WT.... has happened to Fruit Warp?!

[dutchyboy]

Hi all,

Just wanted to know if the players of the Thunderkick's Fruit Warp game also experience a lot more bad game outcomes than it used to give before...

Since a few weeks ago, the game was updated to version 2.7.1. From then on the game started to give lots of bad results, for example, I haven't got to the last (end) multiplier in around 400 spins. And when I get to the last spot before the last multiplier, it throws me out.

Now they updated again, version 2.8.0 i believe, and it has become even worse. The game keeps throwing me out of the bonus game as quick as possible. It made me crazy when I played today.

Any other opinions over here? I can't imagine I am the only one who is experiencing this.... they must have changed the game in my opinion!
Bad move Thunderkick, will play other games (and Fruit Warp used to be my favourite, well 100% sure it isn't my favourite right now anymore!)

 

[AnnaTS]

The only reason why someone isn't winning on a slot is because it isn't ready to pay out when that person is playing you have just been playing it when it isn't ready to pay out, The slot may not be a popular slot or it may not be as popular as it once was.

I know i have seen twitch streamers play this slot but they're only a tiny percentage of the people who play slots, Some people may have experienced what you have and gone never playing this slot again which may have lead to a decline in people playing it.

These are the only things i can say but with thousands of slots online there is going to be some slots that don't get played as much as other slots so it will take longer to see really nice wins from slots that just don't get played as much as others.

 

[dutchyboy]

The only reason why someone isn't winning on a slot is because it isn't ready to pay out when that person is playing you have just been playing it when it isn't ready to pay out, The slot may not be a popular slot or it may not be as popular as it once was.

I know i have seen twitch streamers play this slot but they're only a tiny percentage of the people who play slots, Some people may have experienced what you have and gone never playing this slot again which may have lead to a decline in people playing it.

These are the only things i can say but with thousands of slots online there is going to be some slots that don't get played as much as other slots so it will take longer to see really nice wins from slots that just don't get played as much as others.

Totally disagree with your statement. The game definitely changed. Just played another time and what I am seeing is unbelievable bad, and it keeps happening over and over.
When having a good symbol, instantly the bonus game ends without any other of the fruit you got in bonus mode.

Would like to hear some others who play this game frequently please. So before these strange updates and how do you experience this now.

 

[interlog]

The only reason why someone isn't winning on a slot is because it isn't ready to pay out when that person is playing you have just been playing it when it isn't ready to pay out, The slot may not be a popular slot or it may not be as popular as it once was.

I know i have seen twitch streamers play this slot but they're only a tiny percentage of the people who play slots, Some people may have experienced what you have and gone never playing this slot again which may have lead to a decline in people playing it.

These are the only things i can say but with thousands of slots online there is going to be some slots that don't get played as much as other slots so it will take longer to see really nice wins from slots that just don't get played as much as others.

Online slots - allegedly - don't require "filling" before they pay out. You can get a 1,000x win on the very first spin after a slot has been released.

But I too have seen a difference in the game play of Fruitwarp as the OP commented. I am not the only one that has noticed this and I do believe that the variance of it has changed to make it less volatile. You get more 3 of a kind symbols in the base game than before with less well paying features.

 

[BeardyGuts]

the last time this thread came up i said i had good experience on it.... however i do agree that recently (past 2 weeks maybe) it has been brutal.

What i find odd is that you can tell what is coming up.... extra life with 1 spot to go to reach the end then all i have got is double binned....
In with >5 premium symbols = straight binned

I dont buy into rigged slots idea but whatever they have changed in the updates certainly appears to have affected the payout. I am one that will definitely be leaving this game alone for a while.

 

[AnnaTS]

Online slots - allegedly - don't require "filling" before they pay out. You can get a 1,000x win on the very first spin after a slot has been released.

But I too have seen a difference in the game play of Fruitwarp as the OP commented. I am not the only one that has noticed this and I do believe that the variance of it has changed to make it less volatile. You get more 3 of a kind symbols in the base game than before with less well paying features.

I didn't say the slot needs filling, You can get a huge win of a slot at release but if not many people play the slot after that huge win then it will take a while to see the next one, There is also nothing random about slots because you wouldn't be able to put a RTP on slots if they were random it just wouldn't reach it.

