Ask me anything (about slots)!

[BlaCGaming]

My take on the missing games query below....

Thanks Cap, that makes a lot of sense.

On another note, I recently noticed something strange about 300 shields, I think it was on Wild Slots (could be wrong though).

They got the game twice. If you search for it you will see one from Nyx, the other one from MG (its the same game though, apart from the performance being better on the MG one). I assume this is not intended?

 

[Captain Rizk]

Thanks Cap, that makes a lot of sense.

On another note, I recently noticed something strange about 300 shields, I think it was on Wild Slots (could be wrong though).

They got the game twice. If you search for it you will see one from Nyx, the other one from MG (its the same game though, apart from the performance being better on the MG one). I assume this is not intended?

That is really poor casino management imo.

300 Shields is by Nexgen gaming (iirc) who used to be an independent game provider. They had a relationship with both Nyx and Microgaming who they supplied their games to and then both Nyx and MG shoved these onto their customer base with a slight uplift in price so that they could take a cut for opening their customers up to Nexgen. therefore if you are integrated with both Nyx and Microgaming then you could get the same game twice and depending on which one the customer played then the casino will have been charged for that gameplay by either Nyx or MG

Nyx then bought Nexgen a few years ago so i can guarantee that the casino would be paying more for players to play the version provided by MG than the one that Nyx offered even though it is exactly the same game......

 

[Jono777]

Quick Input in addition to a very small part of Harry's latest query/post.

Whether by design (or not ) I can attest to the 2-scatter thing prior to approaching a bust out.

In fact I sit here and say it out loud to the missues most sessions, to the point where I know she is thinking "He's as predictable as the last few spins on a slot" ( )

Not just talking from a few thousand spins here either, In 14 years I'd be confident that I've noticed many patterns (not suggesting any are dodgy or untoward) both winning and losing patterns.

Few quick examples: -

The diamonds on Raging Rhino 8/10 become increasingly present in 2's last 10-15 spins of balance.

A DOA session where you get one of those days where the scatter only seems to show on reel one only (This happens a LOT) all of a sudden you manage (7/10) 4-5 teasers spins from your last 20-25 spins at least.

MG 243- Ways (IR, TSII, JP, PB etc) will 9/10 drop teasers close together as balance dwindles to last few ££/$$ etc.

and not to expand too much but Novomatics Jerk something terrible to depict a forthcoming winning spin, the 'jerk' is twice as bad when the server result needs to display scatters in view, even if its only 1!

I'll stop now but this list could go on until my fingers drop off.

As I say I would not play a single spin if I thought anything was amiss but I do believe that an online form / version of compensation as well as cycles and patterns exist and always will do!

Thanks for reading whether others agree of not, I'm sure with the volume of spins I've done over the years you'll understand where I am coming from.

 

[Deeplay]

Quber - you're answers for 1 and 2 are spot on...

Re: Avalanches... again, many different ways of doing these. Most common would be that when you press spin, the server sends the outcome of the first "spin" along with all the avalanches after it.

With regards to reel strips in general why does it matter if you have supposedly 100 or 1 of any symbol on any reel. Because what we see is just eye candy. The program determines win / loose / feature or what ever
and then this is represented on the players screen. Or is the RTP / Payouts program directly intergrated and linked with how many of each symbol you have on any 1 reel ? I would image the reel strips/symbols (eye candy) just hold different numerical values

But its the computer program that determines the outcome in a random environment so it would not matter whats on the reels. Unless it is linked directly ?

hope the question is clear

and thanks for all the great answers you have given so far. I think my tin foil hat is forever retired ...

 

[BeardyGuts]

That is really poor casino management imo.

300 Shields is by Nexgen gaming (iirc) who used to be an independent game provider. They had a relationship with both Nyx and Microgaming who they supplied their games to and then both Nyx and MG shoved these onto their customer base with a slight uplift in price so that they could take a cut for opening their customers up to Nexgen. therefore if you are integrated with both Nyx and Microgaming then you could get the same game twice and depending on which one the customer played then the casino will have been charged for that gameplay by either Nyx or MG

Nyx then bought Nexgen a few years ago so i can guarantee that the casino would be paying more for players to play the version provided by MG than the one that Nyx offered even though it is exactly the same game......

