Brexit - whats the difference.....

[paul7388]

It's good news, obviously, not just for the thousands of people directly employed there, but also the tens of thousands of jobs in the wider supply and support chain that rely on it.

However, let's remember that this is just 'something that stays the same as before', it's not a 'Brexit Benefit' or anything like that, Nissan have been in Sunderland since 1984 and have invested in it massively over the years, so for them to shut up shop and move the plant somewhere else would be hugely expensive. Also, Nissan explicitly stated that in the event of No Deal Brexit the plant would become non-viable so the Brexit Deal 'saved' the plant in that regard, but it only needed saving in the first place because of the threat that Brexit posed to it.

I'm still waiting for anyone to list an actual Brexit benefit, because so far all we've got is a load of things getting worse and in the case of Nissan, we're left 'celebrating' over the fact that something has simply managed to stay the same as it was before.

Not really.

The future of the plant was in doubt. They had postponed the making of a new car but have now went ahead with it. And they are now going to make the batteries in UK instead of importing them from Japan thanks to the new Tariff's.

Quite different from just staying the same.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Isnt the whole "sold the fishing industry down the drain" and "hell of alot of bureaucracy as part of the deal" because of brexit tho?
Or am i missing something?
Sounds to me like hes saying "this has nothing to do with brexit, but has everything to do with brexit"

This.

He literally and completely contradicts himself in the space of less than two minutes. Also, the fishing industry survived 2020 (i.e. Covid) and demand for UK catches sold in the EU held up fine, what's changed in 2021 is the end of transition and the imposition of all the new red tape, customs checks, and other bureaucracy.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not really.

The future of the plant was in doubt. They had postponed the making of a new car but have now went ahead with it. And they are now going to make the batteries in UK instead of importing them from Japan thanks to the new Tariff's.

Quite different from just staying the same.

The battery situation is an accidental and unintended consequence of the new 'rules of origin', that means it's beneficial for Nissan to produce the batteries in the UK.

So yes it's good news in that regard, but let's not pretend anyone was planning for it to happen.

Also, Nissan are a massive multinational company, they can take the hit on the extra paperwork and non-tariff barriers to trade that businesses now have to contend with, it's the UK SME sector that is really bleeding at the moment.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No, that's doesn't help these poor fish guys who are doomed. It seems that most of people have survived quite well already in very beginning of this Brexit thingie, don't see UK members complaining much here how shops are empty and you run out of food.

This bureaucracy what comes was there all to see like VAT:s and other things, i would bet that most of people survive and can cope with them. Some of course keep blaming Brexit about everything next twenty years and tell stories their grand children how Brexit ruined their coming million businesses and just because of that they ended up to sit in local every day having pints. When starting next soon multimiollion business, maybe have learnt value lesson to be prepared for changes and try to think all possible different scenarios instead of relying on everything to something you read from bus side.

Of course there are negative things for many, but most seem to be able to come over some challenges, it's not a question anymore if it happens or not but it happened and best for everyone probably is trying to live with that, UK have been damaged for some world wars and other things, this seems to be just another day in the office with some new regulations and which you just need to adapt. These worse case scenarios yet haven't been something that people wouldn't survive, i'm sure your social security can feed these poor fishermans if really needed or maybe some even learn to eat their own fish and start to build market for it inside of UK, wonder if you can sell something for all other countries but not one particular, maybe some come out with some new fish products made for UK market, could also believe that many would be happy to buy local fish if you just make it to be tasty and ok priced for people, maybe worth of trying, even wouldn't get the same price what used to from exporting it French who eat weird things.

Once again Slottery (I feel like we've had this discussion before ) - the sales pitch for Brexit wasn't based around, 'Yes there'll be a load of new regulations and some industries will suffer and the fishermen will be completely fucked and you might all need to start eating langoustines and mackerel whilst also creating a UK market for these out of thin air'.

In the medium to long term yes, it's arguably not a bad idea to produce and eat more of our own food, but there was never anything stopping this from happening before Brexit however changing eating habits is a slow process and Brits have simply never shown much appetite for a lot of what we catch.

