Ask me anything (about slots)!

[BlaCGaming]

Since we have been talking about statistics and RTP, I want to go back to the question about "hot or cold" games.

So we know, that 1000x hits are rare, statistically doesn´t happen often.

Lets say a casino has "Dead or Alive" advertised as "hot" because some players have won a few thousands.

Just based on the probability and statistics, am I less likely to win the same if I play this game while its hot? I know each spin is independant, but the TRTP has to be reached, so if 5 players win 1000$ each, someone needs to lose that amount. Does that come in to play, since its unlikely 100 more players win 1000$ pound on the same day?

If it is in fact completely random, how will it work out for casinos if a new slot launches, a high roller hits a mega win (800.000$) for example, but doesn´t play it again, and the rest of the players are low rollers? To reach the TRTP the low rollers would have to lose a combined amount of 800.000$ up until enough spins are made for the percentage to check out. What will happen? Will it go beyond the "billion spins" until the figure is reached? Basically, what happens if a game doesn´t get back then money it paid out, even on long term, and has this happened before (on a slot that wasn´t faulty in any way)?

 

[Kadabra]

Great thread.

Wanted to ask: do you know why it's more popular to post expected RTP of online slots then in offline?
Also, why you think some online providers don't (considering they are ok and not rogue).

My guess was that it started simply as a marketing tool and with time becomes a norm.
And it's easier to do online since first, the slot doesn't really take space, so the casino doesn't mind if more people play the same slot) while in landbased it can create some unbalance. And second that it's related to different minimum return in different jurisdictions (btw, how you deal with that?)

Thank you

 

[trancemonkey]

Since we have been talking about statistics and RTP, I want to go back to the question about "hot or cold" games.

So we know, that 1000x hits are rare, statistically doesn´t happen often.

Lets say a casino has "Dead or Alive" advertised as "hot" because some players have won a few thousands.

Just based on the probability and statistics, am I less likely to win the same if I play this game while its hot? I know each spin is independant, but the TRTP has to be reached, so if 5 players win 1000$ each, someone needs to lose that amount. Does that come in to play, since its unlikely 100 more players win 1000$ pound on the same day?

If it is in fact completely random, how will it work out for casinos if a new slot launches, a high roller hits a mega win (800.000$) for example, but doesn´t play it again, and the rest of the players are low rollers? To reach the TRTP the low rollers would have to lose a combined amount of 800.000$ up until enough spins are made for the percentage to check out. What will happen? Will it go beyond the "billion spins" until the figure is reached? Basically, what happens if a game doesn´t get back then money it paid out, even on long term, and has this happened before (on a slot that wasn´t faulty in any way)?

To answer your last point first - that is indeed a risk, and i know of some slots that have lost money for exactly that reason - i.e someone (high roller) has had a huge win early on on a game that's not popular, and the game never makes it back. However, remember casinos look at the overall picture - that high roller probably will lose some / all of that win on a different game over time. We all know this - winnings are just basically a short term loan from the casino

To answer your first question - statistically of course it comes in to play... but also every spin is independent. Imagine a 1000x win is a million to one, and every time you press the start button, you roll that dice. If it lands on 1, you win 1000x. It's possible to roll a 1 on two rolls consecutively, but its very unlikely.

 

[Van7Diesel]

Are the conditions of using the slot and the winning percentage depend on casinos or not?

 

[Gonzo]

Trancemonkey i wonder. When i trigger a bonus, does the slot know how mych ut is going to pay before i start the frespins. And does the slot decide how much it is going to pay in money och X-stake? i mean if id decide in money that is is going to pay let say 1000euro so that mean a vig stake is stupid

 

[trancemonkey]

Are the conditions of using the slot and the winning percentage depend on casinos or not?

Yes, different casinos could be running at different RTP's - so always best to check the help pages!

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey i wonder. When i trigger a bonus, does the slot know how mych ut is going to pay before i start the frespins. And does the slot decide how much it is going to pay in money och X-stake? i mean if id decide in money that is is going to pay let say 1000euro so that mean a vig stake is stupid

Ok, so let me answer this in a different order to how you asked it...
When it comes to Free Spins, we don't choose a X-stake to pay (although Barcrest in the UK used to do this - Rocky was an example of this... doubt they do this any more though). Each Free Spin is randomly determined, hence the outcome of Free Spins can be quite volatile.
The other question is a little trickier - some providers DO determine all the Free Spins at the point the Free Spins are won (Blueprint do this, as do QuickSpin to name but a few) - so if you have two browsers open you may see you balance update in one of them before the free spins have even begun with the total you will win from then. This is poor coding - although at least you'll never get a disconnect during the Free Spins... Most games determine each Free Spin at the point the reels spin. However, both methods produce similarly random results and are differences in coding and game logic flow, rather than doing anything surreptitious.

