Were they right to do so?

So what do you recomend I should do "happygobrokey", or others?

My gut feeling is that it shouldnt matter what currency I signed up in, as I stated, all currencies they accepted was foreign to me. And I was allowed to register in pounds, even when I didn't live in Britain. If I remember correctly I won something like 1-200 pounds aswell. I feel that since they accepted my bet, they should pay me what they owe. At the very least they should pay back my deposit, what hassle is it for them to do that?
 
Unless I read it wrong, Gaahl, it looked like they were saying in the old email that you spent the money
we cannot refund your purchase
because it was played in the casino
but I could have put my brain on sideways today :D I guess they could be saying, 'It's okay to mess up a deposit then correct it, but if you play with any of that money we can steal it':confused:

I've tried to conform many of my opinions to those of the Host and Board for the most part so I can be most helpful here; and unless I'm stretching, I think that confiscating a deposit is considered Rogue except in cases of direct and deliberate fraud. (it's still wrong unless returned to the rightful owner). As you didn't attempt or even accidentally defraud the casino, t&c or more specifically, the fu clause, be damned - there's no reason you shouldn't be refunded.

A PM to the Rep here is better than an email to the casino. If you don't get satisfaction (I would be more than a little surprised) I would PaB on principles even if the money isn't much. It's the right thing to do and I'm sure Max can solve this quickly, even if it is only a statement from the casino and/or apology if too much time has passed.
 
i was speaking only in principle. as your situation happened so long ago, and as casinos reserve the right to do whatever they please, you may have no recourse. but in principle you should. it's gutless the things these casinos do.

good luck if you chase it. :thumbsup:
 
Hello Lojo!

What happened is that I registered, played, won, had money in account, then account got locked and winnings and deposit confiscated. Reason beeing because I played in pounds while living in Norway.



Edit. Do eCOGRA take cases this old?



For lojo:
We can't stop here, this is bat-country! :cool:
 
All this discussion leads to nowhere. Just get VegasvipLounge to answer in this thread. He was active here in the past and last visited the forum on 28 Dec.
 
Their policy is clear, and very evil.

If the player loses, they DON'T get their deposit back because their bets are accepted and settled as losers.

If the player WINS, however, the bets are VOIDED, and the player only receives back the deposit.

This is a diabolical situation, and is worse even than the one at Grand Mondial and white labels. For this admission in the original Email, this casino should be thrown back into the pit.

Any rule, even if evil, should at least apply irrespective of the outcome of the wagering, otherwise it is simple cheating, plain and simple.


The casino INDUSTRY is just that, INDUSTRY. They know full well that average people do NOT always read every single term and condition for all the software they download. They have been brought up to the belief that the Windows operating system can be learned "by the seat of your pants", just like flying old aircraft. This was the whole idea behind the development of Windows in the early guises, such that computer users no longer needed a university degree to operate software.
Users expect that software should work in the same manner, if a drop down menu offers a choice, a user should expect that it is a valid one for him to select.

Actually, casinos are lying about Microgaming software not being able to delist invalid currencies. There are some casinos that do not support all the valid currencies that Microgaming offer, and when registering at these casinos, the unsupported currencies do NOT appear in the drop-down list, so the software can already be configured to suppress invalid choices.

Further, after registering, the software immediately tries to get you to deposit right away. If the operators know that it takes a while for background checks to take place, this should NOT happen, the software should NOT take players straight to the deposit pages, but encourage them to wait for the welcome E-mail. This can be set to arrive when the checks are made. The software could even be made to require an activation code before real money can be deposited, which would come in this welcome Email.
If this simple procedure were implemented, then such mistakes from either not properly reading all the rules, or misunderstanding them, will not happen, as the welcome Email will then inform the player that their registration is invalid, and they cannot play. In order to bypass this, the player would have do deliberately break the terms on giving correct details, so players found out after the fact are more likely to be the fraudsters.

It is truly shocking to see this happening with Microgaming casinos, sometimes it makes me feel that perhaps the rogues like virtual are not all that different in the way they seem to make up trap clauses to deny payments to players, and that play at these rogues would be no more dangerous than playing at, say, Grand Hotel without having a lawyer go over the rules with you.

When this group were hit by FRAUDSTERS, they, at least, got their deposits back, and many players also got paid winnings after pressure from the player community. This seems one that slipped through the net, and since no fuss was made, they thought they could get away with not honouring the deal they thrashed out with eCogra and Casinomeister members at the time. It was suggested that they ONLY negotiated because of the public fuss, and had there been no public discussion of the event, they would have kept a considerable number of players winnings and initial deposits for themselves, and we would have been none the wiser.

