Another Top Game screw up

[bb28]

Well top game has done it again! Planet 23 had more than one set of terms on their website and they refused to pay a player who won on VP. I was over at GPWA doing a little reading and saw

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thread. Apparently they can't even get someone to do the math conversion correctly on their bonus - web page either. Unreal!

 

[Rusty]

Well top game has done it again! Planet 23 had more than one set of terms on their website and they refused to pay a player who won on VP. I was over at GPWA doing a little reading and saw

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thread. Apparently they can't even get someone to do the math conversion correctly on their bonus - web page either. Unreal!

Incredible.
Some good points made in that thread too not least that they should have paid the money and got themselves some positive advertising for doing the right thing.
How can these operations be so lacking in business sense never mind ethics?

One thing that was not mentioned is why did the Casino confiscate the winnings?
Even in their "revised" T&C's there is no mention that playing VP will result in confiscation of winnings- only that it counts Zero toward WR.

So absolutely they should pay out but even if they were playing hard-ball and sticking to their idiotic judgement the cashout should of been merely refused and the full amount returned to the players account so they could complete WR.

I know there is a General warning out for Topgame and its Casinos but IMO they belong firmly in the rogue pit by now.

 

[me_and_ed]

I got a call last night from C/S at Gold Vegas, he asked why I have not played in a while, I explained to him my concerns with TG, poor guy trying to defend his casino with the software provider constantly staying in the shadows. This is shithole software, with shithole ownership (not the casino itself but TG) in the end he directed me to his RTG casino that I guess Gold Vegas owns too.

 

[4 of a kind]

I only read this forum, and after reading similar bull on another forum, I could only wonder how many negative issues are really out there with this outfit.

 

[bb28]

You would think that they would have been going over EVERYTHING with a fine tooth comb, weeding out anything that could have possibly hurt their credibility even more. Very sloppy and unprofessional as it has been from the start. I don't see how they can ever penetrate the market that has knowledgeable and educated gamblers after all the scandals and big screw ups. Probably the only hope they have for a player base are the ones who don't read the forums and are complete newbies.

 

[Pinababy69]

Well top game has done it again! Planet 23 had more than one set of terms on their website and they refused to pay a player who won on VP. I was over at GPWA doing a little reading and saw

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

thread. Apparently they can't even get someone to do the math conversion correctly on their bonus - web page either. Unreal!

Thanks for digging that up Bonita. Why am I not surprised?

I know there is a General warning out for Topgame and its Casinos but IMO they belong firmly in the rogue pit by now.

I couldn't agree more Rusty. This issue, coupled with the fact that the Rome Casino rep is here almost every day, and avoids that "Top Game - Rogue Software" thread like the plague, makes it pretty clear that ethics and players needs/questions aren't too high on their priority list.

I got a call last night from C/S at Gold Vegas, he asked why I have not played in a while, I explained to him my concerns with TG, poor guy trying to defend his casino with the software provider constantly staying in the shadows. This is shithole software, with shithole ownership (not the casino itself but TG) in the end he directed me to his RTG casino that I guess Gold Vegas owns too.

Hey Me_and_ed, any chance that casino was Grande Vegas (or Vegas Grande)? When Grande Vegas first opened, someone here posted an email they had received from them.....but it was signed by a rep with Gold Vegas under their name. The CM rep for Grande was asked about it, but emphatically denied any connection. Or maybe it was Winpalace.com....another RTG that popped up in another thread yesterday, which is apparently associated with Mayflower Casino (another TG outfit).

I only read this forum, and after reading similar bull on another forum, I could only wonder how many negative issues are really out there with this outfit.

Scary thought isn't it? We only know what we're lucky enough to read on message boards. What about all the players who've never posted on a forum in their life?

Probably the only hope they have for a player base are the ones who don't read the forums and are complete newbies.

Good point BB...and like so many online casinos nowadays...they are probably relying on player acquisition (and affiliates bringing in newbies) as opposed to any type of player retention. I've never understood that mindset.

 

[me_and_ed]

Hey Me_and_ed, any chance that casino was Grande Vegas (or Vegas Grande)? When Grande Vegas first opened, someone here posted an email they had received from them.....but it was signed by a rep with Gold Vegas under their name. The CM rep for Grande was asked about it, but emphatically denied any connection. Or maybe it was Winpalace.com....another RTG that popped up in another thread yesterday, which is apparently associated with Mayflower Casino (another TG outfit).

Ding Ding Ding.....Big Winner, Grande Vegas.....Dont know what you've won but I will think of something.

 

[JHV]

I know there is a General warning out for Topgame and its Casinos but IMO they belong firmly in the rogue pit by now.

I couldn't agree more Rusty. This issue, coupled with the fact that the Rome Casino rep is here almost every day, and avoids that "Top Game - Rogue Software" thread like the plague, makes it pretty clear that ethics and players needs/questions aren't too high on their priority list.

Yep. I could not agree more. If I was on the jury, (in a courtroom where juries decided sentencing as opposed to magistrates) I would order them to serve a Life Sentence in Rogue not so much for their incompetence and unethical / shocking behaviour (although rogue-worthy in itself obviously), but for their blatant lies and personal slandering of my good name in their desperate attempts to wave the red flag when caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

I'm still waiting on my challenge for them to produce this "evidence" that I made 6 chargebacks at online casinos. Oh, then later it was changed to 1 chargeback. Is it 6 or 1, you lying Top Game / Rome scoundrels?

I'll tell you the answer - it was a trick question. The answer is 0. You know it. You know that I know it. You know you suck. It's always hard to produce "evidence" when it never existed in the first place, isn't it.

ROGUE with no possibility for parole - and may God have mercy on your (collective) souls.

Expired Image

(Edit: Bryan, I notice the Top Game Support Disaster Rogue page still states that 1 chargeback is claimed - can I please respectfully request this note be edited to reflect the more truthful situation that they have simply just been lying outright the entire time?)

 

[Pinababy69]

Hey Me_and_ed, any chance that casino was Grande Vegas (or Vegas Grande)? When Grande Vegas first opened, someone here posted an email they had received from them.....but it was signed by a rep with Gold Vegas under their name. The CM rep for Grande was asked about it, but emphatically denied any connection.

Ding Ding Ding.....Big Winner, Grande Vegas.....Dont know what you've won but I will think of something.

Oh goody, I love prizes.

Well, if that's the case....it would "seem" that the rep for Grande Vegas lied here on the forum. I say seem because she did admit that it was possible they shared support, and nothing more.

Why the subterfuge and attempt to cover up the connection? I'd sort of like to know exactly what type of connection it is....anyone else? Do they simply share a support/call centre? Or is the affiliation more complex? We have an RTG (winpalace.com) that shares the same affiliate program as a TG outfit (Mayflower Casino). What is the connection between these two? Seeing as Grande Vegas is on the accredited list here.....and Top Game has a warning issued against them....I would think it's a question that deserves an honest answer.

 

[me_and_ed]

Oh goody, I love prizes.

Well, if that's the case....it would "seem" that the rep for Grande Vegas lied here on the forum. I say seem because she did admit that it was possible they shared support, and nothing more.

Why the subterfuge and attempt to cover up the connection? I'd sort of like to know exactly what type of connection it is....anyone else? Do they simply share a support/call centre? Or is the affiliation more complex? We have an RTG (winpalace.com) that shares the same affiliate program as a TG outfit (Mayflower Casino). What is the connection between these two? Seeing as Grande Vegas is on the accredited list here.....and Top Game has a warning issued against them....I would think it's a question that deserves an honest answer.

I see where your going here however I do not think that some of the casino's should be held accountable for TG's terrible performance, I am sure that the owners of Gold Vegas and Grande Vegas have a lot of money invested in their TG casino, saying this I doubt they saw the shitstorm coming and are probably trying to salvage their investment here, thats no reason to lie about association though and this is just my thought. I do know that Gold Vegas does use their own C/S and not TG's.

 

[bb28]

Here is the thread where the possible connection is mentioned and denied.

 

[BLUEWATER]

It wrong to change the T&C without notify the players. This guy should able withdraw his money. If someone made a deposit before the T&C change they should make exception for withdrawal. Far as I'm concern I read their new T&C it only show that playing video poker will not count as wager requirement. Maybe if he start playing slot with the money he won on VP and fullfill his wager requirement then he might able to cash out.

 

[RomeCasino]

response from Noah

Thanks for digging that up Bonita. Why am I not surprised?



I couldn't agree more Rusty. This issue, coupled with the fact that the Rome Casino rep is here almost every day, and avoids that "Top Game - Rogue Software" thread like the plague, makes it pretty clear that ethics and players needs/questions aren't too high on their priority list.



Hey Me_and_ed, any chance that casino was Grande Vegas (or Vegas Grande)? When Grande Vegas first opened, someone here posted an email they had received from them.....but it was signed by a rep with Gold Vegas under their name. The CM rep for Grande was asked about it, but emphatically denied any connection. Or maybe it was Winpalace.com....another RTG that popped up in another thread yesterday, which is apparently associated with Mayflower Casino (another TG outfit).