The Random number generator gives a false sense that slots are random and it's does create random numbers but what them random numbers represent isn't random that is all controlled by the slot chip.

Even a popular slot like Raging Rhino can be stone cold but you see good wins on that slot regularly because it's popular so it cycles through loads of spins.

 

[interlog]

I didn't say the slot needs filling, You can get a huge win of a slot at release but if not many people play the slot after that huge win then it will take a while to see the next one, There is also nothing random about slots because you wouldn't be able to put a RTP on slots if they were random it just wouldn't reach it.

The Random number generator gives a false sense that slots are random and it's does create random numbers but what them random numbers represent isn't random that is all controlled by the slot chip.

Even a popular slot like Raging Rhino can be stone cold but you see good wins on that slot regularly because it's popular so it cycles through loads of spins.

I suggest you read this topic: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/ask-me-anything-about-slots.77569/

 

[Playford7]

Online slots - allegedly - don't require "filling" before they pay out. You can get a 1,000x win on the very first spin after a slot has been released.

But I too have seen a difference in the game play of Fruitwarp as the OP commented. I am not the only one that has noticed this and I do believe that the variance of it has changed to make it less volatile. You get more 3 of a kind symbols in the base game than before with less well paying features.

Definitely changed. As said the 3 of a kind in base wins I think now takes away a better potential in the feature should you get it.
Not for a second do I think it's rigged, but it certainly has been tweaked since the update.
Never bother with it personally anymore, prefer a slot to look like a slot.

 

[AnnaTS]

I suggest you read this topic: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/ask-me-anything-about-slots.77569/

Random number generators are not totally random you can even google it.

 

[dutchyboy]

Hi guys, thanks for confirming what I already thought!
Unfortunately I guess there won't be a Thunderkick representative to explain this. In these situations would be very welcome.

For now I also leave Fruit warp! I feel the update has made it that this game potential is gone.
Bad move Thunderkick!

 

[lockinlove]

I actually find the returns on thunderkick slots to be absolutely brutal. Ive tried arcader alot and that one is just terrible. Takes forever to get the bonus and then almost impossible to get a good win on

But yeah fruit warp is ridiculous. Very very hard slot.

I think birds on a wire can be good ive had some good hits in battles on it but not really with real money.

I find them to be serious balance eaters though. One of the slot providers that gives out an incredible amount of dead spins.

I miss netent.

 

[Playford7]

New casino new deposit. Over 100 spins on this on a mere10p stake...2 teases no bonus. Another 100 on 50p stake zero teaser zero bonus...
Another!... 100 spins on £1 stake...1 tease no bonus. Tin foil hat firmly in place, this game was upgraded, ruined to the point of unplayable...
Silly x back base game wins, zero potential getting a tease win or bonus....bye the warp from me.
That's my test done and opinion learnt. What a joke these company's change is these games like this.
What's the matter?...do they play to well and give a ounce of fun to a player?...watch high rollers play it before, wasn't all roses. Watch now, what was a good game is dead. Absolute shame on the provider.
Almost makes me feel like packing in slotting, if it ain't the casino screwing you over idiotic terms it's a provider gimping a game so bad feels like the rhino that humps dunover has been on steroids and viagra.
Happier note, apart from that experience, Miami dice, are fine...no issues at all. Fab and upstanding casino.

 

[trancemonkey]

I didn't say the slot needs filling, You can get a huge win of a slot at release but if not many people play the slot after that huge win then it will take a while to see the next one, There is also nothing random about slots because you wouldn't be able to put a RTP on slots if they were random it just wouldn't reach it.

The Random number generator gives a false sense that slots are random and it's does create random numbers but what them random numbers represent isn't random that is all controlled by the slot chip.

Even a popular slot like Raging Rhino can be stone cold but you see good wins on that slot regularly because it's popular so it cycles through loads of spins.

Hey Anna

I'm afraid you couldn't be any more wrong about slots, RTP and random. Read the other thread I started which explains RTP, random and all the other conspiracy stuff you mention here.

If you don't want to, that's fine... I'll answer your post here tomorrow if you want...

It's actually quite funny that you say you can't put an RTP on a game if it's random. I've been making these for over ten years and I've managed it on every game I've made

 

[Playford7]

Hey Anna

I'm afraid you couldn't be any more wrong about slots, RTP and random. Read the other thread I started which explains RTP, random and all the other conspiracy stuff you mention here.