With the holidays now behind us, I would expect the official view to appear from the rep. It will be a simple matter to check back to the old thread for inconsistencies in replies then, and now to this thread, about what should happen.
 
Thanx for the reply vinylweatherman!

However:
If the player WINS, however, the bets are VOIDED, and the player only receives back the deposit.

I won, but i had the win AND deposit confiscated. Beeing because I played in pounds, and not my native currency (which they do not offer). I contacted them first on mail (mail is posted in this thread) and later I called them on the phone.

I did not receive my winnings, nor did I receive my deposit back.

They refered me to the T&C which states that if you play in wrong currency, " Casino cannot be held responsible for any action taken afterwards."

It this case, that meant confiscating win and deposit.

I have sent their support an email explaning the situation, (I got hold of my account number with the method described in this thread, thanx for that tip!) I have also sent the rep a PM, I havent heard anything from the casino yet.


If all foreign currencies were bad for me to play in, why did they even let me register and deposit :confused:

On a sidenote, 32RED has accepted a total deposit of me for a total av GB 3,368.00 POUNDS, I guess they are glad they didnt close my account...
 
If all foreign currencies were bad for me to play in, why did they even let me register and deposit :confused:
Very simply...."HEADS THEY WIN,TAILS YOU LOSE".....sad but true and just plain wrong and how T&C's are written (see FU clauses) but we continue to play!:)
 
Very simply...."HEADS THEY WIN,TAILS YOU LOSE".....sad but true and just plain wrong and how T&C's are written (see FU clauses) but we continue to play!:)

We continue to play because the rogues ride on the reputation of the good casinos. Since this was a Microgaming casino, they had benefited from the Microgaming reputation.

This kind of screwing over of players only makes the fraud seem more socially acceptable, just as people do not shed a tear if some pervert gets their just deserts while in prison, but are horrified when a dear old granny gets robbed of a few pence. Businesses in general have had this attitude that we mere people are there for the harvesting, by fair means of foul. This has lead to a feeling in society that it is OK to screw over a business to gain a little more than we are entitled to, since we are simply giving them back some of what they dish out. Businesses try to tell us how this is still theft, and that we all suffer in the end, but while they are telling us, they draw on some obscure term, or point of law, to screw a few extra pence/cents out of us without us even noticing.

Players who don't always read the terms and make honest mistakes are the vulnerable members of our electronic community, as such we should be looking out for them, watching for these mistakes and stepping in to guide them and put them on the right track. This casino, on the other hand, sat back while these players deposited and lost, knowing full well that they would never get paid if they won. This is simply preying on their vulnerability, not helping them.

There are those surveys that ask the question, if this business were a person, what would they be like;
Well, if THIS business were a person, they would see some old codger drop a tenner on their way back from collecting their pension, but rather than tapping them on the shoulder and telling them of their mistake, would wait and see if they noticed, or just went on their way. If the old codger didn't turn back to pick it up, they would sidle up to the tenner, and keep it for themselves as a nice treat.

I know what to expect now with this lot. If I make a mistake, there are no second chances, they will grab the money and throw me to the lions. Their queer bonus system makes this quite likely, they don't use the MG one, so players could easily miss WR, and end up not having their account recredited and told to complete, but having everything confiscated.

I did play there briefly, but quit sharply when the first problems arose over accusations of "illegitimate play", where the rep said is was NOT fraud, nor did it breach the terms and conditions, and even players who did not take bonuses were affected. This had nothing to do with this wrong currency rule.

I DO, however, remember this being applied to a Turkish player, because they played in DOLLARS:confused: I cannot remember if that case was also to do with this group, but it made no sense, as the Turkish player was playing in the CORRECT currency as proscribed by this kind of term, that is, if the home currency is not offered, players shall use the dollar for their play.
This wouldn't be such a problem now, since Turkey has gone the way of the US, and banned online gambling.

If it became more generally known that these online casinos were routinely confiscating winnings and STEALING even the original deposit under the guise of "voiding play", I would expect there to be increasing public and government support throughout the world for an outright BAN, (the American view), rather than trying to bring the industry into general acceptance as a valid entertainment offering.
 
What a load of rubbish - all casino's know some player's prefer other currencies, for either playing enjoyment or other financial reasons - and all allow it, to maximise their customer base, without it costing them an extra penny. Grand Theft Hotel obviously had some minor issue about it, and the owner inserted a nice term allowing him to take all of their money...letting C.S. deal with any complaints, whilst he goes off sailing in the bahamas - until the issue gets raised somewhere like here, and he has to pay back one or two customers mebbe & then all is forgiven & certain affiliate posters give him this :thumbsup: for taking the time to resolve it.
 
If it became more generally known that these online casinos were routinely confiscating winnings and STEALING even the original deposit under the guise of "voiding play", I would expect there to be increasing public and government support throughout the world for an outright BAN, (the American view), rather than trying to bring the industry into general acceptance as a valid entertainment offering.
First of all, great post. I thought alot of what you posted. I am just not sure I could articulate my thoughts with the ability you do but I am sure I do not have the patience to type such a legnthy post, kudos to you:thumbsup:.....Per the quote above, I can only wish "the American view" but as was seen with the White Label Issue, Absolute Poker Issue, and other past and present issues, the playing public does not care (until it happens to him/her/it and then the fury) as they need their dopamine highs regardless and the industry knows it despite the BS propaganda studies by e-Cogra,etc........Earlier this evening, I mentioned in a conversation to a member of this board that the way that Frist did what he did was wrong but what he did was right! Do not blame the religious right on UIGEA, maybe some other agendas can be blamed but I really do not care......unfortunately to those that understand the real issues, the issues (and Board) seems to almost be a battle between a few players like yourself versus numerous affiliates,webmasters,casino reps.,etc. who imo exhibit cult like characteristics so who knows....It disheartens that the select few honest and quality casinos,affiliates,webmasters,etc. have become innocent victims.....I could keep going but then when would I stop???.....Obviously, I think am really done with onlines with maybe some occasional entertainment slot play......Others may not be done but if this industry does not learn how to regulate/self regulate they will be! There is way too much hubris throughout the online industry (kinda reminds me of the late 80's on Wall Street-great book's if history teaches anything are Liar's Poker and Barbarians At The Gate,you guys better learn quick)...The international trend already indicates that and do not blame your loyal players or even the so called fraudsters (kinda like a B and M blaming a professional cardcounter who may have the ability to grind away $100K/year)...not exactly bringing down those multi-billion dollar houses is it?.....Yep, I have taken all the fun out of online gambling:rolleyes:
 
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Doesn't seem like the casino is interested in replying me at all.. :rolleyes:

I just filed a dispute mediation to eCOGRA. Hope that they can do something about this.

It is not right that casinos imply these "FU" terms in their TC. Setting a trap for the player to walk right into... A guaranteed win for the casino, and a guaranteed loss for the player.
 
NASH is absolutely right when he says americans just don't care unless it happens to then or theirs, and when it does thats when we get on the bandwagon but untill then it's so much "ah, so sorry for you but i gotta still get MY enjoyment"
 
NASH is absolutely right when he says americans just don't care unless it happens to then or theirs, and when it does thats when we get on the bandwagon but untill then it's so much "ah, so sorry for you but i gotta still get MY enjoyment"

This Yank cares :D

I doubt if Max or Bryan read every thread and Gaahl didn't ask them to look into it afaik.

So, please, Gaahl - keep the Board up to date when you learn something.
 
Sorry for not following up this case before now. I have had a pending dispute mediation with eCOGRA, therefor I have been reluctant to post any more posts here.

eCOGRA has finaly made a ruling, and that is that the Casino has to pay me back my deposit, not my winnings. I am glad that I atleast got my deposit back, but I am equally disapointed that it is OK for casinos to try and trick people with theese kinds sneaky terms and conditions. It just shows that Grand Hotel Casino doesn't care ONE INCH of the customer, other than taking their money, whatever means possible.

I will quote some of the points I made in my reply to Tex

1. What would have happened if I had ended up loosing my deposit before my account was closed? Would I still had my deposit refunded? My gut feeling tells me no. I put my money at risk, I could have lost, but I won, what does that have to do with what currency I play in? For a serious run operations this doesn't matter. Look at 32Red for example, they don't have sneaky terms like this.

2. Is it OK for a casino to try and trick people with sneaky terms and conditions? As I wrote in my first mail to you, as I live outside the EU, all currencies were illegal for me to play in. My question is, why did the casino let me register in the first place? It would take less then 1 line of programming to fix this, yet the casino havent. It is also another fact that I did not recive my deposit back before complaining to eCOGRA. There are many people out there who are not aware that eCOGRA exist, and therefor loose all their money to these sneaky terms and conditions.

Lojo: I took the liberty to quote your exelent view on this matter:

if the casino accepted a wager in seashells or cowdung they should pay the result in seashells or cowdung


It is quite clear to me that Grand Hotel Casino put this as a trap in their T&C to try and lure more people into the trap. In a note I can say that I recieved a sympathy PM from path saying that at 32RED I could play in whatever currency I felt like, and he even gave me a pile of free chips to play with. That is taking care of your customers.

After the case was "solved" I recived a PM from VegasVIP Lounge, which I find nothing but cheeky.

Should you need any further assistance do not hesitate to contact us...and don't forget to tell your friends about our great Customer Service! :D

Are they serious? They let me register and play in an "illegal" currency, they confiscate my winnings and my deposit. They refuse to pay me my winnings and to refund my deposit, I have an email from them saying this, and I even called them on the phone and they gave the same reply there. It was only after I contacted eCOGRA and made a post in here that they decided to refund my deposit. No winnings were paid back to me. And they still have sneeky TC.

yeah Natalie, I wil not forgett to tell my friend about your truly great Customer Service............. :rolleyes:
 
You have told 40% of the player community about their "great customer service".

The problem with eCogra is that they take no account of whether terms are fair or not, but whether the casino acted within them. Generally, eCogra will insist on a return of deposit if the term invoked involves the "voiding of winnings", as in this case. I the case of fraud however, eCogra may allow the casino to keep some or all of a deposit to cover it's costs.

Casinos have far more freedom than they would have if they were judged by domestic consumer contract laws in the player's own countries. This now includes the UK, where from September 1st 2007 gambling debts lost their immunity from enforcement through the courts. This could be one reason why casinos have gone for whitelisting rather than full UK regulation, the other being a saving in tax.

Casinos that have these currency rules have tried to claim they are to prevent bonus abuse, but this has proven not to be the reason behind them as players who do not take bonuses also have their winnings confiscated.
Had you lost, you would NOT have got your deposit back, the casino would never have told you that your play was invalid for fear that you would reclaim your losses.
The fact this term continues to be "buried" rather than prominently displayed by casinos that have it shows they are indeed using it as a means to boost profits by taking advantage of unwary players who do not bother to scrutinise the terms each time they open an account.
One way to help players is to highlight such cases each time they occur, in the hope that more and more players will learn that they CANNOT assume that what the registration software says you can do, is actually allowed.
Casinos have long benefited from rules unsupported by the software, and the software suppliers certainly have the resources available to them to fix this issue for the protection of players, but they choose not to. The design and implementation of just ONE new game, is more complex than designing a foolproof registration system that would prevent players from making wrong choices, yet they can churn out 5 such games each month, but have yet to address this issue. It's clearly not a case of "can't be done", but "we don't want to do it".
If the software DID prevent players from making mistakes with registrations and bonuses, casinos would NEVER be in a position to validly use their "FU Clause" except in the few cases of genuine player fraud, over and above "bonus abuse fraud" which is the most common kind of "fraud".
 
I'm glad you followed through, Gaahl. At least you got your deposit back and exposed another incidence of this.

Now I hope they know that you'll never deposit there again and that 32Red has your future custom.:thumbsup:
 
I'm glad you followed through, Gaahl. At least you got your deposit back and exposed another incidence of this.

Now I hope they know that you'll never deposit there again and that 32Red has your future custom.:thumbsup:

Maybe 32red could use this as a marketing move. PROMINENTLY state that you CAN play in any currency you want, UNLIKE many other casinos. It would get them players who prefer other currencies, as well as inform site visitors that there is this issue of currency when playing online, an issue that was not evident before.

They could even run a special offer for new players who come to them after having winnings confiscated purely as a result of the currency trap. Players would have to submit proof of the confiscation, and then they could be made an individual offer to suit their tastes. They should be asked to pass verification before being given the offer, as there is a danger that bonus whores would exploit this by faking confiscation claims.
 
:thumbsup: Well done for following this up Ghaal, I hope that some of the support you got from members here gave you that extra incentive needed.
It is not just the money it is the principles involved.

Good luck at 23 RED :thumbsup:
 
Hell, today is my 24th birthday.. LOL.. Had a woman in my pocket, guess I was to greedy, ended up with no woman at all.. yeh yeh, stocks in the bank :D Mee and a friend watching Pulp Fiction instead.. Thanx to lojo, Fear and loathing in las vegas man! :D And thanx to winyl and everyone else..
Pissed drunk, nice birthday :D
 
Hell, today is my 24th birthday.. LOL.. Had a woman in my pocket, guess I was to greedy, ended up with no woman at all.. yeh yeh, stocks in the bank :D Mee and a friend watching Pulp Fiction instead.. Thanx to lojo, Fear and loathing in las vegas man! :D And thanx to winyl and everyone else..
Pissed drunk, nice birthday :D


Happy Belated Birthday Gaahl​


:cheers::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::cheers:
 

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