Scary thought isn't it? We only know what we're lucky enough to read on message boards. What about all the players who've never posted on a forum in their life?



Good point BB...and like so many online casinos nowadays...they are probably relying on player acquisition (and affiliates bringing in newbies) as opposed to any type of player retention. I've never understood that mindset.

Hi Guys,

This seems to be an issue between a player and an individual casino, as it concers a misunderstanding of the T&C and not some payout or technical issue, the casino may belong to TopGame, but it does not mean that every issue between a casino and a player immediately means the software provider is at fault and so all other casinos. It should be the operator answering these T&C issues.

Rusty, I was not aware of these questions you posted, can you please repeat them here and I will do my best to answer them (I may need to ask the technical department some stuff so give me a bit of time to reply in full, I'll answer the questions I know first).

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[Pinababy69]

I see where your going here however I do not think that some of the casino's should be held accountable for TG's terrible performance, I am sure that the owners of Gold Vegas and Grande Vegas have a lot of money invested in their TG casino, saying this I doubt they saw the shitstorm coming and are probably trying to salvage their investment here, thats no reason to lie about association though and this is just my thought. I do know that Gold Vegas does use their own C/S and not TG's.

I totally get your point Me_and_ed....and I think it would be a fair assumption to say that for the most part, players don't really care what associations casinos have with other casinos. Their main concern is if the place they are playing is above board, and pays them on time.

The point I was trying to make is that for me, personally....I would like to know if a casino I play at (or may play at), is associated with any other casinos. In this instance, even if I thought Grande Vegas was the greatest casino on earth....if there's a chance that my playing there helps to put a penny in the pocket of TopGame...then I don't want to play there, regardless of how good Grande Vegas itself is. That's just me.

And I think that as an accredited casino, when a direct question is asked regarding affiliations with other establishments.....an honest answer should be forthcoming. I don't think that's being unreasonable. It shouldn't be some big, hidden secret. What happened to transparency and honesty?

It seems there are more than just this affiliation of casinos lately...Intertops/Jackpot Capital (again, never answered, even though asked directly), GoWild/Casino Titan (hinted at in a thread here, but no solid proof), Winpalace.com/Mayflower Casino (same affiliate program with two different softwares) and now this Gold Vegas/Grande Vegas. I just don't see what the problem is in allowing players to have ALL the info, and allowing them to make informed decisions where to spend their money. Chances are that most wouldn't care if Grande Vegas is affiliated with Gold Vegas.....they'd play at the RTG anyway, if they liked that particular casino. But when direct questions are avoided and sidestepped, it makes me think there's something to hide.

Just an honest answer is all I'm looking for. Hope that clarifies a bit.

Hi Guys,

This seems to be an issue between a player and an individual casino, as it concers a misunderstanding of the T&C and not some payout or technical issue, the casino may belong to TopGame, but it does not mean that every issue between a casino and a player immediately means the software provider is at fault and so all other casinos. It should be the operator answering these T&C issues.

Rusty, I was not aware of these questions you posted, can you please repeat them here and I will do my best to answer them (I may need to ask the technical department some stuff so give me a bit of time to reply in full, I'll answer the questions I know first).

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Hi Noah....there's a whole thread re: TopGame software, and the recent problems with missing symbols, Jackpots being pulled from games with no explanation, etc. It would be worth a read if you haven't read it already. The post in question (with Rusty's questions) can be found here, post #85:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/topgame-slots-rogue-software.31796/

Some of it is technical, and you may have to (as you said) liaise with the techie department.

A couple of the questions I'd most like to see answered are:

Why was the Jackpot amount of $192,000 removed from the game Dougie's Delights, prior to there even being any knowledge of game malfunction (according to the timeline in that thread)?

You have two jackpot games that require a $45 bet (9 liner) and a $65 bet (13 liner) to be able to win the progressive. How is this at all reasonable?

And to go with the above question....there was another thread brought up re: a screenshot that was supposed to be provided to the forum here...a player had gotten the five wilds, but received an almost non existent payout for five wilds...I "think" maybe a few times his original bet. Of course, he was under the assumption he had won the jackpot I guess...but wasn't betting the actual MAX (as above). But still....almost zero payout for five wilds? Is this correct? I may have to find the link to the thread itself so you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

I agree with you that the operator in question should be here answering questions regarding the T&C's screwup. But the point of all this is....how are players supposed to be able to trust ANY Topgame casino with all these issues ongoing...and no definitive answers forthcoming?

Thanks in advance for any info Noah.

 

[Rusty]

Thanks for the link Pina and here is the link to the 5 Wilds thread.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/bb28s-thebes-casino-thread.31809/

Hi Noah, I am sorely tempted to make a weak joke about the flood of complaints Topgame casinos have been receiving here but...Oh sorry.

Yes you are right to point out that each Casino should be judged on its own merit - in an ideal World anyway.
Unfortunately so many things have gone wrong with Topgame and some of their Casinos recently it is guilt by association I'm afraid.
Anyway if the software can not be trusted then the individual Casinos integrity is a moot point but yes on this particular case it is down to the operator just as the horrible episode with Rome was.

I think there have been 4 or 5 different threads relating to different Topgame software/operator issues, all of them very serious in the last couple of Months.
One would shake players confidence.
Two would hurt your reputation.
Three you have no reputation left to hurt.
I will leave Four and five for others.

It is a real shame because deep down I have a feeling there are some good people involved at some of these Casinos but it has been a horrible catalogue of incidents and despite promises things never seem to get addressed properly or improve.
It gets to the stage where I start to believe that players need more than just a general warning, hence my rogue pit evaluation.
I guess that would be harsh on the likes of Thebes though - but If I receive a 50 note as change and find it is counterfeit but still decide to spend it is that wrong?

Fortunately for everyone, probably, it is not the forum that decides these things though.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Hi,

OK these are all legitimate questions, I'd like to answer everything - including Rusty's questions from the other thread, please give me a day to check up on everything and to verify all facts and I will post a long reply here for all of it tomorrow or today if possible. I apologize for the delay, its not a tactic, I'd just like my answer to be comprehensive.

Kind Regards

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[RomeCasino]

upodate on VP issue

Just to UPDATE

Planet23 has informed me that the player WILL be paid for the VP win. They acknowledge the problem and will re-write the terms so they are clearer.

Cheers

Noah

 

[wikidpanda]

Trezz ??

I'm waiting for Trezz' input on this - he usually knows what's going on.
Are these guys legit? I play at 50States mostly and its a TG brand - so far they have been good to me - But I have to admit Im a sucker when it comes to the fine print.

 

[Boris303]

Just to UPDATE

Planet23 has informed me that the player WILL be paid for the VP win. They acknowledge the problem and will re-write the terms so they are clearer.

Cheers

Noah

Sounds like a good result, you may want to ask them to update the GPWA thread where the problem stemmed from, you can find it

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Its a shame it has to be made as public as it has done to get the right result, but the main thing is, its ok now. Hopefully lessons have been learnt.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Sounds like a good result, you may want to ask them to update the GPWA thread where the problem stemmed from, you can find it

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Its a shame it has to be made as public as it has done to get the right result, but the main thing is, its ok now. Hopefully lessons have been learnt.

Well it isn't official yet, but I was given to understand that is the decision. So lets wait for the player to be informed first.

Cheers

Noah

 

[bb28]

Well it isn't official yet, but I was given to understand that is the decision. So lets wait for the player to be informed first.

Cheers

Noah

Sounds like you are backtracking? In your previous post you sounded pretty sure.


Keep us posted, please.

 

[binshakindown]

The good thing is that your original post

has assisted in getting results. That is in my book is, One right-on for you. Although it is a disappointment that it "appears" that the reason the player is getting paid is due to the potential pressure from the on-line community. However, ISN'T THIS AWESOME? Who needs government intervention (well maybe except for the rogues). I tend to think that this process is not only more efficient, but allows for more involvement by all invested parties.

Again, it is nice to see GPWA, CM, it's posters, and casino reps working towards keeping participating on-line casinos in check. :notworthy

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Sounds like you are backtracking? In your previous post you sounded pretty sure.


Keep us posted, please.

To be completely honest with you, I was told they are paying the player but I realized after I posted that it isn't my place to speak for them in this without their consent, and especially not if they haven't told the player yet. I was just glad to tell you guys and I jumped to post too quickly. You live and you learn I guess

Cheers

Noah

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - update

Hey people I just wanted to say I will be posting a long reply today, sorry its taking so long but I'm waiting on answers from a few different people, I promise I will answer everything possible and also update you about some other things we've been talking about. I appreciate the patience I'm hoping you have

Kind Regards,

Noah

 

[RomeCasino]

from Noah - Q & A

OK.

So I've gathered the questions I think you posted, I deleted those that repeated themselves and those that are on the same subject. So I copied your question and added an answer one by one.


Also I'm happy to tell you that TopGame has begun its TST certification and over the next month our games will be going through their review process, anything TST deems needs fixing will be fixed before we can get their certification.

