Brexit - whats the difference.....

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

1598177914033.png
1598177944733.png

1598177872254.png
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

View attachment 139753
View attachment 139754

View attachment 139752
So you reckon we might yet after all have no pigs-in-blankets this Christmas?

 
Last edited:

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.
That was a reply and questions to datch, funny how often that happens on this forum people answering my posts on behalf of others, but they never answer posts on behalf of me to others hmmm.

I don't mind debate from any direction, and I've probably done it myself a few times, but sometimes it does mean the thread is lost.

[and not all questions are replied to, e.g. what sovereignty have japan and canada given to the EU and vice versa? maybe no one knows but datch did say it was part of all trade deals. I am always open to being convinced on a point and other people have knowledge of things I don't, read and have access to different sources of news etc... ]

Because it was part of a logical debate in relation to previous posts; I said I favour a no-deal compared to a theresa may style deal, so this leaver victimhood syndrome you talk about is not really a label you should be applying in my direction. And I think there could be a bit of projection going on here, the victimhood mentality resides in remainers.
 
Last edited:

Mr_Slot5

Experienced Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
CAG
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Location
Londonia
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
Reported for being a selfish Bracist thicko

:eek:
 

vorcirion

Meister Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Location
Tampere
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
Great. Bye!
Now EU can focus on more important things :p
 

vorcirion

Meister Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Location
Tampere
I have no ill feeling towards the EU nor its member states and hope that it can continue to do the best by the countries it has under its umbrella :) Every other European country will still be a friend of the UK.
Sure and UK can always come back to the EU I'm sure. But in the meanwhile EU should use all the leverage it can to get the most favorable trade deal for the EU with the UK. Gonna need some extra cash to deal with problems inside the EU.
 

datch

Full Member
mm1
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Location
Germany
I can sign Chopleys answer, but I wouldn't be able to formulate it that nice as English is not even my second language. :D

"Giving up sovereignty" was meant in a more general sense. Both sides set (negotiate) rules that both sides have to adhere to, which means a loss of sovereignty (standards for food or factory farming, etc).
To do this, you have to be ready to step back from your "red lines" or to change them. The UK-"negotiation" - team around Frost doesn't seem to want to move an inch in the negotiations. Out of the abstract fear of losing sovereignty, the uk-team wants to dictate and not negotiate.
That is excactly not how negotiations of trade deals work (at least if a party is in a weak position like the UK).
Hope I didn't create more confusion now :)
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
Well you're in the minority, because only 35% of Leave voters thought the UK would leave the Single Market at the time of the referendum, let alone end up leaving with No Deal.

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on in some camps. 'Ahhhhh yes this is exactly what I voted for. Even though absolutely no one was talking about us ever ending up in this position in the lead up to the referendum, I however could clearly see that not only was this situation a distinct possibility, it is indeed desirable'.

1598253363264.png
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
In fact, let's refresh our memories a little bit. Because it seems to me that pretty much literally no one who was prominent in the Leave campaign was saying anything other than how easy Brexit would be, what a great deal we'd get, and everything would get better.

These are just a small sample. So the narrative now is, that folks heard what all these people were saying and concluded, 'They're all wrong, I'm voting Leave because I think No Deal is not only possible, but also desirable and I am voting on that basis'.

1598256920007.png
1598256951430.png
1598256977413.png
1598257046578.png
 
Last edited:

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?
 

vorcirion

Meister Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Location
Tampere
No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?
paranoid about what exactly?
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?
Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.
 
Last edited:

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
paranoid about what exactly?

Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing comparatively better outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.
 
Last edited:

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.
If you look at the opinion polls from other EU countries, their populations are now more pro-EU than they were at the time the UK voted to leave in 2016. The shift isn't massive, but it is there. The notion that Brexit would precipitate the collapse of the EU was a fallacy in 2016, and it's a fallacy now.

Other EU countries have, in essence, looked at the utter shitshow we've foisted upon ourselves and said, 'Yeah, on balance, whilst the EU isn't perfect, it's certainly a lot better than what the UK is doing.'
 

vorcirion

Meister Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Location
Tampere
Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.
Oh that sounds like there are some outside forces that's controlling all these countries :p
You know these EU countries stay together 'cause they want to. Any one of them can leave just like UK did if they wanted to.
 

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.
:laugh: Chop Life is a bit more complicated and nuanced than that as you well know following current affairs and politics. I also knew the politicians from the remain side were also lying and using fear to get people to vote their way. [edit: exaggerating is probably the better term for both sides]

Well if the EU want to shoot themselves and us in the foot, it's up to them; their negotiating red lines leaves us in a position of having hardly left, we'll still have to follow their rules [new and old] etc...

I am expecting some sort of UK compromise simply because of the establishment are mainly remainers, and they get what they want, we will have the appearance of brexit though.

The fact david frost is solidly sticking to his guns has surprised me a bit, as it's totally different to the way negotiations were handled before, however I struggle to believe it's about haulage rules or other side issues, even fishing as we hardly have any fishermen left to fish our waters.

After reading these two articles/blogs below, I tend to think it's more likely about financial services and the city of london, and who will make their rules, the UK or the EU.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top