Hi Captain,
Are the casino themselves ever involved in the development of games? for example to provide there input into what they want or what makes the most money?
For example i guess DOA must be a gold mine for casinos, so can you get involved with the developers so they make similar type games? Maybe Netent are more expensive than QuickSpin for example so you could get QS to make a DOA clone?

Or is it simply a case of you get a portfolio to pick from and that's it?

 

[trancemonkey]

Quick Input in addition to a very small part of Harry's latest query/post.

Whether by design (or not ) I can attest to the 2-scatter thing prior to approaching a bust out.

In fact I sit here and say it out loud to the missues most sessions, to the point where I know she is thinking "He's as predictable as the last few spins on a slot" ( )

Not just talking from a few thousand spins here either, In 14 years I'd be confident that I've noticed many patterns (not suggesting any are dodgy or untoward) both winning and losing patterns.

Few quick examples: -

The diamonds on Raging Rhino 8/10 become increasingly present in 2's last 10-15 spins of balance.

A DOA session where you get one of those days where the scatter only seems to show on reel one only (This happens a LOT) all of a sudden you manage (7/10) 4-5 teasers spins from your last 20-25 spins at least.

MG 243- Ways (IR, TSII, JP, PB etc) will 9/10 drop teasers close together as balance dwindles to last few ££/$$ etc.

and not to expand too much but Novomatics Jerk something terrible to depict a forthcoming winning spin, the 'jerk' is twice as bad when the server result needs to display scatters in view, even if its only 1!

I'll stop now but this list could go on until my fingers drop off.

As I say I would not play a single spin if I thought anything was amiss but I do believe that an online form / version of compensation as well as cycles and patterns exist and always will do!

They don't - i don't think you understand just how complex it would actually be to do this. The only SIMPLE way would be to specifically replace a losing spin with another losing spin made up of a 2-scatter trigger... and if this has ever happened i would be amazed

Thanks for reading whether others agree of not, I'm sure with the volume of spins I've done over the years you'll understand where I am coming from.

I know this is getting repetitive now, and you don't believe me, but this just doesn't happen.

I wish you could play 1 million sessions. Start each session with a £100 balance. Record EVERY time you get a 2-scatter trigger what your balance is on.
If you could do that, and it shows that a 2-scatter trigger happens statistically more often in the last ten games than at ANY OTHER time, then i might start believing you that i put things in to my games not even i'm aware of... (and that companies like WMS would do it, and risk losing the Nevada licence, which would ruin SG Games multi-billion dollar business instantly).

Sorry if that appears condescending, but it's a fact that we don't do it. No amount of telling me we do will change the fact we don't.

And (Harry will hate me for this) when your balance is running low, you are psychologically more aware of the outcomes of the games because you want that balance saver. I can guarantee you that no real money game does it.

 

[BeardyGuts]

Quick Input in addition to a very small part of Harry's latest query/post.

Whether by design (or not ) I can attest to the 2-scatter thing prior to approaching a bust out.

In fact I sit here and say it out loud to the missues most sessions, to the point where I know she is thinking "He's as predictable as the last few spins on a slot" ( )

Not just talking from a few thousand spins here either, In 14 years I'd be confident that I've noticed many patterns (not suggesting any are dodgy or untoward) both winning and losing patterns.

Few quick examples: -

The diamonds on Raging Rhino 8/10 become increasingly present in 2's last 10-15 spins of balance.

A DOA session where you get one of those days where the scatter only seems to show on reel one only (This happens a LOT) all of a sudden you manage (7/10) 4-5 teasers spins from your last 20-25 spins at least.

MG 243- Ways (IR, TSII, JP, PB etc) will 9/10 drop teasers close together as balance dwindles to last few ££/$$ etc.

and not to expand too much but Novomatics Jerk something terrible to depict a forthcoming winning spin, the 'jerk' is twice as bad when the server result needs to display scatters in view, even if its only 1!

I'll stop now but this list could go on until my fingers drop off.

As I say I would not play a single spin if I thought anything was amiss but I do believe that an online form / version of compensation as well as cycles and patterns exist and always will do!