 

[Kadabra]

Hi Trancemonkey,

Posted it before but maybe you missed:

do you know why it's more popular to post expected TRTP of online slots then in offline?
Also, why you think some online providers don't (considering they are ok and not rogue).

 

[trancemonkey]

Great thread.

Wanted to ask: do you know why it's more popular to post expected RTP of online slots then in offline?
Also, why you think some online providers don't (considering they are ok and not rogue).

My guess was that it started simply as a marketing tool and with time becomes a norm.
And it's easier to do online since first, the slot doesn't really take space, so the casino doesn't mind if more people play the same slot) while in landbased it can create some unbalance. And second that it's related to different minimum return in different jurisdictions (btw, how you deal with that?)

Thank you

The reason the RTP is quoted online is actually a legal thing - all games in the UK have to show the RTP. These can be hidden in help pages, or information pages, but they have to be accessible to the player before they commit any more.

In foreign markets, this is not the case...

 

[Naith85]

Most games determine each Free Spin at the point the reels spin. However, both methods produce similarly random results and are differences in coding and game logic flow, rather than doing anything surreptitious.

Wouldn't this mean that, if I disconnect during a free spin feature, and I restart the game (and comes back into the free spin feature), I would get a totally different result on the following spin, than I would get if I wasn't disconnected, since each spin is determined at the point where the spin starts?
Doesn't the server have to know the outcome of the total free spin feature in case any problem occur, like a dispute with the online casino and so on? Like if I disconnect the game and don't start it again in like a week, will the server continue the free spin feature "offscreen" and then add the final win amount to my account balance? Let say I have a dispute with the online casino and claim that the total win is wrong and that I could (in theory) won more on the free spin feature if I hadn't been disconnected. I hope you get my point here since I'm having a hard time explaining how I'm thinking.

 

[brianmon]

The reason the RTP is quoted online is actually a legal thing - all games in the UK have to show the RTP. These can be hidden in help pages, or information pages, but they have to be accessible to the player before they commit any more.

In foreign markets, this is not the case...

Apart from MGS.

Can it be so difficult to edit the help file, to add the RTP? Now it's a legal requirement.

Or maybe, if they have multiple RTP settings, adding them to the help file, will expose the casinos who have always used the lower settings

 

[trancemonkey]

Wouldn't this mean that, if I disconnect during a free spin feature, and I restart the game (and comes back into the free spin feature), I would get a totally different result on the following spin, than I would get if I wasn't disconnected, since each spin is determined at the point where the spin starts?
Doesn't the server have to know the outcome of the total free spin feature in case any problem occur, like a dispute with the online casino and so on? Like if I disconnect the game and don't start it again in like a week, will the server continue the free spin feature "offscreen" and then add the final win amount to my account balance? Let say I have a dispute with the online casino and claim that the total win is wrong and that I could (in theory) won more on the free spin feature if I hadn't been disconnected. I hope you get my point here since I'm having a hard time explaining how I'm thinking.

If you disconnect and never come back, then you lose the free spins and any winnings - i think the requirement (legally) is 180 days, although i'm not 100% sure on this. I'd have to check. If there was some unrecoverable error which meant it was impossible for you to play the free spins, then it is possible that the games provider could play out the game in the background (on the server, once the error is fixed) and you would be credited with the winnings. But this is a very very unlikely situation. No one is realistically going to leave a game half way through some free spins and never go back to it...

The server (in the case of games deciding spin by spin) only knows whats happened up to the point of the disconnect. But yes, because of the way RNG's work, your spin after you reconnect would almost certainly be different to what it would have been if you hadn't disconnected - but it doesn't matter, because it would make no difference to the average payout of the Free Spins... It's only the same way that the timing of the press of the start button has an impact on the outcome of the spin you see, as the RNG is constantly producing random numbers. But in the grand scheme of things, it makes no difference...

 

[trancemonkey]

Apart from MGS.

Can it be so difficult to edit the help file, to add the RTP? Now it's a legal requirement.

Or maybe, if they have multiple RTP settings, adding them to the help file, will expose the casinos who have always used the lower settings

My understanding is that the RTP must be legally accessible if the game is legally allowed to be played in the UK.

The Remote Gaming Technical Standards state, in Section 3:

RTS requirement 3C
For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be
expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of
winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must
include:
8
i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined
and prizes allocated;
ii. house edge (or margin);
iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage; or
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.

 

[dillos]

hi trancemonkey, the result of the slot spin come from the casino own server or external with the developer slot server ? I have this doubt because in the past someone say that 32red have own server so the result of the spin not come from microgaming... sorry for my bad english hope you understand

 

[Red Rake Gaming]

hi trancemonkey, the result of the slot spin come from the casino own server or external with the developer slot server ? I have this doubt because in the past someone say that 32red have own server so the result of the spin not come from microgaming... sorry for my bad english hope you understand

Hello,

No trancemonkey here, but I can tell you that the result of the spin is decided on the developer's server as there is where the game logic is hosted, including the RNG of the games.

