WT.... has happened to Fruit Warp?!

[SPOPPLE]

Fruit warp has always been utter shit, I played it for the first time in ages the other week, VERY FIRST SPIN....400x. Thats literally the ceiling for wins from what I have seen from others, seems very hard to get over that...thats not that big of a win....especially when I lost it all without getting another feature.

 

[AnnaTS]

Hey Anna

I'm afraid you couldn't be any more wrong about slots, RTP and random. Read the other thread I started which explains RTP, random and all the other conspiracy stuff you mention here.

If you don't want to, that's fine... I'll answer your post here tomorrow if you want...

It's actually quite funny that you say you can't put an RTP on a game if it's random. I've been making these for over ten years and I've managed it on every game I've made

A computer can't generate true random numbers you can google it because it's called pseudo-random, so whatever you have been telling people is probably not true because a computer can only do what it's programmed to do, So the same goes for online slots.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[TheAddict]

Jono did state in a previous thread that some casinos are playing a slightly lowered rtp version. Though i think between 0.02-0.05% decrease, so shouldnt have a huge impact. Still enough for me to not try the game and get addicted to it despite being tempted after viewing some of rockybalboarolla's streaming sessions

 

[trancemonkey]

A computer can't generate true random numbers you can google it because it's called pseudo-random, so whatever you have been telling people is probably not true because a computer can only do what it's programmed to do, So the same goes for online slots.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Anna

We use the Mersenne-Twister RNG. Yes admittedly it is pseudo-random, but it is industry standard. It passes all the tests an RNG needs to pass in order to show that there are no patterns, it is not predictable and it is as close to truly random as you can get (as long as you constantly poll the RNG). We poll every frame as due to the inherent changes in frame rate, it means that the polling time is also of an unknown value.

So yes you're right that the RNG we use is not "truly" random... but you are totally and utterly wrong on everything else you say.

And no, I don't lie....

 

[AnnaTS]

Anna

We use the Mersenne-Twister RNG. Yes admittedly it is pseudo-random, but it is industry standard. It passes all the tests an RNG needs to pass in order to show that there are no patterns, it is not predictable and it is as close to truly random as you can get (as long as you constantly poll the RNG). We poll every frame as due to the inherent changes in frame rate, it means that the polling time is also of an unknown value.

So yes you're right that the RNG we use is not "truly" random... but you are totally and utterly wrong on everything else you say.

And no, I don't lie....

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

Ahh yeah the famous Novomatic case...
You're right about that. They were able to basically hack the Novomatic RNG. They would upload video of about 20 spins to someone who would then use that video to try and work out what the spins would be.

This was a fault with the implementation of the RNG. It shouldn't be possible. They got a lot of shit for that from the regulators.

To your second point... you've said this before and you're wrong. Totally wrong.
Don't get confused between randomly determined and a random outcome.

I gave this example in the other thread...

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

And Anna, without trying to sound big headed, I've been programming slots for 20 years and a producer for the last 10 of those (admittedly with limited programming in that time)... so with all due respect please don't tell me slots aren't random or we can't put an RTP on a random game. I do it every day. I'm doing it at the same time as writing these posts.

If you think anything else you are greatly misunderstanding what we do. Feel free to ask me anything you want though if you want further explanation but please stop spouting rubbish about slots design when you don't really understand what you're talking about

 

[AnnaTS]

Ahh yeah the famous Novomatic case...
You're right about that. They were able to basically hack the Novomatic RNG. They would upload video of about 20 spins to someone who would then use that video to try and work out what the spins would be.

This was a fault with the implementation of the RNG. It shouldn't be possible. They got a lot of shit for that from the regulators.

To your second point... you've said this before and you're wrong. Totally wrong.
Don't get confused between randomly determined and a random outcome.

I gave this example in the other thread...

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

I knew this and it shows that slots aren't random because if they were random you would have the same chance on every spin but the slot changes the chances of you hitting wins and that's how it's able to reach it's RTP because it's controlled and not really random in the way people think.

 

[trancemonkey]

I knew this and it shows that slots aren't random because if they were random you would have the same chance on every spin but the slot changes the chances of you hitting wins and that's how it's able to reach it's RTP because it's controlled and not really random in the way people think.

