Bonus Complaint Betfred Not Paying £7.5k Win Due to Single Mistaken Bet

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seems strange to me though tbh, betfred have always bent over backwards to help me whenever iv made a mistake or even had a problem in shop the casino department has sorted it brilliantly, for me in my experiance their online support and ability to make decisions and sort problems out on the spot are second to none the key point im taking from all this is that you didnt go onto live chat as soon as it happened regardless of whether your an AP or newbie etc etc if you had done this small thing it would have been different i reckon, as you didnt they can only be expected to think the worst....my 2 pennath
 
Now you're comparing "accidental" max bet spins (which it appears it WASN'T hence you were wrong) with typos in a forum post? Really?? Really???

See, this is the point where you could show everyone some humility and show that you actually listen and appreciate the points made by others, and admit errors. Instead, you push the argument off on another tangent hoping to get something right that way. Trouble is, these tangents are so way off and irrelevant they come across as desperate.

The only "assumption" I made is that the player MIGHT (notice that word) have been employing advantage play tactics by reducing lines and increasing bet per line. I based this assessment (not an assumption as I didn't state that it WAS that way just that it MIGHT be) on the odd bet amount that AFAIK can't be achieved by pressing "max bet", but rather only by having the lines already decreased and hitting the space bar (later confirmed by OP).

Its a long long way from launching into a multi-paragraph rant about how the OP was an innocent victim of the "deliberate max bet button placement conspiracy" involving all casino software providers working together to rob players of their winnings. Its especially way off considering the OP didn't actually hit max bet in the first place.

In other words, you're only focused on what (you think) the casino has done to allow a situation to occur, rather than all the information provided. I could see, and have seen, your detection and reasoning skills used in an impartial way producing some highly accurate, logical and informative posts. Unfortunately, all I see these days is you resorting to ridiculous and ill-considered "expose's" that almost exclusively involves ragging on operators for the tiniest and most irrelevant and unreasonable things, rather than accepting and acknowledging both that there are two sides to a coin, and that others do make valid points that often contradict your own.

I used to read every word of yours for years vinyl. I admired your objectivity and your "each case on its merits" attitude. Now, its just like reading any old "casinos are evil" poster. Its a damn shame.

Anyway, I'm not going to say any more on this from now on, as I don't want to be accused of personal agendas etc.

They are VERY similar, both involving the hitting of the wrong key. It is only the consequences that differ. It's a tiny mistake with consequences out of all proportion being imposed, just like the £150 fine for getting back to your parked car a minute late.

I have OFTEN done "max bet" by mistake. I have also hit the "lo" button on a fruit machine instead of "high", or instead of "collect". I just lose that bet, I don't have my pockets emptied by the arcade owner.

The software interface does not form spontaneously, it is by DESIGN, and it is by DESIGN that "max bet" is placed right next to the "spin" button. Somebody asked that the button be placed there, and that someone had a vested interest in making it so easy to hit.

The design came before bonus rules, so the original idea was not to be able to void winnings, but get players making bigger bets. A responsible gambling approach to design would have lead to safeguards being in place to prevent the accidental huge bet. Some softwares did have such safeguards, I recall one that had an "are you sure" pop up when trying to hit a 17 at Blackjack. By default this was switched on, and the player had to change it to be off if they felt happy to make their own decisions about hitting a 17.

The consequences used to just be that a player would lose much more on a single bet than they had intended, so damage was limited. We now have a situation where the damage of just ONE keyboard or mouse fumble can have almost unlimited consequences, so we are at a stage where the design status quo is no longer acceptable.

The easiest solution would be an "are you sure" guard on the max bet button, thus letting the player know they are about to bet much more if they confirm "yes".

There are actually loads of business conspiracies around. Some get busted, and some VERY serious ones have been uncovered after decades of abuse, such as the run of banking scandals that risked the collapse of economies since 2008, with new scandals still being uncovered.

Businesses are here to part consumers from their money, they are not here to play fair and make less money than they could by being a bit "grubby".

