Ask me anything (about slots)!

[BlaCGaming]

Hey there, thanks for answering all these questions

My questions are:

1.
Am I more likely to hit big (wildline on Dead or Alive) on a Casino I have done more spins as opposed to a casino I have not yet played it at all?

So if I made like 100k spins on dead or alive and never got the wildline (which is the case sadly), should I keep spinning at this casino because it has to get me to 97% RTP eventually and hit the wildline? Or could I make another 500m spins without a line if I`m unlucky and I am better off trying multiple casinos?

2.
If the results are supposed to be unpredictable, why is there such a large amount of reel 1&2 Scatters in Dead Or Alive, from which I tend to predict 99% of the time whether its gonna hit or not? If the 3rd reel gets a scatter I obviously hit, but if it doesn´t, its 99% of the time not going to hit on the last 2 reels. If I got that result a few times within a million spins, I could understand, but I get this every 20-40 spins. That is not normal and I would consider this atleast an "anomaly". Keep in mind, this is the only combination that allows me to predict the result this accurately. I feel like the 2 scatters should appear in many variations of different reels for a truly random result.

3.
On games with avalanches, is the result already determined after the spin, or does each avalance produce a new random result (Gonzos Quest as an example)?


Another thing, why do some casinos chose to not offer a certain game from a provider? I have noticed that CasinoHeroes offer a lot of different providers but misses some of their games, such as Playboy or 300 Shields.
Why do you think that is? Surely its not licensing of those specific games if the other ones are allowed and the games in question are offered everywhere else.

Lastly, what reason is there to include horrible results in slots? You get a set from the rng, for example 2 scatters in the first two reels and then none (if the scatters appear mixed, like reel 2 and 4, its much less horrible, because the players "think" its less likely to hit anyway). Or worse, the Sarah feature that fills the wilds on the 4th and 5th reel but you can already see from the start that its not going to form a win. Why does this exist? There is no benefit, since it only enrages players and I don´t think it would be much of a hassle to just remove this as a possible outcome regardless of payout (for 2 scatters), because the payout can still be achieved with different reel positions. Are slot devs just evil and like to laugh at streamers or dunovers getting their rage on?



Thanks a lot!

 

[quber]

Hey there, thanks for answering all these questions

My questions are:

1.
Am I more likely to hit big (wildline on Dead or Alive) on a Casino I have done more spins as opposed to a casino I have not yet played it at all?

So if I made like 100k spins on dead or alive and never got the wildline (which is the case sadly), should I keep spinning at this casino because it has to get me to 97% RTP eventually and hit the wildline? Or could I make another 500m spins without a line if I`m unlucky and I am better off trying multiple casinos?

2.
If the results are supposed to be unpredictable, why is there such a large amount of reel 1&2 Scatters in Dead Or Alive, from which I tend to predict 99% of the time whether its gonna hit or not? If the 3rd reel gets a scatter I obviously hit, but if it doesn´t, its 99% of the time not going to hit on the last 2 reels. If I got that result a few times within a million spins, I could understand, but I get this every 20-40 spins. That is not normal and I would consider this atleast an "anomaly". Keep in mind, this is the only combination that allows me to predict the result this accurately. I feel like the 2 scatters should appear in many variations of different reels for a truly random result.

3.
On games with avalanches, is the result already determined after the spin, or does each avalance produce a new random result (Gonzos Quest as an example)?


Another thing, why do some casinos chose to not offer a certain game from a provider? I have noticed that CasinoHeroes offer a lot of different providers but misses some of their games, such as Playboy or 300 Shields.
Why do you think that is? Surely its not licensing of those specific games if the other ones are allowed and the games in question are offered everywhere else.

Lastly, what reason is there to include horrible results in slots? You get a set from the rng, for example 2 scatters in the first two reels and then none (if the scatters appear mixed, like reel 2 and 4, its much less horrible, because the players "think" its less likely to hit anyway). Or worse, the Sarah feature that fills the wilds on the 4th and 5th reel but you can already see from the start that its not going to form a win. Why does this exist? There is no benefit, since it only enrages players and I don´t think it would be much of a hassle to just remove this as a possible outcome regardless of payout (for 2 scatters), because the payout can still be achieved with different reel positions. Are slot devs just evil and like to laugh at streamers or dunovers getting their rage on?



Thanks a lot!

1, Makes no difference where you play, each spin is independent

2, this is down to the distribution of the symbols on each reel. if reels 1 and 2 have 4 scatters each then you will see these more often than reels 3 and 4 if they only have one scatter each. The reel strips are not identical.

3, Don't know

 

[trancemonkey]

If removing the option to play with less than maximum lines, makes it easier to calculate the TRTP etc, during development, which is fair enough as far as the development of new games goes.