QUESTIONS

"A couple of the questions I'd most like to see answered are:"

- You have two jackpot games that require a $45 bet (9 liner) and a $65 bet (13 liner) to be able to win the progressive. How is this at all reasonable?

- Its not. I have spoken to TST representatives and to the TopGame people and all agree, so you can expect that to be done alongside the TST process, and to end much before, any coin value will be able to win the jackpot.

And to go with the above question....there was another thread brought up re: a screenshot that was supposed to be provided to the forum here...a player had gotten the five wilds, but received an almost non existent payout for five wilds...I "think" maybe a few times his original bet. Of course, he was under the assumption he had won the jackpot I guess...but wasn't betting the actual MAX (as above). But still....almost zero payout for five wilds? Is this correct? I may have to find the link to the thread itself so you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

- I read the thread but I don't know the details exactly - why did things happen the way they did, and no screenshot has been submitted to clear things up. Also I don't want to talk for Thebes in this matter, bad enough I did that with planet23 I'm still waiting for the screenshot. But I'm sure there should be some payout and I will check that out further just to be on the safe side.

No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.


- I'm presuming this is about the missing symbol in Fandango. The error happened in the jackpot version of the game only, after the problem was discovered that version was pulled down, the video slots version was later taken off for review just in case and honestly so players don't think the game is still in there.

No explanation as to why the Jackpot games were being tampered with and No explanation as to how these changes caused the missing Wilds -

- They were not tampered with, there was an update that included the graphics engine and it caused a glitch, we now know it was purely graphical, not that excuses it, it should have never happened, and you know my opinion on it.


No explanation as to how the RTP is calculated - are these Bingo slots where prizes are preselected and the slot reels merely a graphic representation of the result and not true slots?

- These are true slots, however the game acted as if the symbol was there.


No explanation as to what 5 Wild symbols pay if the game is not played at $45 and $65 a spin. -It appears this may be nothing!

- As I said I am unsure of the circumstances and the betting lines, lets wait for a screenshot and see, in any case there should be a payout if the wilds are on a payline.

No explanation or mock screenshot provided of the 5 Wilds that a player hit on a 45c bet but only won under $5 from other combinations.
- still waiting for that too.

I'm sure I missed some questions, if you don't mind putting them up again I'll answer whatever you wish to ask. Just remember I don't represent individual casinos, so keep it in regards to Rome Casino or TopGame itself.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[Rusty]

OK.

So I've gathered the questions I think you posted, I deleted those that repeated themselves and those that are on the same subject. So I copied your question and added an answer one by one.


Also I'm happy to tell you that TopGame has begun its TST certification and over the next month our games will be going through their review process, anything TST deems needs fixing will be fixed before we can get their certification.

QUESTIONS

"A couple of the questions I'd most like to see answered are:"

- You have two jackpot games that require a $45 bet (9 liner) and a $65 bet (13 liner) to be able to win the progressive. How is this at all reasonable?

- Its not. I have spoken to TST representatives and to the TopGame people and all agree, so you can expect that to be done alongside the TST process, and to end much before, any coin value will be able to win the jackpot.

And to go with the above question....there was another thread brought up re: a screenshot that was supposed to be provided to the forum here...a player had gotten the five wilds, but received an almost non existent payout for five wilds...I "think" maybe a few times his original bet. Of course, he was under the assumption he had won the jackpot I guess...but wasn't betting the actual MAX (as above). But still....almost zero payout for five wilds? Is this correct? I may have to find the link to the thread itself so you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

- I read the thread but I don't know the details exactly - why did things happen the way they did, and no screenshot has been submitted to clear things up. Also I don't want to talk for Thebes in this matter, bad enough I did that with planet23 I'm still waiting for the screenshot. But I'm sure there should be some payout and I will check that out further just to be on the safe side.

No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.


- I'm presuming this is about the missing symbol in Fandango. The error happened in the jackpot version of the game only, after the problem was discovered that version was pulled down, the video slots version was later taken off for review just in case and honestly so players don't think the game is still in there.

No explanation as to why the Jackpot games were being tampered with and No explanation as to how these changes caused the missing Wilds -

- They were not tampered with, there was an update that included the graphics engine and it caused a glitch, we now know it was purely graphical, not that excuses it, it should have never happened, and you know my opinion on it.


No explanation as to how the RTP is calculated - are these Bingo slots where prizes are preselected and the slot reels merely a graphic representation of the result and not true slots?

- These are true slots, however the game acted as if the symbol was there.


No explanation as to what 5 Wild symbols pay if the game is not played at $45 and $65 a spin. -It appears this may be nothing!

- As I said I am unsure of the circumstances and the betting lines, lets wait for a screenshot and see, in any case there should be a payout if the wilds are on a payline.

No explanation or mock screenshot provided of the 5 Wilds that a player hit on a 45c bet but only won under $5 from other combinations.
- still waiting for that too.

I'm sure I missed some questions, if you don't mind putting them up again I'll answer whatever you wish to ask. Just remember I don't represent individual casinos, so keep it in regards to Rome Casino or TopGame itself.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Thank you for trying to address these issues Noah.

Regarding the Jackpot game being removed.
Pina will be able to give the detail on this but the concern was that the Jackpot total itself was removed before the actual game.
Also the fact the game was left in circulation despite the know faults.
Obviously if Jackpot total was removed before the actual game this would give more cause for concern so can you give us the time-line on that please.

The greatest concern was the live changes to the slot.
You say it was a graphic update (the evidence still suggests tampering, read on) but players noticed no change to the game graphically so can you tell us specifically what graphics were being updated?
Why was there only updates to the Jackpot slot and no graphic update of the none Jackpot versions of the slots?
Also how is it possible only Wild symbols for reel 1 and 5 were affected and not the same symbol for reels 2,3 and 4?

You say these are genuine slots which means prizes are calculated according to the 5 Reel stop positions and paytabe.
This means there is still a conflict between the argument that Wild symbols were missing but payout was not affected.
If for example there are only 34 Symbols instead of 35 on reel One and the Wild symbol is symbol 35 (missing) but RNG is still returning 35 as a valid stop position where would the reel stop?
This should either cause the game to crash or malfunction in that payouts are awarded for non paying combinations because depending on how the slot is programmed it either has no valid stop position or the Wild symbol is represented by another symbol(probably altering each game)
It is possible that overall RTP was not affected though but this would mean the Jackpot could still be won so for the sake of argument and so you understand the relevance of the above what would the Jackpot combination of been if not 5 Wilds which was impossible?
Topgame have already stated in this forum that making the Jackpot impossible to win was not intentional so as you can see there is much contradiction here which is why tampering should still be considered a possible cause of the fault until a proper explanation can be given.

Now for the issues that appear to have been or are being addressed.

Everybody now agrees that the wager required to win the Jackpots was ludicrous so obviously it begs the question as to why it was implemented in the first place.
The Casinos agree yet they were happily letting their customers wager on this game even when there was a known fault.
OK so bad form but it is being changed which is a step forward toward the light. Still pitch Black though.

I think we all also agree that no payout for 5 Wild symbols is also ludicrous.
Slots can have zero win for 5 Wilds (as long as it is clearly detailed in the paytable) but it is completely illogical and counter intuitive for the player - watch those complaints roll in!
Only a masochistic crack smoking Monkey would design such a slot.
No doubt this is being addressed too (if not I give up) so take another step toward the light. Still Black.

So even though we were misinformed that TST testing had commenced a couple of Months ago by Topgame themselves we are now being told it is just getting under way.
No worries, at least it is being done and this is a very important and large step forward. I think I can see something in the distance.

Topgame Casinos have shown a willingness to listen to complaints and act upon them but this is quite erratic at the moment, Two steps forward One step back it seems but at least you are moving forward. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel?

Of course there are still huge issues regarding the original debacle regarding the missing Wild symbols and why the Jackpot winning wager requirement was set so high. TST testing will assuage some of these fears if not the memory of how it was handled.
The full Jackpot total was returned to the game right?

At the moment it is just a case of players keeping a watching brief and seeing if Topgame and its operators can one Day step into the light.

 

[kiahs1982]

From noah - Response

oops sorry you guys this is my test account I set up way back. Writing from home not work.

 

[Rusty]

oops sorry you guys this is my test account I set up way back. Writing from home not work.

No worries Noah, see you soon.

 

[kiahs1982]

From Noah - Response

Thanks Posting now.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - Response

Thank you for trying to address these issues Noah.

Regarding the Jackpot game being removed.
Pina will be able to give the detail on this but the concern was that the Jackpot total itself was removed before the actual game.
Also the fact the game was left in circulation despite the know faults.
Obviously if Jackpot total was removed before the actual game this would give more cause for concern so can you give us the time-line on that please.

The greatest concern was the live changes to the slot.
You say it was a graphic update (the evidence still suggests tampering, read on) but players noticed no change to the game graphically so can you tell us specifically what graphics were being updated?
Why was there only updates to the Jackpot slot and no graphic update of the none Jackpot versions of the slots?
Also how is it possible only Wild symbols for reel 1 and 5 were affected and not the same symbol for reels 2,3 and 4?