If you don't want to, that's fine... I'll answer your post here tomorrow if you want...

It's actually quite funny that you say you can't put an RTP on a game if it's random. I've been making these for over ten years and I've managed it on every game I've made

Any chance of hearing ur opinion on my experience this evening please?. Thanks. Regards .

 

[lotusch]

Youtube is full with monsterhits on Fruit Warp.
I.m.o one of the best Thunderkick games.

Haven't played it in a while so not sure whether they have "tampered" with the game play and lowered the big hits in the bonus.
I assume if the RTP % is still the same as in previous versions there should be no doubt about the fact it would still pay about the same.

I like the game and probably still give at a whirl from time to time but mostly when I am quite a lot up on my deposit as them money can go down south quickly on it.

 

[Playford7]

Youtube is full with monsterhits on Fruit Warp.
I.m.o one of the best Thunderkick games.

Haven't played it in a while so not sure whether they have "tampered" with the game play and lowered the big hits in the bonus.
I assume if the RTP % is still the same as in previous versions there should be no doubt about the fact it would still pay about the same.

I like the game and probably still give at a whirl from time to time but mostly when I am quite a lot up on my deposit as them money can go down south quickly on it.

I've never ever in my life moaned about a slot, but this has changed to the point of embarrassing. Seriously. Not just tonight's small loss, overall since the update. There's something 150% wrong. If at all possible I'd love to speak to a rep(granted won't happen) but I'd leave that game well alone.
It's not the same at all, why change a good thing?.. as said before loads lost big money before on it, why change it now?.

 

[trancemonkey]

Any chance of hearing ur opinion on my experience this evening please?. Thanks. Regards .

Difficult to say... again I'd be very surprised if the changed the maths of a successful game. I've never done it or heard of it being done unless there's an actual fault.

You won't believe me but I'd say it's luck (good or bad)... if you had played it tonight and won a lot more than usual, would you have said it was a maths change? Probably not... but when a bad run happens its a maths change?

I'm not saying categorically it isn't... but I very much doubt it.

 

[Playford7]

Difficult to say... again I'd be very surprised if the changed the maths of a successful game. I've never done it or heard of it being done unless there's an actual fault.

You won't believe me but I'd say it's luck (good or bad)... if you had played it tonight and won a lot more than usual, would you have said it was a maths change? Probably not... but when a bad run happens its a maths change?

I'm not saying categorically it isn't... but I very much doubt it.

This isn't down to perception. I accept and I read all you have posted and agree. But this is beyond the norm, in many updated slots I've played.
You hear the usual moaning about the html5 updates, anyone with a straight thinking mind knows it's not actually altering there winning chance. But seriously with this game, that blows all updates And the like out of the water. It's changed, and not just for me I'd say 100%...the base game is odd, the teases never land...and a feature hahaha what's one of those?.. look at the streamers, won loads lost loads, now...nobody can win. Not everyone can be wrong, that's stats and odds.
Not disregarding what you say for a moment, love you're actively here and addressing issues and giving your side.
This thought just doesn't feel nor sit right, not just with me...a lot of others also. Thanks again for taking your time to respond.

 

[BrianGhattas]

I've never done well with Fruit Warp. You are playing it in hopes of getting the big bonus. If you don't get it, Fruit Warp will eat your balance super fast.

I do like some of Thunderkick's games such as The Rift, Birds on a Wire and Børk the Berserker but they also have some frustrating and pointless slots such as Babushkas, Arcader and that one with the frogs and potions. Fruit Warp is their most brutal slot.

 

[trancemonkey]

This isn't down to perception. I accept and I read all you have posted and agree. But this is beyond the norm, in many updated slots I've played.
You hear the usual moaning about the html5 updates, anyone with a straight thinking mind knows it's not actually altering there winning chance. But seriously with this game, that blows all updates And the like out of the water. It's changed, and not just for me I'd say 100%...the base game is odd, the teases never land...and a feature hahaha what's one of those?.. look at the streamers, won loads lost loads, now...nobody can win. Not everyone can be wrong, that's stats and odds.
Not disregarding what you say for a moment, love you're actively here and addressing issues and giving your side.
This thought just doesn't feel nor sit right, not just with me...a lot of others also. Thanks again for taking your time to respond.