The labyrinth of companies one sees with the average online casino is designed to hide stuff, as well as provide a means of passing the buck. In this case, it would be "not our fault, this is how the software comes". Unlike most software we use, the casino client is designed for the operator, not the user, which is why there are so many complaints that are just ignored by the developers. They won't fix a problem that doesn't affect the amount of money the operator makes, and they certainly won't fix a problem that is of benefit to the operator.

In this sense, ALL casinos are "rogue", but so is Tesco, and our energy and broadband supplier. Customers are not people, they are just numbers on a computer, "units" that generate income and profit for the company. Treating customers like people is more expensive in the short term, and business rarely worries about the long term consequences of a policy until it starts to choke off their turnover.
 
Ok I am making this all up. :thumbsup:

Wow, only came on here to ask peoples opinion, didn't think I'd get called a bullshitter.

Look, you have just stated TWICE in the post I quoted 'no-one asked'.......

I have picked 2 posts which demonstrate people DID ask.

I can provide more links to where you were asked questions similar in content.

What do you expect? Maybe you don't bother reading through the posts in detail from those not sharing your opinions.

Anyway, I am curtailing my contribution to this pointless thread. You broke the terms. You are getting your money back. You are no worse off. Maybe a salutary experience for you, I hope so. Let us know the outcome of your legal action...........;)
 
You could try doing a PAB - although Max probably won't take it because it's pretty clear that you broke a term and you have no case.

Or you can also lodge a complaint with the regulator here:
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TBH I think you're wasting your time with it though.
 
They are VERY similar, both involving the hitting of the wrong key. It is only the consequences that differ. It's a tiny mistake with consequences out of all proportion being imposed, just like the £150 fine for getting back to your parked car a minute late.

I have OFTEN done "max bet" by mistake. I have also hit the "lo" button on a fruit machine instead of "high", or instead of "collect". I just lose that bet, I don't have my pockets emptied by the arcade owner.

The software interface does not form spontaneously, it is by DESIGN, and it is by DESIGN that "max bet" is placed right next to the "spin" button. Somebody asked that the button be placed there, and that someone had a vested interest in making it so easy to hit.

The design came before bonus rules, so the original idea was not to be able to void winnings, but get players making bigger bets. A responsible gambling approach to design would have lead to safeguards being in place to prevent the accidental huge bet. Some softwares did have such safeguards, I recall one that had an "are you sure" pop up when trying to hit a 17 at Blackjack. By default this was switched on, and the player had to change it to be off if they felt happy to make their own decisions about hitting a 17.

The consequences used to just be that a player would lose much more on a single bet than they had intended, so damage was limited. We now have a situation where the damage of just ONE keyboard or mouse fumble can have almost unlimited consequences, so we are at a stage where the design status quo is no longer acceptable.

The easiest solution would be an "are you sure" guard on the max bet button, thus letting the player know they are about to bet much more if they confirm "yes".

There are actually loads of business conspiracies around. Some get busted, and some VERY serious ones have been uncovered after decades of abuse, such as the run of banking scandals that risked the collapse of economies since 2008, with new scandals still being uncovered.

Businesses are here to part consumers from their money, they are not here to play fair and make less money than they could by being a bit "grubby".

The labyrinth of companies one sees with the average online casino is designed to hide stuff, as well as provide a means of passing the buck. In this case, it would be "not our fault, this is how the software comes". Unlike most software we use, the casino client is designed for the operator, not the user, which is why there are so many complaints that are just ignored by the developers. They won't fix a problem that doesn't affect the amount of money the operator makes, and they certainly won't fix a problem that is of benefit to the operator.

In this sense, ALL casinos are "rogue", but so is Tesco, and our energy and broadband supplier. Customers are not people, they are just numbers on a computer, "units" that generate income and profit for the company. Treating customers like people is more expensive in the short term, and business rarely worries about the long term consequences of a policy until it starts to choke off their turnover.

Apart from the first sentence or two, your post is almost completely irrelevant to the topic. Its just another soapbox rant about how "despicable" and "rogue" ALL (YOU said this) online casinos are.

And yet....you continue to support these "rogues", such as 32Red et al, and take every opportunity (or create every opportunity) to brag about your "amazing" wins.

