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Since we pretty much concluded that "pick me" features are predetermined, what speaks against a user picked outcome of a pick me? Lets go with Scruffy Duck as an example, where you can trigger 5 different features. What speaks against putting a feature behind each pick and the user basically "chooses". Games like Immortal Romance give the user some control, and while people say its making no difference what feature you pick, there are features where the maximum win is much higher than on others. So why won´t slot makers go with the same approach for hidden features?
 
what is your biggest win on slot?

tr

Online it was raging rhino got just over 4 grand at 1.20 a spin. Had two spins in one feature that paid over 1200x.

In casinos I had a Jackpot on Buffalo grand of $1,233.56 which you then get to multiply and I hit the 10x!
 
Since we pretty much concluded that "pick me" features are predetermined, what speaks against a user picked outcome of a pick me? Lets go with Scruffy Duck as an example, where you can trigger 5 different features. What speaks against putting a feature behind each pick and the user basically "chooses". Games like Immortal Romance give the user some control, and while people say its making no difference what feature you pick, there are features where the maximum win is much higher than on others. So why won´t slot makers go with the same approach for hidden features?

If the average win is the same for all options then you can let the player pick. If it isn't the same then you have to pick for them (I.e. Secrets of the Stones, Scruffy Fuck).
 
If the average win is the same for all options then you can let the player pick. If it isn't the same then you have to pick for them (I.e. Secrets of the Stones, Scruffy Fuck).

I see, but the player doesn´t really pick, because the feature isn´t revealed, so why is the slot "unable" to let the player pick a random feature? It´s not like he will know which one is where
 
Hi, sorry to interrupt the thread but was just wondering if anyone has ever hit 8 clouds on Flowers Slot.
I've been playing this game for years now chasing them 30 free spins with 11x multiplier (plus stacked wilds)
Closest I had was 6 scatters and that's from roughly 600'000 spins across multiple sites.
 
Hi, sorry to interrupt the thread but was just wondering if anyone has ever hit 8 clouds on Flowers Slot.
I've been playing this game for years now chasing them 30 free spins with 11x multiplier (plus stacked wilds)
Closest I had was 6 scatters and that's from roughly 600'000 spins across multiple sites.


"I have known adventures, seen places you people will never see, I've been Offworld and back...frontiers!
I've stood on the back deck of a blinker bound for the Plutition Camps with sweat in my eyes watching the stars fight on the shoulder of Orion.
I've felt wind in my hair, riding test boats off the black galaxies and seen an attack fleet burn like a match and disappear.

I've seen it..."

But ive never seen more than 5 clouds on Flowers.



Blade Runner.
 
Hi, sorry to interrupt the thread but was just wondering if anyone has ever hit 8 clouds on Flowers Slot.
I've been playing this game for years now chasing them 30 free spins with 11x multiplier (plus stacked wilds)
Closest I had was 6 scatters and that's from roughly 600'000 spins across multiple sites.

I imagine the chance is in the millions - if it's advertised on the award card then it must be possible, but that doesn't mean it's not extremely unlikely...
 
Hi, sorry to interrupt the thread but was just wondering if anyone has ever hit 8 clouds on Flowers Slot.
I've been playing this game for years now chasing them 30 free spins with 11x multiplier (plus stacked wilds)
Closest I had was 6 scatters and that's from roughly 600'000 spins across multiple sites.

Sorry to say, but it's not 11x multiplier.
Its 30 freespins at 3x and the 11x youre referring to is the scatter hit, that you get 11x bet for it.
Unless i remember completely wrong ofcourse.

iz940l.jpg


As you can see, you always win x3 multiplier and not for instance 2,2,4 or 10.
Also on netents homepage it states that the game wins x3 multiplier when you win freespins.
 
Sorry to say, but it's not 11x multiplier.
Its 30 freespins at 3x and the 11x youre referring to is the scatter hit, that you get 11x bet for it.
Unless i remember completely wrong ofcourse.

iz940l.jpg


As you can see, you always win x3 multiplier and not for instance 2,2,4 or 10.
Also on netents homepage it states that the game wins x3 multiplier when you win freespins.

And that's that.
Completely blinded by my own ignorance lol
Time to find a new game and another goal.
What to chase....5 wilds on 100'000 pyramid or the invisible double feature hit on Bruce Lee with hopefully wilds as the 4 matching symbols.
 
