Blatant cheating caught at empire/party poker and they do nothing


Aug 3, 2002
Las Vegas
I was in a multi table tournament at empire poker on wednesday night. When it was down to final table a player and his railbird friend were chatting. The player tells his on looker to stop him before he makes a bad move. I object to this and to floorperson where i sit on hold, imagine someone doing this in real life poker room. They chat back and forth while im on hold about hands and players complain and they just laugh, we get down to 4 players and this happens.

***** Hand History for Game 268241231 *****
150/300 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 1505530) - Thu Dec 04 01:03:33 EST 2003
Table Multi-Table(5707) Table 1 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: wahoosteve (4113)
Seat 2: Pokeraddict1 (5910)
Seat 3: NYC_BEEEEJ (7858)
Seat 4: LLCrewGrr (3589)
Seat 8: visualizing (2665)
Seat 9: huntins (2865)
visualizing posts small blind (75)
huntins posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Pokeraddict1 [ Qc, Jc ]
wahoosteve calls (150)
Pokeraddict1 calls (150)
NYC_BEEEEJ calls (150)
LLCrewGrr folds.
visualizing calls (75)
huntins checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ad, Kc, Tc ]
visualizing checks.
huntins checks.
wahoosteve checks.
Pokeraddict1 bets (150)
NYC_BEEEEJ raises (700) to 700
visualizing folds.
huntins folds.
wahoosteve calls (700)
Pokeraddict1 raises (5610) to 5760

This is the cheating part
Pokeraddict1 calls all-In.
Iveyson: dont call
wahoosteve calls (3263)
wahoosteve calls all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 9c ]
Creating Main Pot with $9376 with wahoosteve
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1797 with Pokeraddict1
** Summary **
Main Pot: 9376 | Side Pot 1: 1797
Board: [ Ad Kc Tc 8d 9c ]
wahoosteve balance 0, lost 4113 [ Ac As ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ac,As,Ad,Kc,Tc ]
Pokeraddict1 balance 11173, bet 5910, collected 11173, net +5263 [ Qc Jc ] [ a straight flush, king high -- Kc,Qc,Jc,Tc,9c ]
NYC_BEEEEJ balance 7008, lost 850 (folded)
LLCrewGrr balance 3589, didn't bet (folded)
visualizing balance 2515, lost 150 (folded)
huntins balance 2715, lost 150 (folded)

If you notice I check raised his friend and suddenly the railbird yells DONT CALL as he lags to act. I had a str8 flush as you can see in hand history next hand he threatens me. This is in hand 268241231 where he tells me "We'll do what we want, I'm your worst night mare *******" probably meaning asshole. Next hand I get knocked out when he calls me on a gutshot to beat my trip 8's. IMPOSSIBLE, especially since he didnt call something he was proud enough to 4 bet b4 flop and think about calling all in hand before. Live help guarantees me prize money for this cheating and says these 2 players will be banned and the cheating player will lose his 1st place and it will be divided among other 3 players. Well 2 more live chats and 4 more emails and nothing is done, they dont even respond to emails. The biggest poker room on earth isnt gonna keep its word? Not gonna stand up to its reputation of promising fair poker games? Anyone with party, empire, or any other affiliate can see that hand # and read chat for themself. Anyone have ideas on how to get party to keep their word? I'm out of ideas since they ignore my emails. Its one thing if this was random but their rep saw it was obvious the player asked this railbird in chat for his help making this collusion.
pokeraddict, send me details to - I don't promise I can get anything done but I should at least be able to get an answer.

In any case, that onlooker should have immediately been kicked from the table/room. But there is no way he could have known you had a straight flush, I presume your cards could only have been known to you.

Under those circumstances, it's not cheating. It is bullshit, however.

That's my early reading.

Make sure you include all the transcripts and the emails if possible. The more evidence, the better.
pokeraddict : Have not played online poker yet because i was not comfortable about possibility of cheating.

I did not realize that Non Players can look in and watch a game And that these onlookers can see all the players cards as dealt? Is that true?

How where the railbird and the player communicating? (in some obvious way that you could see/hear it i guess?)

