Videoslots Shocker!

[snorky510238]

Another question re-Bonanza, is why do some sites, start on the default setting for the game, whilst others still show the exact screen, as you left it, the last time you logged out?

Another thing I started to notice, fairly recently, is that if (big if), my balance was holding for a long period, with a hit rate of, say 1 in 3 or 4. It would suddenly change and start playing beyond dreadful. I got to recognise this symptom and would return to the lobby each time to find that I had been logged out.

How is it even possible to be playing the game, whilst logged out? This happened very regularly but only at certain Casinos. 32 Red and more recently VS amongst others. Other Casinos, I have never been logged out and still able to play.

The most noticeable thing about this scenario, was that the game always played dreadfully, during that spell. As I say, so much so, that you had to log back in to hopefully save your balance.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

If good luck can last 6 years so can bad luck.

 

[snorky510238]

If good luck can last 6 years so can bad luck.

It would go heavily against the theory of everything being random though, wouldn’t it?

You did say yourself that the reason you stopped playing Bonanza was because you were going for unbelievably long spells of spins and money without seeing a bonus.

You even said, it was for your own sanity. Are we going to put it down to pure coincidence that you and I, (almost certainly in the top ten players of Bonanza, on this forum) along with a few others, All noticed exactly the same thing at the same time?

We know the game was changed beyond recognition, these other posters are just surmising, without even playing more than a few thousand spins through the game.

When you’ve played a game virtually every day for nearly six years and wagered millions of pounds through it, you get a real feel for “the norm”. Hit rate, things the game does or in Bonanza’s case, doesn’t do. Then all of a sudden, it changes beyond recognition and plays nothing like the game you played previously, then you have to ask questions.

I would easily hit 6 bonus rounds in an evening and sometimes 10 or 12. I only ever had a handful of evenings, where I didn’t hit at least 1.

But nowadays, I have been 3 or 4 days without seeing one and on a consistent basis. It used to be a real rarity to have to deposit more than £100 without one turning up but in the latter months, I deposited £300 without seeing one on many an occasion.

What made it even worse, is that in the first 4 and a half years, even if you had a little blip, it was capable of throwing a few x500’s to compensate. Now, as I say you can go for days without even seeing a bonus and when it does land it struggles to pay x100.

I could post every bonus round I have ever hit and that would prove, even to the biggest doubters ever, that the game has been changed dramatically. The downward trend, is beyond alarming.

Even if I did that, you would still have the “blind faith”, saying “that can happen” or that I was leaving things out, to suit my agenda. It would be a lifetime’s work to do it and as I say, it would just be dismissed by the majority on here but “the camera never lies” and I have all the pictures to back up what I am saying.

What do the doubters have to prove what they are saying? Absolutely nothing but trust. That mighty big word that can be spoken yet never seen.

 

[Jono777]

Yeah random is lose, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose, win per session

Not 6 years then lose till I RIP

Whether it is dodgy or not, something big has changed in the last couple of years, nothing to do with luck, RTP, variance, bonuses, players dropping off, spin volume.

If they are as squeaky clean as the so called "people in the know" say there are then why not offer an in depth explanation even if it is 100 pages to read, shut us the naysayers once and forever, rather than just constantly "rubbish" our allegations or rather not allegations EXPERIENCES!

Its the very fact they they don't ever do this that will always keep the doubt strongly afloat!

 

[aceking123]

Interesting enough some of these providers have made some serious money over last 28 months or so, there getting fat & greedy.
Take a sneak at inspired gaming latest results, take note of what's really going on)

 

[Kroffe]

I cant believe some people are really claiming BTG would do something dodgy.
What, you think they just fabricate wins and come post them on the forum or something?
Or do you think they would come on the forum and claim that all sites are using the same version of Bonanza even if that was clearly not the case?
Its like you are saying they have made a post on this very forum saying that scatters do not appear in the max megaways spins at all, even tho everyone that has played bonanza know that they do (on most versions that is)

Please give your head a wobble, BTG is a upstanding and decent company that wouldnt dream of ever doing something shady.
If you still think otherwise, good luck proving it you fool. (please dont look around this forum for shady stuff)

 

[snorky510238]

I will let someone else have the pleasure of relaying the story about winning their own competition and getting caught out.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

My post wasn’t directed at you Snorks. It was a reply to Jono saying he was up over the first 6 years of him playing. Which in itself is equivalent to winning the lottery. Losing for the next 6 years is what is expected and is the norm.