And that's that.
Completely blinded by my own ignorance lol
Time to find a new game and another goal.
What to chase....5 wilds on 100'000 pyramid or the invisible double feature hit on Bruce Lee with hopefully wilds as the 4 matching symbols.

Decisive factors would probably be that either you own your house, or that you are eligable for a remortgage.
 
Random pick

Hi!
When slot machine bonus give us choice to pick hidden fields with bonus- where under them is free spin counts or bonus money - is slot already calculate what I will get or it depends of my luck what I pick?

For example:
Bonus gives me 3 golden balls - I must pick one - I got 50 € -after pick - slot shows that under second ball was 200 € price and third ball 10 000 € - did slot already knows that I'll get 50 € before I started to pick, or I was unlucky or computer generates random prizes and I get that money when I clicked in that mili-second on that ball?

second example:
after I get bonus - I must pick how many free spins I will get - I'm picking +1, +1, + 1 multiplayer, +1 etc and then I pick on - "collect and play free spins". Video slot already knows how many free spins and multiplayers I will get - or it depends on my luck?
 
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Transmanckey. Thanks for the discussion about of slots.I realized that you can warm up slot.This is amazing.I put 150 Euro on the casino. Chose the slot, it was a 3 Kingdom.And started to turn the wheel .I was turned the wheel many times,100 euros lost and then started winning. I won 400 euros.The bet was 1.5 euros on 15 lines.
I understand on account of the warm-up slot?
 
Hi!
When slot machine bonus give us choice to pick hidden fields with bonus- where under them is free spin counts or bonus money - is slot already calculate what I will get or it depends of my luck what I pick?

For example:
Bonus gives me 3 golden balls - I must pick one - I got 50 € -after pick - slot shows that under second ball was 200 € price and third ball 10 000 € - did slot already knows that I'll get 50 € before I started to pick, or I was unlucky or computer generates random prizes and I get that money when I clicked in that mili-second on that ball?

second example:
after I get bonus - I must pick how many free spins I will get - I'm picking +1, +1, + 1 multiplayer, +1 etc and then I pick on - "collect and play free spins". Video slot already knows how many free spins and multiplayers I will get - or it depends on my luck?

Hey CapitanLucky - thanks for the question...
Sadly there is not one correct answer here... different games can handle this in different ways. On some, the picks will be predetermined, and on others it is possible that where you pick determines what you get. The first method is more common than the second.

In some jurisdictions (in some land-based ones, not online) if you reveal what the other picks could have been, then they must have been available should you have picked them. However, this is not a requirement online.
 
Transmanckey. Thanks for the discussion about of slots.I realized that you can warm up slot.This is amazing.I put 150 Euro on the casino. Chose the slot, it was a 3 Kingdom.And started to turn the wheel .I was turned the wheel many times,100 euros lost and then started winning. I won 400 euros.The bet was 1.5 euros on 15 lines.
I understand on account of the warm-up slot?

I might change my name to Transmanckey - i kinda like it :)

But no, there is no such thing as "warming up" a slot... unless you're playing a compensated game in a pub, for example (or a compensated B3 game in a UK bookmakers) when it is theoretically possible depending on how the game is controlled...

No matter what people may like to believe - and i doubt i've changed many peoples mind on this, if any - slots are random. Yes, the randomness (volatility) is controlled, but they are not compensated and have no record of how much money you, or anyone else, has put in to them... They don't (unless by design, and shown to the player) go on hot streaks or forced cold streaks.
 
Yes, the randomness (volatility) is controlled...

Oh, yes, controlled in manner that providers/casinos can't loose (or loose much). I would say it is manipulated in the way that you have 3,4 or 5 % of winning something significant. So not completely random, but furnished, framed, rigged...

Many have noticed, things that do MG slots these days have nothing to do with randomness, but with plain robbery...if providers would have any decency (or fairness, if I can even put that word in context of gambling) they would make slots which have cold/hot streaks in acceptable and not greedy way...

But they don't do that, because they earn so bloody much robbing their players...
 
Oh, yes, controlled in manner that providers/casinos can't loose (or loose much). I would say it is manipulated in the way that you have 3,4 or 5 % of winning something significant. So not completely random, but furnished, framed, rigged...

Many have noticed, things that do MG slots these days have nothing to do with randomness, but with plain robbery...if providers would have any decency (or fairness, if I can even put that word in context of gambling) they would make slots which have cold/hot streaks in acceptable and not greedy way...

But they don't do that, because they earn so bloody much robbing their players...

