32RED downgrades TAB/SE

[aceking123]

if 32red wasn't held in such high esteem & the flagship of casinos for many years none of the people would really care , crux is there alone without starting on reps, i for one can call out about moaning at reps im one of that does, getting better though . i do think Mark should not be pulled up though maybe its time for higher ranking 32red reps to stand in on this one . i still don't think 32red is bad just completely messed it up & could of not done it at a worst point in time, with uk bank holidays & all that.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Obviously you don't have respect for Mark or you wouldn't be making sarcastic -- pointlessly sarcastic I might add -- comments like this.

You guys keep saying "don't shoot the messenger" and then you proceed to backhand him with pissy comments. Crap like that is what drives the reps off of the forums which is good for absolutely no one.

So fair warning: feel free to disagree and cross-examine all you like but keep it respectful: there is no justification for personal attacks here. If you can't tell the difference between expressing dislike for the policy changes and dissing the guy who does his best to explain those policy changes then keep your comments to yourself. If you have questions about what's acceptable ask me via PM; if I have to deal with BS like this here on the forums again it will be with the aid of the ban hammer.

Fair enough Max, the comment was sarcastic but it was not directed at Mark personally. The post was in answer to a previous post from another CM member.

I accept though your warning and express my apologies to Mark and those who felt it was offending.

However, i would expect you treat everybody equally here and feel that Mark deserves just as well a warning for posting misleading and untrue statements. Any reader of this thread reading it only up to his post thinks that 32RED has taken care of all the issues that were raised whereas they have clearly not.

First and foremost I want to state that 32Red are committed to responsible gambling. Yes, we have made some changes to procedures surrounding the closure of accounts, but by no means are these to the detriment of player protection. We are proud to be licensed in Gibraltar, Italy and the UK and always strive to operate in a manner that is compliant with the responsibilities placed upon us.

Removing the remote online facility (as required by the UKGC) is clearly to the "detriment of player protection" and in violation of the UKGC regulation

We constantly review all aspects of our operating procedures and it was evident that our approach to Self-Exclusion needed to revert to it being a more considered and deliberate action on the part of the player. Unfortunately the existing Self Exclusion facility couldn’t be adapted, so we took the decision to reintroduce our previous process, making it available from within the gaming software and without the need to interact with anybody here in order to complete the process.

No true - it is clearly not available within the gaming software and the player has to interact with 32RED Support to have it activated

It is important to remember that Take a Break is a facility that is designed to offer individuals a break so as to control their gaming and is not there, as is implied in some of the posts, as a means to protect a withdrawal from being reversed. If there are players who really can't control themselves when they are in that position, then they should contact me to see if there any alternatives available rather than using a function designed for something else. Also, regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended.

Not true and misleading - The UKGC clearly distinguishes between SE and TAB/Time Out and does not require any intervention whatsoever when players do a TAB repeatedly.

Finally (sorry for the long post), the video showing the steps to live chat in the Viper software highlighted a rather unfriendly player journey which has also been addressed. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Not true - nothing has changed, except the name on the button

 

[maxd]

However, i would expect you treat everybody equally here and feel that Mark deserves just as well a warning for posting misleading and untrue statements.

You are missing the point. I am not here to police the validity of everyone's posts: (a) one person's truth is another person's tall tale and (b) I don't have that kind of time.

My point to you -- and others in the thread who have been equally disrespectful -- is that incivility towards other forum members (particularly the reps) is not acceptable. As far as I've seen Mark has been perfectly respectful to everyone, including you, and has every right to expect the same in return. If we want the reps to participate in these discussions -- and we do! -- then we simply must ensure that they can do so without being the target of personal attacks. In other words, show some respect, whether you like them personally or not. In order for these discussions to be possible that respectfulness is not negotiable. And it is not at all the same thing as policing post content for "truth" or the lack thereof.

I'm not saying that you have to send valentines to everyone. What I am saying is that insults -- including sarcasm -- have no place in these discussions. People should make their point(s) based on the issues at hand -- as you have in several of your posts -- and keep the insults and/or belittling comments to themselves. Simples.

 

[Tirilej]

Not true - nothing has changed, except the name on the button

Not really true Harry. As far as I can see you now have the option to call them 24/7 and ask them for Taking a break.
You didn't have that option before so it's a new number just for that now.

So either send an email which they say they will answer fast, or call and have it done immediately.

I know you will dislike that too but just so you know

 

[goatwack]

I think this thread has proved that 32 Red's decision seems final and however much we dislike these changes, one rep isn't accountable or able to make these kind of amendments, it goes way higher up than that!

Best we can do is raise the issue and hope for the best. Consumers have a lot of reputable casinos to choose from and when all's said and done, one can show their disapproval by not playing there. Companies everywhere are doing their utmost to remove customer options in the name of streamlining their services so this is nothing new.

Put up or Shut up is the order of the day here, loyalty to a brand is overrated anyway and people shouldn't pine for what once was.

And ultimately, though I am guilty of this myself on occasion, the bottom line with self-control and impulsion lies with the player and the buck stops there, as much as I hate pending periods and cashouts that take 48 hrs+.

But to be fair my last withdrawal was about four months ago, I don't even remember what they look like

 

[Harry_BKK]

Not really true Harry. As far as I can see you now have the option to call them 24/7 and ask them for Taking a break.
You didn't have that option before so it's a new number just for that now.

So either send an email which they say they will answer fast, or call and have it done immediately.

I know you will dislike that too but just so you know

No Sarah, you got that wrong.

That part was referring to the change Mark confirmed to have been addressed regarding the access to LiveChat, meaning that they changed it to be more straightforward without going through several pop-ups as highlighted in Dunover's video. Has nothing to do with TAB!!!

 

[Tirilej]

No Sarah, you got that wrong.

That part was referring to the change Mark confirmed to have been addressed regarding the access to LiveChat, meaning that they changed it to be more straightforward without going through several pop-ups as highlighted in Dunover's video. Has nothing to do with TAB!!!

Well that change has at least been done so you can take a break immediately, if you want to do that. That's good

I was in checking and actually it has been changes, not just the button but also the texts and links in there.
Maybe they haven't made it perfect but it's a lot easier now to find the SE and TAB options.

I want my direct link to live chat back though, but I've said that to them before and won't repeat it again

 

[dionysus]

I want my direct link to live chat back though, but I've said that to them before and won't repeat it again

 

[Harry_BKK]

You are missing the point. I am not here to police the validity of everyone's posts: (a) one person's truth is another person's tall tale and (b) I don't have that kind of time.

My point to you -- and others in the thread who have been equally disrespectful -- is that incivility towards other forum members (particularly the reps) is not acceptable. As far as I've seen Mark has been perfectly respectful to everyone, including you, and has every right to expect the same in return. If we want the reps to participate in these discussions -- and we do! -- then we simply must ensure that they can do so without being the target of personal attacks. In other words, show some respect, whether you like them personally or not. In order for these discussions to be possible that respectfulness is not negotiable. And it is not at all the same thing as policing post content for "truth" or the lack thereof.

I'm not saying that you have to send valentines to everyone. What I am saying is that insults -- including sarcasm -- have no place in these discussions. People should make their point(s) based on the issues at hand -- as you have in several of your posts -- and keep the insults and/or belittling comments to themselves. Simples.

I am surely not missing the point Max.

I think i have treated everyone here, including Mark, with respect all the time ever since i joined CM. Especially in this thread i pointed out several times to other posters that it is not about Mark and we should not start a "witch hunt" as he is only the messenger. That shows clearly that i respect him otherwise i would not defend him by posting repeatedly those kind of messages.

I also understand that you don't have the time to read every post and validate their truthfulness. However, you are a moderator of this forum and as such should protect your readers and members from casino reps posting untrue statements. I even made the effort to point out those passages which are proven to be untrue.

Further, from your comments in your criteria for a post to be an insult.:

- posting sarcastic comments = insult
- posting untrue statements = not an insult.

To me, personally, lying is much more of an insult than sarcastic comments, hence i could ask: "has he/32RED shown me and all the other readers/members some respect???"

 

[Jhonson90]

You are missing the point. I am not here to police the validity of everyone's posts: (a) one person's truth is another person's tall tale and (b) I don't have that kind of time.

My point to you -- and others in the thread who have been equally disrespectful -- is that incivility towards other forum members (particularly the reps) is not acceptable. As far as I've seen Mark has been perfectly respectful to everyone, including you, and has every right to expect the same in return. If we want the reps to participate in these discussions -- and we do! -- then we simply must ensure that they can do so without being the target of personal attacks. In other words, show some respect, whether you like them personally or not. In order for these discussions to be possible that respectfulness is not negotiable. And it is not at all the same thing as policing post content for "truth" or the lack thereof.

I'm not saying that you have to send valentines to everyone. What I am saying is that insults -- including sarcasm -- have no place in these discussions. People should make their point(s) based on the issues at hand -- as you have in several of your posts -- and keep the insults and/or belittling comments to themselves. Simples.

You're absolutely right, I must point out, however, that all users deserve the same respect, not particularly reps,
and have offended generally a part of users participating in this thread which it's a very serious and sensitive issue,
I expressed two opinions so civil absolutely without offending anyone for which I do not feel uncivil , as I do not think
I read all these insults against Mark, person who deserves respect as all other users of the forum showing respect.
Cheers.

 

[dunover]

Not really true Harry. As far as I can see you now have the option to call them 24/7 and ask them for Taking a break.
You didn't have that option before so it's a new number just for that now.

So either send an email which they say they will answer fast, or call and have it done immediately.

I know you will dislike that too but just so you know

The thing is, as I and it seems most UKGC casinos read it, this is not in the spirit of the rules. I believe 'remotely' in the UKGC rules means exactly that - 'remote' from the casino and without directly contacting them i.e. from you account/PC.

I fear that the people on the end of the phone will start asking intrusive questions as to why they want to TAB/SE and try and persuade the caller of alternative actions other than they intended when they called. The UKGC rules do allow a phone service for SE, but not exclusively. The player must be able to REMOTELY do the actions IMMEDIATELY without influence too.

In the UK, as I assume in other countries too, when people want to leave a service i.e. insurance, broadband, TV etc. and they ring up, they are put through to the 'dissuader' team. Their job is to keep them as a customer and offer deals and reductions. These practices have been highlighted and criticized on consumer programmes like Watchdog for making it difficult. Will this happen here?

There is nothing wrong with the phone service itself. If they restored the Viper tabs that allowed the remote self-set options, then along with the phone they would have everything the UKGC requires. The tabs were simple, effective and did the job required. For their own reasons they removed them. Obviously player retention. To us players, "it wasn't broke, so don't fix it'" To them it was. Thus all the controversy.

 

[Tirilej]

The thing is, as I and it seems most UKGC casinos read it, this is not in the spirit of the rules. I believe 'remotely' in the UKGC rules means exactly that - 'remote' from the casino and without directly contacting them i.e. from you account/PC.

I fear that the people on the end of the phone will start asking intrusive questions as to why they want to TAB/SE and try and persuade the caller of alternative actions other than they intended when they called. The UKGC rules do allow a phone service for SE, but not exclusively. The player must be able to REMOTELY do the actions IMMEDIATELY without influence too.

In the UK, as I assume in other countries too, when people want to leave a service i.e. insurance, broadband, TV etc. and they ring up, they are put through to the 'dissuader' team. Their job is to keep them as a customer and offer deals and reductions. These practices have been highlighted and criticized on consumer programmes like Watchdog for making it difficult. Will this happen here?

There is nothing wrong with the phone service itself. If they restored the Viper tabs that allowed the remote self-set options, then along with the phone they would have everything the UKGC requires. The tabs were simple, effective and did the job required. For their own reasons they removed them. Obviously player retention. To us players, "it wasn't broke, so don't fix it'" To them it was. Thus all the controversy.

As i said before, I'm happy I never use those options, and for me and Harry we can't tell the casino that they have to give us the same rules as it is for you in the uk. I do know that they will follow the rules that are set up. Maybe not in the way we want them to but they will follow the rules.

The direct phone is for TAB options but not for SE. That is a different thing as you all have said. Still I think most of you should find a way of practising more self control. You shouldn't need the option. Be angry at me for saying it, but it can be done.

 

[dunover]

Well that change has at least been done so you can take a break immediately, if you want to do that. That's good

I was in checking and actually it has been changes, not just the button but also the texts and links in there.
Maybe they haven't made it perfect but it's a lot easier now to find the SE and TAB options.

I want my direct link to live chat back though, but I've said that to them before and won't repeat it again

OK I'll repeat for you.

If Tirilej doesn't get her live chat back, she'll lie face-down and kick and punch the floor...

P.S. I quoted you in my last post, but didn't see you'd mis-replied to Harry's, so ignore..

P.P.S. Just for the record, I'll remove the video soon - it's served its purpose, Mark's obviously seen it and I think that once it becomes inaccurate due to the changes it also becomes irrelevant. My intention was not to leave an indelible stain, but save words in the thread and establish the true situation at the time.

 

[sueyh]

The direct phone is for TAB options but not for SE. That is a different thing as you all have said. Still I think most of you should find a way of practising more self control.

I don't agree with you there.

Calling Europe from all the way from NZ is not funny, plus a few of my friends don't speak English. That's why they need a few options for TAB.

Honestly, automated TAB facility doesn't cost much money for the casino,-much less than running phone line for TAB, so I still don't understand why they have to get rid of it.

 

[maxd]

I am surely not missing the point Max.

I say you are, per previous post, and you haven't said anything to convince me otherwise. When you start making sarcastic jibes at a rep who has come here to answer the questions you (and others) asked him to answer then you are crossing the line, your personal definition of "respect" notwithstanding. Full stop.

I think i have treated everyone here, including Mark, with respect all the time ...

For the most part yes, you have. But "most of the time" isn't good enough in this particular instance. We have very few "zero tolerance" rules here at Casinomeister but this is one of them. Who says so? I say so and so do the Posting Rules. And as long as the big guy has given me leave to make such decisions I can and I will. Sorry but them's the breaks.

... you are a moderator of this forum and as such should protect your readers and members from casino reps posting untrue statements.

In an ideal world that might be a possibility but I doubt it. In any case that's not the world I'm living in so no, policing "untrue statements" is not my mandate. To be frank we pretty much expect you guys to be carrying the better part of that torch and, you may have noticed, I have no quarrel when you do. On the contrary, we have set up a variety of group designations here at Casinomeister to recognize that role and the good work you do. Meister Minions, the CAG, etc are examples of such. Why? Because the reality is that Bryan and I have two sets of eyes between us, you guys are many, many times that. We build and maintain the stage, you guys are the show. Such is the nature of life on the forums.

To me, personally, lying is much more of an insult than sarcastic comments ...

The key words there are "to me personally". I am not you, I don't see it the way you do for a variety of hard-won reasons which I won't go into here because they would take this already derailed discussion further afield. Suffice it to say that as far as forums go truth is debatable -- and should be debated! -- but insults are destructive and corrosive. Whether you agree or not is not particularly my concern: I've made more mistakes than most when it comes to forum management and what I've learned is that forums thrive and survive when the membership maintains a reasonable standard of civility. And so that standard will be maintained. Again, full stop.

And that I believe is enough on that particular subject. If you wish to continue our debate on my role as moderator or suchlike please contact me via PM or, if you think it would be better done in public, start a thread elsewhere for that specific purpose. Here however I think it's time we should return to the subject at hand, without the personal attacks. Please and thank you.

 

[maxd]

... all users deserve the same respect, not particularly reps ...

Sorry but yes, particularly reps. Why? Because they are here to give forum members help and advice at the grace of their employer. If we piss them off they are gone and the line of communication to that casino closes, possibly for good. The membership at large is not in that situation so yes, particular care must be taken when dealing with the reps. I don't think it's a matter of being unfair or holding a double standard, I think it's simply a matter of recognizing that we are fortunate to have the reps with us and their exceptional status demands exceptional care and handling in return. If they leave we lose an invaluable resource which would be a considerable loss to us all.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Not really true Harry. As far as I can see you now have the option to call them 24/7 and ask them for Taking a break.
You didn't have that option before so it's a new number just for that now.

So either send an email which they say they will answer fast, or call and have it done immediately.

I know you will dislike that too but just so you know

The thing is, as I and it seems most UKGC casinos read it, this is not in the spirit of the rules. I believe 'remotely' in the UKGC rules means exactly that - 'remote' from the casino and without directly contacting them i.e. from you account/PC.

I fear that the people on the end of the phone will start asking intrusive questions as to why they want to TAB/SE and try and persuade the caller of alternative actions other than they intended when they called. The UKGC rules do allow a phone service for SE, but not exclusively. The player must be able to REMOTELY do the actions IMMEDIATELY without influence too.

Sarah, read the post below. That is exactly what Dunover is referring to.

Whether that happened as posted we don't know as 32RED has yet to provide an answer. That player will most certainly not ask for it again as hardly anybody likes to be questioned about such sensitive matters. It would also be a serious violation of UKGC RG rules if it indeed happened.

I've posted about this before, I had a £200 WD pending, and i wanted to take a 7day break so that I wouldn't reverse.

I e-mailed and spoke ton live chat and they tried to persuade me to stay, and left my account active for the whole pending period, I think I was 10 days before it was closed.

I've since vacated 32red, every move they make seems to be backwards, and it's quite disheartening considering I've been playing there for many years.

 

[Jhonson90]

Sorry but yes, particularly reps. Why? Because they are here to give forum members help and advice at the grace of their employer. If we piss them off they are gone and the line of communication to that casino closes, possibly for good. The membership at large is not in that situation so yes, particular care must be taken when dealing with the reps. I don't think it's a matter of being unfair or holding a double standard, I think it's simply a matter of recognizing that we are fortunate to have the reps with us and their exceptional status demands exceptional care and handling in return. If they leave we lose an invaluable resource which would be a considerable loss to us all.

Hi Max, what I meant to write is that a person or is respected or not respected, at least for me,
so I respect you Maxd as Mark as Harry in the same way, that is, I can not respect a person at 50%,
only this.
I know that the presence of Mark is important for all of us in the forum, as well as other reps.
Cheers.

 

[Valhalla]

And as predicted:



Well there you have it. As vague and unnecessary as the explanation for the payment system changing that first time.
I don't blame Mark at all, and in many ways I feel for the man. He does do his best and is well liked on these forums for all his work down the years. He's only saying what he's been told to say and I won't shoot the messenger.
But seriously, I will shoot the message because the explanation is horse shit. You know it. I know it. We all know it.

I just want to say publicly that my comment here is perhaps a bit harsh.
I want to reiterate that in no way was I attacking Mark personally. I believe what he wrote was a purely corporate response [probably written at boardroom level] which did little to answer or even remotely appease the issues raised in this thread.
So to you Mark, personally, I apologise for any offence caused. It was not intentional.

Back to the issue:

It's frustrating that yet again 32Red take a step backwards which sees a hugely negative reaction here, but eventually the dust settles and we adjust. Then after a while, another step backwards (and so on and so forth).
If all these changes were implemented at once, Casinomeister would go into MELTDOWN. But 32Red are just chipping away at their own brand slowly but surely. And we are the proverbial frog sitting in cold water that is gradually heating up.

 

[Tirilej]

Sarah, read the post below. That is exactly what Dunover is referring to.

Whether that happened as posted we don't know as 32RED has yet to provide an answer. That player will most certainly not ask for it again as hardly anybody likes to be questioned about such sensitive matters. It would also be a serious violation of UKGC RG rules if it indeed happened.

I hear what you're saying Harry but knowing and talking to these guys as much as I have done, I would never believe they would act in that kind of immoral way.
Things can go wrong. They do have a lot of customers to take care of, but to deliberately hold someone with a gambling problem, then no way.
They are careful and they are caring people, even though they run a business.

That is what I feel and believe.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Here however I think it's time we should return to the subject at hand, without the personal attacks. Please and thank you.

Fully agree Max

 

[Harry_BKK]

I hear what you're saying Harry but knowing and talking to these guys as much as I have done, I would never believe they would act in that kind of immoral way.
Things can go wrong. They do have a lot of customers to take care of, but to deliberately hold someone with a gambling problem, then no way.
They are careful and they are caring people, even though they run a business.

That is what I feel and believe.

Well, a simple answer with the facts would erase all doubts.

 

[dionysus]

Well, a simple answer with the facts would erase all doubts.

Frankly, I don't think they owe you an answer.
If the person allegedly wronged were inclined, they could start a thread postiing and requesting feedback and answers.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Frankly, I don't think they owe you an answer.
If the person allegedly wronged were inclined, they could start a thread postiing and requesting feedback and answers.

They don't owe me anything!!!! Nothing, nada, not even what the dirt under the fingernails is worth.

They are running a business regulated by the UKGC and according to their present SE procedure and including the aforementioned post by xxshepxx they are allegedly in violation of the rules set out by the GC.

The OP posted in this thread stating clearly that he posted the issue before. Hence i think that should suffice as a request for an answer.

Would be perfectly OK if they sort it out between them via PMs or direct contact to the OP, nobody else needs to be involved. I am sure he would then post a message thanking 32RED for the resolution/clearing-up of the issue.

 

[dionysus]

They don't owe me anything!!!! Nothing, nada, not even what the dirt under the fingernails is worth.

They are running a business regulated by the UKGC and according to their present SE procedure and including the aforementioned post by xxshepxx they are in violation of the rules set out by the GC.

The OP posted in this thread stating clearly that he posted the issue before. Hence i think that should suffice as a request for an answer.

Would be perfectly OK if they sort it out between them via PMs or direct contact to the OP, nobody else needs to be involved. I am sure he would then post a message thanking 32RED for the resolution/clearing-up of the issue.

Allegedly in violation. No more, no less.
And sure, the op posted. The op also never solicted answers nor feedback.
If he wants an answer, he's welcome to seek one I'm certain.

(let's not even address the related privacy issues here - if Mark responded with details, it would be a whole new lynch mob)

 

[Tirilej]

They don't owe me anything!!!! Nothing, nada, not even what the dirt under the fingernails is worth.

They are running a business regulated by the UKGC and according to their present SE procedure and including the aforementioned post by xxshepxx they are in violation of the rules set out by the GC.

The OP posted in this thread stating clearly that he posted the issue before. Hence i think that should suffice as a request for an answer.

Would be perfectly OK if they sort it out between them via PMs or direct contact to the OP, nobody else needs to be involved. I am sure he would then post a message thanking 32RED for the resolution/clearing-up of the issue.

I checked his posts and I couldn't see that he have had any issues with 32Red more than technical.
Except that he couldn't win there and didn't remember the last time he had a withdrawal from them.

Maybe it's him you should ask again if he maybe didn't mix up what casino it happened at or so.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Why are you all attacking me???

Did i do something wrong by opening a thread with a potential license violation??? Or is it because it is 32RED???

Either way, i can't care less and will stop posting as it seems nobody is interested in accurate and truthful answers. In contrary every word what i post is contested, yet the answers from 32RED you just accepted without comment.



Tirilej/Sarah - you can only go back a few weeks in the history to check on his previous posts, hence you can't really know if he posted or not. XXXSHEPXX has been a member at CM since 2012, so i don't think he would just post something which is unfounded.

Dyonisus - changed my last post accordingly = added "allegedly"

 

[dionysus]

Why are you all attacking me???

Attacking you?
Harry, you're beating a drum to lord knows what.
The issue you're addressing regarding another's post is simply not, yours nor my, nor anyone's business but the OP's and 32Red's, unless the op him/herself decides to pursue it publicly here. Who are you to demand answers regarding someone else's case, which from what I can see, is a non-case to begin because the op hasn't initiated one here.

He posted. He sought no response. Mark sure as Hell isn't obligated to create one where none was solicited by the party involved.
Why you're taking my post or others' personally, I've no clue. But if you feel you're being attacked, pm max to address it.

 

[nutnut]

Why are you all attacking me???

Did i do something wrong by opening a thread with a potential license violation??? Or is it because it is 32RED???

Either way, i can't care less and will stop posting as it seems nobody is interested in accurate and truthful answers. In contrary every word what i post is contested, yet the answers from 32RED you just accepted without comment.



Tirilej/Sarah - you can only go back a few weeks in the history to check on his previous posts, hence you can't really know if he posted or not. XXXSHEPXX has been a member at CM since 2012, so i don't think he would just post something which is unfounded.

Dyonisus - changed my last post accordingly = added "allegedly"

I don't think anyone is attacking you, but i sense you are wanting others to join the outrage and after a few days people are just not as angry as you. For me the real issues i have with 32red are not this issue you're mentioning and i find the reaction and responses quite over the top if im honest.

 

[Tirilej]

Why are you all attacking me???

Did i do something wrong by opening a thread with a potential license violation??? Or is it because it is 32RED???

Either way, i can't care less and will stop posting as it seems nobody is interested in accurate and truthful answers. In contrary every word what i post is contested, yet the answers from 32RED you just accepted without comment.



Tirilej/Sarah - you can only go back a few weeks in the history to check on his previous posts, hence you can't really know if he posted or not. XXXSHEPXX has been a member at CM since 2012, so i don't think he would just post something which is unfounded.

Dyonisus - changed my last post accordingly = added "allegedly"

I''m not attacking you, noone is. I believe more people agree with you so don't worry.
I believe in truth and that I hope we all will get.
I only read back 4 months but I suspect that the casino will look too. They want to know what happened and since he hadn't complain they maybe didn't know. Now I mean the reps here. I also sent him a pm and begged him to solve it for both parts.

You're in such a hurry Harry. -slow down!

 

[goatwack]

I could swear my partner is having an affair. We seem to be getting mail at all strange hours of the day, and she keeps insisting that it's all recorded signed for?

Now our milk deliveries have stopped too! Probably best I lock her back in the cupboard, better safe than sorry

 

[dunover]

Why are you all attacking me???

Did i do something wrong by opening a thread with a potential license violation??? Or is it because it is 32RED???

Either way, i can't care less and will stop posting as it seems nobody is interested in accurate and truthful answers. In contrary every word what i post is contested, yet the answers from 32RED you just accepted without comment.



Tirilej/Sarah - you can only go back a few weeks in the history to check on his previous posts, hence you can't really know if he posted or not. XXXSHEPXX has been a member at CM since 2012, so i don't think he would just post something which is unfounded.

Dyonisus - changed my last post accordingly = added "allegedly"

Harry, I'd leave that one mate. If what he said is kosher then yes, it's poor but we have no real evidence - the main concern is the meddling with RG settings and lack of them (remote) which appears to stretch the intent and wording of the UKGC's section 3.5 to the limit, if not beyond. Of that we have plenty of evidence.

I agree we haven't been over-endowed with cohesive and definitive answers from 32red, but I think their journey thus far down their current path leaves us little doubt as to the motives for it.

I know Dionysus and Tirilej want to believe or see the best in people and that's commendable. But there's no 'accident or mistake' here - an accredited site has very deliberately removed or obstructed remote self-set player protection. No matter what your knowledge or opinions of individuals are, that fact stinks to high heaven.

It's a diversion and an irrelevance people saying "I don't use or need these controls" or "I think most of you should find a way of practising more self control. You shouldn't need the option." That is merely an opinion. A fact however, is that the legal regulator has stipulated they SHOULD be in place.
And in 99% of UKGC sites they are. QED

I am not motivated by bashing the group, but by disappointment, nearly shock at recent events. They used to stand out from the rest for positive reasons. Now they stand out by going backwards when the rest go forward. It's a damning indictment of someone, somewhere making bad decisions who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[dionysus]

I know Dionysus and Tirilej want to believe or see the best in people and that's commendable. But there's no 'accident or mistake' here - an accredited site has very deliberately removed or obstructed remote self-set player protection. No matter what your knowledge or opinions of individuals are, that fact stinks to high heaven.

I've zero clue why you've referenced me here. I've stated repeatedly there's valid concerns and value in the thread along with thanking Harry's initial post back when.

 

[dunover]

I've zero clue why you've referenced me here. I've stated repeatedly there's valid concerns and value in the thread along with thanking Harry's initial post back when.

Nor have I actually. It must me an amalgamation of your exchanges with Harry prior to my post. D'oh!

 

[dunover]

I''m not attacking you, noone is. I believe more people agree with you so don't worry.
I believe in truth and that I hope we all will get.
I only read back 4 months but I suspect that the casino will look too. They want to know what happened and since he hadn't complain they maybe didn't know. Now I mean the reps here. I also sent him a pm and begged him to solve it for both parts.

You're in such a hurry Harry. -slow down!

Sorry I could NOT resist this, a light hearted insert into this thread......

YOUR FAULT Tirilej, you got me thinking of this......

 

[dionysus]

Sorry I could NOT resist this, a light hearted insert into this thread......

I read her post in Hermione's voice

 

[Tirilej]

Sorry I could NOT resist this, a light hearted insert into this thread......

YOUR FAULT Tirilej, you got me thinking of this......

It's ok to put the blame on me

But I must add that I don't either approve or think that 32Red's way of changing things are great, don't think that for a second. I just try to see things from both ways, and also see what feedback they have listened to. Anger don't lead so far. Reason does.
As I said earlier. I miss the old 32Red very much.

 

[Steviedoo]

Denial anger bargaining depression acceptance.

What stage are we at?

 

[goatwack]

Denial anger bargaining depression acceptance.

What stage are we at?

We've had the anger phase, I'd say we're actually attempting to bargain via this thread right now. Hopefully in due course we'll get some resolution to this. Acceptance will have to come from each individual who chooses to continue playing there. Depression is already integrated into slot sessions by default so we can skip that one!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Why was this change seemingly "rushed through" just before everyone went away for Easter? No one thought to do a walk through test before it went live, whereupon it would have been plainly obvious that the change had unintentionally broken the TAB option, which is the main driver of this shitstorm. Further choosing just before the long holiday meant that said shitstorm was free to rage unchecked over 4 consecutive holiday days, rather than just a weekend. It has taken until today for the execs at 32Red to get the fire extinguishers out and attempt to mitigate the bad PR, which doesn't seem to have been as effective as they had hoped.

If players use TAB to help them with their willpower in not reversing a withdrawal, it is because there is no effective alternative. The forum is littered with sad tales of players who have reversed and blown the lot because there has been some delay, be that documentation issues or a logjam in the processing. TAB is actually an EXCELLENT tool to manage this as it means that players can decide not to reverse their win, and then set a TAB of the exact number of days they estimate it will take for it to be processed. This is far better than the previous advice to "uninstall the casino", which with the Viper client ensured it was difficult to lose willpower and reverse in a heated moment due to the several hours you had to reconsider your action whilst the client was reinstalling.

An alternative could be a "lock withdrawal" option so that it could only be reversed by contacting CS, rather than from within the software. In very much the same way 32Red justifies the change to SE and TAB so as to ensure players take a more considered and deliberate action, it can be argued that such a withdrawal lock will ensure that the decision to reverse is also "considered and deliberate".

If 32Red contend that players who feel they need such an option should really consider themselves as "problem gamblers", does this mean that such players should really be using self exclusion, rather than misusing TAB to bolster their willpower after having made a withdrawal?

It's up to the UKGC whether or not the changes still meet the requirements. It may be that the UKGC have not ensured players understand the requirements, and are thus expecting a higher standard to be enforced under the wording of the regulation than was intended.

It's only when something goes wrong in the responsible gambling field that casinos will find out whether or not they have done what the UKGC expected of them, rather than what they think the minimum they can get away with under the regulations is.

Mark hasn't explained WHY 32Red felt a change was necessary, although if it was down to players using SE when they should have been using TAB, the current change isn't going to make a difference because TAB no longer visibly exists, and it's ONLY the SE that players are likely to come across because this is the responsible gambling option that has been given the most publicity. It could even lead to players complaining that they ended up in deeper trouble because the RG options were so difficult to navigate at the time they first thought they ought to do something, and so they gave up and ended up getting in even deeper on the next session.

A possible fix would be an automatic application of a 24 hour TAB when a player actions the more cumbersome system now in place, so at least whilst they are making a more "deliberate and considered" decision as to which RG option to choose, they still have a 24 hour lock on their account which should at least protect them until they have made their considered decision between a short TAB, a longer SE, or simply letting the 24 hour lock expire and playing again.

 

[Blathaon]

It's pretty clear that 32Red doesn't care what anyone here thinks. As has been pointed out in this thread they don't need the approval of the forum, even if everyone here closed their 32Red accounts it wouldn't matter as we simply are too few to make an impact. The CM forum is great but it only represents a tiny fraction of the overall casino player base.

32Red have been lowering the bar for years, first they increased the pending period and removed weekend withdrawals, then it was the ability to flush. And the bonus offers have decreased steadily. Now it's this fiasco. What's next? Longer pending period? Higher WR?

I personally believe that casinos that have a pending period longer than a few hours shouldn't even be accredited. There is no reason for them to have it, and when they don't even offer weekend withdrawals it just becomes ridiculous.

I have requested that my 32Red account be closed, i can't support a casino that treat their customers like this.

 

[Tirilej]

Another fun thing in this is that their previous decision to not let people flush their cashouts, was told because that gave support too much to do.
They would now be able to help customers with more important things.

When players now found another way of flushing/stopping themselves from reversing without the need of bothering CS, that wasn't ok anyway.
Suddenly it is ok to bother CS with both emails and phonecalls

 

[Deeplay]

Denial anger bargaining depression acceptance.

What stage are we at?

Well i have never been depressed by this and neither in denial as the facts seem pretty clear to me personally.

It is just personally I dont like the way this casino does things any longer at all. So I will not deposit at 32red again
unless I feel they are making changes which I agree with. Personal choice and im sure many wont feel the same and thats fine.

IMO much better places now to play at where I feel valued as a player - where I get value for my deposits and where
I can keep control of spending through built in functions available. Adios 32red for the time being - software uninstalled.

 

[Nate]

I am disheartened to see that this group seeks to profit from something that could potentially destroy lives and families. When all is said and done, it IS up to the individual - but If everyone had the sanity to stay on the right track, then we wouldn't have drug addicts, alcoholics etc. No one is perfect and we ALL have our own demons.

I hope I am wrong here but everything i see in this thread points to greed, money and the bottom line. I cannot fathom that 32Red (Casino of the Decade) would stoop to a level where they are trying to prevent an instant self exclusion or even players from taking a break.

Which company in their right mind tries to take advantage of a potential life destroying habit? Its clear to me that companies who would do this fall into the bracket of deceitful and shady enterprises. As glossy and glittery they may look on the surface, their intentions are cruel and evil. Their intentions are by no means in the interest of their customers.

Money talks - Bullshit walks - 32Red spin it the way you like, but your actions are unethical, deceitful and down right disrespectful to the industry at large - I don't think there will be any need to elaborate on the way things are 'snuck' in during weekends and holiday times or the fact that you make it more and more difficult for players to self exclude. I think the membership at large have gone through it and pointed out obvious flaws and deliberate changes.

Lastly, you have a tab on your home page Responsible Gaming - 'Our Commitment to you' - Try and be honest about yourselves for a change and change it to 'Our Commitment to keep you playing'....


Nate

 

[dunover]

Another fun thing in this is that their previous decision to not let people flush their cashouts, was told because that gave support too much to do.
They would now be able to help customers with more important things.

When players now found another way of flushing/stopping themselves from reversing without the need of bothering CS, that wasn't ok anyway.
Suddenly it is ok to bother CS with both emails and phonecalls

EXACTLY! This has been a PR disaster. Remember the thread I started (when I was doing some work going through all the Viper terms) and Mark gave us a 'Dunover Tournament'? I felt it necessary to point out in all fairness that their terms didn't have all the BS limitations like 6x D maximum w/d if you took a SUB etc. and that 24 hrs. was still the quickest Viper processing delay. This is still the case and if you play Viper you'd still use 32red sites or Casino Rewards over the rest.

BUT:

The recent RG impositions have made me feel a bit embarrassed and foolish in retrospect. RG is an emotive subject and what Tirilej says here about CS being too busy to handle flushing (a very quick process for them) but suddenly now having time and extra resources to mess about and discuss RG which hitherto the player could do all by himself, well - it just doesn't make sense or add up, does it? As Nate said, money is at the root of it all.

Some accountant has worked out the figures, it will make more money and so that's the way it is. Only this time they have encroached into the RG minefield, and IMO that is unethical and unacceptable. The metaphorical straw that broke the camel's back. As I have stated already, I am genuinely shocked by this. If someone told me they'd done this I'd have thought it a was a wind-up until I saw this thread.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I just hope the board at 32Red know what they are doing. This isn't the old days of Windows XP and almost total domination by download clients if players wanted a decent gaming experience. We now have a whole new breed of web based casinos that seem to have evolved to the point that the positives they can offer like multiple providers, quick processing of withdrawals, etc, are beginning to outweigh the negative aspects of browser based play that were quite frankly a pain in the arse.

In fact, the current 32Red instant casino is actually a web based rendering of the Viper download client, complete with tournaments, games sorted in categories and alphabetical order, etc - yet 32Red seem to want to replace this with a browser based casino where games are not sorted into any kind of order, and tournaments are no longer available.

It is competition that will be the driving factor when it comes to 32Red having the opportunity to "repent at leisure" in a couple of years time. RG may not be the main issue either, the instant payments and games from multiple providers in a single package may lure players away from the single provider option, whether download or browser based. I even see that the Viper slots tournament is being replicated by many of these browser based casinos.

Now, when even I start saying I have "gone off of Viper" in favour of browser casinos, it's time for old school casinos like 32Red and Casino Rewards to REALLY start to worry about the browser based newcomers.

I will be upgrading to Windows 10 this summer whilst it is still free, and at this point I will probably start testing out a few of the browser based casinos, mostly the ones that have been held in high regard here. My main criteria will be Neteller friendly and free deposits and withdrawals, as this has always been my experience so far since 2004 with playing mostly download casinos. The UK Pound and no conversion charges will also be essential.

 

[Deeplay]

I just hope the board at 32Red know what they are doing. This isn't the old days of Windows XP and almost total domination by download clients if players wanted a decent gaming experience. We now have a whole new breed of web based casinos that seem to have evolved to the point that the positives they can offer like multiple providers, quick processing of withdrawals, etc, are beginning to outweigh the negative aspects of browser based play that were quite frankly a pain in the arse.

In fact, the current 32Red instant casino is actually a web based rendering of the Viper download client, complete with tournaments, games sorted in categories and alphabetical order, etc - yet 32Red seem to want to replace this with a browser based casino where games are not sorted into any kind of order, and tournaments are no longer available.

It is competition that will be the driving factor when it comes to 32Red having the opportunity to "repent at leisure" in a couple of years time. RG may not be the main issue either, the instant payments and games from multiple providers in a single package may lure players away from the single provider option, whether download or browser based. I even see that the Viper slots tournament is being replicated by many of these browser based casinos.

Now, when even I start saying I have "gone off of Viper" in favour of browser casinos, it's time for old school casinos like 32Red and Casino Rewards to REALLY start to worry about the browser based newcomers.

I will be upgrading to Windows 10 this summer whilst it is still free, and at this point I will probably start testing out a few of the browser based casinos, mostly the ones that have been held in high regard here. My main criteria will be Neteller friendly and free deposits and withdrawals, as this has always been my experience so far since 2004 with playing mostly download casinos. The UK Pound and no conversion charges will also be essential.

The writing has been on the wall for some time with the birth of multi platform operators. Either stay with the times or fall way behind. And I a am amazed some operations still do rely solely on providing games from 1 platform only. Browser based gaming is here to stay. It is the future - and we will see bigger and better operations by those that were and are at the forefront of this revolution. These new players in the industry the pioneers are the future. And any company not up with them and the way things are going - especially with online gaming and the interaction players are more and more demanding are doomed in the long run.

I can foresee things developing much more along the lines of what we have social media wise. Fluid open platforms with players connecting - 1000s of games to choose from and the ever growing presence of 3d environments. The viper client is old out-dated limited and quite frankly an embarrassment. Sorry for de-rail and nope this aint aimed any one company in particular just a bunch of personal views

 

[dunover]

OK, an update. I have had my final little farewell punt and closed my 3 active 32red accounts for 5 years.

Nedplay - went through 4 or 5 pages and logged in once extra to the Viper I was already logged into. Had to enter password twice more. 10 x harder than the normal 'check the box and hit confirm button' at other casinos, BUT IT WAS REMOTE AND AUTOMATED!

Golden Lounge - went through 4 or 5 pages and logged in once extra to the Viper I was already logged into. Had to enter password twice more. 10 x harder than the normal 'check the box and hit confirm button' at other casinos, BUT IT WAS REMOTE AND AUTOMATED!

32Red - complete hassle, NO REMOTE AUTOMATED SERVICE despite using the word 'automated' in their RG spiel. Also no remote automated TAB that I could see. So went through the layers and layers of pop-ups, log-in boxes, password entries and all I got was an e-mail with a PDF form attached. 5 minutes later, filled it in, saved it, attached it and sent it back. As of now can still log-in and play. NOT IMMEDIATE!

This is what you would get apparently at a land-based bookies, only difference is you'd attach a photo to it? Anyway, I can confirm that SE is not immediate, contrary to the intent and wording of the UKGC. It is not automated in the sense of how other casinos have automated it.

I have done this because even if they reinstated proper UKGC RG standards as all the other sites have, the fact they even did this irresponsible deed in the first place just means that to me they ain't the sort of people or business I ever want to give another cent to - and I won't.

So quite tidy in a way, I can now clear the crap and constantly reinstalling and opening and closing Viper Clients and their files from my PC. I can also walk away from this thread and any others that arise in future because I am now an ex-customer.

So, to the ever-decreasing band of people on here still playing there, good luck and I hope you don't have any further quality of service reductions in future! Although thinking about it there's little else they can do to you now bar increase pending to 48 hours; most of the reasons to play there in my opinion are already gone.

 

[petro]

Sorry, I have not read all the posts but I am familiar with the topic.

My opinion is that 32Red are preying of people's weaknesses. Removal of the "take a break" feature is exactly like removing flushing withdrawals.
I think it is a deliberate attempt to make more money but I don't think 32Red will ever publicly state that.

Can you imagine if Mark said something like: "Hey guys, in order for 32Red plc to maximise profits we are taking away flushing withdrawals and the take a break option and have a nice day. "
They would be publicly crucified if they ever said that.

Could be just me but 32Red seem to be becoming shrewd lately; maybe too shrewd for me to be depositing!

"We constantly review all aspects of our operating procedures and it was evident that our approach to Self-Exclusion needed to revert to it being a more considered and deliberate action on the part of the player." I think the question is: will the change help problem gamblers or will it hurt problem gamblers. And I can't see how making it harder for problem gamblers to SE is going to help.

In any case I can't tell if 32Red are being irresponsible here. I think it is a complicated topic, it's like the question of "how fast is too fast" in relation to road rules or "how safe is safe" in regards to workplace safety. You can of course, refer to authority for the answers but how do they come to those conclusions?


Some additional info: I accidentally SEed from Video Slots for a few weeks. I was wanting to change my max bet option.
That inconveniences me as a player but I am happy to "take a hit" in order to help problem gamblers.

 

[Blathaon]

OK, an update. I have had my final little farewell punt and closed my 3 active 32red accounts for 5 years.

Nedplay - went through 4 or 5 pages and logged in once extra to the Viper I was already logged into. Had to enter password twice more. 10 x harder than the normal 'check the box and hit confirm button' at other casinos, BUT IT WAS REMOTE AND AUTOMATED!

Golden Lounge - went through 4 or 5 pages and logged in once extra to the Viper I was already logged into. Had to enter password twice more. 10 x harder than the normal 'check the box and hit confirm button' at other casinos, BUT IT WAS REMOTE AND AUTOMATED!

32Red - complete hassle, NO REMOTE AUTOMATED SERVICE despite using the word 'automated' in their RG spiel. Also no remote automated TAB that I could see. So went through the layers and layers of pop-ups, log-in boxes, password entries and all I got was an e-mail with a PDF form attached. 5 minutes later, filled it in, saved it, attached it and sent it back. As of now can still log-in and play. NOT IMMEDIATE!

This is what you would get apparently at a land-based bookies, only difference is you'd attach a photo to it? Anyway, I can confirm that SE is not immediate, contrary to the intent and wording of the UKGC. It is not automated in the sense of how other casinos have automated it.

I have done this because even if they reinstated proper UKGC RG standards as all the other sites have, the fact they even did this irresponsible deed in the first place just means that to me they ain't the sort of people or business I ever want to give another cent to - and I won't.

So quite tidy in a way, I can now clear the crap and constantly reinstalling and opening and closing Viper Clients and their files from my PC. I can also walk away from this thread and any others that arise in future because I am now an ex-customer.

So, to the ever-decreasing band of people on here still playing there, good luck and I hope you don't have any further quality of service reductions in future! Although thinking about it there's little else they can do to you now bar increase pending to 48 hours; most of the reasons to play there in my opinion are already gone.

I have had the same experience, i self excluded from Dash, Nedplay and Golden Lounge for 5 years. I would like to close the accounts permanently, but i couldn't find any button for that and i can't be bothered to send more emails to them.

But at 32Red i ran into the same issues as you, so i emailed them to close my account. After an hour i got an email back asking me for my Date of birth and postal code, which i answered and emailed back. Then i got this email

Madness, so the first guy couldn't even close the account. And it can take them 3 days to review my request? what needs to be reviewed? are they going to decide whether or not I'm even allowed to close my account or what
At every other casino that i have closed accounts at in the past they either have a button on their site, or you email them and they close the account within a few hours with no hassle.

As of now it has been 17 hours and the 32Red account is still open.

I will end with this.