No we don't.. you have the same chance of hitting every win on every spin. That's written in every single jurisdictional regulations I have ever seen... the only time this is allowed to change is with progressives/jackpots where we can scale the chance of winning one linearly with your bet size. If you didn't have the same chance every spin, that would be compensated gaming and you can only have that in the UK (in Cat C, D, B4 and B3 games) and in some other markets like Spains Street market.

You just don't understand slots at all... that last post proves it. We don't change the bag of balls every spin... the bag remains constant.

Either start believing people that actually do this for a living, or keep your tin foil hat on...

 

[AnnaTS]

No we don't.. you a have the same chance of hitting every win on every spin. That's written in every single jurisdictional regulations I have ever seen... the only time this is allowed to change is with progressives/jackpots where we can scale the chance of winning one linearly with your bet size.

You just don't understand slots at all... that last post proves it.

Either start believing people that actually do this for a living, or keep your tin foil hat on...

You even say it in your explanation that the chances have changed but apparently i have it wrong even though we have said the same thing.

This your explaination if you read it again you even say and it's obviously that both bags give a different chances, So how can it be the same if it's different in your explanation ?

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

 

[trancemonkey]

You even say it in your explanation that the chances have changed but apparently i have it wrong even though we have said the same thing.

This your explaination if you read it again you even say and it's obviously that both bags give a different chances, So how can it be the same if it's different in your explanation ?

I give you a bag with 10 balls in it numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and ask you to pick a ball. Each ball has the same chance of being picked. It's a random determination.
Now I give you bag with 12 balls in it. 1 to 10 and two extra balls with the number 3 on it. Again you pick blindfolded. The outcome is still random but the chance of a 3 being picked is much higher than the other numbers. This is how slots work. They are random. The outcomes are randomly determined.

OK, you've misunderstood my explanation. My example was just to show you that if I give you a bag of 12 balls, theee of which are the number 3, that if you pick it blindfolded the outcome is random. The reason i used the bag of 10 balls before that is just to show that both picks are random. Once we have designed the bag (the outcomes), it never changes once the game is done. The bag is constant.

A slot game basically consists of millions (or in many cases a lot more) of different outcomes. When you press start we get one of those outcomes - it is VERY important to remember at this point that not every although there might be billions of different outcomes to choose from, not every outcome gives a different prize. And this is what we mean by random. Every outcome is possible, every outcome is available on every spin, but not every outcome has the same chance of happening.

Does that make sense now?

 

[TheAddict]

It does give you the same chance each spin though, it doesnt change the chances. Just as TM said with the ballbag theory :Angel: it is weighted in favour of the smaller winning balls (prizes) by having more available of them in the bag than any of the higher prizes (dependant on set variance i spose). it will obviously include many 0 win losing balls, many average balls and a rare few gems. Just like u could Put 999 naked dudes in a line with me and you have 1/1000 chance of pointing at me thus a random chance of pointing out the biggest of all the balls availabe infront of you, if your eyes are closed, and an rather unforgettably ugly site if they were not.
The chances arent changed dependant on its current trtp, or any other reason. Just like those criminal (random versions, not compensated obviously) fixed odds betting terminal slots that can be found in the bookies. the chances are already set.

 

[trancemonkey]

It does give you the same chance each spin though, it doesnt change the chances. Just as TM said with the ballbag theory :Angel: it is weighted in favour of the smaller winning balls (prizes) by having more available of them in the bag than any of the higher prizes (dependant on set variance i spose). it will obviously include many 0 win losing balls, many average balls and a rare few gems. Just like u could Put 999 naked dudes in a line with me and you have 1/1000 chance of pointing at me thus a random chance of pointing out the biggest of all the balls availabe infront of you, if your eyes are closed, and an rather unforgettably ugly site if they were not.
The chances arent changed dependant on its current trtp, or any other reason. Just like those criminal (random versions, not compensated obviously) fixed odds betting terminal slots that can be found in the bookies. the chances are already set.

Exactly... And yeah I hate FOBTs too... Although they make a lot of money for my industry....