Thanks for reading whether others agree of not, I'm sure with the volume of spins I've done over the years you'll understand where I am coming from.

I hope i dont sound an ass... but i always find it strange that someone who is convinced the games/casinos are manipulating results would even bother playing in the first place. Pure and simple the casino has an edge that means it wins overall! it has absolutely no need to do that... i'm sure there are rogue casino examples of it but for a reputable site with a healthy customer base there is exactly zero point in doing it. Ok maybe you will re-deposit if you feel that bonus is a few spins off but in reality dont they have more to lose than gain by making this manipulation?

 

[Jono777]

I know this is getting repetitive now, and you don't believe me, but this just doesn't happen.

And (Harry will hate me for this) when your balance is running low, you are psychologically more aware of the outcomes of the games because you want that balance saver. I can guarantee you that no real money game does it.

I never said that lol, just stating my observations over a lengthy period. In fact I believe you very much so, after all what would be the gain of someone in the industry being open and providing a thread to spout BS, just wouldn't make sense. So yes eternally grateful for all the info and reassurances provided thus far.

I do also have to say that the part I've highlighted blue makes a LOT of sense

 

[Jono777]

I hope i dont sound an ass... but i always find it strange that someone who is convinced the games/casinos are manipulating results would even bother playing in the first place. Pure and simple the casino has an edge that means it wins overall! it has absolutely no need to do that... i'm sure there are rogue casino examples of it but for a reputable site with a healthy customer base there is exactly zero point in doing it. Ok maybe you will re-deposit if you feel that bonus is a few spins off but in reality dont they have more to lose than gain by making this manipulation?

Go and look at my post and this time try reading it please.

I at no point make or made any accusations, I merely posted my OBSERVATIONS.

If I'd maybe being playing since 2016 and knew nothing of the industry then fair enough, these are experienced observations and nothing more.

Anyone is welcome to come to my house, witness a few sessions and you'll be surprised the amount of times I can tell you what the next few spins hold roughly before I make them.

Sounds daft right? - Well It happens once too often to be down to a "Lucky Guess"

Not talking predicting a feature or big hit but a rough idea which is not far off the actual outcome.

Maybe I should start streaming to prove my very difficult to explain via "text talk" point, then again, Maybe I shouldn't

As I say no cloak and dagger, no foil hats, no finger pointing just one hell of a lot of spins over a length time frame. It is human nature to notice these things, whether slot based or on any repetitive task for that matter.

 

[BeardyGuts]

Go and look at my post and this time try reading it please.

I at no point make or made any accusations, I merely posted my OBSERVATIONS.

If I'd maybe being playing since 2016 and knew nothing of the industry then fair enough, these are experienced observations and nothing more.

Anyone is welcome to come to my house, witness a few sessions and you'll be surprised the amount of times I can tell you what the next few spins hold roughly before I make them.

Sounds daft right? - Well It happens once too often to be down to a "Lucky Guess"

Not talking predicting a feature or big hit but a rough idea which is not far off the actual outcome.

Maybe I should start streaming to prove my very difficult to explain via "text talk" point, then again, Maybe I shouldn't

As I say no cloak and dagger, no foil hats, no finger pointing just one hell of a lot of spins over a length time frame. It is human nature to notice these things, whether slot based or on any repetitive task for that matter.

Apologies if i misunderstood your point, i just thought that having these observations means you had a feeling it was 'rigged' although you clearly say otherwise!. Anyway i shouldn't have even said anything dont want to de-rail this awesome thread

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Captain,
Are the casino themselves ever involved in the development of games? for example to provide there input into what they want or what makes the most money?
For example i guess DOA must be a gold mine for casinos, so can you get involved with the developers so they make similar type games? Maybe Netent are more expensive than QuickSpin for example so you could get QS to make a DOA clone?

Or is it simply a case of you get a portfolio to pick from and that's it?

Some casinos are involved yes, but these tend to be casinos that have exclusive games for a period of time and tend to me the much larger online casinos... a few casinos (BGO for example) have their own in-house dev team.

 

[trancemonkey]

With regards to reel strips in general why does it matter if you have supposedly 100 or 1 of any symbol on any reel. Because what we see is just eye candy. The program determines win / loose / feature or what ever
and then this is represented on the players screen. Or is the RTP / Payouts program directly intergrated and linked with how many of each symbol you have on any 1 reel ? I would image the reel strips/symbols (eye candy) just hold different numerical values

But its the computer program that determines the outcome in a random environment so it would not matter whats on the reels. Unless it is linked directly ?

hope the question is clear

and thanks for all the great answers you have given so far. I think my tin foil hat is forever retired ...

I know of a few (mainly old, non-existant games providers) that did this - basically got a result and generated the reels to show it, but this is almost unheard of now (although i imagine some social gaming companies do this because a) they can, and it's legal to rig the reels if they want to and b) because they don't understand the complexities of slot game maths).

If i tried to explain to you the maths on the current game i'm working on, you wouldn't believe how complex it is. I struggle even to explain it to other people i work with - so games can be VERY complicated, but are ALWAYS random. Every result HAS to be possible in every spin of the base game. To describe it in basic terms; we have a set of reel bands (they may be evenly weighted so every position on the reel has the same chance of being picked, or they may not be... we call this weighted or virtual reel bands). Anyway, the RNG returns a position for each reel. The reels spin to this position and the win is determined - so the reel strips are absolutely an integral part of the game design...

 

[Deeplay]

Anyway, the RNG returns a position for each reel. The reels spin to this position and the win is determined - so the reel strips are absolutely an integral part of the game design...

Finally I think im getting it and when you put it like that even in the most simplistic terms I can see now how complex and damn varied any given game can be. So even me with limited brain power get the RNG returning a position for each reel. Great informative reply thanks

 

[Captain Rizk]

Hi Captain,
Are the casino themselves ever involved in the development of games? for example to provide there input into what they want or what makes the most money?
For example i guess DOA must be a gold mine for casinos, so can you get involved with the developers so they make similar type games? Maybe Netent are more expensive than QuickSpin for example so you could get QS to make a DOA clone?

Or is it simply a case of you get a portfolio to pick from and that's it?

We generally dont get that involved in the early/mid stages but a lot of providers will showcase their games to us when they are a couple of months away from release to test our reactions, if we have any suggestions for improvements but this is mainly to the look and feel and the UI and therefore UX as these are very important areas for the game to get played in the first place, it is after that that the maths model kicks in and players like/dont like. But unless a player spends time on the game and understands it intuitively they will not spend the time required on the game.

DoA is a top 10 game but it cannot just be cloned, but - and I am sorry to say this to the CM community - it is waaaaaaaaay behind starburst.....

i am sure Trancemonkey will agree with me here that a developer or and operator cant be sure how a game will perform over the long term - only time will tell

 

[BeardyGuts]

We generally dont get that involved in the early/mid stages but a lot of providers will showcase their games to us when they are a couple of months away from release to test our reactions, if we have any suggestions for improvements but this is mainly to the look and feel and the UI and therefore UX as these are very important areas for the game to get played in the first place, it is after that that the maths model kicks in and players like/dont like. But unless a player spends time on the game and understands it intuitively they will not spend the time required on the game.

DoA is a top 10 game but it cannot just be cloned, but - and I am sorry to say this to the CM community - it is waaaaaaaaay behind starburst.....

i am sure Trancemonkey will agree with me here that a developer or and operator cant be sure how a game will perform over the long term - only time will tell

Thanks for the reply! What do you mean by UX?

You say it cant be cloned but i mean raging rhino was cloned by playtech with buffalo blitz... book of dead is a clone of book of ra etc etc so why cant DOA be cloned?

Cant believe starburst is the most popular game.... explains why its on all the bloody tv adverts though! Personally it does my head in!

 

[Captain Rizk]

Thanks for the reply! What do you mean by UX?

You say it cant be cloned but i mean raging rhino was cloned by playtech with buffalo blitz... book of dead is a clone of book of ra etc etc so why cant DOA be cloned?

Cant believe starburst is the most popular game.... explains why its on all the bloody tv adverts though! Personally it does my head in!

Trancemonkey i think answered the cloning part because it is down to the math model, theme-ing and general User Interface.

By UX i mean User Experience.

Yes there have been copies of Rhino, Book of Ra etc but they are copies and not clones and are never as successful as the originals, in fact some can be complete flops

 

[dionysus]

I've been following the thread and while it hasn't been for the most part relevatory (I simply mean I've been listening and paying attention for years) I'm very happy trance..and the capt for his part...have taken the time and patience in this thread. And I'll at some point probably have questions.

But I must say..and it's only barely March...I see this as the early winner for thread of the year.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey i think answered the cloning part because it is down to the math model, theme-ing and general User Interface.

By UX i mean User Experience.

Yes there have been copies of Rhino, Book of Ra etc but they are copies and not clones and are never as successful as the originals, in fact some can be complete flops

There's actually quite a good reason to do clones of other manufacturers games sometimes....

One example would be a casinos which is mainly MG games, and where they don't have WMS games and aren't likely to get them. If Rhino was known to be doing well elsewhere there might be some commercial pressure to give these casinos a Rhino copy. They could feel that it's necessary in order to try and stops players going elsewhere for a rhino style fix....

This type of thing definitely goes on...

 

[slotter999]

If i tried to explain to you the maths on the current game i'm working on, you wouldn't believe how complex it is.

Well I for one would be interested in hearing you trying to explain it. I think it's a fair assumption many subscribers of this forum would have no problem understanding it if articulated well.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well I for one would be interested in hearing you trying to explain it. I think it's a fair assumption many subscribers of this forum would have no problem understanding it if articulated well.

I think the fact it's a game in development, and the maths is our biggest IP means I'll probably be sacked and sued pretty quickly... As much as I would love to share it with you all for obvious reasons I can't

Maybe I'll come up with an example that isn't a real game... Will see

 

[Playford7]

I think the fact it's a game in development, and the maths is our biggest IP means I'll probably be sacked and sued pretty quickly... As much as I would love to share it with you all for obvious reasons I can't

Maybe I'll come up with an example that isn't a real game... Will see

This thread is fantastic, eye opening and sometimes brutally honest.
I don't think, and bearing in mind I'm a baby member here that any sort of slots maths or code should be published, the reason being is that we in the most on here are players. We are not providers, leave that to the guys who do it for a living.
We have no reason to hear there maths, codes etc..unless you have a serious issue with it.

 

[slotter999]

I think the fact it's a game in development, and the maths is our biggest IP means I'll probably be sacked and sued pretty quickly... As much as I would love to share it with you all for obvious reasons I can't

Maybe I'll come up with an example that isn't a real game... Will see

Oddly enough I anticipated that response. Just like those two scatter teases on a low balance ;-)

Lobster Larry (and a few others) are fully disclosed in the public domain and made by IGT. How about that for an example?

 

[trancemonkey]

Oddly enough I anticipated that response. Just like those two scatter teases on a low balance ;-)

Lobster Larry (and a few others) are fully disclosed in the public domain and made by IGT. How about that for an example?

They are? I didn't know that.... Feel free to share a link

You don't have to believe anything I say but then what do I gain by lying? I started this thread knowing that there are Lot of myths flying around... And hoped to try and dispel them. But I know it might be a long and difficult uphill struggle

 

[slotter999]

They are? I didn't know that.... Feel free to share a link

You don't have to believe anything I say but then what do I gain by lying? I started this thread knowing that there are Lot of myths flying around... And hoped to try and dispel them. But I know it might be a long and difficult uphill struggle

You said the mathematics would be so complicated that we probably wouldn't understand so I simply asked you to give us a try which you declined and I have no issue with.

I'll dig out the Larry lobster stuff (I've posted it here previously) and send you a PM. Although it is somewhat dated now, I still think it's essential reading for any reasonably committed slot player that is curious to understand how slots work.

 

[Playford7]

You said the mathematics would be so complicated that we probably wouldn't understand so I simply asked you to give us a try which you declined and I have no issue with.

I'll dig out the Larry lobster stuff (I've posted it here previously) and send you a PM. Although it is somewhat dated now, I still think it's essential reading for any reasonably committed slot player that is curious to understand how slots work.

This I'd be well interested in. And a brilliant post.
If you possibly have the time could you also pm he said link.