Or were there two players colluding?
I'm not saying he could see my cards, he only was giving advice to his friend like he was asked to do in open chat. I dont have the transcript of the chat with empire(stupid me) when they promised me a solution. I assumed it would be done. Their support has been great in the past. I have complained once before about a similar incident and ive reported disconnection cheating and collusion and gotten timely responses. Spearmaster I will email you the second hand # i have. I know support could easily see all the chat with the click of a button to see how bad this table talk was. You would think in a big $$ multi they would have an employee witness the final table. If you notice I flopped nut straight and had nuts as long as board didnt pair cause i had nut flush draw too. After the other player called all in i rivered straight flush, he flopped pocket aces into a set. BAD LUCK
Is there a rule against this kind of commenting? I agree with Spear that it is b.s., but don't think it can be called cheating. I've played in a bunch of tournaments where you have 2 or 3 railbirds yelling 'ALL IN!' at the last 2 or 3 players on pretty much every hand. To me that's the same kind of thing. B.S. to be sure, but not cheating or collusion. Should that type of thing be an offense worthy of banning someone? (I finally told one of them to f*** off, and to my surprise, he shut up!)
Maybe they should change the program so that only the people sitting at the table in a tournament can comment in chat. Or maybe filter is so those sitting at the table only see the chat from others at the table. Then the railbirds can yell all they want and not disturb the players. That would be a better way to do it I think.
When i went to log in to get the full hand histories for spear i saw they have put $127, half the difference between me and the next place in my account as a promo. As for this not being cheating this wasnt a random on looker. This player and the railbird chatted non stop at final table and the player asked for him to help him. Empire never sent ma an email but I guess this is their solution. A fair compromise I guess but an email stating their position would have been nice.
Yeah, they definately should have said something. At least they finally came thru with the prize $$ for you.

The rule of poker "is one player to a hand".
With the railbird guiding the player is definitely collusion, anyway you slice it! I play at Party Poker and I will be bringing this up to them. I am glad that the two players were banned, as they should be.

I still don't understand how it can be collusion or cheating if only one player was playing at the table and the other just says 'don't call'. Its not like he could be standing behind you to see your str8 draw and give this guy advice like if it were a live game. And since he's not at the table, I don't see the collusion aspect of it either.

Maybe one of you can enlighten me on this one.
Tournament play is very different from a ring game (a set amount of players playing a single table game). When you are at the final table of a tourney, your chip stack is just as important as the cards in your hand. Many strategy plays are done at the end of a tourney. I know players that will toss premium hands, if they are the chip leader and literally wait for each player to knock themselves out. What I think may have happened was that the railbird realized that if his friend called and lost the hand, his stack would be crippled and thats why he did say "dont call". Thats what makes it collusion. As I stated previously, the main rule of poker is "one player to a hand".

The railbird should immediately have been removed from the room. Not exactly collusion, not exactly cheating - but Linda has already pointed out the reasons why this type of thing should never happen, or be allowed to happen.

Even when at a normal poker table in a normal poker room, a second person is not allowed to consult or give advice on a hand. In tournaments this is especially critical - I am amazed that PP did not take any action - and frankly the smart thing is to prohibit all onlookers except the floorperson at the final table, with results being "broadcast" to a central lounge or lobby (in essence onlookers can follow the state of the game or the chat amongst players but cannot post).
I was told in live chat these players would be banned but after all the emails and live chats and no response I dont know what they did. I sent another one today to confirm what the solution was. I agree this is grey area but they need to do something. The player asked for help in earlier hand, the railbird had no business to give advice. I hope empire emails me at least with an explanation to their solution. I 100% agree that at tourney tables railbird should not have chat privilges. I was on hold with floorperson while they talked hoping to get him kicked before this happened. I'm a bit surprised they dont monitor final tables. I play in these tourneys all day every day and once every day or two go to final table and never saw this before even though i have to think people get on chat programs and discuss. But out in the open just shows a lack of respect to party/empire by the 2 players that I would think party would take offense too. Maybe they are just too big now.
Thanks Linda,

I agree with Spear, not exactly cheating or collusion, but definately b.s. I've played in online tournaments and been one of the final 2 or 3 and had ringbirds screaming ALL-IN on every hand. It was very irritating and I just turned off the chat all together so I wouldn't have to 'listen' to it anymore. I wished there was a moderator or someone there to toss them out or at least disconnect them so they'd shut up. Still can't see it as collusion though, since the railbird giving the advice didn't have any obvious stake in the game or cards on the table.

Pokeraddict, have you mentioned to PP the idea of filtering the chat in tournaments to just the people at the table? I'm thinking that since you play there quite a bit, your opinion may have more weight.
You could be in your home playing with 17 friends sitting at your computer with you giving you their advice. What,s the difference? Nobody can control the outcome of the where,s the cheating? I could understand your point in a land-based casino... but the internet...nah!
I think the player at the final table actually asked his railbird friend for help and thats where the problem comes in. If the player was taking his friends advice on how to play, then it is wrong.
that's not cheaing but this is. 2 players at the table could be on the phone with each other telling each other their hands to sucker in other players.
Tim, this may be so - and as I pointed out earlier I would hardly call it cheating or collusion - but these distractions are not allowed in normal poker tourneys or even normal poker play - and they should not be allowed online either.
I will agree with you on that Spear. The software should block any communication between the players and the observers.

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