Why then is the option being taken away from existing games when changing them to HTML5.

Supposedly the maths, reel strips and paytables haven't been changed. So they should already have been proven to attain their TRTP from the development of the original flash versions WITH the lines option.

Not sure - seems a strange decision to remove it...

 

[trancemonkey]

1, Makes no difference where you play, each spin is independent

2, this is down to the distribution of the symbols on each reel. if reels 1 and 2 have 4 scatters each then you will see these more often than reels 3 and 4 if they only have one scatter each. The reel strips are not identical.

3, Don't know

Quber - you're answers for 1 and 2 are spot on...

Re: Avalanches... again, many different ways of doing these. Most common would be that when you press spin, the server sends the outcome of the first "spin" along with all the avalanches after it.

Re: Casinos missing certain games: You would think every online casino would want every slot from every provider right? Game selection could be about volatility (max liability) - both of those games you mention have massive max liabilities... Captian Rizk might be able to answer this better than I can...

Re: Horrible results... Everyone loves to hear Dunover getting his rage on. I watch his videos to see what new swear words he's invented this time! In some cases, the "horrible" results you're referring to might be impossible to avoid - i'm not sure what you mean by the Sarah feature...

 

[dionysus]

i'm not sure what you mean by the Sarah feature...

I assume this is the 4th feature in free spins for Immortal Romance.

 

[BlaCGaming]

Quber - you're answers for 1 and 2 are spot on...

Re: Avalanches... again, many different ways of doing these. Most common would be that when you press spin, the server sends the outcome of the first "spin" along with all the avalanches after it.

Re: Casinos missing certain games: You would think every online casino would want every slot from every provider right? Game selection could be about volatility (max liability) - both of those games you mention have massive max liabilities... Captian Rizk might be able to answer this better than I can...

Re: Horrible results... Everyone loves to hear Dunover getting his rage on. I watch his videos to see what new swear words he's invented this time! In some cases, the "horrible" results you're referring to might be impossible to avoid - i'm not sure what you mean by the Sarah feature...

Thanks a lot!

What I mean by Sarah feature is the 25 free spins feature you get on Immortal Romance, where you have a spreading wild in the middle and it can spread to all reels giving you wins, but if reel 1&2 dont form a win, you know its a bust, you can´t skip the painful wild appearances

I would be very interested about the missing games, since they have other games that can payout just as much if not more, Dead or Alive, Cazino Zeppelin etc. So I am looking forward to input from the Captain on this one

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks a lot!

What I mean by Sarah feature is the 25 free spins feature you get on Immortal Romance, where you have a spreading wild in the middle and it can spread to all reels giving you wins, but if reel 1&2 dont form a win, you know its a bust, you can´t skip the painful wild appearances

I would be very interested about the missing games, since they have other games that can payout just as much if not more, Dead or Alive, Cazino Zeppelin etc. So I am looking forward to input from the Captain on this one

Ahh yeah - the problem with those kind of features is that the wild are randomly determined, as is the outcome of the spin and they two are separate independent decisions. In this game, it would impossible to avoid it.

 

[hedgehok]

When you design a slot mathematically which is required to have an RTP of 96-97% (let's say your employer tells you this parameter and gives you freedom otherwise) how do you proceed in order to get to this figure?

Do you first think of the highest paying combination(s) and work your way down to increasingly less paying combinations and finally distribute the necessary probabilities to fit the RTP-window? For example by simulation and if it's outside the required RTP-window you slightly increase/decrease the likelihood of a certain combination by replacing a symbol with another on a reel.

Thanks!

 

[Tengil]

Is there any form of regulation/guidelines how much the slot is allowed to misrepresent the odds of winning?
Like how much more near misses is the game allowed to show than should be statistically possible. It seems to get more and more ridiculous every year.

The reason is of course obvious

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[nikantw]

Gonzo's Quest and Jungle Jim El Dorado. How this can happen? A 100% copy paste of a popular game from one big company to another?

 

[trancemonkey]

Is there any form of regulation/guidelines how much the slot is allowed to misrepresent the odds of winning?
Like how much more near misses is the game allowed to show than should be statistically possible. It seems to get more and more ridiculous every year.

The reason is of course obvious

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Almost all jurisdictions prohibit forcing a near miss...although quite often this only affects the top symbol (highest paying).

Adding a bonus symbol above the reels (so you can see the bottom of it) to make it look like you almost got the bonus is, in some jurisdictions, allowed.

I've never done this but I know it goes on

 

[trancemonkey]

Gonzo's Quest and Jungle Jim El Dorado. How this can happen? A 100% copy paste of a popular game from one big company to another?