 

[AnnaTS]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

With all due respect, you are an idiot. Slots are random. I've explained why - i do this for a living. It's my job. Do i tell you your job is rubbish? Or that what you're doing is a lie? No... So stop telling me mine is. People don't need to google anything because I do this every day, and have done for 20 years. I've explained random slots. You choose to ignore the explanation - that's up to you.

Yes, if you knew the seed AND the update interval, you could predict the sequence - you're right. That's why Novo got in the shit - they weren't polling the RNG in a way that would make predicting the sequence impossible. I explained this earlier and you've chosen to ignore this as well.

And if common sense can tell you that you can't put an RTP which is random, then my job is flying completely in the face of common sense, because i manage to do it. Even though i've explained how a random outcome can be used to make a game and give an RTP.

Until you use common sense to realise what you're saying is utter rubbish, please stop spouting absolute crap. Believe what you want, but don't tell me i'm lying when i do this every working day of my life....

 

[lotusch]

Well here is something from a news artcile, Why would Novomatic think someone had found a pattern if there is no pattern to find ?

By early 2011, casinos throughout central and eastern Europe were logging incidents in which slots made by the Austrian company Novomatic paid out improbably large sums. Novomatic’s engineers could find no evidence that the machines in question had been tampered with, leading them to theorize that the cheaters had figured out how to predict the slots’ behavior. “Through targeted and prolonged observation of the individual game sequences as well as possibly recording individual games, it might be possible to allegedly identify a kind of ‘pattern’ in the game results,” the company admitted in a February 2011 notice to its customers.

That was taken from this article www.wired.com

You can't put an RTP on a slot if it's truly random it just wouldn't reach the set RTP or it may even go over something that is controlled isn't truly random.

Plus each random number does represent a symbol so i'm not entirely sure what i got wrong and it's all controlled by the programming if there was no prgramming well it just wouldn't do anything.

I find this a very interesting read as I have "heard" some rumours about this before.
Supposedly some Russian group of players had reaped huge cashouts from Novoslots, Book of Ra and LLC in particular as they had a way to predict when the Free Spins would trigger and up the bet to MAX BET for these slots which is something like €50.00 a spin?
Of course there is no guarantee of a big x stake win but if you can play low bets and only increase when FS are about to pop then you have gold in your hands.

And I was thinking for a time that especially LLC had a tell so you could nearly predict the 3 scatters were about to pop in.
It would give tons of 2 scatters in a very short timespan of spins and nearly always shortly after it would pop the 3th scatter.
Never thought anything of it but one wonders.

So interesting AnnaTS and keeps you thinking indeed!


@Trancemonkey - I already see you have replied to that post! Great stuff!

 

[syntynyt]

To make some light on Novomatic case, as i was one to experience the exploit live, and was different from the other cheats that affected lucky lady and book of ra or the one selling a chip which would replace another from inside that would trigger maximum wins by pressing a sequence of buttons.
There was a russian site x-gaminator selling the cheat for $2000 that would work at a machine only. You were required to send the firmware ID which can be seen during machine restart(pulling out and back in the power cable). The cheat consisted of knowing beforehand the cards in gambling feature and worked only in Burning Target(clone of Beetlemania) in Admiral machines and Columbus in all variants. The cheater looked in the phone for card sequences then waited for big risks to gamble. Now in all cafe bars all machines are modified to accept a maximum 3 cards in gambling feature and culprit games are pulled since 2014, the machines are still popular because of jewels4all and treasure jewels games that as deluxe versions are awful in triggering the wilds and chest. I can remember that on the site was written how each game of each machine had a 600+ fixed cards that kept repeating in the same order in the culprit games, while in the same machine but different game the cards were random. Is a long story how i found out when the thing was about to finish, how i shoot myself in the foot for missing the opportunity and how disgusted im still is at Novomatic for giving the tools for the machine owners to screw the players with a vast control panel of percentages. All are reseted every day so winning big means following those that seed them by losing fortunes then play after them with mid bets.

What i wonder nowadays is why landbased Fairy Queen give 11 free spins while online version 10

 

[quber]

Well i have already posted why slots aren't random even though you say they are but using pseudorandom contradicts what random is and if you knew the seed and the algorithm you would be able to predict the sequence.

I don't have any else to say but if people want to know more than can just goggle this stuff it's not hard to find, Just using common sense will tell you that you can't put an RTP on a slot which is random without the win ouput being controlled in some way, It either wouldn't reach the RTP or it would go over it.