If you want cold hot streaks to be less volatile play as less volatile game... Simples...
 
If you want cold hot streaks to be less volatile play as less volatile game... Simples...

Did that! WinSumDimSum eat some 50€ (0.54 per spin). But I guess you know that any slot can be deadly hostile on a cold run...

Simply slots gone mad...
 
Scatter Pay outs.. Someone please explain... lol.

Hi Dave,

I'm brand Spanking new to casinomeister... Pretty much stumbled upon it trying to find answers to nagging question I have ( i tried asking casino chat support ) no luck-

Hopefully U or someone happening by might be able to clear this up for me - sorry in advance if my question is a bit stupid but I need to hear it from people that aren't casino staff ... so here goes

LUCKY KOI found on microgaming sites. 25 lines
usual bells and whistles, scatters free spins random multiplier etc..

I know wins pay left to right , wins multiplied by bet per line etc,
My source of confusion is in regards to scatters,
On the pay table it states as follows- Scatter pays all ways- scatter win is multiplied by TOTAL BET STAKED...

3 scatter = 125 x
4 scatter = 500 x
5 scatter = 2500x

Few days ago i was playing this game on a bet of 0.35 cents per line, 25 lines = $8.75
I Hit 5 scatters so in my head I'm thinking total bet staked is 8.75 x 2500

My win was only paid at 0.35 x 2500 netting me $875, The casino says that is correct as 0.35 it the total bet staked ??
I just don't see how that can be the case as that is only the total bet value of 1 single line. only 1 /25 of the bet staked
Yet I'm told that is correct.... how can they claim that to be the total bet staked ?

they've tried to tell me that the win has been paid multiplied by the total bet staked correctly as stated
$875 is correct as the total bet staked was 0.35 per line x 2500
I realize I'm probably not gonna win this argument or I'm probably mistaken or I've missing something obvious here,
but.. damn I just can't get my head around the fact that the amount wagered per spin.. apparently is not considered to be the total bet staked? instead I'm being told that 0.35 ( the bet per line ) is actually total bet staked...

Bet per line is what i was expect to have a regular win multiplied by, as stated on the pay board..
So I'mj just tad frustrated and dumb founded to have been told that actually the total bet staked is not actually the total amount i am wagering per spin as i had thought ? that in fact in this case scatter win multiplied by total bet staked actually means mutilpied by total bet staked per line? .. on a scatter win..?
i just don't understand how total bet staked equates to a standard "total bet staked per line " ?

Have I lost my wits and marbles and or am seriously I'm just not understanding something fairly fundamental here .?
or is that correct ?
 
Hi Dave,

I'm brand Spanking new to casinomeister... Pretty much stumbled upon it trying to find answers to nagging question I have ( i tried asking casino chat support ) no luck-

Hopefully U or someone happening by might be able to clear this up for me - sorry in advance if my question is a bit stupid but I need to hear it from people that aren't casino staff ... so here goes

LUCKY KOI found on microgaming sites. 25 lines
usual bells and whistles, scatters free spins random multiplier etc..

I know wins pay left to right , wins multiplied by bet per line etc,
My source of confusion is in regards to scatters,
On the pay table it states as follows- Scatter pays all ways- scatter win is multiplied by TOTAL BET STAKED...

3 scatter = 125 x
4 scatter = 500 x
5 scatter = 2500x

Few days ago i was playing this game on a bet of 0.35 cents per line, 25 lines = $8.75
I Hit 5 scatters so in my head I'm thinking total bet staked is 8.75 x 2500

My win was only paid at 0.35 x 2500 netting me $875, The casino says that is correct as 0.35 it the total bet staked ??
I just don't see how that can be the case as that is only the total bet value of 1 single line. only 1 /25 of the bet staked
Yet I'm told that is correct.... how can they claim that to be the total bet staked ?

they've tried to tell me that the win has been paid multiplied by the total bet staked correctly as stated
$875 is correct as the total bet staked was 0.35 per line x 2500
I realize I'm probably not gonna win this argument or I'm probably mistaken or I've missing something obvious here,
but.. damn I just can't get my head around the fact that the amount wagered per spin.. apparently is not considered to be the total bet staked? instead I'm being told that 0.35 ( the bet per line ) is actually total bet staked...