Well, you can't copyright or trademark a game design in a lot of countries... So there is no specific rule against doing this from a legal standpoint. As long as they haven't stolen the maths....

 

[nikantw]

Well, you can't copyright or trademark a game design... So there is no specific rule against doing this from a legal standpoint. As long as they haven't stolen the maths....

Don't get it. You work for months on a slot and you can't protect it? You (the "thief") have the design, see tha paytable, have a few k spins and you have an easy starting point and a slot ready in a week!

 

[Simmo!]

Don't get it. You work for months on a slot and you can't protect it? You (the "thief") have the design, see tha paytable, have a few k spins and you have an easy starting point and a slot ready in a week!

I as always amazed that this goes on. But it must be nearly impossible to police and if you could trademark the look and feel of a game, the industry would be in a constant state of litigation and players would ultimately be the ones that suffer, so it's probably just as well.

It would be like the mobile phone industry where Samsung and Apple are in constant legal battles the result of which means a) we pay more than we should for phones, b) they aren't as sophisticated as they would be otherwise and c) our choices are far more limited.

 

[trancemonkey]

I as always amazed that this goes on. But it must be nearly impossible to police and if you could trademark the look and feel of a game, the industry would be in a constant state of litigation and players would ultimately be the ones that suffer, so it's probably just as well.

It would be like the mobile phone industry where Samsung and Apple are in constant legal battles the result of which means a) we pay more than we should for phones, b) they aren't as sophisticated as they would be otherwise and c) our choices are far more limited.

American patent law is crazy... you can patent pretty much anything in he US. European patent law is very different and, in my opinion, better.

Basically if you copied verbatim the game including the graphics or name then of course you would be "passing off" so you can't do that. But NetEnt didn't invent cascading reels, and that's all Gonzos is. It would be like saying Dead of Alive (NetEnt) is a copy of Miss Kitty (Aristocrat) which was a locking wilds game.

Whatever you think of copies like that, they aren't illegal and not should they be in my opinion. (As long as they haven't stolen the maths and they've done it themselves)

 

[trancemonkey]

Don't get it. You work for months on a slot and you can't protect it? You (the "thief") have the design, see tha paytable, have a few k spins and you have an easy starting point and a slot ready in a week!

Yup... pretty much. Although a bit longer than a week.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Hey , haven't read all the thread so sorry if something like this has been asked before. When designing a slot I assume your primary goal is to make a slot which makes the most money as possible . So how much psychology is used in it's design? And can you give some examples ? When I look at slot design I see a lot of possible psychological tricks and subliminals . Few quick examples are small written messages encouraging you to spin again , different audios depending on if you higher or lower bets plus if a game is playing pretty dead then the audio will go very low sort of hoping you don't notice the money going and then when you hit a win or 2 the volume increases to draw your attention to the fact etc . Also sexual imagery like if there's a slot about witches you can guarantee the witches will be sexy witches showing a lot of leg/cleavage I just find it interesting how much effort goes into "seducing" players into spinning and also keeping them in a somewhat trancelike state so they keep spinning... things like bonus teases where the player doesn't actually get anything at all but he feels like he was "close" so that encourages a few more spins
And does that awful Novomatic noise on every slot scramble the brain or something so you keep spinning despite not having got the feature in over 3 months of play

 

[Reefer]

Why did all the casinos get rid of the AWP type amusements I won £2500 from a 50p spin on the geegees slot one night

 

[Harry_BKK]

Haven't posted in a while, nor responded to your post that answered my question, nor have I read the whole thread but, and this is with all due respect to you coming forward to answer questions in this thread:

1. I asked what is in the data packet going between player - casino - game server - casino - player....you answered bet size, coin size, amount of lines etc.

Questions:

What exactly is the etc? Why is there no transparency on what part of my personal data gets transmitted?
Why does a game server need to know the bet size? It is random after all and supposedly independent of the bet size, so why do they need to know how much i am betting?


2. You said something in line: "we do not want problem gamblers as they won't be return customers at some point"

Sorry and again with all due respect, your industry depends to nearly 100% on addicted gamblers and punters. The recreational player, as the industry doesn't stop highlighting they are after, will not keep thousands of casinos, betting shops and game providers in profit.

It is the same like saying: "we don't want people to become alcoholics, we want them to drink only 5 units every day" What is the difference? Even if they always stop after 5 units they are not recreational drinkers, same as gamblers who play every day for a set amount cannot be called "recreational players", emphasis being on every day!

Why aren't game providers and casinos putting a big "responsible gambling, gambling can be addictive" sign on their product? Why are they allowed to have it at the bottom in small print. After all they are making their games and their betting possibilities on purpose psychologically addictive, just like the tobacco industry having addiction enhancing ingredients in their cigarettes or the soft drinks industry dropping sugar in vast amounts into their drinks. Gambling addiction can be compared to smoking or other addictions where the warnings are much more prominent!


