland]

yes but if we're pumping 15 bilion each year into the EU's coffers it can't exactly be helping us avoid benefit cuts etc... much of which seemed to be justified by osborne on the basis of our deficit etc..

If we had no disability protection laws from not being in the EU as you imply could have been the case, the political parties in these country could propose it and win a vote. The british people are decent and kind, they don't want to see disabled people suffer, so the laws would come in..that's the benefit of being a fully fledged democracy. I think you remainers have to see the bigger picture, the EU is ever evolving, grabbing more power, making more laws. Where we are now isn't the finished article re the EU federal model, they'll be a european army, followed by european police force etc..

Right but all you are doing is saying, if we weren't in the EU this might happen, that might not happen, without any foundation or facts to back up what you're saying. The fact is, the government have, on multiple occasions, attempted to do things (not just in the benefit system) that have been classed as unlawful in court. As they are trying to do things, why do you think they would introduce laws to prevent them doing what they want to?
You again speak as if the EU laws are bad, yet again fail to state a single one, out of many thousands, that are actually bad. I'm sure there are bad ones out there, but equally there any many more good ones.
So back to my original point, the most common reasons I keep reading for leaving are 'not having to adopt EU laws' and 'immigration'. Yet no one can ever give examples of a bad law that they personally disagree with (and certainly not without using google, therefore making an argument not having a clue what they are talking about) and as non EU immigration is worse than EU immigration, then that isn't going to be fixed either.
The third one is money. Yes we pay in more than we get, however that doesn't take into account the billions made/saved by companies having no trade restrictions and no import/export duty. It's probably impossible to calculate if we are better or worse off financially in the EU, but one thing is certain, if we leave the NHS won't be getting an extra 350 million a week

 

[mack341]

They must represent, what is in their best judgement, the interests of their constituents and also the national interest.

Therefore if an MP honestly believes, for example, that a No Deal Brexit would harm the interests of his constituents and/or the nation as a whole, he should do whatever he can to prevent it from happening.

what if ignoring the will of the people from the referendum result damages the democracy and trust people have in parliament, doesn't this qualify as harm to the nation?

 

[goatwack]

what if ignoring the will of the people from the referendum result damages the democracy and trust people have in parliament, doesn't this qualify as harm to the nation?

Erm you're forgetting what Democracy means now Mack. It's only Democracy when you get the result you want! Failing that, keep re-voting until you democratically get your way

 

[mack341]

Right but all you are doing is saying, if we weren't in the EU this might happen, that might not happen, without any foundation or facts to back up what you're saying. The fact is, the government have, on multiple occasions, attempted to do things (not just in the benefit system) that have been classed as unlawful in court. As they are trying to do things, why do you think they would introduce laws to prevent them doing what they want to?
You again speak as if the EU laws are bad, yet again fail to state a single one, out of many thousands, that are actually bad. I'm sure there are bad ones out there, but equally there any many more good ones.
So back to my original point, the most common reasons I keep reading for leaving are 'not having to adopt EU laws' and 'immigration'. Yet no one can ever give examples of a bad law that they personally disagree with (and certainly not without using google, therefore making an argument not having a clue what they are talking about) and as non EU immigration is worse than EU immigration, then that isn't going to be fixed either.
The third one is money. Yes we pay in more than we get, however that doesn't take into account the billions made/saved by companies having no trade restrictions and no import/export duty. It's probably impossible to calculate if we are better or worse off financially in the EU, but one thing is certain, if we leave the NHS won't be getting an extra 350 million a week

you're ignoring my point about the future which is central to the democratic issue people have, you are concentrating power into the hands of a very few, it's not complicated. we can have european co operation, shared values, fairness etc.. we don't need a dictatorship and superstate structure to achieve this

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Erm you're forgetting what Democracy means now Mack. It's only Democracy when you get the result you want! Failing that, keep re-voting until you democratically get your way

Well that is kind of how democracy works, it's why we have general elections every few years, rather than just having one general election where the Conservatives win and then it's the will of the people to have Conservative governments forever and anti-democratic to suggest we need another election....