Bet per line is what i was expect to have a regular win multiplied by, as stated on the pay board..
So I'mj just tad frustrated and dumb founded to have been told that actually the total bet staked is not actually the total amount i am wagering per spin as i had thought ? that in fact in this case scatter win multiplied by total bet staked actually means mutilpied by total bet staked per line? .. on a scatter win..?
i just don't understand how total bet staked equates to a standard "total bet staked per line " ?

Have I lost my wits and marbles and or am seriously I'm just not understanding something fairly fundamental here .?
or is that correct ?

Can you please post an image of the paytable / help screen that displays the prizes for the scatters and also one for the other awards...
 
5 scatters is defo only 100x stake.
Played this slot a lot myself and was sure it could not have been 2500x for just 5 scatters.
Don't think any MGS slot pays that actually.

See below paytable at €1.00 stake:

3 scatters: 5x bet
4 scatters: 20x bet
5 scatters: 100x bet

Untitled.webp

Hope that clears your issue a bit missgt81. ;)
 
Yeah.. Mines Diff..?

5 scatters is defo only 100x stake.
Played this slot a lot myself and was sure it could not have been 2500x for just 5 scatters.
Don't think any MGS slot pays that actually.

See below paytable at €1.00 stake:

3 scatters: 5x bet
4 scatters: 20x bet
5 scatters: 100x bet

View attachment 78788

Hope that clears your issue a bit missgt81. ;)

Thanks for the reply.. the Pay out on mine is a bit different.. I've attached a couple if screen shots :)

IMG_1375.webpIMG_1342.webp
 
Thanks for the reply.. the Pay out on mine is a bit different.. I've attached a couple if screen shots :)

View attachment 78789View attachment 78790

Yeah... It's a 25 line game and the prize is shown as a multiplier of line bet. So 125x is 5x stake (5 x 25).

It doesn't state as far as I can see that the prize is a multiplier of stake...
 
Yeah... It's a 25 line game and the prize is shown as a multiplier of line bet. So 125x is 5x stake (5 x 25).

It doesn't state as far as I can see that the prize is a multiplier of stake...

It does actually say at the bottom both of the paytable screenshots (in blue) "Scatter wins multiplied by total bet staked" - Not line bet.

but the desktop version shows a monetary value, dynamically linked to the stake, rather than a multiplier, as with the mobile version .

They've obviously made a mistake on the mobile version
 
It does actually say at the bottom both of the paytable screenshots (in blue) "Scatter wins multiplied by total bet staked" - Not line bet.

but the desktop version shows a monetary value, dynamically linked to the stake, rather than a multiplier, as with the mobile version .

They've obviously made a mistake on the mobile version

Yeah - that's a mistake... i would point that out (including the screenshots) to the casino, and maybe also send a polite email to MG as well....

Apologies i couldn't make that out on my phone, but i can see it now :(
 
It does actually say at the bottom both of the paytable screenshots (in blue) "Scatter wins multiplied by total bet staked" - Not line bet.

but the desktop version shows a monetary value, dynamically linked to the stake, rather than a multiplier, as with the mobile version .

They've obviously made a mistake on the mobile version



its exactly the same on my desktop..
 
Aye that looks completely wrong but now I get your confusion!
Still nice to hit 5 scatters tho. :-) Never seen them on this slot, had 4 scatters loads of times.


Thanks .. yeah it was very nice to hit 5 but it was waaaay nice when i thought i would be winning 21k .. instead of only 875.. lol
 
Yeah - that's a mistake... i would point that out (including the screenshots) to the casino, and maybe also send a polite email to MG as well....

Apologies i couldn't make that out on my phone, but i can see it now :(

I've already tried... spent ages on chat with them and they just insist that it means .. total bet staked per line.. which really just sounds ridiculously absurd as the standard wins are paid x bet per line.. and the statement on the pay board is that scatter is pays 'total bet staked"
but they continue to insist that its is correct.. and so i get no where...

Anyone got any ideas..? what is MG..? microgaming..?
 
I've already tried... spent ages on chat with them and they just insist that it means .. total bet staked per line.. which really just sounds ridiculously absurd as the standard wins are paid x bet per line.. and the statement on the pay board is that scatter is pays 'total bet staked"
but they continue to insist that its is correct.. and so i get no where...

Anyone got any ideas..? what is MG..? microgaming..?

Well the casino are lying... The statement is wrong and needs to be changed. The game is doing what it should be but the help page is misleading.. And (I know you wouldn't) if you went to court you would win.

I would contact Microgaming with your screenshot and politely point out it's wrong... You won't get anywhere by trying to claim money but at least you might get them to change it.
 