3. Psychological design and play

Questions:

Why would the industry put so much emphasis on implementing psychological elements into their games if they only want "recreational players"?


4. Gambling is a regulated market, audited by 3rd parties

You know that we are talking about an industry who in the past decades has laundered more illegal money than all other forms of money laundering put together. Most of the auditing companies, e.g. ECogra, are financed to a large part by the industry itself. And those who are not, are private companies that have the gaming industry as their main customer.

Question:
In what way can that be called independent, unbiased or similar?

And i won't get started on MGA or UKGC. In no other industry known to mankind can an operator who committed a clear regulation breach negotiate over months with the regulator to end up paying a $1Mio fine which is peanuts to the operator. He then returns to business as usual knowing that he will make more profit by continuing to breach the rules (just masked in a different way so the regulator won't find out that quickly) because the fine will be just a fraction of the extra profit. Unheard of..."negotiate over months"... a breach = breach, today or in a few months.

What i am trying to say is that all participants in this gambling "spiel" make sure that they don't hurt each other. It's like a family taking care that everyone gets a piece of the pie.


5. I said in my post that it can't be random to have a 2-scatter teaser in the last few spins before a bust-out.

You answered that you would need to see some data. Well, i recorded since then my last 44 bust-outs and below you can see the result.

Blue line - last 2-scatter teaser
Orange line - the 2nd last 2-scatter teaser

I also inserted a trend line on the last teaser which clearly shows that it tends to happen in the last few spins. Give this graph to a mathematician without telling him what the graphs stand for and he will tell you that clearly the last event (blue line) is designed to happen in the last 10 units. The data is from 7 slots from 4 suppliers, hence, no difference between providers.



6. Slots pay and behave the same on any bet size

I have, what somebody would call "near scientifically", collected data for millions of spins on two slots and that over years. Here are some of the results, small bets is below $1, medium is $1-4.50, high is $4.50 and above (numbers are rounded up or down):

- hit rate (all paying spins) - pretty equal between small - medium - high bets
- hit rate (paying spins covering minimum bet size) - small is 3.4% and 3.9% higher than medium and high category
- hit rate bonus features (average amount of spins between feature): small is 8.4% and 14.3% lower than medium and high category
- hit rate (5OAK high paying symbols, let's call it super rare events) - small is 43% and 48% higher than medium and high category

I can list you many more but you get the picture. Over millions of spins on each of the 2 slots you would expect, if the bet size truly does not matter, that the results are mixed. But they are not, they are ALWAYS in favor of the small bets. I don't have enough data on super high bets of $15 and more to give these results a further category but will give you just one example:

A few years back i lost once in a session $20K on the same slot playing $25 - $50 bets, not a chance to even recover to 70-80% of my total deposits. Next day i returned and stoically played the slot between $6.25 - $12.50, never going above...guess what --> I played pretty much the same amount of time and withdrew 12k in the end.


Last statistic

I recorded down to the last tee 20 sessions where I started with 100 spins on a lower bet size and then doubled it for the next 100. Equally, I started 20 sessions with 100 spins on a higher bet size and then halved it for the next 100 spins.

All but 3 of 40 the sessions had favorable results for the lower bets. I had the RTP dropping from 88% to 16% on one occasion after i raised the bet, on average my RTP over the 100 spins was lower by some 12% on the higher stakes. The worst part of the drop when increasing the bet was always on the first 15-20 spins where you rarely will see a single pay over 1x bet size.

It would recover somewhat after a longer period but by that time the damage was done. Yet again, i expected some mixed results which should be somewhat equally spread but they are not.


Final Words

I will tell you the main reason for all of the above. Game providers, casino operators etc. know very well that a new gambler will not start straight away with high bets, the vast majority will set-out with small bets below $1 (I bet they have exact studies and numbers for that). So make the games spitting out wins at a slightly higher rate (the overall RTP is still the same) on small bets to get people hooked on the games as they see the fanfare and gold coin animations many times giving them the perception they are constantly winning . That will get them addicted much faster than having some big losses right from the start but they still lose. Now they start chasing losses, increase bets and the games are shifting creating more losses, resulting in even higher bets etc etc.


All data in this post is not based on perception or imaginary visions! So please, do not always push the negative things to people's perception as it is not always the case.

 

[trancemonkey]

When you design a slot mathematically which is required to have an RTP of 96-97% (let's say your employer tells you this parameter and gives you freedom otherwise) how do you proceed in order to get to this figure?

