Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

I don't deny the EU are being arses about this in some regards mack, the shit they threatened to pull with the vaccines a couple of weeks ago was a proper dick move. (Albeit they withdrew the idea very quickly and apologised.)

And I cannot stress this enough, I am not and never have been a massive and/or uncritical fan of the EU, I've said as much in this very thread on multiple occasions.

However I do think, and have advocated for, it being 'the least worst option' available to us and that we're better off being a member and exerting power and influence and trying to change it from within, rather than than stamping off in a huff and then moaning about things we have no control over as a third country. (Which is what we opted to become.)

And that's what we're finding out the hard way now, that as a third country, who elected to leave the club, however flawed the club may be, we basically have bugger all influence in how the club runs its affairs, and all we can do is write impotent letters moaning about things.

In the act of allegedly taking back control, we are now having to essentially write letters to the EU asking for things over which we have no control.

Wind the clock back to much of the 90s, and I was probably hopeful we would gain some of the better aspects of european life, rather than being so class ridden and falling to bits with social problems but alas that never happened, and wrongly or rightly, enough people came to the belief by 2016 that an expensive EU membership was a negative on the whole.

I do not sit here hating the various peoples of europe, I don't like the way the EU carries on, and at least with our politicians/leaders if they piss us off enough we can boot them out and replace them, without that option a powerful, political organisation becomes too dictatorial for me.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

JD Sports' Executive Chairman says that Brexit has drowned them in red tape and increased their costs, which he puts into the 'double digit millions'. Makes using the UK as an EU hub non-viable (as they import from the Far East and export to EU, which attracts tariffs), so they will be moving most of their warehousing and around 1000 staff to the EU in the near future.

Listen from 21m30s to hear it from his own mouth.

I await from John Redwood the suggestion that we should grow our own footwear.

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[interlog]

JD Sports' Executive Chairman says that Brexit has drowned them in red tape and increased their costs, which he puts into the 'double digit millions'. Makes using the UK as an EU hub non-viable (as they import from the Far East and export to EU, which attracts tariffs), so they will be moving most of their warehousing and around 1000 staff to the EU in the near future.

Listen from 21m30s to hear it from his own mouth.

I await from John Redwood the suggestion that we should grow our own footwear.

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View attachment 150313

Didn't he also say that his shops should be open despite of the Coronavirus lockdown?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm not making a case one way or the other as to how nice a chap he is, or indeed as to the ethics of JD Sports as a business.

 

[interlog]

I'm not making a case one way or the other as to how nice a chap he is, or indeed as to the ethics of JD Sports as a business.

I put him down as one of those that looks to blame others for the failings of his own business.

 

[colinsunderland]

I put him down as one of those that looks to blame others for the failings of his own business.

They made £350 million profit last year so are doing ok
No idea why people buy there though as most the stuff is half the price elsewhere!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

When a Leaver blames a Remainer for the shafting that UK fishermen have received.



We all remember how Johnson's hands were tied, right? And how miserable he looked when his AMAZING DEAL was signed at Christmas?

Ahhhh yes.....

That's the thing with Brexit and Leave, it's a permanent victim state, it's always someone else's fault.

 

[mack341]

Govey's take:

Asked about his thoughts on the situation, Cabinet Officer Minister Michael Gove compared it to a bumpy start to a flight, saying: "We all know that when an aeroplane takes off, that is the point where you sometime get an increased level of turbulence.
"But eventually, you then reach a cruising altitude and the crew tell you to take your seatbelt off and enjoy a gin and tonic and some peanuts."
He added: "We are not at the gin and tonic and peanut stage yet, but I am confident we will be."

Lord Frost said the UK wanted "friendly cooperation between sovereign equals as our vision of the future", but said: "I don't think it has been quite the experience of the last few weeks, if we are honest about it."
He added: "I think the EU is still adjusting somewhat, as we thought they might, to the existence of a genuinely independent actor in their neighbourhood."