Best regards.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hello,

No trancemonkey here, but I can tell you that the result of the spin is decided on the developer's server as there is where the game logic is hosted, including the RNG of the games.

Best regards.

Correct ...

As per the question, 32red would have there own servers in terms of their casino... But the game servers are owned either by the games provider or the platform provider if the games provider uses a different platform.

TM

 

[gambyx7]

Is Pretty Kitty (MG) corrupt slot?

No full screen cats il last 13 sessions. Full cats provide wins from 405 to 810x.

Yesterday and today I had super-long sessions: 3500, 2135, 5084 and 2048 spins. In other 9 session I could gather some 2000 spins.

It is around 15 000 spins!!!!

According to my unprecise statistic full screen of cats comes every 1132nd spin...

I understand that slot can be cold, I understand that we are sometimes greedy, but this slot can easily give you 300-400 completely empty spins and don't leat you near your starting balance. But there should be some turning point!!! I had a feeling that it wouldn't give those full screens after 10 000 spins in one go.

And RTP is 97%!

 

[trancemonkey]

Is Pretty Kitty (MG) corrupt slot?

No full screen cats il last 13 sessions. Full cats provide wins from 405 to 810x.

Yesterday and today I had super-long sessions: 3500, 2135, 5084 and 2048 spins. In other 9 session I could gather some 2000 spins.

It is around 15 000 spins!!!!

According to my unprecise statistic full screen of cats comes every 1132nd spin...

I understand that slot can be cold, I understand that we are sometimes greedy, but this slot can easily give you 300-400 completely empty spins and don't leat you near your starting balance. But there should be some turning point!!! I had a feeling that it wouldn't give those full screens after 10 000 spins in one go.

And RTP is 97%!

If a full screen of cats pays between 405x and 810x (i thought the max was 933x?) and it happens every 1132nd game, then the total RTP from a full screen of cats would be between 35% and 70% - i can't believe for one second that 35% of the total RTP comes from one spin every 1132nd game - let alone any more than that?! I would imagine a full screen would happen every 15,000 spins at best...

 

[gambyx7]

If a full screen of cats pays between 405x and 810x (i thought the max was 933x?) and it happens every 1132nd game, then the total RTP from a full screen of cats would be between 35% and 70% - i can't believe for one second that 35% of the total RTP comes from one spin every 1132nd game - let alone any more than that?! I would imagine a full screen would happen every 15,000 spins at best...

I do have to admit that last 30-40 days that slot did enable me to redraw some nice cash amounts and that RTP was way, way over 97%....but stil such cold streaks are very suspicious. I don't know have you ever tried this slot, it is one of the wierdest for sure...

Max win in base game are persian cats (810x)...this came in 5th spin in session...
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Max win in free spiins is 1012x (full screen of wilds)...I did once get 1125x because 4OAK wilds matched persian stack on 5th reel and before that I had also one over 100x win. That session was my best session ever because in next 200 spins I got two full cat screens...from my starting balnce 100 I manegd to get around 1400.

I guess that slot is simply ridiculously streaky...but last two days were simply too much...

 

[trancemonkey]

I do have to admit that last 30-40 days that slot did enable me to redraw some nice cash amounts and that RTP was way, way over 97%....but stil such cold streaks are very suspicious. I don't know have you ever tried this slot, it is one of the wierdest for sure...

Max win in base game are persian cats (810x)...this came in 5th spin in session...
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Max win in free spiins is 1012x (full screen of wilds)...I did once get 1125x because 4OAK wilds matched persian stack on 5th reel and before that I had also one over 100x win. That session was my best session ever because in next 200 spins I got two full cat screens...from my starting balnce 100 I manegd to get around 1400.

I guess that slot is simply ridiculously streaky...but last two days were simply too much...

Sounds like you've had some hot streaks too though - you can't ALWAYS win... it's horrible when a game goes cold, but that's just the way random works... sometimes they are hot sometimes they are cold and sometimes they are just "meh"...

All down to luck - but it is a volatile game, so i'd expect it to be "streaky"

 

[gambyx7]

Sounds like you've had some hot streaks too though - you can't ALWAYS win... it's horrible when a game goes cold, but that's just the way random works... sometimes they are hot sometimes they are cold and sometimes they are just "meh"...