Do you first think of the highest paying combination(s) and work your way down to increasingly less paying combinations and finally distribute the necessary probabilities to fit the RTP-window? For example by simulation and if it's outside the required RTP-window you slightly increase/decrease the likelihood of a certain combination by replacing a symbol with another on a reel.

Thanks!

Hey great question...

The very first thing I do before I start any game is find out what kind of game i need to make (if there is a need - sometimes it is a "make whatever you want" answer). Do we need a gambler (HV) game for the portfolio, or a softer lower volatility game. Do we need a high line count or a low line count game (again, if there is a specific need for one or the other).

The next thing is to come up with an idea - something you think will be exciting to play and yet mathematically viable. Not every idea is good - and not every good idea is mathematically viable. Sometimes we have to prototype ideas to see if they will work or not...

To explain this better let me give you an example:

Let's say i've just come up with an idea for a sticky wilds game, and that this would be the first of it's kind (so i have nothing to base it on).
The first thing to do is decide the line count, as this affects the bet size and reel grid size - so let's say 50p minimum stake seems fair. We therefore go with 50 lines. That number of lines on a 5x3 reel grid is doable (Gold Factory, for example) but I just feel it would be better on a 5x4. So thats the grid size and bet decided - that's the easy bit.
The next thing is to decide what kind of volatility i want - this is VERY important, because this helps me determine quite a few things. For me, a sticky wild game feels like it should be pretty volatile - i want to see a lot of wilds in the feature after all. But of course, if i make the wins too high, i won't be able to give that many wilds. So, for me i would probably go with a relatively low award card so i can make the feature exciting. The exact numbers we use come a little from trial and error, but experience would tell me roughly where to start.
The next question would be - do i allow a wild line, or do i limit the wilds to reels 2 to 5 only. If i want to make the wilds appear on all reels AND pay a lot for a line of wilds, this is going to greatly limit the number of wilds i can allow to become sticky. As i want to see a lot of wilds, i would probably either decide to have them on reels 2 to 5 only OR not give a huge prize for a line of wilds.

Once i'm happy with the concept design, then I would (or the maths guys would) come up with a structure for the excel file and then write a simulation.

The next bit is the most important bit - the fine tuning of the maths. This is where I try and design in A LOT of levers in to the maths, such as:

1. Pays (wins for each symbol)
2. Reel strips and weightings
3. Feature frequency (how often should the feature occcur and how much should i pay - do i want a frequency feature, but probably not paying very much; do i want an infrequent feature, but paying a decent amount - i prefer the latter btw)
4. Any other levers we can think of...

What i tend to do is play around with the maths until I get it to as close to 94% as i can. Then when doing maths for different RTP's i either make some wins more frequent or less frequent until we get the exact RTP I want.

Does that answer your question at all?!

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks for the novel

Answers inline - i've removed some of your post to make it a little easier to read

1. I asked what is in the data packet going between player - casino - game server - casino - player....you answered bet size, coin size, amount of lines etc.

Questions:

What exactly is the etc? Why is there no transparency on what part of my personal data gets transmitted?
Why does a game server need to know the bet size? It is random after all and supposedly independent of the bet size, so why do they need to know how much i am betting?

The game server HAS to know your bet size for accounting purposes. Also, bear in mind some games DO change the game based on bet size (i.e The Sky's The Limit and Free Spins City on Sky Vegas, as well as Ooh Aah Dracula) so where bet size does play a part in the outcome of the game, it is necessary for that reason also. This change is clearly mentioned in the rules. I understand you may think that this is being used for some underhand tactic, but i can assure you that with all reputable providers that i know of that this isn't the case.


2. You said something in line: "we do not want problem gamblers as they won't be return customers at some point"

Sorry and again with all due respect, your industry depends to nearly 100% on addicted gamblers and punters. The recreational player, as the industry doesn't stop highlighting they are after, will not keep thousands of casinos, betting shops and game providers in profit.

Why aren't game providers and casinos putting a big "responsible gambling, gambling can be addictive" sign on their product? Why are they allowed to have it at the bottom in small print. After all they are making their games and their betting possibilities on purpose psychologically addictive, just like the tobacco industry having addiction enhancing ingredients in their cigarettes or the soft drinks industry dropping sugar in vast amounts into their drinks. Gambling addiction can be compared to smoking or other addictions where the warnings are much more prominent!

In the retail environment in the UK, they have to put large posters up about problem gambling. You'll notice on the end of TV adverts that this is done as well. What we do as an industry is adhere to the regulations as laid down in the technical standards for each jurisdiction we work with. If cigarette manufacturers didn't need to put warnings on the packets, do you think they would - no of course not. Gambling is the same - no one sits in meetings and says "we need to try and come up with ways to make people spend more than they can afford to spend" - but we absolutely do try and come up with ways of making sure that when people DO spend their money, that they spend it on our games.