I might change my name to Transmanckey - i kinda like it :)

But no, there is no such thing as "warming up" a slot... unless you're playing a compensated game in a pub, for example (or a compensated B3 game in a UK bookmakers) when it is theoretically possible depending on how the game is controlled...

No matter what people may like to believe - and i doubt i've changed many peoples mind on this, if any - slots are random. Yes, the randomness (volatility) is controlled, but they are not compensated and have no record of how much money you, or anyone else, has put in to them... They don't (unless by design, and shown to the player) go on hot streaks or forced cold streaks.
Excuse me for the mistake in the nick, I'll be careful)). I understood with warm up the slot. So it was just luck.)))Sorry. But on the other hand, in a casino manages his Majesty the case!So it should be):notworthy
 
Well the casino are lying... The statement is wrong and needs to be changed. The game is doing what it should be but the help page is misleading.. And (I know you wouldn't) if you went to court you would win.

I would contact Microgaming with your screenshot and politely point out it's wrong... You won't get anywhere by trying to claim money but at least you might get them to change it.
Trancemonkey :thumbsup: thanks!You discuss very interesting topics on the thread. I'm new, and glad that generally win.And I didn't think to count the scatter bonus. I trusted the casino.))Now I'm going to calculate everything. And that I don't understand, I will question you, and then torture a support casino issues ))I will torment them politely)). And I always have to make screens, and now I forget to do them.:)
 
best

Just to point out .. this is best thread of 2017.

very interesting read.. all 84 or so pages :)
 
Trancemonkey. I don't know if this has been covered already in this mega thread, but one thing I am interested in is how the game decides how to show the outcome of a spin.

For example, does the RNG come up with an outcome of (say) a £3 win and then it randomly "works out" one of several possible ways to actually show that outcome via the reel symbols. OR does the RNG come up with a number that tells the game "£3 via 1x rhino on reels 1,2 and 3".

Second supplementary question, on some games the makers say things like oh, we managed to get xxx win out of it during testing", how can a win potential be a surprise when every possible RNG outcome is already planned out?

Cheers

SZ
 
Canadians can`t play certain providers, as you well know. The casinos say they will be fined for allowing a country to play games they aren`t authorized to play. I would like to know if they (Novomatic, Net Ent, etc.) have ever levied a fine on a casino or if this is just a load of BS. Personally, considering the rampant rulebreaking on Twitch streams these days blocking slot providers seems petty.
 
Canadians can`t play certain providers, as you well know. The casinos say they will be fined for allowing a country to play games they aren`t authorized to play. I would like to know if they (Novomatic, Net Ent, etc.) have ever levied a fine on a casino or if this is just a load of BS. Personally, considering the rampant rulebreaking on Twitch streams these days blocking slot providers seems petty.

I can't answer the fines part, but I'd wager theyr're hedging their bets in case Canada ever moves out of the grey region and it comes to licensing and wanting to have a history of being compliant.
 
I can't answer the fines part, but I'd wager theyr're hedging their bets in case Canada ever moves out of the grey region and it comes to licensing and wanting to have a history of being compliant.

I would imagine in the T's & C's, the software providers would have terms like this... i'm not 100% sure who is liable if someone plays a game from outside of a zone where it is legal to gamble... i would imagine it's the casino, but i do know that games providers also Geoblock...

However, it's pretty easy to get around a Geoblock in terms of the games, but the casinos should do a KYC and know where the player lives in order to determine what games they can and can't play based on the account, rather than the IP address - but then, what if i'm on holiday and i want to play...

There's a lot of grey, and some of it is very difficult to police effectively...
 
I would imagine in the T's & C's, the software providers would have terms like this... i'm not 100% sure who is liable if someone plays a game from outside of a zone where it is legal to gamble... i would imagine it's the casino, but i do know that games providers also Geoblock...

However, it's pretty easy to get around a Geoblock in terms of the games, but the casinos should do a KYC and know where the player lives in order to determine what games they can and can't play based on the account, rather than the IP address - but then, what if i'm on holiday and i want to play...

There's a lot of grey, and some of it is very difficult to police effectively...

In most contracts with providers a casino will have an appendix that includes a "Restricted Territory" list which can be updated by the provider at any time and that the casino are ultimately responsible for blocking. As Trancemonkey says Geoblocking is easy to get around but there are additional cross checks that can be performed to further restrict and ensure compliance.