Please tell me ur still not rowing bonanza? I thought u were finally done with all online slotting ??

 

[snorky510238]

My post wasn’t directed at you Snorks. It was a reply to Jono saying he was up over the first 6 years of him playing. Which in itself is equivalent to winning the lottery. Losing for the next 6 years is what is expected and is the norm.

Please tell me ur still not rowing bonanza? I thought u were finally done with all online slotting ??

Yeah, I only intended the first paragraph as a reply but just used your experience, which pretty much mirrors mine over that abysmal period, to back up what I am trying to get across.

I mean, you and me both played it for 4 and half years and yes we had the odd moan when it was shite but it was only temporary and the wins came back. It couldn’t have been too bad if we played and wagered for that amount of time.

Then all of a sudden it goes into death mode and so bad that virtually everyone is calling it out for no longer being fit for purpose. That’s not a coincidence, we didn’t all randomly start experiencing absolutely disgusting gameplay.

What a coincidence too, that it was bang in-line with Evolution acquiring BTG and wasn’t it also around the time the bonus buys became available?

As for Casinos, I once played at around 40. I now have 4 left and they will be closed very shortly. Oh and one that decided that after 4 years I need to verify my account and they have been holding me to ransom for 5 weeks now over a £60 withdrawal. It’s a pain in the arse but I don’t mind verification. Problem is, they need a utility bill, less than 3 months old and I only have water (yearly bill), council tax, the same and my electric bill is paperless so I am a bit stuffed.

N.B. If I close that account, do they have to pay me? Not well up on that sort of thing.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Imo the pragmatic games(obv only play them on top RTP) give far better value and long term play than anything BTG have released.

Yes people will harp on about the fact they are capped at 5000/10000x but they just seem to play so much better.

I didn’t use to like the complete lack of just one scatter and the mechanic of how they award bonuses in the past but it kind of grows on you.

I’m only playing with odd left over funds from football and horse racing returns really. Tbf I bet a fair bit, but am pretty sensible.

I had a few lucky 15’s and accas that paid well and was trying the prags with the enhanced chance of feature on. All min stake of course or occasionally up to 50p if a while without a land. But not chasing to hard for features like I would of on bonanza.

Within a couple of months I had a max win on chilli heat megaways(5000x) over 2000x on buffalo Megaways and another of over 1000x and a couple of very juicy hits on Madame Destiny megaways.

All in the space of 8 weeks. Now while I appreciate I ran well and was fortunate and clearly was lucking out, in over 4 years of playing bonanza I didn’t manage anything close to 5000x or get over 2000x until almost 5 years of solid rowing.

Like many I was fooled by its alleged potential and altho I still think it’s a good game, there are far better ones out there.

There is only one BTG game imo that backs up what it says on the tin and that’s lil devil. The rest might produce an annual big hit between them but nothing compared to other providers. That’s not to say I don’t think some of them are decent and I do believe they are fair.

For me, the dead horse has been well and truly flogged on bonanza.

 

[Matti]

I cant believe some people are really claiming BTG would do something dodgy.
What, you think they just fabricate wins and come post them on the forum or something?
Or do you think they would come on the forum and claim that all sites are using the same version of Bonanza even if that was clearly not the case?
Its like you are saying they have made a post on this very forum saying that scatters do not appear in the max megaways spins at all, even tho everyone that has played bonanza know that they do (on most versions that is)

Please give your head a wobble, BTG is a upstanding and decent company that wouldnt dream of ever doing something shady.
If you still think otherwise, good luck proving it you fool. (please dont look around this forum for shady stuff)

I like your post. You have a logical approach. This thread has however nothing to do with logic.
These kind of accusations have been around for as long as there has been gambling. You just need to read the big Tracemonkey thread to realize that there will always be individuals that believe that there is foul play going on, no matter the facts presented.

Tracemonkey really gave an effort trying to enlighten and explain how it works but gave up in the end. I guess that some people in the end just don’t want the truth because they ”feel” that something is wrong.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

With regards to casinos it’s now pretty much only bet365.

As a uk resident I don’t really see why you would play anywhere else??

I always hated playing at ‘foreign’ casinos due to a worry about withdrawals not being honoured.

While I’ve had many limits imposed on the betting side of things I’ve never once not been paid out or had a problem with any withdrawal at UK bookie sites.