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But that means nothing, literally nothing, it's just a total word salad.

Gove is blathering on about gin and tonics whilst British businesses up and down the country are going to the wall because their trading relationship with the EU has been shot to pieces, in the exact opposite reality to what they were promised would transpire.

And every day stuff like this is happening. This article also contains an interesting note about how there's a limit to what the UK government can do even with all the control we've taken back. Because all those 'WTO Rules' we were talking about being just fine? There's a clue in the name. Rules. And rules have to be followed.

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Food has been one of the industries worst-hit by the post-Brexit trade deal, with exports ranging from

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to

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held up and spoiling because they lack the correct paperwork. Matt Legon, whose Norfolk-based Gnaw Chocolate generates about 1.5 million pounds ($2 million) of trade in the EU each year, has tried to make three deliveries so far in 2021: one was delayed, another ruined, and the third is yet to arrive.

“We are struggling to export anything at the moment,” Legon said by telephone. “To call it a car crash is an understatement.”

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While the government may be tempted to to delay the introduction of the new import checks on food or enforce them only lightly, there are limits to that approach, Brennan said.

“They’ll be looking to dial that down to the minimum they can get away with,” he said. But “World Trade Organization rules require them to implement their trading rules in full.”

 

[mack341]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That's a continuity trade agreement.

i.e. The same one we had before as an EU member. The UK and Ghana have agreed to roll it over into a new agreement, that's all.

Today we are pleased to announce that we have reached a consensus on the main elements of a new trade agreement. This provides the basis to replicate, the effects of the existing trade relationship between the UK and Ghana – a relationship which is underpinned by our strong people to people connections and has driven economic growth, created jobs, and inspired creativity and innovation in both our countries.



And there was actually some uncertainty for Ghana in the interim.

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UK-Ghana trade is in limbo with a continuity deal not agreed between the two countries before the end of the transition period.

Ghana is one of many countries the UK previously had preferential trading arrangements with through its membership of the EU.

Civil servants have spent the past three years trying to preserve this market access, but a deal was not reached with Ghana before the UK completed its split from the EU on 31 December 2020, thereby ending its membership of EU trade deals.

 

[interlog]

That's a continuity trade agreement.

i.e. The same one we had before as an EU member. The UK and Ghana have agreed to roll it over into a new agreement, that's all.

Today we are pleased to announce that we have reached a consensus on the main elements of a new trade agreement. This provides the basis to replicate, the effects of the existing trade relationship between the UK and Ghana – a relationship which is underpinned by our strong people to people connections and has driven economic growth, created jobs, and inspired creativity and innovation in both our countries.

View attachment 150379

And there was actually some uncertainty for Ghana in the interim.

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UK-Ghana trade is in limbo with a continuity deal not agreed between the two countries before the end of the transition period.

Ghana is one of many countries the UK previously had preferential trading arrangements with through its membership of the EU.

Civil servants have spent the past three years trying to preserve this market access, but a deal was not reached with Ghana before the UK completed its split from the EU on 31 December 2020, thereby ending its membership of EU trade deals.

Which goes to show that it doesn't need the EU to make such trade deals, something that I am sure you have hinted we are shit at making in this Country, or that the EU is better at it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've mentioned these rollover/continuity trade deals multiple times in this thread. They're exactly what they sound like, both countries just agree to carry on doing what they were doing before, because it works out best for both of them.

In Ghana's case they export a shitload of bananas to us and it's a major source of income and employment for them, and we export quite a lot of varied products to them.

These trade deals are a good thing, I've never said otherwise, my point is however that our 'best case scenario' every single time is just replicating what we already had as an EU member, so we're no better off in that regard, whilst also taking the hit on all the other stuff that's coming to pass now we're out of transition - so 'UK Plc' is still in a worse place overall.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Not looking to derail the convo just something a little lighter for the thread

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Could be more good international trade news for uk plc:

"Both Ministers reiterated their commitment to long term India-UK partnership and agreed to deepen trade cooperation between the two countries through an Enhanced Trade Partnership (ETP). They also reviewed progress in removing market access barriers on both sides

View attachment 150305

Decent piece that mentions this 'Indian Trade Deal' nonsense.