The range of penalties from a provider can differ based upon the contract, but the one common term is that the provider will have recourse to terminate their contract with an Operator should the Restricted Territory list not be enforced consistently.
 
Trancemonkey. I don't know if this has been covered already in this mega thread, but one thing I am interested in is how the game decides how to show the outcome of a spin.

For example, does the RNG come up with an outcome of (say) a £3 win and then it randomly "works out" one of several possible ways to actually show that outcome via the reel symbols. OR does the RNG come up with a number that tells the game "£3 via 1x rhino on reels 1,2 and 3".

Second supplementary question, on some games the makers say things like oh, we managed to get xxx win out of it during testing", how can a win potential be a surprise when every possible RNG outcome is already planned out?

Cheers

SZ

Your first point

I'm sure there are some providers (the smaller ones that don't really understand slot maths) that might do it one of the initial two ways you suggest - however, i can pretty much assure you that neither of those methods are used by companies that know what they are doing - and certainly never by anywhere i've ever worked.

There are many, many ways to make games, from using simple reel bands, to much more complicated methods. However, none of these work the way you suggest. As there are so many ways to make games, i can't go in to all of them, but a simple example would be as follows:

Imagine a game has 3 reels, 1 win line, and each reel made up of 8 symbols as shown below:

BLANK
BLANK
7
BLANK
BLANK
7
BLANK
7

For each reel, the RNG will be asked to give a number in the range 0-7 (as RNG's are zero-based, so the first position is 0, not 1). Lets say it returns position 2 on reel 1, 5 on reel 2 and 0 on reel 3. This would result in 7 7 BLANK - so no win.

The next spin it returns position 7 on reel 1, 5 on reel 2 and 2 on reel 3. This would result in 7 7 7- so this time you get a win.

This is a very simple solution, but for a long time (granted many years ago) this is exactly how slot machines were done...

Your second point

Because not every game uses simple reel bands where the maximum win can be calculated, we run simulations where we need to. For example, on Bonanza, they have probably run billions of games to find out what the maximum multiplier is in the free games - this is because the multiplier is a factor of how often you win in the free spins, but because each free spin is a random event, you need to determine what the maximum practical win is in case where the theoretical maximum can't be determined from a spreadsheet.

Hope that helps
 
Hi Trancemonkey,

Thank you for the thread and replies, I have a few q's of my own, hopefully they are not repeats:

- Do any jackpot slots (bar ones that have minimum bets required, e.g. jackpot giant) disallow the jackpot to be won on a) free spins b) while playing with a bonus? If none/few, doesn't a casino lose out when people play jackpot slots with a bonus, as the casino has to pay into the jackpot pot with their own money?

- When does a jackpot pot get allocated to a winner? Some slots have very long winded method to win jackpot. I.e. Get free spins, get x symbols during free spins, play final jackpot game. If I disconnect during free spins, has the server already allocated the 'random seed' which might be the jackpot winner? Could someone win the current jackpot pot while I'm disconnected?

- In a game where you can select which free spins feature to play, does your choice affect the outcome? Some slots tend to indicate that you can change the volatility, e.g. pick less spins but higher multiplier. However, getting 1 big spin win that adds up to £1000 or 5* £200 during free spins could still lead to the 'same' outcome if everything is pre-determined the second you hit the bonus?

- I read in previous posts that as far as you know, most slots (apart from those that state they do) do not change the maths/reel combos based on amount staked.
However, some games can easily exceed the £200/£250k max win limits some/most slots impose if betting say £200 per spin. So does this mean: The slots can still do the same combinations, but if you win over £250k, you will lose any extra winnings (thus reducing your RTP). Or the slot mechanics change so that the max you can win is £250k (and thus the volatility of the game reduces but the RTP remains the same)?

- Is it possible to get 5 reel of wilds in great blue slot at 15* stake multiplier?

- What penalties would a game provider get if they found out that the actual RTP of a game is say 5% lower than stated due to a glitch that was not picked up during testing? Will players who have played such slots get compensation?

Thank you
 
Slots Tracker - Proof slots are rigged or not..??

A great post in another thread from Tropicana50 - i've pasted it verbatim below. This guy has statistical proof on games - read an enjoy... post your comments below if you want:

As far as the data goes there can be hundreds of variables sent back and fourth depending on how complex a game is. None of this data includes any personal information other than a player session ID which changes frequently. This can be said for all providers we have analysed.