All down to luck - but it is a volatile game, so i'd expect it to be "streaky"

I know all that, but THAT kind of cold streak I have never seen on any slot (and I was complaining on GOT after 1000 mostley dead spins). At least to return a bit...if I started with 1300 and it swallows till 1000, I would expect at least to return me to 1100. Some losses are simply unexceptable

 

[trancemonkey]

I know all that, but THAT kind of cold streak I have never seen on any slot (and I was complaining on GOT after 1000 mostley dead spins). At least to return a bit...if I started with 1300 and it swallows till 1000, I would expect at least to return me to 1100. Some losses are simply unexceptable

I agree - but runs like that can happen on the best of games... if games WEREN'T random, then i would expect them not to do it... but as they are, then you can just be unlucky for prolonged periods...

People seem to think that runs like this are proof games are not random, but in actual fact it's proof that they ARE random! Because if they were controlled, we would never control a game in such a way as to have a bad run like that - as it's likely to put you off the game!

 

[gambyx7]

Maicoon came finally...spin 1468, nearly smashed 100 deposit, but it lasted long enough...lets hope for more...but not know.

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Now, there is interesting thing about this slot - jackpot thermometer. OK, it should not be consider seriously, but
I prefer to start when numbers are lower (in screen above was also the case, index was 234). After 10 minutes it raised to
999 and stayed there until the end of the session. And it is still there. I have experience that it falls from 700 to 300, or from
343 to 123, but never that it dropped from 999. It can stay for hours and low numbers move very, very quickly.
I guess it has to do with crazy variance of this game...

 

[Jono777]

Those "Jackpot Thermometers" are meaningless.

No bearing on RTP, payouts, no anything, sorry

 

[gambyx7]

Those "Jackpot Thermometers" are meaningless.

No bearing on RTP, payouts, no anything, sorry

I could agree, but in my statistic "lower thermo index" in 90% means that I made profit in this sessions.

This evenig almost copy of afternoon session, now siamese cats came at spin 1461 (7 spins earlier). Came in FS which resulted in 595x.
Sadly, I did ruined my balance wiith completely stupid playing Lions Pride so basicly I had to start from 100 (500 at the moment).

I hope that anomaly from last two days is far behind.

 

[richmcd]

Hi Trancemonkey. Thanks for running this thread. I've read about 50 pages of it and it's really been fascinating. I've got a few questions myself, if you're up for answering them. No problems if not! (And sorry if you've already covered this - I didn't see anything like it, but I haven't had time to read everything)

I'm a writer and freelance developmental editor, and I occasionally get asked for help on some really strange and fascinating projects. I'm particularly interested in the unusual ways and places people use storytelling and theming in entertainment (theme park rides, miniature golf courses, slots, etc.).

So I'd like to know more about the development process for a slot. Do you get given a theme, or a license, or an idea to work with and then suggest a slot design? Or do you suggest a mechanic or a whole slot design and then another team matches a theme to it? How much back and forth is there in making the slot match the theme?

Lots of slots have little or no link between the theme and the mechanics. Sometimes that's fine, but often it seems like a total waste - like the GoT slot, which is fun but completely wastes the license.

Sometimes the thematic/mechanical link is obvious, like Robin Hood stashing coins in treasure chests, or the Grail Quest bonus progression from Avalon II, etc. Other times it's more subtle. I particularly like The Invisible Man for this, even if the slot itself could use some balancing. The chase theme means the wandering/colliding wilds make a lot of thematic sense, in a way they never did in Jack and the Beanstalk. And the theme also meshes well with the pay both ways mechanic, with each side representing a character. And the escalating bonus games give a good sense of tension. I think it's a really clever design.

But I'm rambling on. As a slot designer, how much input do you have into this kind of thing?

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Trancemonkey. Thanks for running this thread. I've read about 50 pages of it and it's really been fascinating. I've got a few questions myself, if you're up for answering them. No problems if not! (And sorry if you've already covered this - I didn't see anything like it, but I haven't had time to read everything)

I'm a writer and freelance developmental editor, and I occasionally get asked for help on some really strange and fascinating projects. I'm particularly interested in the unusual ways and places people use storytelling and theming in entertainment (theme park rides, miniature golf courses, slots, etc.).

So I'd like to know more about the development process for a slot. Do you get given a theme, or a license, or an idea to work with and then suggest a slot design? Or do you suggest a mechanic or a whole slot design and then another team matches a theme to it? How much back and forth is there in making the slot match the theme?

Lots of slots have little or no link between the theme and the mechanics. Sometimes that's fine, but often it seems like a total waste - like the GoT slot, which is fun but completely wastes the license.

Sometimes the thematic/mechanical link is obvious, like Robin Hood stashing coins in treasure chests, or the Grail Quest bonus progression from Avalon II, etc. Other times it's more subtle. I particularly like The Invisible Man for this, even if the slot itself could use some balancing. The chase theme means the wandering/colliding wilds make a lot of thematic sense, in a way they never did in Jack and the Beanstalk. And the theme also meshes well with the pay both ways mechanic, with each side representing a character. And the escalating bonus games give a good sense of tension. I think it's a really clever design.