You say these are genuine slots which means prizes are calculated according to the 5 Reel stop positions and paytabe.
This means there is still a conflict between the argument that Wild symbols were missing but payout was not affected.
If for example there are only 34 Symbols instead of 35 on reel One and the Wild symbol is symbol 35 (missing) but RNG is still returning 35 as a valid stop position where would the reel stop?
This should either cause the game to crash or malfunction in that payouts are awarded for non paying combinations because depending on how the slot is programmed it either has no valid stop position or the Wild symbol is represented by another symbol(probably altering each game)
It is possible that overall RTP was not affected though but this would mean the Jackpot could still be won so for the sake of argument and so you understand the relevance of the above what would the Jackpot combination of been if not 5 Wilds which was impossible?
Topgame have already stated in this forum that making the Jackpot impossible to win was not intentional so as you can see there is much contradiction here which is why tampering should still be considered a possible cause of the fault until a proper explanation can be given.

Now for the issues that appear to have been or are being addressed.

Everybody now agrees that the wager required to win the Jackpots was ludicrous so obviously it begs the question as to why it was implemented in the first place.
The Casinos agree yet they were happily letting their customers wager on this game even when there was a known fault.
OK so bad form but it is being changed which is a step forward toward the light. Still pitch Black though.

I think we all also agree that no payout for 5 Wild symbols is also ludicrous.
Slots can have zero win for 5 Wilds (as long as it is clearly detailed in the paytable) but it is completely illogical and counter intuitive for the player - watch those complaints roll in!
Only a masochistic crack smoking Monkey would design such a slot.
No doubt this is being addressed too (if not I give up) so take another step toward the light. Still Black.

So even though we were misinformed that TST testing had commenced a couple of Months ago by Topgame themselves we are now being told it is just getting under way.
No worries, at least it is being done and this is a very important and large step forward. I think I can see something in the distance.

Topgame Casinos have shown a willingness to listen to complaints and act upon them but this is quite erratic at the moment, Two steps forward One step back it seems but at least you are moving forward. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel?

Of course there are still huge issues regarding the original debacle regarding the missing Wild symbols and why the Jackpot winning wager requirement was set so high. TST testing will assuage some of these fears if not the memory of how it was handled.
The full Jackpot total was returned to the game right?

At the moment it is just a case of players keeping a watching brief and seeing if Topgame and its operators can one Day step into the light.

Hi Rusty,

Thank you for the latter part of your post, I understand the mixed feelings and I appreciate you being neutral in your viewpoint.

I think I made a mistake when answering the question regarding the graphics, and from there stems the confusion. If you'll read I said I was referring to the missing symbol problem we talked about some time ago. Regarding the missing jackpot which I now understand is the issue, I'm not sure if this was done by TopGame or the casino itself, can you please direct me to the thread with the screen shot of the jackpot before and after? I will take that to TopGame and find a real answer for you, with a why and a when (both past and future). I will contact Pina for that information as well.

As regarding the true slots/graphics issue - What I'm saying is that the game behaved as if the symbol was there, the only problem was cosmetic, meaning there was a glitch in the graphics, it did not involve other areas of the game engine and that is why no one was affected or actually claimed to be as I understand it. Of course it was a horrible mistake because we cannot ask players to trust a slots machine that has missing symbols, that's why we have been devoting many hours lately to QA and have finally begun the TST process, which should hopefully end within the month, its in their hands and I hope that we'll live up to the standard, even if you don't think we have one yet I promise you we do, and ever strive to solve any issues that fall beneath it.

Kind Regards,

Noah

Rome Casino

 

[Rusty]

Hi Rusty,

Thank you for the latter part of your post, I understand the mixed feelings and I appreciate you being neutral in your viewpoint.

I think I made a mistake when answering the question regarding the graphics, and from there stems the confusion. If you'll read I said I was referring to the missing symbol problem we talked about some time ago. Regarding the missing jackpot which I now understand is the issue, I'm not sure if this was done by TopGame or the casino itself, can you please direct me to the thread with the screen shot of the jackpot before and after? I will take that to TopGame and find a real answer for you, with a why and a when (both past and future). I will contact Pina for that information as well.

As regarding the true slots/graphics issue - What I'm saying is that the game behaved as if the symbol was there, the only problem was cosmetic, meaning there was a glitch in the graphics, it did not involve other areas of the game engine and that is why no one was affected or actually claimed to be as I understand it. Of course it was a horrible mistake because we cannot ask players to trust a slots machine that has missing symbols, that's why we have been devoting many hours lately to QA and have finally begun the TST process, which should hopefully end within the month, its in their hands and I hope that we'll live up to the standard, even if you don't think we have one yet I promise you we do, and ever strive to solve any issues that fall beneath it.

Kind Regards,

Noah

Rome Casino

Thanks Noah,
I am abrasive and hard but ultimately fair I hope.

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm afraid you have still failed to answer my question about the "glitch" which is understandable as you are not in the Topgame technical department and it is they that should be answering these concerns directly.

I will try one more time to explain what the problem is with the explanations offered thus far.
I know these can be difficult problems to understand but though these are based on technical knowledge they are actually logic problems so if you are not sure you understand something read it again and break it down piece by piece.
I understand there can be some very unusual and unforeseen side effects caused by seemingly disparate functions in programming where data is shared globally but this appears to be something else.

Firstly there is no explanation of how a graphic update (which for the explanation to be even plausible must of included the slot symbols) can have only a local effect.
ie Reels 1 and 5 and Two symbols.
Common sense dictates that all the Wild symbols should have disappeared because the update was applied to them all.
This is why I think my contention that it was the game mechanics that were being changed has much more relevance.

Secondly there is no evidence that any graphic update was implemented, there is only evidence that the Wild symbol from Reel 1 and Reel 2 was removed.

Thirdly there is no explanation what this graphic update actually was.

Fourthly (and this is the real Daddy) there is the contradictory nature of the statement that the Jackpot could not be won and that the payout was not affected! (Topgame themselves stated the Jackpot could not be won)

Even if we ignore that (which we wont) there is still the problem of how the game could function as if the symbol were there.
This would not be possible if it is a genuine slot where 5 reel stop positions are generated by the RNG.
Yes you could have the correct payout but the graphic representation on the reels would not match the payout.
In other words another symbol would represent the Wild symbol and all other symbols would almost certainly lose their identities too.
So the player would see a non winning line giving a payout and a winning line not paying out. This is a simple fact yet there is no evidence this was the case.
So to makes this clear try to answer this; (I am not having a go at you I am just trying to explain why the argument you are making is flawed)
Even if we say Topgame were mistaken and the Jackpot could still be won what would the winning combination of symbols have been?
If they are correct and the Jackpot could not be won (my understanding) how can payout not be affected?
When you think about that you will understand what I am getting at.

 

[RomeCasino]

Response from Noah

Thanks Noah,
I am abrasive and hard but ultimately fair I hope.

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm afraid you have still failed to answer my question about the "glitch" which is understandable as you are not in the Topgame technical department and it is they that should be answering these concerns directly.

I will try one more time to explain what the problem is with the explanations offered thus far.
I know these can be difficult problems to understand but though these are based on technical knowledge they are actually logic problems so if you are not sure you understand something read it again and break it down piece by piece.
I understand there can be some very unusual and unforeseen side effects caused by seemingly disparate functions in programming where data is shared globally but this appears to be something else.

Firstly there is no explanation of how a graphic update (which for the explanation to be even plausible must of included the slot symbols) can have only a local effect.
ie Reels 1 and 5 and Two symbols.
Common sense dictates that all the Wild symbols should have disappeared because the update was applied to them all.
This is why I think my contention that it was the game mechanics that were being changed has much more relevance.

Secondly there is no evidence that any graphic update was implemented, there is only evidence that the Wild symbol from Reel 1 and Reel 2 was removed.

Thirdly there is no explanation what this graphic update actually was.

Fourthly (and this is the real Daddy) there is the contradictory nature of the statement that the Jackpot could not be won and that the payout was not affected! (Topgame themselves stated the Jackpot could not be won)

Even if we ignore that (which we wont) there is still the problem of how the game could function as if the symbol were there.
This would not be possible if it is a genuine slot where 5 reel stop positions are generated by the RNG.
Yes you could have the correct payout but the graphic representation on the reels would not match the payout.
In other words another symbol would represent the Wild symbol and all other symbols would almost certainly lose their identities too.
So the player would see a non winning line giving a payout and a winning line not paying out. This is a simple fact yet there is no evidence this was the case.
So to makes this clear try to answer this; (I am not having a go at you I am just trying to explain why the argument you are making is flawed)
Even if we say Topgame were mistaken and the Jackpot could still be won what would the winning combination of symbols have been?
If they are correct and the Jackpot could not be won (my understanding) how can payout not be affected?
When you think about that you will understand what I am getting at.

Hey Rusty,

Sorry, to clarify, I was speaking about the missing symbol in the fandango game, not in this issue concerning the jackpot. The graphics update I was talking about is related to that matter not this one. To be clearer - this jackpot issue has no relation to any graphics update! I'm sorry to cause confusion.

