Brexit - whats the difference.....

09237653

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To follow on from chopleys points Brexiters and the hard right have a permanent victim mentality they were never supposed to win the referendum they just wanted to use it to further their victim narrative, the right have been in power for 10 years now we have the hardest brexit possible happening (no deal) and STILL they are playing the victim. Same thing happening over in America with Drumph.

I wonder if once we lose the NHS, human rights, workers rights and food standards (and basically become America) if they'll reach any realization of the con or still be chasing unicorns by then.
 

Mr_Slot5

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Location
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To follow on from chopleys points Brexiters and the hard right have a permanent victim mentality they were never supposed to win the referendum they just wanted to use it to further their victim narrative, the right have been in power for 10 years now we have the hardest brexit possible happening (no deal) and STILL they are playing the victim. Same thing happening over in America with Drumph.

I wonder if once we lose the NHS, human rights, workers rights and food standards (and basically become America) if they'll reach any realization of the con or still be chasing unicorns by then.
What is so hard to understand about people wanting the UK to make it's own legislation for the UK. Why should we have to run things via Brussels first? Its really not a crime, nor racist for people to be nationalistic to some degree.

Globalisation is the reason for a lot of the evils we see in the world today.
 

Matti

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I've been thinking about this subject some more, and it's sort of occurred to me that the fundamental disconnect between Leavers and Remainers is whether or not you think Brexit is a good idea. Yeah I know hardly a revelation, but it explains the opinions and attitudes we're seeing in this thread (and over in the General Election 2019 thread).

In short, to Remainers, Brexit is a problem to be solved, it's purely a damage limitation exercise now. We've left the EU, the transition is coming to an end, and we need to find a position outside the EU that isn't too damaging. We never thought it was a good idea, and we're not even remotely surprised that all the stuff that was predicted years ago is now coming to pass. 'I told you so' doesn't help anyone of course, but there is an element of that to the proceedings now, albeit there is no joy in it. Brexit is a totally shit idea and it's harmful, always was, always will be.

Leavers however, have a problem. The problem they have is that every single thing the Leave campaign was predicated on has turned out to be an absolute pile of horseshit and lies. However, to acknowledge this is also to admit that a terrible mistake has been made, 'buyer's remorse' if you will, the admission that you've been sold an absolute pup by a bunch of charlatans and conmen.

This is why, I think, that Leavers are the least happy group of 'winners' I've ever seen. They should be delighted, Brexit is happening! The UK has left the EU, we're coming out of transition, we will be free, we will be stronger, we will be independent! Global Britain once again asserting its rightful position at the top of the international food chain!

Except it's painfully obvious to everyone, Leavers and Remainers alike, that the reality is desperately far removed from this, and it's only going to get worse.

I mean, if you think about it, if Brexit is such a good idea, why is it so difficult to do well? Why is it so hard to end up in a position that's even comparable to where we were before, let alone any better?

This is why Leavers exist in a permanent state of victimhood and blame, so when anything goes wrong with Brexit, it isn't the fault of Brexit itself, (because Brexit is a GOOD IDEA), it's the fault of someone or something else.

So it's 'Theresa The Remainer' or the 'Remainer Civil Service' or the 'EU wanting to punish us' or 'MSM agendas' or 'INSERT VILLAIN OF THE DAY HERE' - so now here we are on the cusp of a No Deal Brexit, and it's the fault of everything EXCEPT Brexit itself. We're still treating the EU like the membership of a gym, we've left the gym and stopped paying our membership fees, but we still expect to be able to use the jacuzzi, and we act all surprised and hurt when the gym tells us to piss off.

So here's the thing. The problem is Brexit. Brexit is the fail state, Brexit is the damage, Brexit is the harm, Brexit is what will diminish the UK on the international stage and leave the UK a poorer and weaker nation.

Brexit has consequences, and those consequences are the result of Brexit - nothing else.
Here is a song for you Degsy. You have my empathy.;)

 

datch

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Germany
What is so hard to understand about people wanting the UK to make it's own legislation for the UK. Why should we have to run things via Brussels first? Its really not a crime, nor racist for people to be nationalistic to some degree.

Globalisation is the reason for a lot of the evils we see in the world today.
I don't think the problem is that the UK left, that is their right as an independent country.