A huge amount has changed in the last three years. We were told Brexit was going to be fresh juicy apples for everyone, and what we've ended up with is a few mouldy old pears, it seems reasonable to me to go back to the people and say, 'Do you want these mouldy old pears, or would you rather keep the well stocked fruit bowl we've already got?'

 

[colinsunderland]

you're ignoring my point about the future which is central to the democratic issue people have, you are concentrating power into the hands of a very few, it's not complicated. we can have european co operation, shared values, fairness etc.. we don't need a dictatorship and superstate structure to achieve this

And you are ignoring every question that you've been asked that doesn't fit well with leaving. If only it was as black and white as you make out, it would be easy

 

[goatwack]

Well that is kind of how democracy works, it's why we have general elections every few years, rather than just having one general election where the Conservatives win and then it's the will of the people to have Conservative governments forever and anti-democratic to suggest we need another election....

A huge amount has changed in the last three years. We were told Brexit was going to be fresh juicy apples for everyone, and what we've ended up with is a few mouldy old pears, it seems reasonable to me to go back to the people and say, 'Do you want these mouldy old pears, or would you rather keep the well stocked fruit bowl we've already got?'

No need to call Remainers mouldy old pears

 

[mack341]

This thread is starting to make the trump/korea thread look like a walk in the park blimey if the yanks thought Trump was a divisive issue, it's got nothing on brexit but this map below gives you breakdown to show regardless of numbers [where london's large metropolitan population skews the figures] the majority of the country want out

 

[goatwack]

All we need is some religion and socio-gender issues in this thread and the circle will be complete

 

[colinsunderland]

the majority of the country want out

Suppose that depends on if you live in Scotland or England
Would like to see the same map today though.

 

[pinnit2014]

Looks like the EU have nicked N Ireland from that map.

Sneaky bastards.

 

[mack341]

And you are ignoring every question that you've been asked that doesn't fit well with leaving. If only it was as black and white as you make out, it would be easy

I'm focusing on the underlying principles, when you say I'm 'ignoring every question' you're making me sound as shifty as john bercow

Some of your questions require me to go off and do research and then argue about individual laws, I'm not educated enough to critique legal text etc..

you've only got to see how the commissioners and barnier etc.. are behaving, being totally inflexible etc.. to realise you cannot trust these unelected bureaucrats, they are not reasonable, fair minded people. Why would you want them to have so much power over the uk and we have to pay them for the privilege too, it's a shocking state of affairs we've slipped into and can't now seem to extricate ourselves from.

 

[mack341]

Looks like the EU have nicked N Ireland from that map.

Sneaky bastards.

It's from the university of oxford's site but a bit of a glaring error not to have NI shown

 

[mack341]

Suppose that depends on if you live in Scotland or England
Would like to see the same map today though.

I would hazard a guess that the free movement of people has had very little effect on scotland's housing and health service, or kept wages down as it does in england.

 

[colinsunderland]

Some of your questions require me to go off and do research and then argue about individual laws, I'm not educated enough to critique legal text etc..

And that is exactly my point. None of us on here (I suspect) is educated enough to know all the ins and outs of the benefits of staying in or leaving the EU. I would guess almost the whole country is the same. I know stuff about some of it, I'm sure you know stuff about other parts, and others will know more than both of us put together on other bits. Yet we seem happy to put the countries future in the hands of millions of people who don't actually have a clue what they are voting for.

As an example, here is a 49 page document on the possible effects of leaving the EU on the pharmaceutical sector

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ask the next 100 people you pass in the street what brexit will mean for that particular sector, I'll be surprised if one even has basic knowledge on it. So how can the other 99 vote to leave without actually knowing what it will mean to them? Yet it could be the difference between them getting or not getting life saving drugs if they took ill.

This is why we have MP's. This is why we pay people a lot of money for reports and to explain to parliament exactly what is what, and trust them to do the best for the country.