As for videoslots??? No chance of me playing there or mr vegas. I mean why would you? Unless you want to just stick to BTG or like seeing that you’ve won a trophy or an award whilst giving away far to much RTP.

I just don’t get it.

Years ago yes, but not now.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I like your post. You have a logical approach. This thread has however nothing to do with logic.
These kind of accusations have been around for as long as there has been gambling. You just need to read the big Tracemonkey thread to realize that there will always be individuals that believe that there is foul play going on, no matter the facts presented.

Tracemonkey really gave an effort trying to enlighten and explain how it works but gave up in the end. I guess that some people in the end just don’t want the truth because they ”feel” that something is wrong.

Yes I agree with you. However trance enlightened people to how it ‘should’ work.

Since then, we’ve had a provider releasing games that played completely different in demo when this is against the rules.

We’ve had A huge UK Company and giant in the industry (Gala Coral) advertising games on the wrong RTP.

And as a full time AWP player for a fair while (about 15 years) I can assure you other ‘dodgy’ stuff was going on in the land based world.

Im not of the same opinion of the likes of Snorky jono and Kenny nor do I share their paranoia about the industry, but you can see why some people have these feelings.

But nobody will ever be able to produce concrete proof here or anywhere else. So it’s an almost pointless debate.

 

[Kroffe]

I like your post. You have a logical approach. This thread has however nothing to do with logic.
These kind of accusations have been around for as long as there has been gambling. You just need to read the big Tracemonkey thread to realize that there will always be individuals that believe that there is foul play going on, no matter the facts presented.

Tracemonkey really gave an effort trying to enlighten and explain how it works but gave up in the end. I guess that some people in the end just don’t want the truth because they ”feel” that something is wrong.

But the truth is that there is alot of foul play going on.
Just check the list of fines dealt out by UKGC and Spelinspektionen.

Sure some of them are 'dumb' fines, but in many cases it shows that casinos are absolutely prepared to break the rules to increase their profits.
The fines are so low that what they pay is only a % of the profits made from breaking the rules.
And a lot of the times they dont even get fines.
Coral showing 96% rtp in the helpfiles on their 94% PnG slots 'woops, totally a mistake' and there are many similar examples of 'mistakes' that conveniently just happen to help the casino increase profits.

Im sure that what Trancemonkey is saying about slots and how they work is true, IF the rules are followed.
But as we all know and can see for ourselves, when big money is involved rules are not followed.
Imo its silly to make a post saying 'no that cant be happening because its against the rules'
Its like saying you cant drive 55mph on a road only allowing 40mph because its against the rules, of course you are not supposed to, but you can if you want to.

Edit: im too slow, PMK beat me to it.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I only highlighted a few kroffe. There have been others along similar lines involving different sites.

 

[Matti]

But the truth is that there is alot of foul play going on.
Just check the list of fines dealt out by UKGC and Spelinspektionen.

Sure some of them are 'dumb' fines, but in many cases it shows that casinos are absolutely prepared to break the rules to increase their profits.
The fines are so low that they probably made 10x the amount for breaking the rule they were fined for breaking.
And a lot of the times they dont even get fines.
Coral showing 96% rtp in the helpfiles on their 94% PnG slots 'woops, totally a mistake' there are many similar examples.

Im sure that what Trancemonkey is saying about slots and how they work is true, IF the rules are followed.
But as we all know and can see for ourselves, when big money is involved rules are not followed.
Imo its silly to make a post saying 'no that cant be happening because its against the rules'
Its like saying you cant drive 55mph on a road only allowing 40mph because its against the rules, of course you are not supposed to, but you can if you want to.

Edit: im too slow, PMK beat me to it.

I haven’t seen any fine that relates to foul play. The fines that have been issues have all been related to AML and RG. I’m not saying that’s ok. It has however nothing to do with that games are manipulates, compensated or some other bull that has been written in this thread.

Regarding Coral they had manually put in the RTP in their own GUI. When they changed their RTP they didn’t update that info on their website. I believe that it was down to bad internal routines. Changing RTP was not something that many casinos did until 2-3 years ago.

 

[Kroffe]

I haven’t seen any fine that relates to foul play. The fines that have been issues have all been related to AML and RG. I’m not saying that’s ok. It has however nothing to do with that games are manipulates, compensated or some other bull that has been written in this thread.