The problem is, the UK left the EU and want to choose the privileges they want to keep (e.g. free access to the single market etc)
without offering anything substantial in return.
At least, that's how the most people in EU-Europe feel. This is not going to happen. Why should the EU member states allow that?
 

vorcirion

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Location
Tampere
What is so hard to understand about people wanting the UK to make it's own legislation for the UK. Why should we have to run things via Brussels first? Its really not a crime, nor racist for people to be nationalistic to some degree.

Globalisation is the reason for a lot of the evils we see in the world today.
What kind of evils does this globalisation bring in your mind?
To me these nationalistic leaders: Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro, Xi Jinping, Duterte etc. bring the real evil to the world.
 

mack341

Senior Member
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Location
south east england
I don't think the problem is that the UK left, that is their right as an independent country.

The problem is, the UK left the EU and want to choose the privileges they want to keep (e.g. free access to the single market etc)
without offering anything substantial in return.
At least, that's how the most people in EU-Europe feel. This is not going to happen. Why should the EU member states allow that?
Isn't that what the EU recently gave japan and canada, two countries they export less to than the uk ?

I'm not minded if we have to go a no-deal route and impose world trade tariffs, rather than have the EU continue to determine uk law indirectly via a theresa may remainer style deal.
 

datch

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Isn't that what the EU recently gave japan and canada, two countries they export less to than the uk ?

I'm not minded if we have to go a no-deal route and impose world trade tariffs, rather than have the EU continue to determine uk law indirectly via a theresa may remainer style deal.
No it is not. E g. Food standards: Canada will fully obey to EU standards. And financial services- the most important sector for the UK- is not part of the Canada trade deal.

That's how trade deals and treaties work, you always give up some souverenity, every party has to make concessions. As far as I can see the UK does not want to obey to any rules but their own, dictate an agreement and not negotiate one. It wants to bring the cake and eat it, also called cherry picking.
Why should the EU allow that?

I think a hard no-deal is the only option left and it is not EUs fault. Why do you think Mr Frost has not left the table.... Because the UK government is desperate for a deal.
 

mack341

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Location
south east england
No it is not. E g. Food standards: Canada will fully obey to EU standards. And financial services- the most important sector for the UK- is not part of the Canada trade deal.

That's how trade deals and treaties work, you always give up some souverenity, every party has to make concessions. As far as I can see the UK does not want to obey to any rules but their own, dictate an agreement and not negotiate one. It wants to bring the cake and eat it, also called cherry picking.
Why should the EU allow that?

I think a hard no-deal is the only option left and it is not EUs fault. Why do you think Mr Frost has not left the table.... Because the UK government is desperate for a deal.
let's be clear so the EU have not signed trade deals with Japan and canada that give them free access to the single market? [that was the example you gave]

We have asked for the same deal iirc, so if it's conditional and with restrictions as you mention above, why isn't that good enough for the EU then?

Regarding concessions it rather depends on what they are and why the EU want them. what sovereignty have japan and canada given up to the EU and vice versa?
 

Mr_Slot5

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Joined
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Location
Cheshire
No it is not. E g. Food standards: Canada will fully obey to EU standards. And financial services- the most important sector for the UK- is not part of the Canada trade deal.

That's how trade deals and treaties work, you always give up some souverenity, every party has to make concessions. As far as I can see the UK does not want to obey to any rules but their own, dictate an agreement and not negotiate one. It wants to bring the cake and eat it, also called cherry picking.
Why should the EU allow that?

I think a hard no-deal is the only option left and it is not EUs fault. Why do you think Mr Frost has not left the table.... Because the UK government is desperate for a deal.
Well alot of what you espouse is fundamentally correct. However, what the EU encapsulates transcends economic legislation; it is increasingly intertwining politics. People in the UK (Leavers) simply do not want to be part of a superstate nor contribute to an EU army. That is not what we originally signed up for. It was purely economic.

As time has gone, more and more treaties have been passed without the UK public even having a say. Ireland got a say but when the wrong result occurred (a no) they were forced to vote again.

If you think the EU is altruistically democratic then fair enough but I beg to differ and hence fully support leave.
 

Playford7

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Went for food last night with a mate...
Sign this, put your name to that, have a set table.... what a bore.

Totally takes away from the reason we went out anyways...

no masks needed, but I need to wear one buying smokes next door at Sainsbury’s? Lol really?..

Always been a massively conservative leaning man...
After this farce I’ll never vote again, happy to give up my right to discuss politics, this nonsense no matter whom ran the place shows to me it’s a joke.
 