I can argue EU laws are a good thing and eventually if you concede I'm right, you could then argue something else is a bad thing, and I concede you are right, but then we have to look at which provides the greatest benefit to the country as a whole to decide which route is the best, then argue about the thousands of other things affected by the EU and do the same with all of them. Only then is anyone informed enough to really say 'stay is best' or 'leave is best'.

Putting the future in the hands of people like those who's sole argument is 'it will get rid of all the p*kis' is never going to be a good idea

 

[colinsunderland]

I would hazard a guess that the free movement of people has had very little effect on scotland's housing and health service, or kept wages down as it does in england.

Why would you think that? The fact is people's attitudes in England and Scotland are very similar on immigration. You would think if the effects were much lower in Scotland, people would be less bothered by it.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

By the health service do you mean the extra people using the service or positive effect of using a large proportion on non UK born nurses and Doctors keeping it running rather than collapsing by not having enough staff to cope?

 

[mack341]

And that is exactly my point. None of us on here (I suspect) is educated enough to know all the ins and outs of the benefits of staying in or leaving the EU. I would guess almost the whole country is the same. I know stuff about some of it, I'm sure you know stuff about other parts, and others will know more than both of us put together on other bits. Yet we seem happy to put the countries future in the hands of millions of people who don't actually have a clue what they are voting for.

As an example, here is a 49 page document on the possible effects of leaving the EU on the pharmaceutical sector

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ask the next 100 people you pass in the street what brexit will mean for that particular sector, I'll be surprised if one even has basic knowledge on it. So how can the other 99 vote to leave without actually knowing what it will mean to them? Yet it could be the difference between them getting or not getting life saving drugs if they took ill.

This is why we have MP's. This is why we pay people a lot of money for reports and to explain to parliament exactly what is what, and trust them to do the best for the country.

I can argue EU laws are a good thing and eventually if you concede I'm right, you could then argue something else is a bad thing, and I concede you are right, but then we have to look at which provides the greatest benefit to the country as a whole to decide which route is the best, then argue about the thousands of other things affected by the EU and do the same with all of them. Only then is anyone informed enough to really say 'stay is best' or 'leave is best'.

Putting the future in the hands of people like those who's sole argument is 'it will get rid of all the p*kis' is never going to be a good idea

on the last point as that is fresh in my thoughts, yes, but as much as some idiots spouting about 'P*ki's' voted for brexit, there are also similar numbers of deluded people in london who just vote remain because they also see the whole thing as a racial issue too but from the other side of the argument. Both are wrong IMO, it is a pure issue regarding democracy and whether you value it, the large immigration from eastern europe into a small country stems from the loss of the democratic political control on that issue.

Regarding the effect on the pharmaceutical trade, if there is an negative effect and ill people cannot get their medicines, the blame falls squarely on the EU bureaucrats and their inflexible 'punishment' approach to doing a deal. There could be ill people in europe unable to get medicines we produce, so they are hurting EU citizens as well, but they don't care as long as they can try and make life difficult for us, that's all they're concerned about.

In addition regarding good 'beneficial' laws from europe, they will be nothing stopping us after brexit from saying 'you know that law they've recently introduced [re recycling or the banking sector etc..], that looks like a very good idea/policy, I think we'll follow suit and bring that in here'

But the reverse won't be true, bad laws can be imposed on us if we were to remain, it's much better to be a master of our own destiny, that's not to say I have a lot of time for our current crop of political leaders but they're the ones who are happy to cede sovereign powers to unelected bureaucrats, I'd rather our country was run by eggheads and professors not this shifty lot in the HOP.

 

[mack341]

Why would you think that? The fact is people's attitudes in England and Scotland are very similar on immigration. You would think if the effects were much lower in Scotland, people would be less bothered by it.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

By the health service do you mean the extra people using the service or positive effect of using a large proportion on non UK born nurses and Doctors keeping it running rather than collapsing by not having enough staff to cope?