I still don't know what happened exactly with the jackpot wild symbols because no screen shot has still been shown to me. To be honest I don't have access to Thebes's records and I don't know what he got. Has the player who submitted the problem post it yet? Of course the max bet is not attractive and is being changed, I don't know who's idea it was, but we accede it was faulty. We are fixing it, and any problem we need to.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[Rusty]

Hey Rusty,

Sorry, to clarify, I was speaking about the missing symbol in the fandango game, not in this issue concerning the jackpot. The graphics update I was talking about is related to that matter not this one. To be clearer - this jackpot issue has no relation to any graphics update! I'm sorry to cause confusion.

I still don't know what happened exactly with the jackpot wild symbols because no screen shot has still been shown to me. To be honest I don't have access to Thebes's records and I don't know what he got. Has the player who submitted the problem post it yet? Of course the max bet is not attractive and is being changed, I don't know who's idea it was, but we accede it was faulty. We are fixing it, and any problem we need to.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Ah I see, a bit confusion with the crossover of threads because you were answering my questions which directly related to the missing Wild symbols in the Jackpot game.
We still have the same problem then because all I described is just as relevant to the Fandango missing symbol.

For clarity these are the issues.
The Jackpot total being removed before the game was taken out of circulation.
Missing Wild symbols rendering the Jackpot impossible to win.
Weeks before the game was withdrawn despite knowledge of the faults.
New missing symbol in Fandango game.
Rogue behaviour regarding implementation of T&C's. (possibly resolved)

The questions remain the same.

 

[Pinababy69]

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm just going to make dinner, but will come back after to refresh my memory as to dates, posts, etc. and clarify the timeline as to when the Jackpot was removed from Dougie's Delights. But to my recollection, there is no discrepancy that it was removed prior to TopGame even acknowledging there were any technical problems or errors in the game.

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to Noah for his professionalism, and his willingness to tackle these questions. I appreciate it, and I know there are others here who do as well. And to Rusty, for explaining things in such a way (the technical part), that even I can understand and grasp the significance of.

 

[Pinababy69]

Clarification re: Jackpot Removal

Okay, I've gone and quickly reread some of the posts in this thread:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/topgame-slots-rogue-software.31796/

Noah, if you haven't read the whole thing....I really think it would help you to maybe understand ALL the issues that Rusty and I are talking about. But as to the removal of the jackpot from Dougie's Delights, here are the relevant facts, as taken from posts in that thread.

A player named Eviecakes made this post on a forum called Casinoscamreport.com on May 26th. This was at Rome Casino btw. Link to original thread and post:

Old / Expired Link

I would just like voice a concern regarding my play Rome Casino. I have been playing there for a few weeks and did enjoy a couple of the slots like Dougiues Delights and Diablo 13. Dougiue had a rather large progressive of $192,000.00 that could only be won if the player got 5 wilds on a pay line, I played this game extensively and never once seen the wild symbol on reels 1 and 5, not even scroll by. Then one day the jackpot was gone so I concentrated on Diablo 13 as it currently has a jackpot of $145,000.00 running. Well, the game at first had wilds on all 5 reels consistently coming up at 3-4 many times making the payouts nice for the player, the bonus rounds which required at least 3 or more of the wizard to open was lousy, if you finally got it you may get $1 playing at 65 cents. Well then I logged on a few days ago to play Diablo 13 and they had changed the way the slot plays. The wilds had dissapeared from reels 1 and 5 and was rarely seen on 2, 3 and 4. But if you did get a five of a kind the payout was better than before but much harder to come by. The thing that really frustrated me was that the bonus rounds since the change now may or may not open. A few days ago when I was playing Diablo 13 I had gotten the 3 and 4 wizards 5 separate times playing max bets and not once did the bonus rounds open, which on the other few occasions when it did it was paying out better than the previous setting, but if it won't open, then the payer is being cheated out of bonus round winnings.

I wrote the casino an email voicing my concern which was not addressed. I played a $15 bonus they had put into my account yesterday and had moved on to the fruit slot that also had a progressive, but was totally irritated when the first bonus of getting 3 pineapples also did not open the bonus round.

Keep in mind, she had already written to Jonathan at TopGame at this time. The first reply she received was June 3rd (eight days after post), telling her a trouble report was being opened, and giving her a comp...but not mentioning any problem with gameplay. She again wrote to Jonathan, explaining the problem in more detail, and on June 10th (15 days after original post), she received this reply (as posted at CSR):

hi Eviecakes

Thanks for your positive response and for giving us another go - Congrats on your nice win!!!

on the technical side I promised an answer - We went game session by session to see if we had any technical or system breakdown and could not find anything accept that your internet system had time outs from time to time and this could be the only reason for your screens to not show properly - as for the game payouts, We guarantee market related and better payout in all our games. because as a new platform we need to stand our ground amongst some established names and that takes some doing. So rest assured that our games are Hot.

please contact me personally anytime you need anything at - [email protected]

best Regards and enjoy your winnings!!

Jonathan
Topgame

Finally, on June 16th, this issue was brought up at GPWA, and the APCW and the admin of Casinoscamreport, did some testing of their own on the games, and THEN it was finally admitted that there were problems.

I was under the assumption that the jackpot had been won, and asked Jonathan from TopGame about it. His reply:

3. firstly the progressive jackpot was removed from the game and not won.

It is pretty clear from the original post on CSR on May 26th, that the jackpot was gone at that time....yet according to TopGame, no technical errors plagued the games at that time. So what was their reason for removing the $192,000 jackpot sometime prior to May 26th, when the games weren't even pulled until mid June, and supposedly the game was functioning correctly (it wasn't, but according to TopGame, it was)?

I hate to add to your workload Noah...but I just took a gander over at the CSR forum to see if anything new had been added to the original thread and what do I see:

Posted by Eviecakes on August 7th (3 days ago) at CSR:

Old / Expired Link

Seems things have gotten quiet on the Top Game/Rome issue, any news? I have played there a couple times to see if there has been any changes made. I am glad to say the symbols of the wilds on some of the games are on all reels and the pistols on Fandango has been put back. I played for the last couple days on a $49 deposit I made, no bonus with it. I was going up and down in the $15 range and decided last night to play Fandango, I was surprised that I hit 3 wilds and 2 pistols on a pay line, I was playing 75 cents and won $500, cashed out $450 as I have learned if I keep playing I lose it all back to the casino, no matter where I play.

Anyways, although it is nice to see some progress, what of the other issues? Such as the still missing jackpot on Dougies Delights, which by the way now has wilds back on all reels. The issue of the outrageous wagering requirements to win a jackpot and the wilds having no value unless a player is wagering his next hundred year wages? I forget what the rest of the issues are since things have died down.

It is now August 10th....where is the $192,000? Why hasn't it been put back? And why was it removed in the first place, referencing the above timeline?

Just goes to prove you should never assume anything, because I honestly believed that 192K would have been put back in place by now.....it's been going on three months. Where is the money? Don't mean to sound short, but I really wasn't expecting this. Thanks Noah.

 

[Rusty]

Wow!

I said 2 steps forward, 1 step back - make that 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
This platform has behaved like rogues full stop.
I feel sure Noah is genuine and I feel sorry for the good managers of other Topgame casinos but bottom line, their software supplier is lousy.

1) They remove a Jackpot without explanation.
2) They fiddle with the live Jackpot games.
3) They make the payout for 5 Wilds Zero unless max bet ($45/$65)
4) The Jackpot can only be won playing $45/$65 per spin
5) Then they make the Jackpot impossible to win.
6) They are told about the fault but fail to pull the game.
7) They then state they will pull the game but when checked they have not.
8) Finally they pull the game but other faults are reported such as bonus rounds not operating correctly.
9) They promise to reinstate the jackpot when the games go back live but 3 Months later the Jackpot has not been returned.
10) They state they are being tested by TST but 2 Months later we find they are still going to be tested by TST.
11) Another symbol goes missing from another slot.
12) All the time they are unresponsive to questions except one horrible appearance here which was a PR disaster.

I mean how rogue can you get?

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - Response

Okay, I've gone and quickly reread some of the posts in this thread:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/topgame-slots-rogue-software.31796/

Noah, if you haven't read the whole thing....I really think it would help you to maybe understand ALL the issues that Rusty and I are talking about. But as to the removal of the jackpot from Dougie's Delights, here are the relevant facts, as taken from posts in that thread.

A player named Eviecakes made this post on a forum called Casinoscamreport.com on May 26th. This was at Rome Casino btw. Link to original thread and post:

Old / Expired Link



Keep in mind, she had already written to Jonathan at TopGame at this time. The first reply she received was June 3rd (eight days after post), telling her a trouble report was being opened, and giving her a comp...but not mentioning any problem with gameplay. She again wrote to Jonathan, explaining the problem in more detail, and on June 10th (15 days after original post), she received this reply (as posted at CSR):



Finally, on June 16th, this issue was brought up at GPWA, and the APCW and the admin of Casinoscamreport, did some testing of their own on the games, and THEN it was finally admitted that there were problems.