The game that you see is just a display unit. When you press spin a set of data is sent to the server that includes your wager, your lines, your bet level (on some games), your round ID (a secure ID given to you when you authenticate / load the game) and some information about which game you are playing, country you reside in and the currency you are using. Some Casinos use a proxy in between this connection so your IP address would essentially be masked from the receiving server. The server receives this information and generates a set of random numbers for each element of the game.

These are then passed back to the game (display unit) and it does as instructed by the server.

If a provider or casino used outside variables such as IP addresses, account age or any other type of player controlled variable then they would open themselves up to huge manipulation. It wouldn't take long for someone to work out how to coin the system and rinse any casino. This would be extremely risky and in the long term no business with legs would use player information to manipulate future results when there is no need to whatsoever.

Each provider has to submit an audit of game play each quarter that includes a detailed analysis of play to the UKGC. These numbers are verified with casinos, payment processors and other related companies to guarantee a fair game.

The market has been changing in the past year. Flame Busters, Book of Dead, High Voltage, Bonanza, Jungle Spirit and a bunch of other popular new releases. Games are becoming increasingly more volatile which means a huge majority of the RTP usually ends up going to a handful of players. These are the games that people end up seeing videos of on YouTube and then chase themselves. The market is adjusting to what is getting more play time and that is very infrequent monster hits rather than a varied session.

Another big issue that we are currently working on within Slot Tracker is in defining what RTP actually is. Many players believe RTP is (MONEY_OUT / MONEY_IN) x 100. Whilst for your personal interest this is correct, this is not entirely true when it comes to displaying an accurate RTP figure for a game based on an aggregate of spins using different bet levels. Take this as an example:

Player A does 10,000 spins on Game X at $1 and gets back $9,500. (95% RTP)
Player B does 1,000 spins on Game X at $5 and gets back $4,000. (80% RTP)

Most people would say the RTP of Game X was ((9,500 + 4,000) / 15,000) * 100 = 90%, however this is not the case. The actual RTP of Game X is (95 + 80) / 2 = 87.5%.

Each spin is independent with a fixed probability. Therefore the correct way to work out RTP in the long term for a specific game is to do the (MONEY_OUT / MONEY_IN) x 100 math on every individual spin and then accumulate this figure and divide by the total number of spins. We call this figure SRP (Statistical Return to Player) and have been analysing it heavily.

In theory over enough time, with enough spins and all different bet levels the RTP and SRP figures SHOULD converge, but in the short term these figures can vary drastically and can very much impact your thoughts on a particular game, provider or casino.

We have now tracked over 3 million real money spins with Slot Tracker. I personally have over 110,000 spins tracked with an RTP of 91.35%. Nearly all of my play has been on games that advertise a 95-96% RTP. Do I think slots are rigged / changed / manipulated? No. Most of my play has been on high volatile games and these are natural curves that these games produce.

Our system is monitoring slots, providers and casinos all of the time and anything that we find suspicious we will let the community know about. We also plan to do some posts in the near future with some game analysis. To do this we need a massive amount of spins to guarantee we can perform meaningful tests.

- T
 
Hi dada55 - thanks for the questions. Some have been asked, but i'll do my best to answer here - answers inline in Red :)

Hi Trancemonkey,

Thank you for the thread and replies, I have a few q's of my own, hopefully they are not repeats:

- Do any jackpot slots (bar ones that have minimum bets required, e.g. jackpot giant) disallow the jackpot to be won on a) free spins b) while playing with a bonus? If none/few, doesn't a casino lose out when people play jackpot slots with a bonus, as the casino has to pay into the jackpot pot with their own money?

All the rules relating to how a jackpot can be won will be found in the rules of the game. With regards to whether a bonus can be won with bonus money -
yes it can. Bonus money is treated as normal money, the game doesn't care whether it's bonus money or not. Jackpots that are over multiple sites are paid by the game provider, not the casino.


- When does a jackpot pot get allocated to a winner? Some slots have very long winded method to win jackpot. I.e. Get free spins, get x symbols during free spins, play final jackpot game. If I disconnect during free spins, has the server already allocated the 'random seed' which might be the jackpot winner? Could someone win the current jackpot pot while I'm disconnected?

It's allocated at the point in time the RNG call happens. This can vary from game to game, and on how the jackpot is won - for example is it just from some symbols on a reel, or as part of a more complex feature. If the server determined you were the winner, but you disconnected before you saw the win - you would see it the next time you logged on. In the meantime, the jackpot would have reset (as it's technically been won) and yes someone else could win the jackpot, but not your jackpot...