You know the game far better than I do mate.
. If you feel it's changed then I believe that you feel something has changed. All I'm saying is that unless they have changed the RTP or had max liability issues (although I would expect that to just mean a limited top stake) I wouldn't expect them to change the game.

Doesn't mean they haven't of course

 

[Playford7]

I've never done well with Fruit Warp. You are playing it in hopes of getting the big bonus. If you don't get it, Fruit Warp will eat your balance super fast.

I do like some of Thunderkick's games such as The Rift, Birds on a Wire and Børk the Berserker but they also have some frustrating and pointless slots such as Babushkas, Arcader and that one with the frogs and potions. Fruit Warp is their most brutal slot.

I like some of the games also. But this has not really contributed to how the game 'fruit warp' has changed beyond belief.
It's not about the big wins, I never said that.
It's about the base game play,the teases and the bonus should you get it now.
Since the update it's gone to bat shit.

 

[Playford7]

You know the game far better than I do mate.
. If you feel it's changed then I believe that you feel something has changed. All I'm saying is that unless they have changed the RTP or had max liability issues (although I would expect that to just mean a limited top stake) I wouldn't expect them to change the game.

Doesn't mean they haven't of course

Cheers for the answer as vague as it was. It's clearly been changed. No huge issue to me,I'll just never play it nor any of there games again, even though some I like.
Just find it a poor tactic. As you have previously said you guys always have the edge anyway...why change it to even more of a edge?..
And of course people change things...it's human nature, good or bad.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[trancemonkey]

Cheers for the answer as vague as it was. It's clearly been changed. No huge issue to me,I'll just never play it nor any of there games again, even though some I like.
Just find it a poor tactic. As you have previously said you guys always have the edge anyway...why change it to even more of a edge?..
And of course people change things...it's human nature, good or bad.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

The casino may have requested a lower RTP version. Has the RTP changed at all in the help pages?

 

[Playford7]

The casino may have requested a lower RTP version. Has the RTP changed at all in the help pages?

Cheers. It clearly has changed. With all the foil hats in all the world (including dunovers) this can't be disputed. I'll never ever after tonight play one of there games again.

 

[dunover]

They've brought out Well of Wonders now, the same sort of game (Smell of Blunders) so you'll have to get your fix on that, and it's even worse.

 

[SPOPPLE]

Fruit warp has always been utter shit, I played it for the first time in ages the other week, VERY FIRST SPIN....400x. Thats literally the ceiling for wins from what I have seen from others, seems very hard to get over that...thats not that big of a win....especially when I lost it all without getting another feature.

 

[AnnaTS]

Hey Anna

I'm afraid you couldn't be any more wrong about slots, RTP and random. Read the other thread I started which explains RTP, random and all the other conspiracy stuff you mention here.

If you don't want to, that's fine... I'll answer your post here tomorrow if you want...

It's actually quite funny that you say you can't put an RTP on a game if it's random. I've been making these for over ten years and I've managed it on every game I've made

A computer can't generate true random numbers you can google it because it's called pseudo-random, so whatever you have been telling people is probably not true because a computer can only do what it's programmed to do, So the same goes for online slots.

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[TheAddict]

Jono did state in a previous thread that some casinos are playing a slightly lowered rtp version. Though i think between 0.02-0.05% decrease, so shouldnt have a huge impact. Still enough for me to not try the game and get addicted to it despite being tempted after viewing some of rockybalboarolla's streaming sessions

 

[trancemonkey]

A computer can't generate true random numbers you can google it because it's called pseudo-random, so whatever you have been telling people is probably not true because a computer can only do what it's programmed to do, So the same goes for online slots.

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Anna

We use the Mersenne-Twister RNG. Yes admittedly it is pseudo-random, but it is industry standard. It passes all the tests an RNG needs to pass in order to show that there are no patterns, it is not predictable and it is as close to truly random as you can get (as long as you constantly poll the RNG). We poll every frame as due to the inherent changes in frame rate, it means that the polling time is also of an unknown value.

So yes you're right that the RNG we use is not "truly" random... but you are totally and utterly wrong on everything else you say.

And no, I don't lie....

 

[AnnaTS]

Anna

We use the Mersenne-Twister RNG. Yes admittedly it is pseudo-random, but it is industry standard. It passes all the tests an RNG needs to pass in order to show that there are no patterns, it is not predictable and it is as close to truly random as you can get (as long as you constantly poll the RNG). We poll every frame as due to the inherent changes in frame rate, it means that the polling time is also of an unknown value.

So yes you're right that the RNG we use is not "truly" random... but you are totally and utterly wrong on everything else you say.

And no, I don't lie....

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

Ahh yeah the famous Novomatic case...
You're right about that. They were able to basically hack the Novomatic RNG. They would upload video of about 20 spins to someone who would then use that video to try and work out what the spins would be.

This was a fault with the implementation of the RNG. It shouldn't be possible. They got a lot of shit for that from the regulators.

To your second point... you've said this before and you're wrong. Totally wrong.
Don't get confused between randomly determined and a random outcome.

I gave this example in the other thread...

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

And Anna, without trying to sound big headed, I've been programming slots for 20 years and a producer for the last 10 of those (admittedly with limited programming in that time)... so with all due respect please don't tell me slots aren't random or we can't put an RTP on a random game. I do it every day. I'm doing it at the same time as writing these posts.

If you think anything else you are greatly misunderstanding what we do. Feel free to ask me anything you want though if you want further explanation but please stop spouting rubbish about slots design when you don't really understand what you're talking about

 

[AnnaTS]

Ahh yeah the famous Novomatic case...
You're right about that. They were able to basically hack the Novomatic RNG. They would upload video of about 20 spins to someone who would then use that video to try and work out what the spins would be.

This was a fault with the implementation of the RNG. It shouldn't be possible. They got a lot of shit for that from the regulators.

To your second point... you've said this before and you're wrong. Totally wrong.
Don't get confused between randomly determined and a random outcome.

I gave this example in the other thread...

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

I knew this and it shows that slots aren't random because if they were random you would have the same chance on every spin but the slot changes the chances of you hitting wins and that's how it's able to reach it's RTP because it's controlled and not really random in the way people think.

 

[trancemonkey]

I knew this and it shows that slots aren't random because if they were random you would have the same chance on every spin but the slot changes the chances of you hitting wins and that's how it's able to reach it's RTP because it's controlled and not really random in the way people think.

No we don't.. you have the same chance of hitting every win on every spin. That's written in every single jurisdictional regulations I have ever seen... the only time this is allowed to change is with progressives/jackpots where we can scale the chance of winning one linearly with your bet size. If you didn't have the same chance every spin, that would be compensated gaming and you can only have that in the UK (in Cat C, D, B4 and B3 games) and in some other markets like Spains Street market.

You just don't understand slots at all... that last post proves it. We don't change the bag of balls every spin... the bag remains constant.

Either start believing people that actually do this for a living, or keep your tin foil hat on...

 

[AnnaTS]

No we don't.. you a have the same chance of hitting every win on every spin. That's written in every single jurisdictional regulations I have ever seen... the only time this is allowed to change is with progressives/jackpots where we can scale the chance of winning one linearly with your bet size.

You just don't understand slots at all... that last post proves it.

Either start believing people that actually do this for a living, or keep your tin foil hat on...

You even say it in your explanation that the chances have changed but apparently i have it wrong even though we have said the same thing.

This your explaination if you read it again you even say and it's obviously that both bags give a different chances, So how can it be the same if it's different in your explanation ?

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

 

[trancemonkey]

You even say it in your explanation that the chances have changed but apparently i have it wrong even though we have said the same thing.

This your explaination if you read it again you even say and it's obviously that both bags give a different chances, So how can it be the same if it's different in your explanation ?

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

OK, you've misunderstood my explanation. My example was just to show you that if I give you a bag of 12 balls, theee of which are the number 3, that if you pick it blindfolded the outcome is random. The reason i used the bag of 10 balls before that is just to show that both picks are random. Once we have designed the bag (the outcomes), it never changes once the game is done. The bag is constant.

A slot game basically consists of millions (or in many cases a lot more) of different outcomes. When you press start we get one of those outcomes - it is VERY important to remember at this point that not every although there might be billions of different outcomes to choose from, not every outcome gives a different prize. And this is what we mean by random. Every outcome is possible, every outcome is available on every spin, but not every outcome has the same chance of happening.

Does that make sense now?

 

[TheAddict]

It does give you the same chance each spin though, it doesnt change the chances. Just as TM said with the ballbag theory :Angel: it is weighted in favour of the smaller winning balls (prizes) by having more available of them in the bag than any of the higher prizes (dependant on set variance i spose). it will obviously include many 0 win losing balls, many average balls and a rare few gems. Just like u could Put 999 naked dudes in a line with me and you have 1/1000 chance of pointing at me thus a random chance of pointing out the biggest of all the balls availabe infront of you, if your eyes are closed, and an rather unforgettably ugly site if they were not.
The chances arent changed dependant on its current trtp, or any other reason. Just like those criminal (random versions, not compensated obviously) fixed odds betting terminal slots that can be found in the bookies. the chances are already set.

 

[trancemonkey]

It does give you the same chance each spin though, it doesnt change the chances. Just as TM said with the ballbag theory :Angel: it is weighted in favour of the smaller winning balls (prizes) by having more available of them in the bag than any of the higher prizes (dependant on set variance i spose). it will obviously include many 0 win losing balls, many average balls and a rare few gems. Just like u could Put 999 naked dudes in a line with me and you have 1/1000 chance of pointing at me thus a random chance of pointing out the biggest of all the balls availabe infront of you, if your eyes are closed, and an rather unforgettably ugly site if they were not.
The chances arent changed dependant on its current trtp, or any other reason. Just like those criminal (random versions, not compensated obviously) fixed odds betting terminal slots that can be found in the bookies. the chances are already set.

Exactly... And yeah I hate FOBTs too... Although they make a lot of money for my industry....

 

[AnnaTS]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

With all due respect, you are an idiot. Slots are random. I've explained why - i do this for a living. It's my job. Do i tell you your job is rubbish? Or that what you're doing is a lie? No... So stop telling me mine is. People don't need to google anything because I do this every day, and have done for 20 years. I've explained random slots. You choose to ignore the explanation - that's up to you.

Yes, if you knew the seed AND the update interval, you could predict the sequence - you're right. That's why Novo got in the shit - they weren't polling the RNG in a way that would make predicting the sequence impossible. I explained this earlier and you've chosen to ignore this as well.

And if common sense can tell you that you can't put an RTP which is random, then my job is flying completely in the face of common sense, because i manage to do it. Even though i've explained how a random outcome can be used to make a game and give an RTP.

Until you use common sense to realise what you're saying is utter rubbish, please stop spouting absolute crap. Believe what you want, but don't tell me i'm lying when i do this every working day of my life....

 

[lotusch]

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

I find this a very interesting read as I have "heard" some rumours about this before.
Supposedly some Russian group of players had reaped huge cashouts from Novoslots, Book of Ra and LLC in particular as they had a way to predict when the Free Spins would trigger and up the bet to MAX BET for these slots which is something like €50.00 a spin?
Of course there is no guarantee of a big x stake win but if you can play low bets and only increase when FS are about to pop then you have gold in your hands.

And I was thinking for a time that especially LLC had a tell so you could nearly predict the 3 scatters were about to pop in.
It would give tons of 2 scatters in a very short timespan of spins and nearly always shortly after it would pop the 3th scatter.
Never thought anything of it but one wonders.

So interesting AnnaTS and keeps you thinking indeed!


@Trancemonkey - I already see you have replied to that post! Great stuff!

 

[syntynyt]

To make some light on Novomatic case, as i was one to experience the exploit live, and was different from the other cheats that affected lucky lady and book of ra or the one selling a chip which would replace another from inside that would trigger maximum wins by pressing a sequence of buttons.
There was a russian site x-gaminator selling the cheat for $2000 that would work at a machine only. You were required to send the firmware ID which can be seen during machine restart(pulling out and back in the power cable). The cheat consisted of knowing beforehand the cards in gambling feature and worked only in Burning Target(clone of Beetlemania) in Admiral machines and Columbus in all variants. The cheater looked in the phone for card sequences then waited for big risks to gamble. Now in all cafe bars all machines are modified to accept a maximum 3 cards in gambling feature and culprit games are pulled since 2014, the machines are still popular because of jewels4all and treasure jewels games that as deluxe versions are awful in triggering the wilds and chest. I can remember that on the site was written how each game of each machine had a 600+ fixed cards that kept repeating in the same order in the culprit games, while in the same machine but different game the cards were random. Is a long story how i found out when the thing was about to finish, how i shoot myself in the foot for missing the opportunity and how disgusted im still is at Novomatic for giving the tools for the machine owners to screw the players with a vast control panel of percentages. All are reseted every day so winning big means following those that seed them by losing fortunes then play after them with mid bets.

What i wonder nowadays is why landbased Fairy Queen give 11 free spins while online version 10

 

[quber]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

Anna,

Instead of the bag of balls explanation think of how roulette works:-

the RTP of single zero roulette is 97.3%, this is on a physical roulette wheel where each number has the same chance of coming out every spin, there is no software RNG controlling this just the maths of the game.

This is the same with slots, the maths of the paytable dictate the RTP, if you add a symbol to a reel the RTP changes, if you remove a symbol from a reel the RTP changes, these changes happen without changing the RNG so the RNG is not controlling the RTP.

 

[TheAddict]

Unless the rng on the chosen roulette table happens to be named jono777.exe

 

[dunover]

What a load of balls this has turned into!

OK, what nobody has mentioned here, and it would be easy to facilitate and near-impossible to prove:

1. Ramping up your stake changes the 'balls' so there are fewer large values or very large value results removed. (I don't believe that at all but it's a common accusation).

2. The big ball bag D) has tens of thousands in it as we know for the large number of possible outcomes on the reels - so your RNG picks the 1000x stake ball out; how do we know if it's put straight back in again afterwards (equal chance of successive identical outcomes we're told!) OR not at all OR very much later when the game has 'retaken' all or most of the spike in your RTP after the big win?

Please don't tell me this is impossible - in coding terms it only needs a few 'ifs' and value strikes.

 

[aceking123]

What a load of balls this has turned into!

OK, what nobody has mentioned here, and it would be easy to facilitate and near-impossible to prove:

1. Ramping up your stake changes the 'balls' so there are fewer large values or very large value results removed. (I don't believe that at all but it's a common accusation).

2. The big ball bag D) has tens of thousands in it as we know for the large number of possible outcomes on the reels - so your RNG picks the 1000x stake ball out; how do we know if it's put straight back in again afterwards (equal chance of successive identical outcomes we're told!) OR not at all OR very much later when the game has 'retaken' all or most of the spike in your RTP after the big win?

Please don't tell me this is impossible - in coding terms it only needs a few 'ifs' and value strikes.

Why you have big balls stating that

 

[Jono777]

Personally I've now decided that the whole scenario is a load of old balls and every slot is a glorified, re-vamped 1970's Fruit Machine.

Just forget all new releases, all providers and make every game Electrocoins "Bar-X"

Geez, they'll be surplus stocks of foil everywhere!

 

[xxshepxx]

The recent update to fruit warp has 100% changed the way it plays.

I dont need anyone explaining to me that it hasnt. Im just stating that in my experience it has...

What am I basing this on? Playing it everyday for the past 3 weeks. No slot nosedives that much without someone fiddling it.

It will get updated again and become bearable again, but for me, for now, its a no go.

Oh and I dont need anyone telling me Im spouting rubbish and it cant be changed etc etc etc...I wasnt born yesterday.

 

[maxd]

With all due respect, you are an idiot. ....

With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. There's no reason to talk to your fellow forum members with that kind of disrespect. If you can't make your point without the abuse then your point isn't worth making, at least not as far as we are concerned.

That infraction you've just received is a reminder that such will not be tolerated here.

 

[dutchyboy]

The recent update to fruit warp has 100% changed the way it plays.

I dont need anyone explaining to me that it hasnt. Im just stating that in my experience it has...

What am I basing this on? Playing it everyday for the past 3 weeks. No slot nosedives that much without someone fiddling it.

It will get updated again and become bearable again, but for me, for now, its a no go.

Oh and I dont need anyone telling me Im spouting rubbish and it cant be changed etc etc etc...I wasnt born yesterday.

I experience the EXACT thing.

Let's hope Thunderkick reads this thread... however don't expect a rep of them to comment on this....

 

[trancemonkey]

With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. There's no reason to talk to your fellow forum members with that kind of disrespect. If you can't make your point without the abuse then your point isn't worth making, at least not as far as we are concerned.

That infraction you've just received is a reminder that such will not be tolerated here.

My sincere apologies to AnnaTS and the forum in general. I said it out of frustration but that is no defence. It won't happen again.