Regarding Coral they had manually put in the RTP in their own GUI. When they changed their RTP they didn’t update that info on their website. I believe that it was down to bad internal routines. Changing RTP was not something that many casinos did until 2-3 years ago.

Allowing bets on games that have minors, breaking aml/Rg regulations etc was just examples of how casinos are willing to break the rules if it means making more money.

Look at any industry on this planet that involves a lot of money and you will find corruption.
That does not mean that i think all casinos are corrupt, but rules do not stop greedy people from lying, cheating & stealing, especially not when the punishment for being caught is a slap on the wrist.
A lot of people will lie, cheat & steal if they are able to, only someone that is very blue-eyed would think that the casino industry is somehow different and all the people working in it are good&honest people that follow the rules.

And as for fines relating to foul play, all fines handed out were due to foul play.
Breaking regulations is pretty much the definition of foul play.

 

[Matti]

Allowing bets on games that have minors, breaking aml/Rg regulations etc was just examples of how casinos are willing to break the rules if it means making more money.

Look at any industry on this planet that involves a lot of money and you will find corruption.
That does not mean that i think all casinos are corrupt, but rules do not stop greedy people from lying, cheating & stealing, especially not when the punishment for being caught is a slap on the wrist.
A lot of people will lie, cheat & steal if they are able to, only someone that is very blue-eyed would think that the casino industry is somehow different and all the people working in it are good&honest people that follow the rules.

And as for fines relating to foul play, all fines handed out were due to foul play.
Breaking regulations is pretty much the definition of foul play.

I suggest you start a new thread about casinos being greedy and without morals. That is however not what this thread has been about imo.
Good night Bear.

 

[Kroffe]

I suggest you start a new thread about casinos being greedy and without morals. That is however not what this thread has been about imo.
Good night Bear.

Good night Dog.

 

[snorky510238]

You just need to read the big Tracemonkey thread to realize that there will always be individuals that believe that there is foul play going on, no matter the facts presented.

I wasn’t aware that any facts have ever been posted. It’s all just opinions isn’t it?

To be fair, I would say there has been more evidence that shows slots can have faults, than there has to say they don’t.

Take the Unibet version of Bonanza, there’s the issue of a standard 4 scatter trigger awarding 17 spins instead of 12. On the first spin of the bonus round, you get 3 carts for the extra 5 spins. That is a programming error. There is also the fact, that they have somehow omitted the option to play at 80p.

If these simple errors can occur, what’s to say other more significant, complex errors can’t be made?

 

[Christine28]

That is why I posted because I have reached the stage, where I can no longer have any confidence in any Casino.

If you could see my gameplay for the last 6 months at all the Casinos I play, then you would see, the stark similarities.

This cannot be down to bad luck, it really can’t. I am not one to question things unless I have good reason to do so.

As for the variance being changed, I will absolutely guarantee you that Bonanza, DHV, Chilli and Millionaire, have all been altered.

Bonanza, to the degree where it’s unrecognisable from the original version. I used to have sessions on that, where I could regularly hit between 5 and 10 bonuses and come away with a decent win.

Now your lucky if you see one bonus in 1,000 spins and when you do it generally pays less than x100.

This is partly why I have posted this because I am done with online slotting. I am walking away from the turgid filthy industry that it has become.

It may not be anytime soon but one day the truth will come out about it all.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I wasn’t aware that any facts have ever been posted. It’s all just opinions isn’t it?

Frankly, no, it isn't.

It isn't an opinion that online slots are certified and licensed by a regulatory authority, and that any game that doesn't comply to regulations would leave casinos wide open to all kinds of punitive action - that's just a fact.

It also isn't an opinion that slots are subject to extensive development and testing by the developers themselves, for example we know that NLC do at least TEN BILLION simulated spins before they kick a game out of the door, because they want to make damn sure it's working properly - that too, is a statement of fact.

If I were VS I wouldn't want a slot on my books that wasn't making RTP, because there would clearly something wrong with it and it would be, and therefore I would be, by extension, in breach of legislation and likely to have the UKGC throw a multi-million pound fine my way.

So let's not conflate unsubstantiated mud-slinging based on 'feelings', with verifiable and evidenced facts.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

I think @Shafted has a bit of a point regarding it being easier to win on a slot when it's first released,based on my own general experience. I would be interested,in a straw poll way,to know if this is the case with others or total BS?