I was under the assumption that the jackpot had been won, and asked Jonathan from TopGame about it. His reply:



It is pretty clear from the original post on CSR on May 26th, that the jackpot was gone at that time....yet according to TopGame, no technical errors plagued the games at that time. So what was their reason for removing the $192,000 jackpot sometime prior to May 26th, when the games weren't even pulled until mid June, and supposedly the game was functioning correctly (it wasn't, but according to TopGame, it was)?

I hate to add to your workload Noah...but I just took a gander over at the CSR forum to see if anything new had been added to the original thread and what do I see:

Posted by Eviecakes on August 7th (3 days ago) at CSR:

Old / Expired Link



It is now August 10th....where is the $192,000? Why hasn't it been put back? And why was it removed in the first place, referencing the above timeline?

Just goes to prove you should never assume anything, because I honestly believed that 192K would have been put back in place by now.....it's been going on three months. Where is the money? Don't mean to sound short, but I really wasn't expecting this. Thanks Noah.

OK (deep breath),

Lets start discussing this, because even though I'm horrified at some of the mistakes, I don't think its as bad as you think.

First of all I ask that you acknowledge that we have been fixing the issues that have been raised, as is made clear by Eviecakes's post. The missing symbols have all been fixed, the games are in order. Things have been done.

So lets deal with things.

OK first a little time correction, the game dougie's delights has been removed in June, so it is not that the jackpot was removed for 3 months, the jackpot was gone (according to player, needs to be checked) at the end of May and the game was pulled mid june, so about 3 weeks (still horrible I'm just putting this in place) I believe it was pulled because of the jackpot problem but honestly I'm not sure why, it was done by a team that is no longer with us.

TopGame does NOT 'fool around' with jackpot games. Yes there were some pot smoking monkeys in the technical department a few months back and yes they made some really @#$ed up mistakes, which we are now paying for, like TopGame paid off the players who were affected by the first symbol missing problem, a large amount. The second did not affect any players, the game was removed immediately and fixed. So yes the game will be returned and the jackpot amount will be added back of course. About the 5 wilds and no win, I'm still waiting to see the screen shot so I can check everything out, the player says he has it so if he would please post it we can begin checking on that.

And Rusty I'm trying not to get insulted that you claim no answers from TopGame have been given except for those (idiotic) responses by Jonathan (gone now), what am I chopped liver? I have been in contact with them as much as possible in order to research answers for you. So they did respond through me. And thank you for the words about me, but I'm not the only genuine professional here, believe me. Unfortunately we are bogged down by technical mistakes made by a team that is no longer with us. We are cleaning after them and we are trying to deal with and answer all of these concerns. Yes I know its easy blaming people that aren't here anymore, but it isn't the first time I've said this, many people involved are gone now because of it.

Look, as Rome we could have disentangled ourselves from this software provider, easy. We could have even gone to RTG or any other software provider, we have the resources. But we stayed with TopGame for a reason and that is because they have some excellent ideas and excellent people, who got tied up with an ex-tech department that made a lot of issues, one of these is the 45/65 dollar thing which we are now changing as fast as possible and of course we don't expect you to play until we do. TopGame did not try to lie about this, they were actually the ones to tell you about this (Thebes rep). I know this all looks like machinations to you but these are mostly disorganized communications, which is why I'm trying to make them better. We're not giving up because mistakes were made by an ex-technical team, we deal with them and move on.

Regarding TST, I've explained before that it takes time to contact such an endeavor, its a complex and costly operation. If you have ever seen a process like this between companies, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. TopGame has been in negotiation with them for quite some time, more than two months even, and they have (finally) begun their contracted work. I hope you believe me when I say this. And yes the process itself will probably take at least another month, its a comprehensive examination and we have oh so many details to go over to make sure everything meets the standard.

I'd like to say that we are trying very hard to move forward and fix things but its not easy when every time there is even a T&C problem in a casino (like what happened in planet23) that happens to be TopGame, the attack is immediately against TopGame and all the issues they've ever had are brought up over and over again. Not that I'm blaming you, I understand your viewpoint and I just wish you could come over and see how it is here. I'm not trying to bury anything but imagine yourselves in our place - we are trying to improve everything, work things with TST, deal with issues left by an incompetent technical department, we've completely changed our CS department and its manager (yours truly), we've changed our tech department and its manager, we are coming into CM all the time to deal with things head on and we are trying to fix and deal with the issues you are telling us about, all the while you are telling us we are rogue. I'm sorry but we are not, we really are just a business trying to overcome some tech issues and move forward to be an excellent brand. I hope that after TST certifies us we will be at least given a little benefit of the doubt, because we care and no one here is calm about this.

Please continue with the questions, I'm here.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[jetset]

Wow!

I said 2 steps forward, 1 step back - make that 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
This platform has behaved like rogues full stop.
I feel sure Noah is genuine and I feel sorry for the good managers of other Topgame casinos but bottom line, their software supplier is lousy.

1) They remove a Jackpot without explanation.
2) They fiddle with the live Jackpot games.
3) They make the payout for 5 Wilds Zero unless max bet ($45/$65)
4) The Jackpot can only be won playing $45/$65 per spin
5) Then they make the Jackpot impossible to win.
6) They are told about the fault but fail to pull the game.
7) They then state they will pull the game but when checked they have not.
8) Finally they pull the game but other faults are reported such as bonus rounds not operating correctly.
9) They promise to reinstate the jackpot when the games go back live but 3 Months later the Jackpot has not been returned.
10) They state they are being tested by TST but 2 Months later we find they are still going to be tested by TST.
11) Another symbol goes missing from another slot.
12) All the time they are unresponsive to questions except one horrible appearance here which was a PR disaster.

I mean how rogue can you get?

There are so many red flags here that it looks like a Commie May Day parade!

And what about that 192K Pinababy is asking about?

 

[The Dude]

There are so many red flags here that it looks like a Commie May Day parade!

Ditto on that one

It looks to me that the TopGame product was launched about two years before it was ready. It's a Beta version - it's not a fully tested bonafide gaming platform, and I'm surprised that it hasn't been dropped by some of these operators like a hot potato.

I know there are good operators who drank the koolaid that Topgaming passed around, but they should have known better. If there are dope smoking monkeys dealing with the back end - what do you expect? Why they didn't go for RTG is beyond me. Too expensive? C'mon, in this industry you get what you pay for. RTG has been tested by not only TST but by millions of active players for years.

With the amount of "errors" that are springing up, I would not recommend any casinos that use this platform to anyone until this software is fully audited. Like jetset stated - it's a commie Mayday parade.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Ditto on that one

It looks to me that the TopGame product was launched about two years before it was ready. It's a Beta version - it's not a fully tested bonafide gaming platform, and I'm surprised that it hasn't been dropped by some of these operators like a hot potato.

I know there are good operators who drank the koolaid that Topgaming passed around, but they should have known better. If there are dope smoking monkeys dealing with the back end - what do you expect? Why they didn't go for RTG is beyond me. Too expensive? C'mon, in this industry you get what you pay for. RTG has been tested by not only TST but by millions of active players for years.

With the amount of "errors" that are springing up, I would not recommend any casinos that use this platform to anyone until this software is fully audited. Like jetset stated - it's a commie Mayday parade.

Hi,

I did not say moving to RTG was too expensive, I said we had the resources but we'd rather stay with TopGame, its a conscious choice and I remember a time not so long ago when RTG treated in quite a similar way. These many issues seem like more than they are, as they keep getting regurgitated. There were actually about 3 major problems, one was fixed and paid out back to the players, another was fixed and now we are discussing the third which happened months ago by a different tech team. And I did also mention that team is no longer in our service. Not to mention no actual screen shot was ever delivered posted. However I acknowledge that you want to wait until the TST certification is over, and I guess that is fair. We're not asking for recommendations, but please don't write off a whole line of casinos that are obviously trying to amend.

Cheers

Noah

 

[The Dude]

Hi,

I did not say moving to RTG was too expensive, I said we had the resources but we'd rather stay with TopGame, its a conscious choice and I remember a time not so long ago when RTG treated in quite a similar way. These many issues seem like more than they are, as they keep getting regurgitated. And I did also mention that team is no longer in our service. However I acknowledge that you want to wait until the TST certification is over, and I guess that is fair. We're not asking for recommendations, but please don't write off a whole line of casinos that are obviously trying to amend.

Cheers

Noah

Hi Noah,

I was making a general comment about the operators who chose Topgame - not all of the were applied strictly to you.

But you'd have to admit, if you're going with some untested software, you have to expect problems - serious ones at very least.

 

[Webzcas]

I remember a time not so long ago when RTG treated in quite a similar way.

Actually the RTG Software has always been pretty good. Unfortunately several operators who use RTG Software have been very rogue and as RTG have in the past turned a blind eye to them, it has in turn given RTG a bad name.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Hi Noah,

I was making a general comment about the operators who chose Topgame - not all of the were applied strictly to you.