3. Psychological design and play

Questions:

Why would the industry put so much emphasis on implementing psychological elements into their games if they only want "recreational players"?

For the same reason clothes companies spend money trying to design clothes you want to wear, or car manufacturers spend millions on R&D to make cars you want to drive, or why computer games companies spend millions on games with great graphics / sounds / game play - it's to make sure you want to wear their clothes, drive their car or play their game. We want repeat customers - so if our games can be more psychologically compelling than our competitors and people coming back to our games, then that's better for our business


4. Gambling is a regulated market, audited by 3rd parties

You know that we are talking about an industry who in the past decades has laundered more illegal money than all other forms of money laundering put together. Most of the auditing companies, e.g. ECogra, are financed to a large part by the industry itself. And those who are not, are private companies that have the gaming industry as their main customer.

Question:
In what way can that be called independent, unbiased or similar?

Companies within the UK have to make payments to problem gambling services and companies like ECogra.. so yes in part the industry finances them... but that doesn't make them biased. And i'm not sure if you know this, but with online casinos almost always the biggest department by a mile is the finance / fraud department. Laundering is a huge problem - i agree. Reputable casinos do an enormous amount to try and stop this happening - if they didn't, they'd lose their licence very quickly.

5. I said in my post that it can't be random to have a 2-scatter teaser in the last few spins before a bust-out.

You answered that you would need to see some data. Well, i recorded since then my last 44 bust-outs and below you can see the result.

Blue line - last 2-scatter teaser
Orange line - the 2nd last 2-scatter teaser

I also inserted a trend line on the last teaser which clearly shows that it tends to happen in the last few spins. Give this graph to a mathematician without telling him what the graphs stand for and he will tell you that clearly the last event (blue line) is designed to happen in the last 10 units. The data is from 7 slots from 4 suppliers, hence, no difference between providers.

View attachment 76281

From your own data, the average number of spins between 2-scatter teases is 14.84 spins. As every spin should have the same chance, you have a 67.39% chance of seeing a 2 scatter tease within 10 spins. Your data (after 44 bust-outs) showed a 90% success rate for 2-scatter teases in the last 10 spins. However, after such a small sample size (and statistically that is small) i would disagree that it "clearly shows" that it tends to happen in the last few spins. I can also categorically state that i've never known any provider to do this. Not only would it complicate things (unless it ONLY ever happened on a losing spin) but it would also mean that the game needed an element of compensation and you would never get this past any jurisdiction on the planet that i'm aware of

6. Slots pay and behave the same on any bet size

I have, what somebody would call "near scientifically", collected data for millions of spins on two slots and that over years. Here are some of the results, small bets is below $1, medium is $1-4.50, high is $4.50 and above (numbers are rounded up or down):

- hit rate (all paying spins) - pretty equal between small - medium - high bets
- hit rate (paying spins covering minimum bet size) - small is 3.4% and 3.9% higher than medium and high category
- hit rate bonus features (average amount of spins between feature): small is 8.4% and 14.3% lower than medium and high category
- hit rate (5OAK high paying symbols, let's call it super rare events) - small is 43% and 48% higher than medium and high category

I can list you many more but you get the picture. Over millions of spins on each of the 2 slots you would expect, if the bet size truly does not matter, that the results are mixed. But they are not, they are ALWAYS in favor of the small bets. I don't have enough data on super high bets of $15 and more to give these results a further category but will give you just one example:

If i was going to design a game which changed volatility by bet size, i certainly wouldn't make it MORE volatile as the bet size increased... Have you had exactly the same number of spins at each bet size? I can only speak from experience and say that again i don't know of any provider that does this (apart from the ones that tell you they are doing it - as mentioned above

Final Words

I will tell you the main reason for all of the above. Game providers, casino operators etc. know very well that a new gambler will not start straight away with high bets, the vast majority will set-out with small bets below $1 (I bet they have exact studies and numbers for that). So make the games spitting out wins at a slightly higher rate (the overall RTP is still the same) on small bets to get people hooked on the games as they see the fanfare and gold coin animations many times giving them the perception they are constantly winning . That will get them addicted much faster than having some big losses right from the start but they still lose. Now they start chasing losses, increase bets and the games are shifting creating more losses, resulting in even higher bets etc etc.

Some of this is exactly right - people increase bet sizes over time. We know that to be true, and of course the more people bet the more we make. However, your logic for making the games WORSE as the bet size increases doesn't make sense. In jurisdictions where this is normal (UK retail for example) we always INCREASE the RTP at higher stakes, and tend to make the games LESS volatile because you're staking more. Hence low bet sizes are normally low RTP in the UK (check out the help pages in Ladbrokes)

All data in this post is not based on perception or imaginary visions! So please, do not always push the negative things to people's perception as it is not always the case.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and how you see things - and i understand i probably can't change your mind... but the things that you think we do we mostly don't. And those that we do do i've explained in previous posts.