Hypocrisy of the highest order IMO, and thanked, as expected, by the same band of card-carrying members of the "Casinos Are Evil and Rogue but I'll support them all by continuing to play" Club.

I can count on one hand how many times I've hit max bet accidentally in my time, and I imagine most players who are careful would be the same. Why on earth would every casino insist on a complete redesign to move the max bet button based on a problem so comparatively minor? And where would they put it? Its always going to be "near" something for goodness sake. Its ridiculous.

I usually classify how major a problem is by the number of complaint threads or airtime it generates in the forum over time, and it is usually pretty accurate. I can't remember any threads regarding "hitting max bet cost me $xxxx or whatever" etc. Just to remind...this thread is NOT about max bet accidents....its only because you jumped the gun again and stated that it WAS when it clearly wasn't...and the club members take it as fact.

I just wish some people would think for themselves instead of instantly believing anything and everything that makes the casino at fault.
 
Ok I am making this all up. :thumbsup:

Wow, only came on here to ask peoples opinion, didn't think I'd get called a bullshitter.

I empathise with your situation and I am sure that you have better things to do with your time than create a bs scenario in a forum just to be provocative :p.

Quite clearly it was an error as it was only one spin, I do think it very tough - and considering BF do not always get it right, I think their rigidness is unreasonable (yes Aaron, do not force me to publish BF's own error on my account, maybe I can claim 2x the payout due to BF's error).

Yes rules are rules but there are exceptions and sometimes the circumstances warrant the bending of them...in my opinion this is one of those occasions.
 
and they would have done had he realised his error and spoke to them imediatly im positive on that as they have done far more for me like i said before though the fact he didnt and waited till he had won means they can only see it for the worst case scenario not that im trying to lick BF's ehind etc but from my experiance they bend over backwards to help you and be unrigid aslong as you are straight with them from the moment a mistake is realised....
 
A couple of weeks ago there was a program on TV stating that alot of Terms and Conditions on websites are unfair and wouldn't be worth nothing in the court of law.

If I had lost £7500 I would most definitely take them to a small claims court with the argument I shouldn't of been ably to bet more than the TOS says so easily and I would get my solicitor to show them how easy it is to make a mistake and how often when you first go on a machine you have never been on before the "ready selected stake" is often more than the max stake that can be played.

Well I think even if cheekydancer is an AP then its betfred's fault for allowing a larger bet to be placed accident or not. I think the same for any casino, if the max you can play is say 50p then you shouldn't be ably to wager more, not my problem if the developers haven't implemented it into the software or the feature hasn't been enabled.

Out of principle I would take the £1000 deposit back and use it to help taking them to court.



Sharon :D
 
Cause they should excuse a customer for doing a single honest mistake if that is the case. It will set a precedent yes, for being a company that manages to think a bit out of the box instead of confiscating money over a low shoe for mistakes which they can prevent if they spend a bit of resources on it.

In the same manner i would be able to excuse the casino if their servers or so crashed, delaying their payouts for a day or two. I wouldn't demand them to be rogued cause of that.

Reminds me of a airplane company here, refusing a passenger water or food for a 12 hour flight, as her credit card didnt work abroad, and they didnt take cash. I guess it was mentioned in their terms, but thankfully after some media coverage, they changed their terms.

Even assuming the casino is willing to make an exception for accidental bets how 'accidental' was it. If the amount was 110 it takes 3 clicks for a 25-line slot and that is definitely not accidental unless you have trembling hands.

Maybe I missed it but I would definitely want to know whether this slot is a 20,30 or 25 liner and how many lines were bet on. This goes a long way in determining whether or not its accidental. If it wasn't accidental the OP can forget about the money. On the other hand even it it might be accidental the casino is within its rights not to pay out though there would be more sympathy for the player.
 
Even assuming the casino is willing to make an exception for accidental bets how 'accidental' was it. If the amount was 110 it takes 3 clicks for a 25-line slot and that is definitely not accidental unless you have trembling hands.

I don't understand the need for technicalities (granted I am not a huge participant in these forums) - clearly cheekydancer respects the knowledge base of the forum participants so who cares how many lines it was, she was adamant it was one spin that exceeded the 20% rule. I got the impression the 110 was a number only as she was adjusting her bet at the time and did not think she had pressed the bet button.
 
Even assuming the casino is willing to make an exception for accidental bets how 'accidental' was it. If the amount was 110 it takes 3 clicks for a 25-line slot and that is definitely not accidental unless you have trembling hands.

I think most of you did not get what the OP was saying.

They just changed the coin size from (I believe) 0.25£ to 0.5£ which gave the max bet 125£. They were about to adjust the bet per line option to have a bet 100£ (or less) when they (probably) accidentally hit the space bar which made a max bet spin (125£) as no adjustment was done.

So not the number of lines had been modified as some of the members were suggesting.

There is no AP who do only 1 spin overbetting and Bertfred knows that!
 
I think most of you did not get what the OP was saying.

They just changed the coin size from (I believe) 0.25£ to 0.5£ which gave the max bet 125£. They were about to adjust the bet per line option to have a bet 100£ (or less) when they (probably) accidentally hit the space bar which made a max bet spin (125£) as no adjustment was done.

So not the number of lines had been modified as some of the members were suggesting.

There is no AP who do only 1 spin overbetting and Bertfred knows that!

I think its you that isn't getting it at this point.

The spin was $110 or $120 the OP hasn't confirmed. Either way, according to them, there was NO max bet made.

Either way, the rules were broken.
 
I think its you that isn't getting it at this point.

The spin was $110 or $120 the OP hasn't confirmed. Either way, according to them, there was NO max bet made.

OP's answer on that:

3. Why has the story changed (when ChuChu and others pointed out that a 110 bet is a very odd amount) from being a 110 bet to "maybe be it was 120 I'm not sure"?
As I said, I was mistaken. It was around 110-120. Whatever bet Bonus Bears could produce. Think it might have been 112.50. I didn't login and find out the exact amount as I didn't think the exact amount was that relevant.

And this:

Actually is wasn't £110.. It may have been £120, I'll have to check. I increased the coin value and was in the process of reducing the amount of coins when it spun.

So I think it was a max bet as I explained earlier. If you have playtech casino installed try to do it in Fun mode and you will see.

I can side with Betfred if the answer to my question is yes (any AP who does only 1 spin overbetting, which produces 0 win).
 
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OP answer on that:

3. Why has the story changed (when ChuChu and others pointed out that a 110 bet is a very odd amount) from being a 110 bet to "maybe be it was 120 I'm not sure"?
As I said, I was mistaken. It was around 110-120. Whatever bet Bonus Bears could produce. Think it might have been 112.50. I didn't login and find out the exact amount as I didn't think the exact amount was that relevant.

And this:

Actually is wasn't £110.. It may have been £120, I'll have to check. I increased the coin value and was in the process of reducing the amount of coins when it spun.

So I think it was a max bet as I explained earlier. If you have playtech casino installed try to do it in Fun mode and you will see.

I can side with Betfred if the answer to my question is yes (any AP who does only 1 spin overbetting, which produces 0 win).

Well one can only go by what the OP says, and they can't be arsed to confirm anything, so until they do I will stick with what I first said based on "110 or 120"

In any case, it is irrelevant as the rules doesn't state "except for if you accidentally hit max bet". Its up to the player to be careful when taking bonus that they stick to the rules. Its OK for everyone else, then its OK for them.

I don't buy the "innocent newbie" line. It's BS.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
 
A couple of weeks ago there was a program on TV stating that alot of Terms and Conditions on websites are unfair and wouldn't be worth nothing in the court of law.

If I had lost £7500 I would most definitely take them to a small claims court with the argument I shouldn't of been ably to bet more than the TOS says so easily and I would get my solicitor to show them how easy it is to make a mistake and how often when you first go on a machine you have never been on before the "ready selected stake" is often more than the max stake that can be played.

Well I think even if cheekydancer is an AP then its betfred's fault for allowing a larger bet to be placed accident or not. I think the same for any casino, if the max you can play is say 50p then you shouldn't be ably to wager more, not my problem if the developers haven't implemented it into the software or the feature hasn't been enabled.

Out of principle I would take the £1000 deposit back and use it to help taking them to court.

Sharon :D

Oh please! We are talking consumer selling sites for goods and services NOT gaming that were on TV.

So it's Betfreds fault she pressed the wrong button(s)?

Perhaps if she spilled her coffee while celebrating a good win spin, she could sue Betfred for her laundry costs or damage to her PC?

And your last sentence is plain ridiculous - how on earth are 'developers going to implement play limits into their software'??
The slot does NOT know if it's cash or bonus funds being played does it? The site cannot change the parameters of slots daily to suit different bonuses.

I think there is this culture nowadays of people expecting to be nannied in everything they do, taking responsibility for nothing and always having someone else to blame or cough up if something goes wrong.

Oh, and lastly she should put the 1K towards a good holiday which she apparently wants rather than be encouraged by barrack-room lawyers to embark on a costly and ultimately futile court case.
 
Oh please! We are talking consumer selling sites for goods and services NOT gaming that were on TV.

It was about Terms and conditions in general, the progam didn't say "this program is only about goods bought and not gaming."

So it's Betfreds fault she pressed the wrong button(s)?
I said "if you had read", I think it's betfred's fault for allowing a larger bet to be placed accident or not.

Perhaps if she spilled her coffee while celebrating a good win spin, she could sue Betfred for her laundry costs or damage to her PC?
Now you are being daft, thats not something that can be controlled by the website.

And your last sentence is plain ridiculous - how on earth are 'developers going to implement play limits into their software'??
The slot does NOT know if it's cash or bonus funds being played does it? The site cannot change the parameters of slots daily to suit different bonuses.
It's quite easy for it to be implimented into the software/slot/game for the PHP to read a field in the MySql table to see if the person is playing with a bonus or not and what the max stake should be.



I think there is this culture nowadays of people expecting to be nannied in everything they do, taking responsibility for nothing and always having someone else to blame or cough up if something goes wrong.
You are very wrong, this has nothing to do with a nannied state, this is just something to stop a simple accident happening and a player losing out because of it.

Oh, and lastly she should put the 1K towards a good holiday which she apparently wants rather than be encouraged by barrack-room lawyers to embark on a costly and ultimately futile court case
That is up the the op, i'm only stating what I would be tempted to do
.

Sharon :D
 
I can see the idea of an "are you sure?" message when hitting max bet going down like a lead balloon with most people.

I really can't fathom this bit out - why would anybody have an issue if the software gave a warning just the first time you press 'max bet' when that single press is increasing your bet as well as doing the spin? Personally I think it is ridiculous having a second "spin" button that has this additional "feature" attached - why not just have the button to SET your bet amount before pressing spin/auto play as normal? There's no question in my mind that it works the way it does to gain some extra profits via accidental presses, though I expect the bonus t&c problem came along quite late in the day, it was almost certainly designed with the intention of milking 10x the intended bet amount from unlucky punters.. but let's be fair here, I am sure I am not the only one who has occasionally made this mistake, but had it land me with a major win, so it's not ENTIRELY useless ! ;)

It is true that it would be very simple for the software providers (eg microgaming) to create a solution to prevent betting over allowed t&c amounts for a bonus, however there is very little reason for them to do so at present, and individual operators(eg 32red) do NOT have the option of implementing something like this, so unfortunately I think we are stuck with this issue right now. I do genuinely feel for the OP but like others have said, feel you really should have spent a few moments contacting live chat immediately seeing as you aware of the term you had just broken. I made this mistake myself when I joined 32red a couple of months back and made a few blackjack bets of 3-5x£6 per hand before I wondered, oh, I wonder if the £6.25 limit applies to each of my hands, or per dealers hand... after checking the t&c and realising I had messed up, I contacted support and they told me not to worry and I could just continue playing - they made a note that I had contacted them and they had advised me further violations would invoke the additional wagering requirements in the t&c, and sure enough when I came to cash out there was no problems whatsoever.

As they are returning your deposit, I think perhaps you should just have another try - you obviously have balls of steel to be spinning slots at the £100/spin kind of level(!?!?, makes my eyes water just thinking about it...), best of luck to you, I hope you manage to hit something amazing that will make them wish they just paid you the £7.5k :) .. you only need a steady 100x bet win to succeed, it's definitely possible matey!
 
Well one can only go by what the OP says, and they can't be arsed to confirm anything, so until they do I will stick with what I first said based on "110 or 120"

In any case, it is irrelevant as the rules doesn't state "except for if you accidentally hit max bet". Its up to the player to be careful when taking bonus that they stick to the rules. Its OK for everyone else, then its OK for them.

I don't buy the "innocent newbie" line. It's BS.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


Absolutely, undeniably and irrefutably so.
 
Well one can only go by what the OP says, and they can't be arsed to confirm anything, so until they do I will stick with what I first said based on "110 or 120"

In any case, it is irrelevant as the rules doesn't state "except for if you accidentally hit max bet". Its up to the player to be careful when taking bonus that they stick to the rules. Its OK for everyone else, then its OK for them.

I don't buy the "innocent newbie" line. It's BS.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Offtopic]

Being careful isn't always enough. I got used to press space bar to make a bet, I don't remember was it on 3Dice. So, I did the same thing on 32Red and noticed that instead of a normal bet, it made a max bet. I searched the game rules and didn't find anything mentioning that. I asked live chat to refund my bet, but they claimed that this is mentioned in the game rules. When I asked where exactly, the CS searched about 30 minutes and told me he couldn't find anything and then decided to refund my bet.

[/Offtopic]
 
Even assuming the casino is willing to make an exception for accidental bets how 'accidental' was it. If the amount was 110 it takes 3 clicks for a 25-line slot and that is definitely not accidental unless you have trembling hands.

Maybe I missed it but I would definitely want to know whether this slot is a 20,30 or 25 liner and how many lines were bet on. This goes a long way in determining whether or not its accidental. If it wasn't accidental the OP can forget about the money. On the other hand even it it might be accidental the casino is within its rights not to pay out though there would be more sympathy for the player.

Well yes she might have had to adjust the bet cause of changing coin size, but if a single space bar click can cause it, its still sad by Betfred. Not that they lost anything from it either. The punishment doesent fix the crime here, its like the police giving a person a 7500$ ticket for driving 1 mph over the speed limit.
 
Yes you are right, there's always one that won't follow the herd :D


Shaz ;)

Yes, I've seen the wildlife programmes. The one that gets picked off and eaten alive.........:D
 
I think the "punishment" is very unreasonable and wrong. The player didn't gain any advantage for her/his mistake (but Betfred did). With such amount of rules there's always some players that accidentally break them even if it wasn't their intention. If Betfred can't force the rules technically (e.g. bet limit), they should be more forgiving and understanding. Humans make errors.
 
Well yes she might have had to adjust the bet cause of changing coin size, but if a single space bar click can cause it, its still sad by Betfred. Not that they lost anything from it either. The punishment doesent fix the crime here, its like the police giving a person a 7500$ ticket for driving 1 mph over the speed limit.

What is this talk of 'punishment'??
It's not punitive at all, merely a black-and-white enforcement of terms the OP AGREED TO when signing up and depositing.

Just to remind folks these casinos are BUSINESSES designed to make a profit, not charities. The OP could have and should have stopped play immediately, as the player in the 32red example did when they realized their error. 32red gave them the benefit of the doubt when they contacted live chat, and the only 'punishment' 32red gave was to add a bit more to the WR.

Now, it's possible that BF may have said 'no way, Jose!' in which case the OP could have stopped there and then, BEFORE doing all the play which made the 6.5k gain, and taken their deposit. We'll never know now whether BF would have been that amenable or not. That fact is down to the OP and nobody else.

The OP's whole philosophy seems to be to extract sympathy, because there is little else she can gain from all this. Unfortunately 'sympathy' is not mentioned in the terms and conditions as a factor upon which BF's business is based.

Now had she been an existing player, whom BF knew, and didn't have the play pattern of an AP then BF MAY have made an ad-hoc decision in her favour based on her previous account action - but this is entirely DISCRETIONAL and not mandatory.
 
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