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Even now, they try to maintain the pretence. Last week, the Sun announced that Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, had created a post-Brexit “

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” with Delhi. Already it had “created” 1,540 jobs, courtesy of the Indian tech firm Tata Consultancy Services.

It was pure propaganda: utter bullshit. No one knows what “Enhanced Trade Partnership” means, the former government trade official David Henig told me. I asked Truss’s department when it was signed and how might exporters read its terms. They can’t. There’s

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beyond a “commitment” to a “long-term India-UK partnership” and the hope of drawing up a “road map”. The UK and India have signed no agreement. Tata Consultancy is already in Britain. Indeed, it was ranked as the “

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”. Truss’s department accepts Tata’s new jobs are “not linked directly” to the alleged partnership.

Perhaps later this year, Britain and India will agree to reduce a few tariffs and harmonise a few standards. There won’t be a real free-trade deal with India, however. Liam Fox promised one in 2017, but could not deliver because India wanted greater freedom of movement for its people into Britain and, in any event, the Indian government is

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.

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I can see why Truss, Johnson and Gove hope no one will notice that their hard Brexit has seen the people of

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the consequences of a border in the Irish Sea,

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as Europe’s largest share-trading centre and businesses

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. They lied to the nation and to themselves and don’t want to suffer the consequences. Their spinning and diversionary tactics are to be expected.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Rather depressingly, I'm inclined to agree with Rafael Behr on this.

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[mack341]

who are these 'architects of brexit', did they negotiate the uk/eu deal or advise boris?

The guardian will slate socially conservative people come what may, this narrative about brexiteers is just part of that imo.

Apparently the IOM is quite strict about all manner of things, behaviour etc.. [not talking lockdown but pre that] there's no big social problems, homeless people living in underpasses, drug addict syringes in the park, crack addict stronghouses, burgularies and muggings etc..

The people in charge of IOM would never want to be part of the EU, paying them good money in turn to take instructions, they can manage their own island. Why should the uk be any different?

 

[geordiecolin]

who are these 'architects of brexit', did they negotiate the uk/eu deal or advise boris?

The guardian will slate socially conservative people come what may, this narrative about brexiteers is just part of that imo.

Apparently the IOM is quite strict about all manner of things, behaviour etc.. [not talking lockdown but pre that] there's no big social problems, homeless people living in underpasses, drug addict syringes in the park, crack addict stronghouses, burgularies and muggings etc..

The people in charge of IOM would never want to be part of the EU, paying them good money in turn to take instructions, they can manage their own island. Why should the uk be any different?

Given their horrendous trade deficit will Le Pen win the next election in France and trigger Frexit?

 

[mack341]

Given their horrendous trade deficit will Le Pen win the next election in France and trigger Frexit?

If she does that will surely be the end of the EU, even a close remain referendum result would be a damning verdict, that people don't really want a govt (based elsewhere) and with a legion of technocrats above the govt they democratically elect, telling them what they must do...it's never going to be popular in the long run I would've thought, esp if the countries still retain a strong national identity, like the french do.

They say the british govt were holding back the EU, from being more bold and socialist, so now we don't have a vote and big say, the pro EU politicians can get on with how they want things to go, and see how the public like it.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Not trying to play it down but separations rarely go smooth.

There is a power struggle while both sides play their positions.

No Brexit would have been the nail in the coffin for democracy in the UK.


What would have been classed as simple trading or change in legislation is now focused as Brexit horror.