Again, i'll reiterate that as far as i'm concerned we (the industry) just simply don't do any of this...

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey , haven't read all the thread so sorry if something like this has been asked before. When designing a slot I assume your primary goal is to make a slot which makes the most money as possible . So how much psychology is used in it's design? And can you give some examples ? When I look at slot design I see a lot of possible psychological tricks and subliminals . Few quick examples are small written messages encouraging you to spin again , different audios depending on if you higher or lower bets plus if a game is playing pretty dead then the audio will go very low sort of hoping you don't notice the money going and then when you hit a win or 2 the volume increases to draw your attention to the fact etc . Also sexual imagery like if there's a slot about witches you can guarantee the witches will be sexy witches showing a lot of leg/cleavage I just find it interesting how much effort goes into "seducing" players into spinning and also keeping them in a somewhat trancelike state so they keep spinning... things like bonus teases where the player doesn't actually get anything at all but he feels like he was "close" so that encourages a few more spins
And does that awful Novomatic noise on every slot scramble the brain or something so you keep spinning despite not having got the feature in over 3 months of play

We use psychological design in making slot games just as much as other industries use it in the design of their products...

 

[Harry_BKK]

Thanks for the novel

Answers inline - i've removed some of your post to make it a little easier to read

I appreciate where you're coming from, and how you see things - and i understand i probably can't change your mind... but the things that you think we do we mostly don't. And those that we do do i've explained in previous posts.

Again, i'll reiterate i DO NOT know about every provider - it's possible that some do do the things you talk about here... All i can say is that my knowledge of this happening is zero...

Thanks for the answers, I will post one more time on this and then it will be good to be buried and forgotten as it will not lead us to anywhere.

1. I am still no further as to what data exactly gets transmitted. Secondly, if you need bet sizes for accounting you could have a set-up where they are sent to a separate cloud storage to be downloaded once a day or something similar. Sending bet and coins sizes to a game server leaves the door open to a lot of things. After all a game server is not supposed to know (at least that is what we are being told) what bet size I am making with my spin but as you explained it now the game server knows very well what my stake is.

3. Then stop saying you want "recreational players" and say instead something like "we want to get you hooked on our games" ...that would be at least honest. Cigarette companies and their lobbyists are even worse than the gaming sector.

4. One of the larger casino groups "donated" something in the region of GBP5K in 2015 to gambling services, that certainly must have hurt them a lot.

As for the money laundering, casino operators do what is needed not a iota more. Just go back a decade and see how much or better how little was done then! So my conclusion is that casinos will happily launder money or allow other doubtful transactions as long as the regulation/law does not prohibit it and they are going to say "well, it wasn't against the regulation", does that make it right?

Any organization that is supposed to audit/oversee etc a range of companies of any sector that is financed by the very same companies cannot be totally unbiased/impartial or trusted!

5. I agree small sample but what baffles me that is happening pretty much 99.99% of the time. Now again, if it is random, you would see an even spread of the teasers happening earlier or not at all in the last few spins.


5.+6. I do not expect data to go towards smaller or larger bets, but what I mathematically expect from a random event is a spread that evens out over time. The chances to be always leaning towards one end of the spectrum are astronomically small if I see my total amount of spins of well over 12Mio, hence, why my opinion that it can only be achieved by some human/software/code intervention.

 

[trancemonkey]

Again, answers in line below:

Thanks for the answers, I will post one more time on this and then it will be good to be buried and forgotten as it will not lead us to anywhere.

1. I am still no further as to what data exactly gets transmitted. Secondly, if you need bet sizes for accounting you could have a set-up where they are sent to a separate cloud storage to be downloaded once a day or something similar. Sending bet and coins sizes to a game server leaves the door open to a lot of things. After all a game server is not supposed to know (at least that is what we are being told) what bet size I am making with my spin but as you explained it now the game server knows very well what my stake is.

I think you're looking for a reason to distrust things because of the belief you have about games changing behaviour based on bet size. This just simply doesn't happen, apart from in the types of games i've listed. The game sends as part of the spin request:

PlayerID (this is a number which is used to store all your games against in the back office for legal reasons - i.e game recovery, player complaints, etc..)
Bet Size - this includes whether any "ante-bet" or "feature bet" is active or not.
Coin Value (where applicable)
Lines (where applicable)


3. Then stop saying you want "recreational players" and say instead something like "we want to get you hooked on our games" ...that would be at least honest. Cigarette companies and their lobbyists are even worse than the gaming sector.