- In a game where you can select which free spins feature to play, does your choice affect the outcome? Some slots tend to indicate that you can change the volatility, e.g. pick less spins but higher multiplier. However, getting 1 big spin win that adds up to £1000 or 5* £200 during free spins could still lead to the 'same' outcome if everything is pre-determined the second you hit the bonus?

No, your choice has a bearing on the outcome. For example, on Jungle Spirit, if you choose Bears, you might win 50x. If you had instead chosen Snakes,
you would not necessarily have won 50x. Each Free Spin would be randomly determined... The important thing is that the average amount you win doesn't change, but the volatility does


- I read in previous posts that as far as you know, most slots (apart from those that state they do) do not change the maths/reel combos based on amount staked.
However, some games can easily exceed the £200/£250k max win limits some/most slots impose if betting say £200 per spin. So does this mean: The slots can still do the same combinations, but if you win over £250k, you will lose any extra winnings (thus reducing your RTP). Or the slot mechanics change so that the max you can win is £250k (and thus the volatility of the game reduces but the RTP remains the same)?

An interesting question - capping doesn't happen very often, although some smaller casinos have lower caps. The law around capping is a little grey -
casinos are not supposed to allow bet sizes that are so high that capping would occur too often. Rare capping is allowed, and where it does happen the excess money is sadly lost. This is simply because we can't compensate or change the outcome of a spin, or feature, based on whether it would break the cap. However, most games where capping occurs rarely lose more than a fraction of a percent from capping, and that is normally only for max bet players.


- Is it possible to get 5 reel of wilds in great blue slot at 15* stake multiplier?

God knows, but boy i've tried!

- What penalties would a game provider get if they found out that the actual RTP of a game is say 5% lower than stated due to a glitch that was not picked up during testing? Will players who have played such slots get compensation?

Another interesting question! :) When a provider finds out their game is underpaying (or overpaying) they have to immediately disable the game (as soon as logistically feasible). For overpaying games, the UKGC do not need to be notified, as no players were disadvantage. However, in the case of underpaying games, the UKGC have to be informed. If players have been disadvantaged, it is our legal obligation to pay players. For example, if a game was running at 90% instead of 95%, and you'd lost £1000 in the game, we would be expected to give you £50. This has happened at a company i have worked at, and we had write a script to go through all player accounts,
work out how much they needed to be reimbursed, and then work with the casinos to do this.


Thank you

Hope that answered all your questions :)
 
Hi dada55 - thanks for the questions. Some have been asked, but i'll do my best to answer here - answers inline in Red :)



Hope that answered all your questions :)

Thanks for the answers! That is pretty interesting about reimbursement, though I'm not sure how much I trust many casinos to alert and properly distribute the refunds... There are some where they can't even properly tell you your day's play history.
 
Thanks for the answers! That is pretty interesting about reimbursement, though I'm not sure how much I trust many casinos to alert and properly distribute the refunds... There are some where they can't even properly tell you your day's play history.

Well, there are enough good casinos out there - choose with your wallet :)
 
I asked this before but you probably missed it.

Casino owners are not allowed to play in their own Casino or so I have been told.

Are you allowed to play the games you designed with real money?

Yeah we're allowed to play our own games ... with some exception:

1. We aren't supposed to play any games with huge progressives (i.e mega jackpots)... - wouldn't look good if the news said "IGT employee wins 50 million dollars on IGT game would it.

2. There are a number of casinos around the world that we aren't allowed to play at. Dunno why... But it's there prerogative I guess. We just make sure the casino isn't on the list of casinos we can't play at.

3. With regards to online there are no restrictions I'm aware of
 
What is the one slot that is out there that you wish you had designed with your team....

Sure... with regards to retail, the Lightning Link series has done phenomenally well (aristocrat). Oddly they haven't ported it online but Pragmatic Play have ripped it off.

In terms of online games, I think if you ask me what game from the last 12 months I wish I'd come up with it would be flamebusters... not the theme, but the concept and maths. I love the package they have done but for mass appeal they should probably have not gone down the 8-bit road.

In terms of online games ever, i wish I'd come up with Montezuma. I know it doesn't have maybe mass appeal but I love how the feature works... WMS have done a few games where you can retrigger and lock in a multiplier and i really like this idea.
 
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