But I'm rambling on. As a slot designer, how much input do you have into this kind of thing?

Great question....

Some companies roles for producers / designers differ but for me the answer is I have total input. The idea for the theme, the design, the maths, the sounds... They are all my responsibility and it is down to me to direct the team to make it all fit together as I have total responsibility for the game.

 

[Jono777]

Great question....

Some companies roles for producers / designers differ but for me the answer is I have total input. The idea for the theme, the design, the maths, the sounds... They are all my responsibility and it is down to me to direct the team to make it all fit together as I have total responsibility for the game.

Now that perfect answer, together with a great question as you say poses another....

IF (and a mighty big If) we were to open a thread about a realistic new slot (not one with 1000% RTP ) and use it to get input from players here....

Weedle out the nonsense and rubbish and gather the good, what would the chances be of it getting at least considered.....

Cheers!

 

[trancemonkey]

Now that perfect answer, together with a great question as you say poses another....

IF (and a mighty big If) we were to open a thread about a realistic new slot (not one with 1000% RTP ) and use it to get input from players here....

Weedle out the nonsense and rubbish and gather the good, what would the chances be of it getting at least considered.....

Cheers!

If the idea was good I could pitch it when I next have a slot assigned.... When that would be I don't know as I've just had another slot assigned and the idea accepted...

Although because this is a public forum and competitors are active in here it might be impossible due to restrictions on what I can say with regards to future projects...

 

[richmcd]

If the idea was good I could pitch it when I next have a slot assigned.... When that would be I don't know as I've just had another slot assigned and the idea accepted...

Although because this is a public forum and competitors are active in here it might be impossible due to restrictions on what I can say with regards to future projects...

Huh. So they assign you a project and then you pitch a variety of ideas? That's interesting. I'd have assumed there'd have been more design control coming from the top.

I don't want to push the boundaries of what you're allowed to talk about, but can you tell us any of the slots you've designed? If that's too awkward, perhaps you could point to a slot you DIDN'T design, but admire, and explain what you like about it, from a design/maths/both perspective? Obviously you'd have to make some assumptions, but I guess you'd have a lot more insight than us.

I've already talked about Invisible Man's design, but as another example, I think Reel Rush is very interesting. I obviously don't know the specifics of the maths running these things, but I do have a background in maths, so I have some intuition about what would/wouldn't be possible. Assuming the slot works as it seems to (each re-spin independent, with the reels always the same*, rather than a pre-determined result when the bet is placed or different reels as the play space gets bigger) it feels like the maths that went into balancing it must be really something. Getting the slot to the point where it hits enough to not be frustrating, gets to the bonus enough but not too often, has a top symbol that really pays rather than just janking the whole paytable AND has an RTP that falls within the acceptable range while keeping all the numbers the player sees round and simple seems like it would be really tricky to achieve.

Comparing it to Phoenix Sun is interesting. They're similar concepts, but Reel Rush feels much more elegant. It doesn't need special wilds or huge stacks of blocking symbols to get the results it needs. (Apologies if that's one of yours. )



*I appreciate that "reels always the same" is actually very broad. There's a ton of techniques I can imagine which would still be random but which couldn't be replicated in the real world. E.g., I assume a lot of slots use some (probably layered) version of the Bier Haus keg reveal behind the scenes, where "these symbols are all the same, but what they are is determined separately". Otherwise it would be hard to generate those "near miss" spins where you've got matching symbols on reels 1, 2, 4 and 5, but a miss on reel 3. Even with these tricks, I still think Reel Rush seems impressive.

 

[trancemonkey]

Huh. So they assign you a project and then you pitch a variety of ideas? That's interesting. I'd have assumed there'd have been more design control coming from the top.

I don't want to push the boundaries of what you're allowed to talk about, but can you tell us any of the slots you've designed? If that's too awkward, perhaps you could point to a slot you DIDN'T design, but admire, and explain what you like about it, from a design/maths/both perspective? Obviously you'd have to make some assumptions, but I guess you'd have a lot more insight than us.

I've already talked about Invisible Man's design, but as another example, I think Reel Rush is very interesting. I obviously don't know the specifics of the maths running these things, but I do have a background in maths, so I have some intuition about what would/wouldn't be possible. Assuming the slot works as it seems to (each re-spin independent, with the reels always the same*, rather than a pre-determined result when the bet is placed or different reels as the play space gets bigger) it feels like the maths that went into balancing it must be really something. Getting the slot to the point where it hits enough to not be frustrating, gets to the bonus enough but not too often, has a top symbol that really pays rather than just janking the whole paytable AND has an RTP that falls within the acceptable range while keeping all the numbers the player sees round and simple seems like it would be really tricky to achieve.