 

[mack341]

It isn't an opinion that online slots are certified and licensed by a regulatory authority, and that any game that doesn't comply to regulations would leave casinos wide open to all kinds of punitive action - that's just a fact.

How does this fit with the regulation/ licensing of uk AWPs over the years?

How many fines have been issued for machines that could be emptied via a method and then played by unsuspecting [trusting] members of the public, who would effectively refill the machine's coffers?

Can you point me to the line in the legislation/rules where the ukgc refer to fines for slots that don't meet their rtp?

 

[Jono777]

I like your post. You have a logical approach. This thread has however nothing to do with logic.
These kind of accusations have been around for as long as there has been gambling. You just need to read the big Tracemonkey thread to realize that there will always be individuals that believe that there is foul play going on, no matter the facts presented.

Tracemonkey really gave an effort trying to enlighten and explain how it works but gave up in the end. I guess that some people in the end just don’t want the truth because they ”feel” that something is wrong.

To be fair (and I actually like the bloke) we were only presented with what he told us as an industry worker.

Many would take it with a pinch of salt and it would take trust to believe what he said, which in turn is not the same as hard proof.

What is needed is an idiots guide to the math and programming of a slot A-Z of the full in's and out's of how everything works.

This we will never get so people like me and their dis-trust and threads like this one will continue.

Its bollocks really as when I worked land based casino and doubters and conspiracy theorists came in, I, on a handful of occasions took the roulette wheel apart in front of them and the amount of balls I cut in half to show no metal or magnets, well........

 

[ChopleyIOM]

How does this fit with the regulation/ licensing of uk AWPs over the years?

How many fines have been issued for machines that could be emptied via a method and then played by unsuspecting [trusting] members of the public, who would effectively refill the machine's coffers?

Can you point me to the line in the legislation/rules where the ukgc refer to fines for slots that don't meet their rtp?

There's pages and pages about it here -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Anyway, the burden of proof rests with those who are casting the aspersions here, I'm not the one saying that the moon is made of cheese, and if I was, a counter-argument wouldn't be 'Well prove to me that the moon isn't made of cheese'.

Besides all this, VS have already shown us what they do when they want to make more money out of a game, they just lower the RTP. Why would they bother with all this incredible cloak and daggers fuckery when they can just take the games at a different maths model and achieve the same result without, y'know, breaking the law.

 

[mack341]

There's pages and pages about it here -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Anyway, the burden of proof rests with those who are casting the aspersions here, I'm not the one saying that the moon is made of cheese, and if I was, a counter-argument wouldn't be 'Well prove to me that the moon isn't made of cheese'.

Besides all this, VS have already shown us what they do when they want to make more money out of a game, they just lower the RTP. Why would they bother with all this incredible cloak and daggers fuckery when they can just take the games at a different maths model and achieve the same result without, y'know, breaking the law.

Sounds like you cannot actually point me to the rule/law regarding fines for rtp issues, or to any instances of fines re awp machines, despite knowing a lot of those games went to market with 'exploits' coded in [by accident or otherwise]

Yet you're 100% sure the slot playing public is fully protected by the ukgc?

[I'm not particularly aiming anything at VS, I don't play there but generally stick to the uk/bookie sites.]

I wonder how many old time players [say 2014] feel their slotting 'luck' is the same now if not better - on games where stated rtp is unchanged.

edit: As many, going by comments on various threads, seem to feel theirs is worse now.

 

[TheAddict]

To be fair (and I actually like the bloke) we were only presented with what he told us as an industry worker.

Many would take it with a pinch of salt and it would take trust to believe what he said, which in turn is not the same as hard proof.

What is needed is an idiots guide to the math and programming of a slot A-Z of the full in's and out's of how everything works.

This we will never get so people like me and their dis-trust and threads like this one will continue.

Its bollocks really as when I worked land based casino and doubters and conspiracy theorists came in, I, on a handful of occasions took the roulette wheel apart in front of them and the amount of balls I cut in half to show no metal or magnets, well........

Is that where the term "done ya bollocks" originated? A Moan about cheating at Jonos table and you risked walking away without ya nads?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Sounds like you cannot actually point me to the rule/law regarding fines for rtp issues, or to any instances of fines re awp machines, despite knowing a lot of those games went to market with 'exploits' coded in [by accident or otherwise]

With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

I'm saying that VS are running fair, random games with a house edge, and they make their money by taking a cut of the proceeds from those games, we all know they're not shy of running games at crap RTPs, so that house edge can often be substantial - there's really no need for them to cheat, or indeed particular benefit in them doing so considering the immense effort it'd take and the risks it would entail.