But you'd have to admit, if you're going with some untested software, you have to expect problems - serious ones at very least.

Hi,

I do admit that, however the system was simply tested, as I stated in another thread, by a technical/QA team that TopGame apparently believed were competent, and were shocked to discover they were not, and they were all dismissed. I do hope the TST review will find no more issues. We are constantly looking for any.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[Rusty]

OK (deep breath),

Lets start discussing this, because even though I'm horrified at some of the mistakes, I don't think its as bad as you think.

First of all I ask that you acknowledge that we have been fixing the issues that have been raised, as is made clear by Eviecakes's post. The missing symbols have all been fixed, the games are in order. Things have been done.

So lets deal with things.

OK first a little time correction, the game dougie's delights has been removed in June, so it is not that the jackpot was removed for 3 months, the jackpot was gone (according to player, needs to be checked) at the end of May and the game was pulled mid june, so about 3 weeks (still horrible I'm just putting this in place) I believe it was pulled because of the jackpot problem but honestly I'm not sure why, it was done by a team that is no longer with us.

TopGame does NOT 'fool around' with jackpot games. Yes there were some pot smoking monkeys in the technical department a few months back and yes they made some really @#$ed up mistakes, which we are now paying for, like TopGame paid off the players who were affected by the first symbol missing problem, a large amount. The second did not affect any players, the game was removed immediately and fixed. So yes the game will be returned and the jackpot amount will be added back of course. About the 5 wilds and no win, I'm still waiting to see the screen shot so I can check everything out, the player says he has it so if he would please post it we can begin checking on that.

And Rusty I'm trying not to get insulted that you claim no answers from TopGame have been given except for those (idiotic) responses by Jonathan (gone now), what am I chopped liver? I have been in contact with them as much as possible in order to research answers for you. So they did respond through me. And thank you for the words about me, but I'm not the only genuine professional here, believe me. Unfortunately we are bogged down by technical mistakes made by a team that is no longer with us. We are cleaning after them and we are trying to deal with and answer all of these concerns. Yes I know its easy blaming people that aren't here anymore, but it isn't the first time I've said this, many people involved are gone now because of it.

Look, as Rome we could have disentangled ourselves from this software provider, easy. We could have even gone to RTG or any other software provider, we have the resources. But we stayed with TopGame for a reason and that is because they have some excellent ideas and excellent people, who got tied up with an ex-tech department that made a lot of issues, one of these is the 45/65 dollar thing which we are now changing as fast as possible and of course we don't expect you to play until we do. TopGame did not try to lie about this, they were actually the ones to tell you about this (Thebes rep). I know this all looks like machinations to you but these are mostly disorganized communications, which is why I'm trying to make them better. We're not giving up because mistakes were made by an ex-technical team, we deal with them and move on.

Regarding TST, I've explained before that it takes time to contact such an endeavor, its a complex and costly operation. If you have ever seen a process like this between companies, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. TopGame has been in negotiation with them for quite some time, more than two months even, and they have (finally) begun their contracted work. I hope you believe me when I say this. And yes the process itself will probably take at least another month, its a comprehensive examination and we have oh so many details to go over to make sure everything meets the standard.

I'd like to say that we are trying very hard to move forward and fix things but its not easy when every time there is even a T&C problem in a casino (like what happened in planet23) that happens to be TopGame, the attack is immediately against TopGame and all the issues they've ever had are brought up over and over again. Not that I'm blaming you, I understand your viewpoint and I just wish you could come over and see how it is here. I'm not trying to bury anything but imagine yourselves in our place - we are trying to improve everything, work things with TST, deal with issues left by an incompetent technical department, we've completely changed our CS department and its manager (yours truly), we've changed our tech department and its manager, we are coming into CM all the time to deal with things head on and we are trying to fix and deal with the issues you are telling us about, all the while you are telling us we are rogue. I'm sorry but we are not, we really are just a business trying to overcome some tech issues and move forward to be an excellent brand. I hope that after TST certifies us we will be at least given a little benefit of the doubt, because we care and no one here is calm about this.

Please continue with the questions, I'm here.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Trying not to get insulted by me?
Come on Noah I have been very easy on you and you will notice that it is the Topgame platform that most of my problems are with.
Funny thing though, Rome use Topgame software and you have taken it upon yourslef to represent them and answer my questions but now you want to say the forum is dragging these issues up and you feel insulted?

The issues are there not because "I claim" they have gone unanswered but because they have gone unanswered, otherwise how is it you were attempting to address them? (Thanks, but you didn't)

I may have some sympathy for your predicament, you are between a rock (Topgame) and hard place (this forum) but if I have to choose who is more worthy of protection - the Casino or the players - it will always be the players because they are essentially powerless and need to know the Casino they play at are at the very least professional.
Did I or other forum members cause all these issues or are we just reporting on them and giving our honest opinions?

It was fair comment you made about the T&C issue being an operational one and again I sympathize that these other issues get loaded onto it but again it was not the forum that refused to pay these winnings causing the issue, it was a Topgame Casino.
You can see where I am going with this?
Your change of tack is quite disheartening.

I am not telling you, you are rogue Noah, I am saying Topgame have behaved like a rogue software provider.
Unfortunately you use Topgame software, again that was not my choice but Rome Casinos.

It is pointless me listing all the things that have still not been resolved, not because I worry about regurgitating old issues that are still live but because you are under the misapprehension that they all have been resolved.
People can read the thread and judge that for themselves.

Speaking for myself;
To end this cycle of doom I will need to accept you at your word - that all the crack smoking Monkeys have been sent back to the lab and Topgame is genuinely trying to move forward.
I will have to forget about all the unanswered questions revolving around why the Jackpot game was altered while still live.
I will have to have confirmation the full Jackpot total has been returned.
I will have to stop seeing Topgame Casino complaints related to the software or any valid complaints being dismissed by snotty CS though I will try to see this as an individual operator issue.
All Topgame Casinos are independent right?
and of course I will have to see a TST certificate.

That is just my personal feeling and all that is before I even consider Topgame Casinos a place to play at.
The rest of the forum and Bryan, the one who's opinion really counts around here may have other ideas.

Nothing personal Noah, it is what it is.

 

[RomeCasino]

From Noah - response

Trying not to get insulted by me?
Come on Noah I have been very easy on you and you will notice that it is the Topgame platform that most of my problems are with.
Funny thing though, Rome use Topgame software and you have taken it upon yourslef to represent them and answer my questions but now you want to say the forum is dragging these issues up and you feel insulted?

The issues are there not because "I claim" they have gone unanswered but because they have gone unanswered, otherwise how is it you were attempting to address them? (Thanks, but you didn't)

I may have some sympathy for your predicament, you are between a rock (Topgame) and hard place (this forum) but if I have to choose who is more worthy of protection - the Casino or the players - it will always be the players because they are essentially powerless and need to know the Casino they play at are at the very least professional.
Did I or other forum members cause all these issues or are we just reporting on them and giving our honest opinions?

It was fair comment you made about the T&C issue being an operational one and again I sympathize that these other issues get loaded onto it but again it was not the forum that refused to pay these winnings causing the issue, it was a Topgame Casino.
You can see where I am going with this?
Your change of tack is quite disheartening.

I am not telling you, you are rogue Noah, I am saying Topgame have behaved like a rogue software provider.
Unfortunately you use Topgame software, again that was not my choice but Rome Casinos.

It is pointless me listing all the things that have still not been resolved, not because I worry about regurgitating old issues that are still live but because you are under the misapprehension that they all have been resolved.
People can read the thread and judge that for themselves.

Speaking for myself;
To end this cycle of doom I will need to accept you at your word - that all the crack smoking Monkeys have been sent back to the lab and Topgame is genuinely trying to move forward.
I will have to forget about all the unanswered questions revolving around why the Jackpot game was altered while still live.
I will have to have confirmation the full Jackpot total has been returned.
I will have to stop seeing Topgame Casino complaints related to the software or any valid complaints being dismissed by snotty CS though I will try to see this as an individual operator issue.
All Topgame Casinos are independent right?
and of course I will have to see a TST certificate.

That is just my personal feeling and all that is before I even consider Topgame Casinos a place to play at.
The rest of the forum and Bryan, the one who's opinion really counts around here may have other ideas.

Nothing personal Noah, it is what it is.

Hey Rusty,

First off I was only kidding about the 'insulted' thing, which is why I accompanied it with a smiley face, it was a poor attempt at humor and I'm really sorry if it seemed like I was bitching, I have no problem with you going after the facts, you should.

Just so its understood, I haven't closed the issue of the missing jackpot, its just hard to find out why as it happened months ago and was done by people who no longer work for us, I promise I will find an answer in the next few days, but I didn't want to leave the thread unanswered.

I am not attacking the forum, I think this is a wonderful place for neutrality and unbiased opinions. I just do think you are quick to put yourselves and TopGame on opposite ends, when really they are trying to listen to you. The first missing symbol WAS resolved, players paid and the problem fixed. The second symbol didn't affect anyone and was fixed. Its not true that nothing has been fix or that they did not act. Yes there are still issues open and answers to be given and I'm doing my best. I still don't think TopGame are acting like a rogue software. But I understand where you are coming from. As to your list, it was beneficial and I'll use that as a guide.