That would like be saying this is random but we predict that it will do this percentage because without controlling the win output that is what you're doing you would predicting a RTP not saying this is the RTP.

Anna,

Instead of the bag of balls explanation think of how roulette works:-

the RTP of single zero roulette is 97.3%, this is on a physical roulette wheel where each number has the same chance of coming out every spin, there is no software RNG controlling this just the maths of the game.

This is the same with slots, the maths of the paytable dictate the RTP, if you add a symbol to a reel the RTP changes, if you remove a symbol from a reel the RTP changes, these changes happen without changing the RNG so the RNG is not controlling the RTP.

 

[TheAddict]

Unless the rng on the chosen roulette table happens to be named jono777.exe

 

[dunover]

What a load of balls this has turned into!

OK, what nobody has mentioned here, and it would be easy to facilitate and near-impossible to prove:

1. Ramping up your stake changes the 'balls' so there are fewer large values or very large value results removed. (I don't believe that at all but it's a common accusation).

2. The big ball bag D) has tens of thousands in it as we know for the large number of possible outcomes on the reels - so your RNG picks the 1000x stake ball out; how do we know if it's put straight back in again afterwards (equal chance of successive identical outcomes we're told!) OR not at all OR very much later when the game has 'retaken' all or most of the spike in your RTP after the big win?

Please don't tell me this is impossible - in coding terms it only needs a few 'ifs' and value strikes.

 

[aceking123]

What a load of balls this has turned into!

OK, what nobody has mentioned here, and it would be easy to facilitate and near-impossible to prove:

1. Ramping up your stake changes the 'balls' so there are fewer large values or very large value results removed. (I don't believe that at all but it's a common accusation).

2. The big ball bag D) has tens of thousands in it as we know for the large number of possible outcomes on the reels - so your RNG picks the 1000x stake ball out; how do we know if it's put straight back in again afterwards (equal chance of successive identical outcomes we're told!) OR not at all OR very much later when the game has 'retaken' all or most of the spike in your RTP after the big win?

Please don't tell me this is impossible - in coding terms it only needs a few 'ifs' and value strikes.

Why you have big balls stating that

 

[Jono777]

Personally I've now decided that the whole scenario is a load of old balls and every slot is a glorified, re-vamped 1970's Fruit Machine.

Just forget all new releases, all providers and make every game Electrocoins "Bar-X"

Geez, they'll be surplus stocks of foil everywhere!

 

[xxshepxx]

The recent update to fruit warp has 100% changed the way it plays.

I dont need anyone explaining to me that it hasnt. Im just stating that in my experience it has...

What am I basing this on? Playing it everyday for the past 3 weeks. No slot nosedives that much without someone fiddling it.

It will get updated again and become bearable again, but for me, for now, its a no go.

Oh and I dont need anyone telling me Im spouting rubbish and it cant be changed etc etc etc...I wasnt born yesterday.

 

[maxd]

With all due respect, you are an idiot. ....

With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. There's no reason to talk to your fellow forum members with that kind of disrespect. If you can't make your point without the abuse then your point isn't worth making, at least not as far as we are concerned.

That infraction you've just received is a reminder that such will not be tolerated here.

 

[dutchyboy]

The recent update to fruit warp has 100% changed the way it plays.

I dont need anyone explaining to me that it hasnt. Im just stating that in my experience it has...

What am I basing this on? Playing it everyday for the past 3 weeks. No slot nosedives that much without someone fiddling it.

It will get updated again and become bearable again, but for me, for now, its a no go.

Oh and I dont need anyone telling me Im spouting rubbish and it cant be changed etc etc etc...I wasnt born yesterday.

I experience the EXACT thing.

Let's hope Thunderkick reads this thread... however don't expect a rep of them to comment on this....

 

[trancemonkey]

With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. There's no reason to talk to your fellow forum members with that kind of disrespect. If you can't make your point without the abuse then your point isn't worth making, at least not as far as we are concerned.

That infraction you've just received is a reminder that such will not be tolerated here.

My sincere apologies to AnnaTS and the forum in general. I said it out of frustration but that is no defence. It won't happen again.