Whatever you want to call them, we want people to keep coming back to our games and spend as much as they feel comfortable spending on our games

4. One of the larger casino groups "donated" something in the region of GBP5K in 2015 to gambling services, that certainly must have hurt them a lot.

I'm pretty sure they pay a lot more than

As for the money laundering, casino operators do what is needed not a iota more. Just go back a decade and see how much or better how little was done then! So my conclusion is that casinos will happily launder money or allow other doubtful transactions as long as the regulation/law does not prohibit it and they are going to say "well, it wasn't against the regulation", does that make it right?

Any organization that is supposed to audit/oversee etc a range of companies of any sector that is financed by the very same companies cannot be totally unbiased/impartial or trusted!

So you expect them to do more than what is legally required? Why? That costs money... they are running a business. And the requirements of what they need to do are pretty stringent... Not sure why you pick on this industry to go above and beyond what is required / needed

5. I agree small sample but what baffles me that is happening pretty much 99.99% of the time. Now again, if it is random, you would see an even spread of the teasers happening earlier or not at all in the last few spins.

Your own data shows that it's 90% (as i pointed out - not 99.99%) which in a small sample size is inconclusive. We just don't do this - you may think we do, but we don't. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

5.+6. I do not expect data to go towards smaller or larger bets, but what I mathematically expect from a random event is a spread that evens out over time. The chances to be always leaning towards one end of the spectrum are astronomically small if I see my total amount of spins of well over 12Mio, hence, why my opinion that it can only be achieved by some human/software/code intervention.

We just don't do this either - you may think we do this too, but we don't. There would be zero benefit to doing this - we make the MOST money from the VIPs / Whales - why on earth would we make the game worse for them and risk losing them?!

 

[Captain Rizk]

My take on the missing games query below....

Hey there, thanks for answering all these questions

My questions are:

1.
Am I more likely to hit big (wildline on Dead or Alive) on a Casino I have done more spins as opposed to a casino I have not yet played it at all?

So if I made like 100k spins on dead or alive and never got the wildline (which is the case sadly), should I keep spinning at this casino because it has to get me to 97% RTP eventually and hit the wildline? Or could I make another 500m spins without a line if I`m unlucky and I am better off trying multiple casinos?

2.
If the results are supposed to be unpredictable, why is there such a large amount of reel 1&2 Scatters in Dead Or Alive, from which I tend to predict 99% of the time whether its gonna hit or not? If the 3rd reel gets a scatter I obviously hit, but if it doesn´t, its 99% of the time not going to hit on the last 2 reels. If I got that result a few times within a million spins, I could understand, but I get this every 20-40 spins. That is not normal and I would consider this atleast an "anomaly". Keep in mind, this is the only combination that allows me to predict the result this accurately. I feel like the 2 scatters should appear in many variations of different reels for a truly random result.

3.
On games with avalanches, is the result already determined after the spin, or does each avalance produce a new random result (Gonzos Quest as an example)?


Another thing, why do some casinos chose to not offer a certain game from a provider? I have noticed that CasinoHeroes offer a lot of different providers but misses some of their games, such as Playboy or 300 Shields.
Why do you think that is? Surely its not licensing of those specific games if the other ones are allowed and the games in question are offered everywhere else.

300 Shields is provided by Nyx Gaming which, from what i can tell, Casino Heroes dont have as a provider. But in general there can be a number of reasons for not having games - very few casino's offer every single game this is for a variety of reasons but for example i probably have the option to release 70+ games per month and to produce thumbnails, backgrounds and then work it into the site layout whilst all the time ensuring that the site is not too "heavy" for the browser is time consuming, elaborate and a waste of energy in many cases. And in some cases it is just poor casino management......

In addition we (operators) generally pay more for branded slots than non branded so instead of paying 20% to the game provider then we would have to pay 25% of the Gross Gaming revenue to, in this case MG. Plus is Playboy as a brand that strong for acquisition? Probably not because the game on its own isnt strong enough imo and provides very little revenue, so why not use the very limited, real estate that you have to offer a more popular game that also costs you less?

Lastly, what reason is there to include horrible results in slots? You get a set from the rng, for example 2 scatters in the first two reels and then none (if the scatters appear mixed, like reel 2 and 4, its much less horrible, because the players "think" its less likely to hit anyway). Or worse, the Sarah feature that fills the wilds on the 4th and 5th reel but you can already see from the start that its not going to form a win. Why does this exist? There is no benefit, since it only enrages players and I don´t think it would be much of a hassle to just remove this as a possible outcome regardless of payout (for 2 scatters), because the payout can still be achieved with different reel positions. Are slot devs just evil and like to laugh at streamers or dunovers getting their rage on?



Thanks a lot!