 

[Kroffe]

If she does that will surely be the end of the EU, even a close remain referendum result would be a damning verdict, that people don't really want a govt (based elsewhere) and with a legion of technocrats above the govt they democratically elect, telling them what they must do...it's never going to be popular in the long run I would've thought, esp if the countries still retain a strong national identity, like the french do.

They say the british govt were holding back the EU, from being more bold and socialist, so now we don't have a vote and big say, the pro EU politicians can get on with how they want things to go, and see how the public like it.

How would a close remain vote be damning and show that people do not want to be in the EU?
I mean, it would actually show the exact opposite, that the majority wants to be in the EU, right?

 

[mack341]

How would a close remain vote be damning and show that people do not want to be in the EU?
I mean, it would actually show the exact opposite, that the majority wants to be in the EU, right?

Well in the uk when a govt has a small majority, it's generally seen they do not have a strong mandate, when you're giving away sovereign powers to a new international organisation [historically speaking] it deserves a greater majority vote imo. The natural state of affairs is for the french to self govern rather than have to negotiate laws with 26 other countries, can that really be decided by 1 more vote in favour of it, or should there be more of a willing consensus for something bolted on like the EU, that changes the range of powers the people you elect have.

 

[Kroffe]

Well in the uk when a govt has a small majority, it's generally seen they do not have a strong mandate, when you're giving away sovereign powers to a new international organisation [historically speaking] it deserves a greater majority vote imo. The natural state of affairs is for the french to self govern rather than have to negotiate laws with 26 other countries, can that really be decided by 1 more vote in favour of it, or should there be more of a willing consensus for something bolted on, that changes the range of powers the people you elect have.

Yes, and sometimes no.
I hope the above answer explains my position regarding this.

 

[paul7388]

Well in the uk when a govt has a small majority, it's generally seen they do not have a strong mandate, when you're giving away sovereign powers to a new international organisation [historically speaking] it deserves a greater majority vote imo. The natural state of affairs is for the french to self govern rather than have to negotiate laws with 26 other countries, can that really be decided by 1 more vote in favour of it, or should there be more of a willing consensus for something bolted on like the EU, that changes the range of powers the people you elect have.

Tell that to Sturgeon.

Who thinks as soon as she gets a 1 vote majority it will prove the whole country is screaming out for independence.

 

[mack341]

Swedes still sceptical about EU

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[2001]

By BBC News Online's Lars Bevanger in Gothenburg
As the top leaders of the European Union meet here in Gothenburg, the Swedish public is greeting them with mixed feelings.

The latest opinion polls still show a majority would vote against Swedish EU membership now, were they given the chance.

The Swedes have for a long time had an ambivalent attitude to the EU. In a closely fought referendum in 1994 only 52.3% of the population voted for joining the union.

Since then hardly any poll has shown a majority in favour EU membership.

Deep divides

The debate was fierce ahead of Sweden's referendum in 1994. The turnout for the referendum was considerable, more than 83% of voters.
But by the time the Swedes went to the polls again for the 1995 European parliamentarian election, it seemed the interest in Europe had died down. A mere 41% cast their vote.

Still, talking to people today enjoying a day out at Gothenburg's Liseberg amusement park, questions about Sweden in Europe reveals the old divides and heartfelt emotions remain.

Ulla-May Asterberg and her husband Gunnar were split in their opinion in 1994, and still are.

"I voted no, and would definitely do it again," Ulla-May says.
"There is no way I would vote otherwise today. Norway is doing very well outside the EU, why can't we?"

Social democracy

But there are other reasons why many Swedes remain sceptical about the EU.

The Swedish social democracy has deep roots, and the Social Democratic party has dominated politics for much of the 20th century.
Many on the no-side of the Swedish EU debate now argue Sweden is moving too fast towards an American-style market-led economy, threatening the country's well-developed social services system.

...today the majority of the Swedish people still remains to be convinced of the benefits of their country's membership.

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I get the sense sweden is more pro EU now, but still shows this wasn't always the case and could change back imo.