Until we can train enough here, the non uk born doctors and nurses are more than welcome as long as they're up to the required standard, we don't seem to have a problem recruiting and training police officers and don't have to boost numbers with overseas recruits so there must be a institutional problem in the health sector, I think I read nurses are required to take out loans to pay for all the study now involved, another brilliant idea by the pen pushers of whitehall no doubt to overwhelm the core job of nursing with tons of paperwork.

no I was meaning the extra burden on the health service, schools and housing

 

[bowki]

Why do you keep repeating over and over again that the EU parliament are unelected bureaucrats? Last time I checked they were elected just as every national parliament. And there's a vote coming up in May so I am quite sure we (that includes the UK) voted the current bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

[mack341]

Why do you keep repeating over and over again that the EU parliament are unelected bureaucrats? Last time I checked they were elected just as every national parliament. And there's a vote coming up in May so I am quite sure we (that includes the UK) voted the current bureaucrats in Brussels.

I'm sorry what constituency does michel barnier represent? How many voted for him, and donald tusk, jean claude juncker etc..

so the leaders of the various countries vote them in, who draws up the candidate list? and then when they're elected a commissioner they have more power than the individuals who selected them, makes sense? ~ No.

edit: it is a common criticism, it's not something unfounded I've invented all by myself, everyone knows the power structure of the EU does not work in the same way, say, as the democratically elected and accountable members of parliament in the uk.

 

[colinsunderland]

Until we can train enough here, the non uk born doctors and nurses are more than welcome as long as they're up to the required standard, we don't seem to have a problem recruiting and training police officers and don't have to boost numbers with overseas recruits so there must be a institutional problem in the health sector, I think I read nurses are required to take out loans to pay for all the study now involved, another brilliant idea by the pen pushers of whitehall no doubt to overwhelm the core job of nursing with tons of paperwork.

no I was meaning the extra burden on the health service, schools and housing

Ah right, so immigration is ok, as long as its doing what we say, when we say, and how we say? Again though, the point about nurses you make, something else done by us, yet you think we will make all great decisions when we leave?
Regarding the police, there are 15% less now than 10 years ago so no wonder its easy to fill the jobs, less jobs = easier to fill. I wonder if that was the EU that cut the police on the streets or the government?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

you've only got to see how the commissioners and barnier etc.. are behaving, being totally inflexible etc.. to realise you cannot trust these unelected bureaucrats, they are not reasonable, fair minded people.

See I keep hearing this but it's simply not true.

Before Cameron even called the referendum the EU folks all made it completely clear that, for example, the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible and we wouldn't be allowed to cherry pick. They told us what options would be available to us outside the EU and in essence that they would be the same as any other non-member, for example the Norway model we hear so much about. i.e. They told us upfront we wouldn't get any special treatment.

Then after the referendum Theresa May drew all her red lines, then invoked Article 50 without having the first fucking notion of an actual plan, and the EU side pretty much said 'With all those red lines on your side the only thing we can really offer you is this', then the Tory party squabbled for about 18 months before coming up with their ridiculous Chequers plan, which contained stuff the EU had said two years earlier wouldn't be acceptable.

Also remember that we actually asked for the backstop applying to the whole of the UK as a CONCESSION which the EU granted, because Theresa May refused to have a 'border in the Irish Sea' and she's hostage to the headbangers of the DUP who wouldn't accept anything different in NI to the rest of the UK.

The whole thing is a national embarrassment, we've diminished our status and power in the EU and the wider world, shown ourselves to be an unreliable partner to any country ever thinking of dealing with us in the future, and made ourselves an international laughing stock and basket case.

And we've done it all by choice.

And the worst of it is, the very first thing we'll need to do once Brexit is completed is go straight back to the EU and start asking for trade deals, because 'WTO terms' are basically just a safety net, no country in the world trades exclusively with the rest of the world on WTO terms.

 

[colinsunderland]

on the last point as that is fresh in my thoughts, yes, but as much as some idiots spouting about 'P*ki's' voted for brexit, there are also similar numbers of deluded people in london who just vote remain because they also see the whole thing as a racial issue too but from the other side of the argument. Both are wrong IMO, it is a pure issue regarding democracy and whether you value it, the large immigration from eastern europe into a small country stems from the loss of the democratic political control on that issue.

Yes of course they are, and thats my point, almost everyone who voted, whichever way, didn't actually understand fully what they are voting for.
What does the larger non EU immigration stem from?

Regarding the effect on the pharmaceutical trade, if there is an negative effect and ill people cannot get their medicines, the blame falls squarely on the EU bureaucrats and their inflexible 'punishment' approach to doing a deal. There could be ill people in europe unable to get medicines we produce, so they are hurting EU citizens as well, but they don't care as long as they can try and make life difficult for us, that's all they're concerned about.

I just picked that as an example of people voting without understanding. I would say the blame is simply down to people voting leave without knowing what deal would be done. If we leave with no deal, which a lot seem to favour, then did those really think there wouldn't be a breakdown in supplies of things we currently get from other countries? Be it cancer drugs or ball bearings.

In addition regarding good 'beneficial' laws from europe, they will be nothing stopping us after brexit from saying 'you know that law they've recently introduced [re recycling or the banking sector etc..], that looks like a very good idea/policy, I think we'll follow suit and bring that in here'

Nothing stopping us at all, well apart from a government who keeps getting defeated in court by those pesky EU laws. Again, if the laws are there to protect people, and MP's don't like it, do you really think it will get through?

But the reverse won't be true, bad laws can be imposed on us if we were to remain, it's much better to be a master of our own destiny, that's not to say I have a lot of time for our current crop of political leaders but they're the ones who are happy to cede sovereign powers to unelected bureaucrats, I'd rather our country was run by eggheads and professors not this shifty lot in the HOP.

Bad laws will be imposed on us, leave or stay. Difference being, if we leave, no one is there to stop them going too far.

 

[mack341]

Ah right, so immigration is ok, as long as its doing what we say, when we say, and how we say? Again though, the point about nurses you make, something else done by us, yet you think we will make all great decisions when we leave?
Regarding the police, there are 15% less now than 10 years ago so no wonder its easy to fill the jobs, less jobs = easier to fill. I wonder if that was the EU that cut the police on the streets or the government?

no they're different issues, but who knows maybe the extra paperwork for nurses and docs did come from the EU? It's getting to the point where it's impossible to find a straight source of info on these things, just looking up 'unelected bureaucrats' on google brought up dozens of results that read like biased, partisan articles from the remainer point of view

We have got bad governance in this country, there's no doubt about that, but you have to also see that the whitehall mandarins and most of the house of lords/commons which form that political class want us to remain under the EU control, to overturn the referendum result or give us such a soft brexit its practically pointless.

 

[mack341]

Before Cameron even called the referendum the EU folks all made it completely clear that, for example, the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible and we wouldn't be allowed to cherry pick.

So at that time when we were still very much part of the EU we had no say or influence on the process for states wishing to exit the union, you're pretty much summing up the whole problem here...

I did hear in one of the commitees in HOP that the EU offered us a canada style free trade deal but theresa may blocked it and then our civil service came up with this NI backstop idea, the resulting impasse is thus theresa may's fault not the EU. Now though the EU won't let go of the backstop idea and be reasonable to set a time limit, [people have to remember the uk civil service at the high levels has been acting to hinder and stop brexit at every opportunity.]

It is a total mess, and you end up [meaning me] feeling ground down by the tv and media onslaught against brexit, what's happening in parliament etc..

I think i'm about done for a while now on this thread. The remain side, just like the anti trump side in the US [not saying he's a saint btw], have all the soundbites and biased media articles to help them in discussions like this, one last thing I will post is, remember this man below is the biggest proponent of remaining in the EU, you're lining up alongside him and his 'values' whether you like that or not:

 

[Okman]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Plato please just chill out with the whole The Republic thing and that whole inventing democracy garbage and whatever and please buddy just let Macedonia be Macedonia smh

 

[goatwack]

My theory still stands -

Jon Snow's gonna have it out with the Night King, win lose or draw, and end up becoming the Night King

Keep your eyes peeled for that one

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So at that time when we were still very much part of the EU we had no say or influence on the process for states wishing to exit the union, you're pretty much summing up the whole problem here...

I did hear in one of the commitees in HOP that the EU offered us a canada style free trade deal but theresa may blocked it and then our civil service came up with this NI backstop idea, the resulting impasse is thus theresa may's fault not the EU. Now though the EU won't let go of the backstop idea and be reasonable to set a time limit, [people have to remember the uk civil service at the high levels has been acting to hinder and stop brexit at every opportunity.]

It is a total mess, and you end up [meaning me] feeling ground down by the tv and media onslaught against brexit, what's happening in parliament etc..

I think i'm about done for a while now on this thread. The remain side, just like the anti trump side in the US [not saying he's a saint btw], have all the soundbites and biased media articles to help them in discussions like this, one last thing I will post is, remember this man below is the biggest proponent of remaining in the EU, you're lining up alongside him and his 'values' whether you like that or not:

I appreciate you've indicated you want to take a break on this thread mack which I completely respect, but I will just address the line in bold above if I may.

And that is to say, of course we had no influence in the process for leaving! If you're a member of a club and you decide you don't want to be in the club anymore or pay your membership fees, you don't get to rewrite the rules on the way out!

The EU made it 100% abundantly clear before the referendum was even called that there'd be no special treatment for the UK once it left, but that we could choose from the available options of their other relationships with other countries around the world that had been established over the years.

Charlatans and spivs like David Davis and Boris Johnson telling us we'd get the 'easiest trade deal in history' and that 'they need us more than we need them' need to take a lot of the responsibility here, and well, how's that worked out?

At the end of the day the EU is a somewhat technocratic institution that works on rules and regulations, and whilst we certainly have the right to decide we don't want to be a member of that institution any longer, on what planet do we get to rewrite, bend, and create those rules and regulations on the way out, or once we're actually out?

For what it's worth, I knew bugger all about our relationship with the EU when Cameron called the referendum (as I suspect was the case for most people), yes I am a Remainer but that was more a gut reaction than anything based on knowledge or wisdom, however over the last three years I've done my best to educate myself on the matter, and not just via 'biased' media, but through cold, hard, facts.

Anyway, I appreciate you've indicated you want to take a break so I'll leave it there, and I hope we can continue to engage in our usual friendly chats elsewhere on the forums

 

[mack341]

I appreciate you've indicated you want to take a break on this thread mack which I completely respect, but I will just address the line in bold above if I may.

And that is to say, of course we had no influence in the process for leaving! If you're a member of a club and you decide you don't want to be in the club anymore or pay your membership fees, you don't get to rewrite the rules on the way out!

The EU made it 100% abundantly clear before the referendum was even called that there'd be no special treatment for the UK once it left, but that we could choose from the available options of their other relationships with other countries around the world that had been established over the years.

Charlatans and spivs like David Davis and Boris Johnson telling us we'd get the 'easiest trade deal in history' and that 'they need us more than we need them' need to take a lot of the responsibility here, and well, how's that worked out?

At the end of the day the EU is a somewhat technocratic institution that works on rules and regulations, and whilst we certainly have the right to decide we don't want to be a member of that institution any longer, on what planet do we get to rewrite, bend, and create those rules and regulations on the way out, or once we're actually out?

For what it's worth, I knew bugger all about our relationship with the EU when Cameron called the referendum (as I suspect was the case for most people), yes I am a Remainer but that was more a gut reaction than anything based on knowledge or wisdom, however over the last three years I've done my best to educate myself on the matter, and not just via 'biased' media, but through cold, hard, facts.

Anyway, I appreciate you've indicated you want to take a break so I'll leave it there, and I hope we can continue to engage in our usual friendly chats elsewhere on the forums

That was a kind intro chops and then you put on those DM's of yours... No I can see where you're coming from, a lot of this is gut instinct led. I suppose mine starts from the fact I don't trust [by and large] our elite and establishment, people like blair and alistair campbell, so if they are strongly in favour of something, it stops me in my tracks.

I can't knock you and colin's passion but erm it has been a bit of a trying day, I feel like an oap tagged teamed by mike tyson and marvin haggler I think I am at the point now of a psychologically broken hostage, unable to cope with anymore of the brexit crisis engulfing the nation, we had a lovely 3 tier cake to celebrate after the referendum and theresa's gone and curled one out on top of the icing

Yeah no probs, normal service will resume, no political discussion will turn me against degsy!

 

[colinsunderland]

tagged teamed

Careful, people have been banned for saying that!

 

[irish-ranger]

Looks like the EU have nicked N Ireland from that map.

Sneaky bastards.

sure ne

See I keep hearing this but it's simply not true.

Before Cameron even called the referendum the EU folks all made it completely clear that, for example, the four freedoms of the EU are indivisible and we wouldn't be allowed to cherry pick. They told us what options would be available to us outside the EU and in essence that they would be the same as any other non-member, for example the Norway model we hear so much about. i.e. They told us upfront we wouldn't get any special treatment.

Then after the referendum Theresa May drew all her red lines, then invoked Article 50 without having the first fucking notion of an actual plan, and the EU side pretty much said 'With all those red lines on your side the only thing we can really offer you is this', then the Tory party squabbled for about 18 months before coming up with their ridiculous Chequers plan, which contained stuff the EU had said two years earlier wouldn't be acceptable.

Also remember that we actually asked for the backstop applying to the whole of the UK as a CONCESSION which the EU granted, because Theresa May refused to have a 'border in the Irish Sea' and she's hostage to the headbangers of the DUP who wouldn't accept anything different in NI to the rest of the UK.

The whole thing is a national embarrassment, we've diminished our status and power in the EU and the wider world, shown ourselves to be an unreliable partner to any country ever thinking of dealing with us in the future, and made ourselves an international laughing stock and basket case.

And we've done it all by choice.

And the worst of it is, the very first thing we'll need to do once Brexit is completed is go straight back to the EU and start asking for trade deals, because 'WTO terms' are basically just a safety net, no country in the world trades exclusively with the rest of the world on WTO terms.

What do you think those DUP head bangers should do?let May put a border down the Irish Sea?which in turn would be the end of NI.

They are the largest party in the province for a reason they got 36% of the vote in the 2017 election securing 10 seats in parliament with thier main mandate to secure the union.

So I suspect allowing May to do what she wanted might have went against their principles ,thru all this bollocks they are the only party not thinking of their political future and doing what their voters asked them to do.

Head bangers indeed

 

[steveh35]

For God sake now she wants an extension and wants to meet Corbyn, she is not right in the head. Looks like we are going for the customs union after all this. Disgrace.

 

[goatwack]

Wow it's getting desperate

I think Screaming Lord Sutch would have done a better job of this Brexit Bungle

 

[steveh35]

Wow it's getting desperate

I think Screaming Lord Sutch would have done a better job of this Brexit Bungle

According to Sky News we have a customs union leave on 22 May, we are outside of freedom of movement so in effect have left the EU, we could do trade deals with other countries in service industry. So it apparently is the best way for both sides to win, Brexiteers get their freedom from EU, Remainers get to stay in customs union.
Looks like this is what we will get now and we can negotiate in the next stage.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What do you think those DUP head bangers should do?let May put a border down the Irish Sea?which in turn would be the end of NI.

Head bangers indeed

I was referring to their hostility to LGBT rights, along with their assertion that homosexuality is a 'harmful deviance', their opposition to same-sex marriage, advocating for the death penalty, and opposition to the rights of women to seek an abortion.

Oh yes and some of them want creationism to be taught in schools.

So yeah, I'll stick with head bangers.