And businesses are being ruined by Brexit, right now, it's happening. It's not necessarily visible (yet....) to many people because the Tescos and Nissans of this world are large multinational organisations that can take on the extra red tape and costs (although much of it will ultimately be passed to consumers), however many SMEs in the UK are already in dire straits and Brexit isn't even a month old yet.

It's all very well saying that businesses need to change and adapt, but first of all they need to survive, and in many cases that simply isn't going to happen.

On the point you've made several times about businesses should have prepared better, here's a single example (of many!) where the UK government advice was wrong, and errors in the IT systems made it impossible for businesses to prepare properly.





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[mack341]

We need the MP's to run the rule over this red tape as it sounds like the the govt/civil service may have created overly complicated requirements and procedures; that's how a democracy works, you need people to check things and ask questions. [press and journalists included]

Implying the only solution is to rejoin the EU is a bit much.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

We need the MP's to run the rule over this red tape as it sounds like the the govt/civil service may have created overly complicated requirements and procedures; that's how a democracy works, you need people to check things and ask questions. [press and journalists included]

Implying the only solution is to rejoin the EU is a bit much.

UK MPs can't overrule EU law mack, this is what being a third country means, along with leaving the single market and the customs union.

Some people tried to point all this out in 2016, back then it was known as 'Project Fear'.

EDIT - For clarity, the UK government hasn't conjured all this red tape up for a laugh, the red tape is what's now involved in trading with the EU. It hasn't helped that UK IT systems weren't ready and still have problems, but fundamentally the red tape is there because that's what trading with the EU as a third country involves. It's not going away and the UK government can't make it go away, in fact it literally just enacted it.

 

[mack341]

UK MPs can't overrule EU law mack, this is what being a third country means, along with leaving the single market and the customs union.

Some people tried to point all this out in 2016, back then it was known as 'Project Fear'.

EDIT - For clarity, the UK government hasn't conjured all this red tape up for a laugh, the red tape is what's now involved in trading with the EU. It hasn't helped that UK IT systems weren't ready and still have problems, but fundamentally the red tape is there because that's what trading with the EU as a third country involves. It's not going away and the UK government can't make it go away, in fact it literally just enacted it.

So it's the same in reverse for the EU traders to uk customers?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So it's the same in reverse for the EU traders to uk customers?

Yes, a lot of SME EU businesses have reduced or even ceased trading with the UK because it simply isn't worth their while to do so now.

I'm a member of a group on Facebook called 'The Real Ale Twats', quite a few folks on there have standing subscription type orders were brewers in the EU who send them beer packs on a regular basis, many of them have had emails along the lines of 'Really sorry but we're not sending out your orders for the immediate future as the increased red tape and costs post-Brexit have made it unviable for us to do so, we'll get back to normal when and if we can'.

Others have got emails telling them that their orders will still be sent but (a) It's going to cost more from now on and (b) There are no guarantees on delivery dates.

 

[mack341]

Surely this paperwork can't be more involved than when we trade [under wto rules] with other countries further away, otherwise Boris got a shite deal and blinked.

John redwood has a far superior conservative outlook/instinct than Bojo and his cronies can muster...

 

[Slottery]

Once again Slottery (I feel like we've had this discussion before ) - the sales pitch for Brexit wasn't based around, 'Yes there'll be a load of new regulations and some industries will suffer and the fishermen will be completely fucked and you might all need to start eating langoustines and mackerel whilst also creating a UK market for these out of thin air'.

In the medium to long term yes, it's arguably not a bad idea to produce and eat more of our own food, but there was never anything stopping this from happening before Brexit however changing eating habits is a slow process and Brits have simply never shown much appetite for a lot of what we catch.

And businesses are being ruined by Brexit, right now, it's happening. It's not necessarily visible (yet....) to many people because the Tescos and Nissans of this world are large multinational organisations that can take on the extra red tape and costs (although much of it will ultimately be passed to consumers), however many SMEs in the UK are already in dire straits and Brexit isn't even a month old yet.

It's all very well saying that businesses need to change and adapt, but first of all they need to survive, and in many cases that simply isn't going to happen.

On the point you've made several times about businesses should have prepared better, here's a single example (of many!) where the UK government advice was wrong, and errors in the IT systems made it impossible for businesses to prepare properly.