Playford7

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Location
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No it is not. E g. Food standards: Canada will fully obey to EU standards. And financial services- the most important sector for the UK- is not part of the Canada trade deal.

That's how trade deals and treaties work, you always give up some souverenity, every party has to make concessions. As far as I can see the UK does not want to obey to any rules but their own, dictate an agreement and not negotiate one. It wants to bring the cake and eat it, also called cherry picking.
Why should the EU allow that?

I think a hard no-deal is the only option left and it is not EUs fault. Why do you think Mr Frost has not left the table.... Because the UK government is desperate for a deal.
Hi mate. After your false allegations I did send a PM to you.
You must have missed it.
 

Playford7

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Location
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What kind of evils does this globalisation bring in your mind?
To me these nationalistic leaders: Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro, Xi Jinping, Duterte etc. bring the real evil to the world.
There is a reason they are voted in power.
Unless of course your totally correct and the rest of us are racists, bigots and bad folks...

your conduct and that of your peers on other threads actually shows your ironical intolerance of other opinions, I’ll not get into the silly cancel culture... but people and leaders are democratically voted in or out due to people’s own reasons... hence trump, brazil, boris smashing the socialist loonies out of the park...

Many of us don’t want PC nonsense, we ain’t all the same.
Boris has been a embarrassing appointment, I’m happy to say that... he’s made a mess...

Him or the prospect of...
David lammy (massive racist)
Diane butler (massive racist) and thick as a log ..
Angela rayner... Lol

or the delightful Jess Philips...whom finds male suicide funny (pro feminist)

the conservative’s have been terrible and I voted for them, the alternative was a million times worse... labour are cancer
 

Playford7

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In case any one is wondering we are debating -- rather hotly -- what will be done about this. I just didn't want anyone to think that we let it pass without a thought.
So what is the outcome after all the thoughts? Just to add I’ve also PM’d those whom called me names (which the mods here ignored
) it’s frankly embarrassing this was even a thing... btw all those whom where so outraged and upset where not that much upset to even Speak to me.... I’d happily have a conversation with anyone, should they deny that and not me shows open intolerance... how ironic.
 

Playford7

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Location
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What kind of evils does this globalisation bring in your mind?
To me these nationalistic leaders: Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro, Xi Jinping, Duterte etc. bring the real evil to the world.
Uncontrolled migration. Places that where once great Turned into shit holes... mass unemployment, fraud, grooming gangs and a high street that looks like Baghdad....

its happening where Iam, it’s a disgrace...

Oh but we have loads of ‘cash only’ car washes, pizza shops and taxi drivers... yay
 

mack341

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south east england
This guy's mad [ bit of a pun there :p ] he hates the nation state, which is tied to free democracy, and wants all the nation's military forces combined under the undemocratic EU's control instead.

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1598137151177.png
 

Playford7

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maxd

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So what is the outcome after all the thoughts?...
That's work in progress. When there is something to report we'll let you know.

FTR those we are upset by comments like yours are under no obligation to inform or discuss it with you. IMO given your outspoken position(s) of hatred and intolerance they would be unwise to do so. The Report system is there for their use and, as always, I encourage them to use it.
 
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datch

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Hi mate. After your false allegations I did send a PM to you.
You must have missed it.
Good morning Sir,

I tried to answer but it seems to be locked, as it won't send. Anyway my answer was like:
--------------------------
What exactly about "I'm not interested in PMing" you don't understand?
--------------------------
Look, maybe you should think twice before posting something polarizing (don't know if this is the correct word) like "sink them".
It is not only inhuman, you are damaging Casinomeisters' reputation and your own. You are also causing financial damage as you drive people away from this site.

It gives the strong impression that you want to provoke people by posting such a crap (troll), especially if you look at your history here.
 

ChopleyIOM

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IOM
let's be clear so the EU have not signed trade deals with Japan and canada that give them free access to the single market? [that was the example you gave]

We have asked for the same deal iirc, so if it's conditional and with restrictions as you mention above, why isn't that good enough for the EU then?

Regarding concessions it rather depends on what they are and why the EU want them. what sovereignty have japan and canada given up to the EU and vice versa?
It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.
 
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Kroffe

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It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.
Its almost like UK wants the perks of being in the EU, without having to abide by any of the rules.


hh.gif
 

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