Rusty's list -

"that all the crack smoking Monkeys have been sent back to the lab and Topgame is genuinely trying to move forward" - we are, which is why these issues are top priority.
I will have to forget about all the unanswered questions revolving around why the Jackpot game was altered while still live - I will get you an answer but its still not easy, I am by no means ignoring this issue.
I will have to have confirmation the full Jackpot total has been returned - I will announce the return of the game when it is restored with the full jackpot amount.
I will have to stop seeing Topgame Casino complaints related to the software or any valid complaints being dismissed by snotty CS though I will try to see this as an individual operator issue. - Thank you and as software goes, you and I both, I'm hoping that if there are any issues still left by those we got rid of, then TST will point them out, of course we are still doing our own QA at the same time.
and of course I will have to see a TST certificate. - Fair enough, as I said that should be available within a month or so.

Again Rusty I'm very sorry if you though I was really insulted, it really was just a joke. I respect you going after the facts full force, as you well should as a surveillance camera I hope to give you more answers shortly (1-2 days).

Kind Regards,

Noah

 

[Rusty]

And Rusty I'm trying not to get insulted that you claim no answers from TopGame have been given except for those (idiotic) responses by Jonathan (gone now), what am I chopped liver?

OK if it was joke but the context within which it was written looked serious enough and I took exception to you saying that I claim the answers were not given by Topgame.
Fact they were not and they still have not been.
Never mind we can put that little misunderstanding behind us.

I will resume the watching brief I adopted at the end of the last Topgame thread and while standing by my judgement of Topgames performance so far I will look out for positive announcements in the near future.

 

[Pinababy69]

OK first a little time correction, the game dougie's delights has been removed in June, so it is not that the jackpot was removed for 3 months, the jackpot was gone (according to player, needs to be checked) at the end of May and the game was pulled mid june, so about 3 weeks (still horrible I'm just putting this in place) I believe it was pulled because of the jackpot problem but honestly I'm not sure why, it was done by a team that is no longer with us.

Please continue with the questions, I'm here.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Hi Noah,

I'm glad you've decided to stick around. I really do believe that someone from TopGame directly should be here answering these questions, but can't say I'm sorry to hear that Jonathan is gone. That was a PR nightmare.

In re: the jackpot. The 192K was removed in May, yet the game Dougie's Delights was not pulled until mid June (the time that TopGame admitted to problems with the game). So why was the jackpot removed BEFORE there was any knowledge of game malfunction?

As of August 7th, the jackpot is STILL missing. That is close to three months (May to August). Where is the $192,000? Can you or anyone here verify that the jackpot funds have been replaced in their entirety? And if not, why and where are they? If the game has been replaced, and is indeed functioning correctly, I can not think of one single reason that the jackpot itself should still be missing.

No one is trying to attack you or insult you Noah...but these are very serious questions. And as Rusty and Bryan have stated, the technical issues with these games can never be put to rest until a full audit has been completed and their functionality and fairness has been verified. Add this missing jackpot into the mix, and it's downright scary. Progressive funds (minus the seed money I guess) do not belong to the casino(s), nor to the software supplier.....that is player's money which has been accumulated from each and every spin of the game. It should never have been removed in the first place, unless the game itself was being removed. And it should most definitely not still be missing. So where's the money? I know I sound like a broken record, but it's a simple question really.

Thanks Noah.

EDIT: Note to self.....read ALL of Noah's replies prior to posting. I just saw that you said you haven't closed the Jackpot issue in your last post. Thanks. Given the fact that most of the people involved are gone, maybe an answer as to why the jackpot was removed in the first place won't be forthcoming...but this should not preclude you being able to tell us where that money is now? According to the player who posted on August 7th (four days ago), it has NOT been reinstated. We just want to know where it is and when the whole thing will be put back?

I will have to have confirmation the full Jackpot total has been returned - I will announce the return of the game when it is restored with the full jackpot amount.

Again, the game is back and "supposedly" functioning correctly, it is only the jackpot which is missing.

 

[RomeCasino]

Response from Noah

Hi Noah,

I'm glad you've decided to stick around. I really do believe that someone from TopGame directly should be here answering these questions, but can't say I'm sorry to hear that Jonathan is gone. That was a PR nightmare.

In re: the jackpot. The 192K was removed in May, yet the game Dougie's Delights was not pulled until mid June (the time that TopGame admitted to problems with the game). So why was the jackpot removed BEFORE there was any knowledge of game malfunction?

As of August 7th, the jackpot is STILL missing. That is close to three months (May to August). Where is the $192,000? Can you or anyone here verify that the jackpot funds have been replaced in their entirety? And if not, why and where are they? If the game has been replaced, and is indeed functioning correctly, I can not think of one single reason that the jackpot itself should still be missing.

No one is trying to attack you or insult you Noah...but these are very serious questions. And as Rusty and Bryan have stated, the technical issues with these games can never be put to rest until a full audit has been completed and their functionality and fairness has been verified. Add this missing jackpot into the mix, and it's downright scary. Progressive funds (minus the seed money I guess) do not belong to the casino(s), nor to the software supplier.....that is player's money which has been accumulated from each and every spin of the game. It should never have been removed in the first place, unless the game itself was being removed. And it should most definitely not still be missing. So where's the money? I know I sound like a broken record, but it's a simple question really.

Thanks Noah.

EDIT: Note to self.....read ALL of Noah's replies prior to posting. I just saw that you said you haven't closed the Jackpot issue in your last post. Thanks. Given the fact that most of the people involved are gone, maybe an answer as to why the jackpot was removed in the first place won't be forthcoming...but this should not preclude you being able to tell us where that money is now? According to the player who posted on August 7th (four days ago), it has NOT been reinstated. We just want to know where it is and when the whole thing will be put back?



Again, the game is back and "supposedly" functioning correctly, it is only the jackpot which is missing.

Hi Pinababy69,

Thank you for your exact summary and writing to the point. Let me first assure you that I was kidding about being insulted nor do I feel attacked, you guys have a good reason to be angry but everyone has been very polite to me, and I appreciate that and understand you simply want answers.

As for the jackpot, the game was not put back since it was taken off, however I promise you now I will personally make sure the sum is returned shortly and I will announce it, if not in the game then simply added to another, you are all completely right in that regard and the money will be returned in full, I have still not discovered why it was removed in the first place but I have people making inquiries for me and I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Rusty - Thank you for understanding, again I understand what you mean but I really didn't mean anything serious by that remark, so again I'm sorry.

I hope to return with more answers and better news by week's end, hopefully in a day or 2.

Kind Regards

Noah
Rome Casino

 

[Pinababy69]

Hi Pinababy69,

Thank you for your exact summary and writing to the point. Let me first assure you that I was kidding about being insulted nor do I feel attacked, you guys have a good reason to be angry but everyone has been very polite to me, and I appreciate that and understand you simply want answers.

As for the jackpot, the game was not put back since it was taken off, however I promise you now I will personally make sure the sum is returned shortly and I will announce it, if not in the game then simply added to another, you are all completely right in that regard and the money will be returned in full, I have still not discovered why it was removed in the first place but I have people making inquiries for me and I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Rusty - Thank you for understanding, again I understand what you mean but I really didn't mean anything serious by that remark, so again I'm sorry.

I hope to return with more answers and better news by week's end, hopefully in a day or 2.

Kind Regards

Noah
Rome Casino

Thanks very much for that Noah.....glad you were joking in re: the insulting part.

I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding re: Dougie's Delights. It just came back to me that there are indeed two versions of this game (if I remember previous posts correctly). A JP version and a non JP version. Is that right?

If so, perhaps the poster Eviecakes is referring to the non Jackpot version when she says that the game has been put back? Going from your post, it sounds like the jackpot version of the game, has still not been placed back into play? If that is the case, then I feel a whole lot better...but will look forward to seeing the return of the game and the funds to the jackpot.

If you can find an answer as to why they pulled the jackpot before the game.....that would be awesome. I know it gets old...but thanks again Noah.

 

[RomeCasino]

Response from Noah

Thanks very much for that Noah.....glad you were joking in re: the insulting part.

I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding re: Dougie's Delights. It just came back to me that there are indeed two versions of this game (if I remember previous posts correctly). A JP version and a non JP version. Is that right?

If so, perhaps the poster Eviecakes is referring to the non Jackpot version when she says that the game has been put back? Going from your post, it sounds like the jackpot version of the game, has still not been placed back into play? If that is the case, then I feel a whole lot better...but will look forward to seeing the return of the game and the funds to the jackpot.

If you can find an answer as to why they pulled the jackpot before the game.....that would be awesome. I know it gets old...but thanks again Noah.

Hi Pinababy69,

That is indeed the case, there is a video slots version but the jackpot version wasn't put back, I promise I will find the answer for the missing jackpot, and sooner rather than later. And thank YOU very much for your patience with me.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino