Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

No war?? Yugoslavia 1993, IRA 1970-1998, Urkraine vs Russia, Spain vs Catalonia. no natural disaster seriously SERIOUSLY you are saying the EU biblically stopped all natural disasters . we live in time of peace errrrm ISIS.

I think you'll find the EU databases and security expertise we'll lose access to in a No Deal scenario would be great news for ISIS and the likes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

this agenda by 24hrs a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year for 25 odd years across all media and you can see the power and influence it must have.

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

 

[mack341]

So, again, which laws do you think shouldn't have been passed?

could be thousands?? the sheer number gives you a basic idea of the lunancy involved, talk about saving the environment they must have had cut down a million trees to publish that lot?

 

[mack341]

we live in times of peace and prosperity

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

 

[colinsunderland]

could be thousands?? the sheer number gives you a basic idea of the lunancy involved, talk about saving the environment they must have had cut down a million trees to publish that lot?

Well 72 to be exact. All the rest would have gone through anyway, the public don't get a vote on laws
But out of the thousands, feel free to pick a couple?

 

[colinsunderland]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

How does being in the EU make any of that worse? Foodbanks for example have 'boomed' in recent years solely due to UC, and would be much worse if it wasn't for EU laws, as the government have lost many legal challenges in regards to benefits over the past few years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

Sorry I could have phrased that better, as I already posted above, Brexit is a distraction from the real issues in this country. The UK is a rich country, the problem is how the pie is divided up, Brexit will do nothing to address any of that, and indeed will make it worse as people find their rights and protections (many of which are guaranteed by the EU) start to get stripped away by disaster capitalists.

 

[steveh35]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

Food Banks were brought in by Tony Blair in 2004: In 2004, Trussell only ran two food banks,

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but by 2007–2008, there were 22 food banks in the Trussell Trust Foodbank Network and by early 2011, The Trussell Trust supported 100. As of May 2012, they had 201.

homelessness is an ongoing issue it isn't a new phenomenon it was a hige issue when I worked in civil service in 2000s they used to sleep on the fire escape and leave needles stuck in the door edges.

 

[mack341]

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

I've pretty much always despised the Sun, but they are part of the same group as the times which is staunchly remain, pro iraq war, pro globalism etc..

I think the Sun went this way to hold the readership, keep them buying the paper, so as to weald the strongest political influence come election time. Which Murdoch used to his advantage time and again, it is claimed his backing for tony blair's new labour helped blair gain a massive majority in the HOP

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Food Banks were brought in by Tony Blair in 2004: In 2004, Trussell only ran two food banks,

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but by 2007–2008, there were 22 food banks in the Trussell Trust Foodbank Network and by early 2011, The Trussell Trust supported 100. As of May 2012, they had 201.

homelessness is an ongoing issue it isn't a new phenomenon it was a hige issue when I worked in civil service in 2000s they used to sleep on the fire escape and leave needles stuck in the door edges.

I fail to see what the EU has to do with any of that.

Do you not think a decade of grinding Tory austerity might be responsible for the explosion in food bank use more than, perhaps, the EU passing a law against our will compensating passengers for delayed flights?

 

[dunover]

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

 

[steveh35]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

BUT BUT BUT Dunover the Isle Of Man is an insignificant little island with no manufacturing industry and with no power around the top table.... oh hang on

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

I fail to see why my precise location precludes me from holding, or expressing, opinions on matters of massive significance to the UK. (A country my entire extended family lives in.)

Anyway, we'll be hit badly in the event of a No Deal Brexit, as we're so intertwined with the UK, which in turn is deeply intertwined with the EU.

Yes it's true we have some border controls not available to the UK, but in reality we've basically had a 'doors open' policy for quite some time, it's the only way we can get the workers we need in many sectors.

 

[dunover]

BUT BUT BUT Dunover the Isle Of Man is an insignificant little island with no manufacturing industry and with no power around the top table.... oh hang on

And shit weather. But it does have the TT....

 

[mack341]

Well 72 to be exact. All the rest would have gone through anyway, the public don't get a vote on laws
But out of the thousands, feel free to pick a couple?

we get to vote in who makes the laws, or is that of no importance or value to the british people?

I don't understand what you mean re 'well 72 to be exact', the civil service just disagreed with those 72, may have been laws that tiptoed into areas they see as sacrosanct and under their jurisdiction, You don't really think the civil service mandarins think like normal common sense people surely??

laws should be passed that improve things not just for the sake of it, like a micro managing control freak. Hasn't your experience of the ukgc quango with its reams of guidance [euphemism for regulations/law] taught you anything?

 

[goatwack]

Ah excellent. Just the 10 days to go with this thread! Guess it's gonna get really spicy with each passing hour

 

[Okman]

I did edit my post as I wanted to re amplify my original point regarding who, how and why the AFD was possibly being labelled/smeared as far right [ultra conservative being a euphemism of far right or beyond the pale]

The meaning of your statement as I interpreted it was there is unbiased justification [which had nothing to do with the powerful influence of liberal mainstream media] for describing their policies as extreme right, however I disagree and think that totally overlooks the power and influence of the media to determine the political spectrum, of what's acceptable and what's not.

I'm experiencing it now in the UK, where you have a experienced channel four news presenter commentating on live tv how the brexit protesters were all white skinned. He was trying to insinuate for the viewer at home that the brexit movement is racist, so he is trying to label and influence the political debate. times this agenda by 24hrs a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year for 25 odd years across all media and you can see the power and influence it must have.

You miss my point. You originally argued that 30 years ago it was all different and ultra conservative now would simply be conservative.

The idea of political spectrum of left and right dates back to the days of the French Revolution, and the charts people still refer to (Nolan Charts and Pournelle Charts) were created in the 1960’s. Even today’s popular coloured political compass reflects these.

We can argue semiotics and semantics all day, but not acknowledging AfD for what they actually propose and stand for is just ignorance. Just call a spade a spade.

 

[steveh35]

Ah excellent. Just the 10 days to go with this thread! Guess it's gonna get really spicy with each passing hour

I doubt it will be 10 days only in our dreams even if we left on 12 April it wouldn't end they would just find a way to block the no deal and extend article 50. This has no end whatever happens.

 

[goatwack]

I'm still finding it really tricky dividing the Remainers from the Leavers. So ambiguous

 

[sledge13]

No but an overspend of £675000, when the result was so close, could easily have been the difference between the stay/leave result being different.

Hahah unreal not this rubbish again!! The remainers had £10 million worth of overspend with the cons remain leaflets shoved through all our doors, abs disgusting waste of propoganda money!

 

[mack341]

You miss my point. You originally argued that 30 years ago it was all different and ultra conservative now would simply be conservative.

The idea of political spectrum of left and right dates back to the days of the French Revolution, and the charts people still refer to (Nolan Charts and Pournelle Charts) were created in the 1960’s. Even today’s popular coloured political compass reflects these.

We can argue semiotics and semantics all day, but not acknowledging AfD for what they actually propose and stand for is just ignorance. Just call a spade a spade.

how am I wrong then? I lived through this exact period and know it's true, many mainstream conservative views 30 years ago would be labelled far right now by the media and liberal politicians. That's a fact.

I am not an expert on the AFD and surprised you being all the way out there in australia are interested in them and presumably the german political scene enough to follow it as closely as you do, however in my view without 25-30 years of political correctness from the liberal elite the views she gave in that video, for instance, regarding a European border would not be viewed as far right...

 

[colinsunderland]

we get to vote in who makes the laws, or is that of no importance or value to the british people?

I don't understand what you mean re 'well 72 to be exact', the civil service just disagreed with those 72, may have been laws that tiptoed into areas they see as sacrosanct and under their jurisdiction, You don't really think the civil service mandarins think like normal common sense people surely??

laws should be passed that improve things not just for the sake of it, like a micro managing control freak. Hasn't your experience of the ukgc quango with its reams of guidance [euphemism for regulations/law] taught you anything?

You should be a politician, you would be pretty good it it.

 

[mack341]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

yeah her old Maj and the royal family weren't stupid, she'll never let the EU get their hands on her property and offshore financial tax havens, I did ask @ChopleyIOM would he vote to be directly governed by the EU rather than Maj but he hasn't come back as yet on that, still I feel he does have a right of opinion/say on brexit.

 

[mack341]

You should be a politician, you would be pretty good it it.

That's a back handed compliment if ever I've seen one

 

[Okman]

how am I wrong then? I lived through this exact period and know it's true, many mainstream conservative views 30 years ago would be labelled far right now by the media and liberal politicians. That's a fact.

I am not an expert on the AFD and surprised you being all the way out there in australia are interested in them and presumably the german political scene enough to follow it as closely as you do, however in my view without 25-30 years of political correctness from the liberal elite the views she gave in that video, for instance, regarding a European border would not be viewed as far right...

Family is from Essex. Not that it has anything to do with what we are speaking about.

I really tried to just have a civil discourse with you, but you remain (no pun intended) pig headed about it. I conceded points in the interest of debate, you concede nothing.

I’m on a gambling forum lol