Comparing it to Phoenix Sun is interesting. They're similar concepts, but Reel Rush feels much more elegant. It doesn't need special wilds or huge stacks of blocking symbols to get the results it needs. (Apologies if that's one of yours. )



*I appreciate that "reels always the same" is actually very broad. There's a ton of techniques I can imagine which would still be random but which couldn't be replicated in the real world. E.g., I assume a lot of slots use some (probably layered) version of the Bier Haus keg reveal behind the scenes, where "these symbols are all the same, but what they are is determined separately". Otherwise it would be hard to generate those "near miss" spins where you've got matching symbols on reels 1, 2, 4 and 5, but a miss on reel 3. Even with these tricks, I still think Reel Rush seems impressive.

Within the realms of what I can talk about: There are X number of games that need to be made each year for different markets. Some internal studios are better at some types of games than others so would be more likely to get a slot which suits them... But basically it is can be simple as "we need a game for the global market" but sometimes could be more specific if the market or the business had certain needs. For example, let's say Aristocrat bought out a game that was doing phenomenally well.. we might be tasked with coming up with an idea that is similar (a predator) to that game. But remits are for the most part very wide, which I like. Don't forget I'm a player as well so I know the trends and part of my job is predicting future trends too...

With regards to the other question .. I'll give a longer answer when I'm not my phone but Reel Rush would probably be quite easy to do mathematically. There are some very very complex maths in games... One of my current projects is very complicated mathematically... But there are also some very simple games too. Games don't have to be complex to be good ... But the reason most of the time for the complexity is the granularity of control it gives us when tweaking the maths to make it play well..

 

[richmcd]

But the reason most of the time for the complexity is the granularity of control it gives us when tweaking the maths to make it play well...

Yes, I suppose that was my assumption with Reel Rush. It seems like it'd be easy enough to make a version of it that ticks SOME of the boxes (basic mechanics, RTP, etc.), but getting everything right (not too many dead spins on average, no weird payouts like 2.35x needed to make the maths work, etc.) seems like a tricky balancing act. But maybe it's just deceptively difficult because I'm only seeing it from the outside.

Out of interest - and I'll stop bombarding you with questions and let you actually answer one after this! - how often are features added just as a way to balance the maths? Random features are fun, so I can see why you'd add them anyway, but also sometimes it smacks of "We designed this slot and the RTP came out at 93.5%, so we need an extra 1.5% payback in there. Let's stick in some random wins and multipliers!"

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes, I suppose that was my assumption with Reel Rush. It seems like it'd be easy enough to make a version of it that ticks SOME of the boxes (basic mechanics, RTP, etc.), but getting everything right (not too many dead spins on average, no weird payouts like 2.35x needed to make the maths work, etc.) seems like a tricky balancing act. But maybe it's just deceptively difficult because I'm only seeing it from the outside.

Out of interest - and I'll stop bombarding you with questions and let you actually answer one after this! - how often are features added just as a way to balance the maths? Random features are fun, so I can see why you'd add them anyway, but also sometimes it smacks of "We designed this slot and the RTP came out at 93.5%, so we need an extra 1.5% payback in there. Let's stick in some random wins and multipliers!"

For me... Never. I've taken features out of games during development in order to make the game play better. Don't forget... Any game can me made to hit any percentage. There are a LOT of levers we can use but I would never add a feature just for the sake of it and nor would I remove one for the sake of it either. It has to make sense for the game.

 

[ricky]

For me... Never. I've taken features out of games during development in order to make the game play better. Don't forget... Any game can me made to hit any percentage. There are a LOT of levers we can use but I would never add a feature just for the sake of it and nor would I remove one for the sake of it either. It has to make sense for the game.

do you know of any playtech,wms,sg,barcrest,netent,igt,microgaming slot that has a good average bonus win?

 

[trancemonkey]

do you know of any playtech,wms,sg,barcrest,netent,igt,microgaming slot that has a good average bonus win?

Depends what you mean by good... Most WMS features on the volatile games average around 35x

A general rule of thumb is that the less often the feature, the higher the average...

 

[interlog]

Depends what you mean by good... Most WMS features on the volatile games average around 35x

A general rule of thumb is that the less often the feature, the higher the average...

Unless you're talking Bonanza!

 

[trancemonkey]

Unless you're talking Bonanza!

Bonanzas feature is rare with a high average as far as I know... slot tracker has it at 94x every 477 games

 

[interlog]

Bonanzas feature is rare with a high average as far as I know... slot tracker has it at 94x every 477 games

It would have been worse if it had tracked my performance on this slot, or better if it had tracked that 14,000x win I guess.

You say it is dangerous to draw conclusions from not many spins, so it is perhaps also dangerous to draw conclusions from this slot tracker programme.

I guess only the game servers will give you a truthful answer.

 

[trancemonkey]

It would have been worse if it had tracked my performance on this slot, or better if it had tracked that 14,000x win I guess.