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Didn't mean to go back that and don't disagree at all that people did get unpleasant surprises. Just personally would try to look more future than past as one you can try to affect and other one not. It's shite situation for many, i just hope these people get their issues solved and cope with new situation.

It can be repeated years and i still can agree that things didn't seem to go how some expected but it doesn't help it anymore, doesn't matter how much we all agree so would personally just try to look forward instead past, these things are there now and not gonna go away in month or two.

I know i'm not from UK like most of other posters in this thread (except one Swedish bear) so for me it's for sure much less any emotions for or against, i didn't "win or lose" referendum, i really don't mean to be disrespectful for anyone issues regarding this and i'm really sorry if have been. Just hoping it would be good for all as well that at least it's somehow done now, let's get to next page.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

UK government advises UK businesses to, erm, set up shop in the EU to avoid Brexit red tape.

No, really.

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[bamberfishcake]

UK government advises UK businesses to, erm, set up shop in the EU to avoid Brexit red tape.

No, really.

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Im not surprised at this. The advice has always been to set up shop abroad due to running costs in recent years has it not? Whats the difference here?

The picture of lorries backed up might not be down to Brexit.

Many a business has been moving shop overseas for years. Setting up worldwide supply chains and the certification that goes with is standard practice for UK businesses - nothing new.

Im failing to see any 'news' or anything relevant to Brexit failing?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Did you read the article?

It explains how companies who have traded successfully with the EU for decades are now drowning in red tape, and in some cases are being advised to set up businesses in the EU to enable them to continue trading. This is all new, it's all post-Brexit, it didn't exist before the end of transition.

Also the UK can no longer be used as a 'hub centre' for EU goods, so one company has now moved their 'hub' business to Poland.

UK businesses, UK jobs, moving to the EU as a direct result of Brexit.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Did you read the article?

It explains how companies who have traded successfully with the EU for decades are now drowning in red tape, and in some cases are being advised to set up businesses in the EU to enable them to continue trading. This is all new, it's all post-Brexit, it didn't exist before the end of transition.

Also the UK can no longer be used as a 'hub centre' for EU goods, so one company has now moved their 'hub' business to Poland.

UK businesses, UK jobs, moving to the EU as a direct result of Brexit.

I read all that you posted but didnt click any links or anything.

Not heard about the EU hub centre thing or what legislation is forcing them to move. The bit i read mentions a few businesses and some advice on how to get around the new changes for now.

I must admit i dont know much but the impression i am getting is these are pains for 'some' businesses. Was always going to happen.

Although i dont have a lot of faith in our government i dont think they would cut their noses off and send us down the pan financially.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A withering assessment of the state of Brexit. If anyone has any fact-based counter arguments to this, I'm all ears.

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Ministers like to insist that we’re experiencing nothing worse than “teething problems” as exporters and importers come to terms with the most radical change to the way we have traded with our neighbours since Margaret Thatcher pioneered the creation of the single market more than 30 years ago.

For sure, snafus and bottlenecks at borders caused by faulty documentation may be smoothed out over time as companies become accustomed to dealing with so many complex new procedures. But a lot of these problems are not temporary rites of passage into a brave new world – these are permanent liabilities.

A massive increase in border friction and all the expense that comes with it are baked-in consequences of Mr Johnson’s Brexit. The thicket of bureaucracy imposed on companies means enduring and added costs for their businesses. It does not feel like “teething problems” to them. It is more like root canal surgery performed without any benefit of anaesthetic. This was a predictable – and predicted – result of wrenching the UK out of the single market and the customs union.

Thinktanks, some politicians, some business leaders and some newspapers, including this one, warned about the job-costing and investment-sapping consequences of erecting high new barriers to trade. But it is fair to say that this issue was never front and centre of the arguments that raged about Brexit.

Evangelists for the adventure tended to dismiss the impacts on companies as mere minutiae compared with immigration levels or the meaning of sovereignty. Remainers struggled to find ways to make technical-sounding issues matter to the public. Among many voters and many politicians, the great benefits of being inside the single market were taken for granted right up until the moment when they vanished.

 

[dunover]

Thatcher pioneered the EU single market as we know it - not a single currency or a single parliament.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Hard to present a fact based argument when there are no specific facts or examples of company A has lost X because they were not notified of Y.

I understand it was not for all businesses and there would be disruption to trade. The whole thing is about trade and now we are open and free from the chains that bound us. As a result there will be ongoing changes/disruption to trade.

They will push and pull and so will we. We now have the freedom to do so.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thatcher pioneered the EU single market as we know it - not a single currency or a single parliament.

That's literally exactly what the article said.

And as I'm sure you noticed, we weren't in the single currency and we still had our own parliament, whilst also being an EU member.

Now we're no longer an EU member, we still have our own currency and we still have our own parliament, but we've blown our own feet off when it comes to trade.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hard to present a fact based argument when there are no specific facts or examples of company A has lost X because they were not notified of Y.

I understand it was not for all businesses and there would be disruption to trade. The whole thing is about trade and now we are open and free from the chains that bound us. As a result there will be ongoing changes/disruption to trade.

They will push and pull and so will we. We now have the freedom to do so.

The article cites several examples. There are also some to be found just in the last few pages of this thread.

Out of interest, what were the 'chains that bound us' before? What can we do better now that we couldn't do whilst still an EU member?

All I've seen so far are bad news stories when it comes to businesses and Brexit, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing some good news stories to balance that out.

The best we seem to have managed is the Nissan plant not closing down, but that's been there since 1984 so we can't exactly sell that as a Brexit win.

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[dunover]

That's literally exactly what the article said.

And as I'm sure you noticed, we weren't in the single currency and we still had our own parliament, whilst also being an EU member.

Now we're no longer an EU member, we still have our own currency and we still have our own parliament, but we've blown our own feet off when it comes to trade.

No, we had our own puppet parliament.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Ahhh yes all them EU laws innit, overruling our parliament, all those EU laws that when asked, no one can ever name a single one they didn't like.

We did this nearly two years ago

(Also, the UK government has been very busy doing all sorts of shit under emergency laws during Covid that has managed to evade the scrutiny of parliament entirely, like awarding contracts worth billions to their mates.)

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/brexit-whats-the-difference.86997/page-3#post-1002492

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/brexit-whats-the-difference.86997/page-4#post-1002504

 

[bamberfishcake]

The article cites several examples. There are also some to be found just in the last few pages of this thread.

Out of interest, what were the 'chains that bound us' before? What can we do better now that we couldn't do whilst still an EU member?

All I've seen so far are bad news stories when it comes to businesses and Brexit, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing some good news stories to balance that out.

The best we seem to have managed is the Nissan plant not closing down, but that's been there since 1984 so we can't exactly sell that as a Brexit win.

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The article i read was non specific generalisation.

The chains that bound us before i think were the financial ties to failing economies - bailouts of countries crashing. And the limitations on trade with countries outside the EU compared to members.

Not to mention, although complete speculation on my part, that the EU was never going to be a player in the East V West economic shift. We are better positioned now to trade on a worldwide basis.

Not seen the other articles you mentioned, hence why maybe im so ill informed and could be missing the point.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The article i read was non specific generalisation.

The chains that bound us before i think were the financial ties to failing economies - bailouts of countries crashing. And the limitations on trade with countries outside the EU compared to members.

Not to mention, although complete speculation on my part, that the EU was never going to be a player in the East V West economic shift. We are better positioned now to trade on a worldwide basis.

Not seen the other articles you mentioned, hence why maybe im so ill informed and could be missing the point.

Here's a site that maintains a list of Brexit wins and losses.

There are 4 entries in the 'UPSIDES' column, there are 58 entries in the 'DOWNSIDES' column.

So if you're looking for specific examples, there are 58 on this page alone:

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There's also a thread on Twitter that's being regularly updated.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Had a scan through The Dossier and some of the points (only went through the first 5 or 6) could be argued as favourable for the future.

Its clear we will not agree on the effects of Brexit yet and I guess the best thing is to embrace the change and hope for the best. In a year or two we will be able to see the real effects I guess.

 

[pinnit2014]

Had a scan through The Dossier and some of the points (only went through the first 5 or 6) could be argued as favourable for the future.

Its clear we will not agree on the effects of Brexit yet and I guess the best thing is to embrace the change and hope for the best. In a year or two we will be able to see the real effects I guess.

Bambi:

The fish don't have a few years.