You say it is dangerous to draw conclusions from not many spins, so it is perhaps also dangerous to draw conclusions from this slot tracker programme.

I guess only the game servers will give you a truthful answer.

Indeed... I am going off the community stats though which is around 350k games. So its probably somewhere near the mark... But on a game that volatile it could be quite off still.

 

[interlog]

Indeed... I am going off the community stats though which is around 350k games. So its probably somewhere near the mark... But on a game that volatile it could be quite off still.

Well that is just it. From most games you can work out the max pay. But you can't on Bonanza with the "unlimited" multiplier and "unlimited" free spins. Maybe that 14,000x bonus round is just the bottom of the barrel in terms of potential (who knows) so no wonder you have to wait such an awful long time for the bonus rounds, most of which pay less than 50x most of the time.

Which begs the question (that maybe you can answer) how did they exactly work out the TRTP because theoretically if it was truly random you could get to a 50x multiplier with all the diamonds in view.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well that is just it. From most games you can work out the max pay. But you can't on Bonanza with the "unlimited" multiplier and "unlimited" free spins. Maybe that 14,000x bonus round is just the bottom of the barrel in terms of potential (who knows) so no wonder you have to wait such an awful long time for the bonus rounds, most of which pay less than 50x most of the time.

Which begs the question (that maybe you can answer) how did they exactly work out the TRTP because theoretically if it was truly random you could get to a 50x multiplier with all the diamonds in view.

When you do a game like this you simulate it for as many games as feasible. For example, I would probably ask for a 10 billion game run. This is more than the game will likely ever reach so it's a reasonable amount and will likely show the practical maximum, if not the theoretical.

 

[interlog]

When you do a game like this you simulate it for as many games as feasible. For example, I would probably ask for a 10 billion game run. This is more than the game will likely ever reach so it's a reasonable amount and will likely show the practical maximum, if not the theoretical.

Ok, say for arguments sake they done that and it did give that 50x multiplier with all of the diamonds. Would they then go back to the game and compensate it by making it less volatile by removing some top symbols and then having to rerun 10 billion games?

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, say for arguments sake they done that and it did give that 50x multiplier with all of the diamonds. Would they then go back to the game and compensate it by making it less volatile by removing some top symbols and then having to rerun 10 billion games?

Well, if it hits the desired RTP then they wouldn't have to... but a maximum liability of that kind of prize would be something most casinos would not want to be exposed to, so I would guess that in that case, yes they might. Outside of progressives, casinos don't really want max liabilities of 14,000x - hence the low-ish stakes on the game. My guess is that 20,000x would be the biggest on this game - otherwise most casinos wouldn't touch it.

Most casinos have max payout rules (Hills and Corals are 250k) so if Bonanza did have a 20k win in there they would be likely capping max bet at around £12.50 on those sites. Obviously some capping is allowable so maybe the max bet would be higher than that but not much higher.

A low max bet means the game will struggle to make as much money for the casino as the big bets account for the vast majority of the casinos income

 

[interlog]

Well, if it hits the desired RTP then they wouldn't have to... but a maximum liability of that kind of prize would be something most casinos would not want to be exposed to, so I would guess that in that case, yes they might. Outside of progressives, casinos don't really want max liabilities of 14,000x - hence the low-ish stakes on the game. My guess is that 20,000x would be the biggest on this game - otherwise most casinos wouldn't touch it.

Most casinos have max payout rules (Hills and Corals are 250k) so if Bonanza did have a 20k win in there they would be likely capping max bet at around £12.50 on those sites. Obviously some capping is allowable so maybe the max bet would be higher than that but not much higher.

A low max bet means the game will struggle to make as much money for the casino as the big bets account for the vast majority of the casinos income

But the thing with Bonanza is that - according to the developer - there is no limit to the wins. I mean, on the very first spin you could get that bonus round with the 50x multiplier with all of the diamonds making that 20,000x win peanuts.

And that is why a lot of people are suspicious about how slots are programmed because most think there is a cap build in which then in turn doesn't make the slot truly random.

 

[trancemonkey]

But the thing with Bonanza is that - according to the developer - there is no limit to the wins. I mean, on the very first spin you could get that bonus round with the 50x multiplier with all of the diamonds making that 20,000x win peanuts.

And that is why a lot of people are suspicious about how slots are programmed because most think there is a cap build in which then in turn doesn't make the slot truly random.

You're misunderstanding statistics. I did a game called Fabric 4 which, theoretically had unlimited free spins. I could therefore have claimed, rightfully so, that the win potential is also unlimited, just like bonanza. However whilst this is true in theory, in practice the chance of getting 50 diamonds at 50x is so small (but not zero) that it is extremely unlikely to happen. This is why, on games where the maximum win can not be calculated we do 10 billion game runs to see what the maximum practical win would be.

Most good casinos don't mind if some player hits a 1 in 10 billion chance prize of 50,000x (for example) because it's free advertising for them and good publicity - but what they DO want to know is that the chance of that happening is so small that even if they got caught by it, it would likely never happen again.

Remember - just because something is statistically possible doesn't mean it is likely to happen. And most casinos impose a win cap (not the game providers).

Feel free to PM me or ask for further info on here if you're still not sure what it means...

 

[nikantw]

But the thing with Bonanza is that - according to the developer - there is no limit to the wins. I mean, on the very first spin you could get that bonus round with the 50x multiplier with all of the diamonds making that 20,000x win peanuts.

And that is why a lot of people are suspicious about how slots are programmed because most think there is a cap build in which then in turn doesn't make the slot truly random.

From legal point, it is totally random. That is the x bet result you get. And all random x bet results add up to the designed TRTP. From the legislation point of view is 100% ok.

What you mean and I 100% agree with you, is that we are allowed to think that there is 117k way diamond possibility. And that is 99.99999% not true. And that should be illegal. If 117k way diamonds in Bonanza fs is possible, then I apologize to them. But, I have yet to see more than 20 ways so…..

Take Buffalo Blitz. You are led to think a full screen of buffaloes and diamonds is possible, it is not. You can at list see what the reel can drop with other games. With Bonanza you can’t. Legislation should force developers to provide info about max potential of the game and chances of that happening.

 

[trancemonkey]

From legal point, it is totally random. That is the x bet result you get. And all random x bet results add up to the designed TRTP. From the legislation point of vew is 100% ok.

What you mean and I 100% agree with you, is that we are allowed to think that there is 117k way diamond possibility. And that is 99.99999% not true. And that should be illegal. If 117k way diamonds in Bonanza fs is possible, then I apologize to them. But, I have yet to see more than 20 ways so…..

Take Buffalo Blitz. You are led to think a full screen of buffaloes and diamonds is possible, it is not. You can at list see what the reel can drop with other games. With Bonanza you can’t. Legislation should force developers to provide info about max potential of the game and chances of that happening.

I agree to a point - but there is already legislation which states that the reelbands you see during the spin must be indicative of the wins you can get. For example if on a reel spin you saw 4 rhinos on each reel spin through, they MUST be able to land in view.

Admittedly this rule is not currently in the online technical standards as far as I know, must we certainly are not allowed to Mislead the player - and yet I know some that do.

The thing is, both the games you speak about don't mislead you. On Bonanza you'll never have seen a stack of Diamonds on each reel during the spin as there is no spin... you have inferred that there is the possibility. The game doesn't say it's possible nor hint at it. You can't have rules against every possible thing a player may incorrectly think. You're allowed to think whatever you want...

BTW - In Singapore you do have to state the hit frequency of some of the wins...

 

[nikantw]

I agree to a point - but there is already legislation which states that the reelbands you see during the spin must be indicative of the wins you can get. For example if on a reel spin you saw 4 rhinos on each reel spin through, they MUST be able to land in view.

Admittedly this rule is not currently in the online technical standards as far as I know, must we certainly are not allowed to Mislead the player - and yet I know some that do.

The thing is, both the games you speak about don't mislead you. On Bonanza you'll never have seen a stack of Diamonds on each reel during the spin as there is no spin... you have inferred that there is the possibility. The game doesn't say it's possible nor hint at it. You can't have rules against every possible thing a player may incorrectly think. You're allowed to think whatever you want...

BTW - In Singapore you do have to state the hit frequency of some of the wins...

Thank you. I remember that about Singapore

About Bonanza, I have made a pic adding stacked diamonds that have actually landed in each reel in bonus round



That combination must be possible for legal reasons, right? Do you see what that pays? Do you think it is possible?
And we have seen higher multiplier than 28. With a 20 bet (max bet)?
To get ahead of you there is no cap in winnings from VS and others.

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you. I remember that about Singapore

About Bonanza, I have made a pic adding stacked diamonds that have actually landed in each reel in bonus round

View attachment 80292

That combination must be possible for legal reasons, right? Do you see what that pays? Do you think it is possible?
And we have seen higher multiplier than 28.

No it doesn't have to be possible, legally, under the current ukgc standards. It's kind of the same way a full screen of bars or bells or diamonds isn't possible on Twin Spin... But at least you can see the reel spin on that game.

Cascading games don't have a reel spin so therefore there is nothing to show. BTG will have multiple different reel sets in the game I'm sure... Some may have diamonds attached on one reel, and some a different reel. But there may be none with stacks on all 5 reels.

I'm not sure what I think about the fairness or not of this... I could see an argument that it wasn't fair, but equally the game isn't telling you it's possible... You are assuming it is...

 

[trancemonkey]

Also bear in mind that even if that reel picture had a chance of landing that chance could be astronomically small... All the law states is the chance must not be zero...