Alternatively, VS are cheating. So what are VS up to then? What does 'underhanded' mean? Well let's look at the options.

1) They are running hacked games
2) They are in cahoots with BTG and have special anti-snorky versions of their slots
3) They have access to secret backdoor online casino controls that can interfere with the games and make them play 'wrong'
4) They are somehow fiddling with the network traffic to alter the results
5) Insert conspiracy theory here

And they're doing all this to cheat snorky out of his £15 deposits.

On balance, which one sounds more credible? There isn't even a claim here that the games aren't meeting RTP, just that they're playing 'funny', the complaint literally seems to be that money is being lost in a 'suspicious' way on random games with a house edge.

 

[aceking123]

I'm unaware of any provider being fined period, for any game that has passed checking upon going live, which does seem odd.

It seems to get pulled if it's not correct only then to return, again no fines issued because there was a problem, same with jackpot games where does all the funds go, are we going to believe that all those funds have been given back ??

I know I few which has gone back into other games, not many though, again the industry is pretty corrupt.

As always go by your gut feeling it's hardly ever incorrect ?

 

[satchnz]

This debate could go on and on and on…

But I think there are a few key takeaways:

1. If you do not trust a particular casino, stop playing there and find another that you do trust. There is little otherwise a customer can do.
2. If you think all casinos and/or providers are dodgy, then stop playing completely.
3. If you really think you can take on (what you feel is a dodgy) casino, then start legal action against it. Don’t rely on the UKGC to do anything as they are not here for us players. If you are successful then the UKGC will get involved as they will make money from enforcing big fines.

I really can’t see any other viable or sensible option.

 

[snorky510238]

Frankly, no, it isn't.

It isn't an opinion that online slots are certified and licensed by a regulatory authority, and that any game that doesn't comply to regulations would leave casinos wide open to all kinds of punitive action - that's just a fact.

It also isn't an opinion that slots are subject to extensive development and testing by the developers themselves, for example we know that NLC do at least TEN BILLION simulated spins before they kick a game out of the door, because they want to make damn sure it's working properly - that too, is a statement of fact.

If I were VS I wouldn't want a slot on my books that wasn't making RTP, because there would clearly something wrong with it and it would be, and therefore I would be, by extension, in breach of legislation and likely to have the UKGC throw a multi-million pound fine my way.

So let's not conflate unsubstantiated mud-slinging based on 'feelings', with verifiable and evidenced facts.

Is it not also a fact that there are AML laws in place. Hasn’t stopped some Casinos being fined millions of pounds for non compliance though, has it?

Why do you think there isn’t a great big banner on the homepage of Casinos, stating all the games which are now running at a lower rtp? It’s because this industry is as underhanded as it possibly can be.

Seeing as you seem to have the answer to everything, can you please tell me, what the outcome would be, if a slot was found to have taken millions of pounds in extra revenue because it hadn’t been meeting the trtp for the last 2 years?

 

[slot_zombie]

I'm unaware of any provider being fined period, for any game that has passed checking upon going live, which does seem odd.

I remember in the dim and distant past, a game (IGT?) made it out into the wild with an RTP error that was against the player. Sorry I don't remember the name but it was posted on here. The game was quickly pulled and players refunded a % based on their gameplay. I think they had to inform the UKGC as well.

I don't think there is anything illegal going on, but I do believe a lot of games have had maths models "adjusted" to play harsher or differently, while maintaining the same RTP.

But if you want to see some real shittery, take a look at the "maximum win achieved" data on the Play & Go slots on Stake (all max RTP). This is for the lifetime of these games on the site, from all players bashing away at them:

Title - "Potential" - Actual Maximum Win
Moon Princess 5000x 1323x
Rise Of Olympus 5000x 1172x
Rotiki 1000x 1000x
Reactoonz 2 5083x 2177x
Wild Frames 7000x 3389x
Cat Wilde & Pyramids 10000x 1314x
Wild North 2500x 441x
Wild Blood 2 5000x 2655x
Ring Of Odin 5000x 1650x
Gigantoonz (for balance) 4000x 4000x

Yes a few have paid their potential max win, most have not got close, but if ever there were examples of maths model chicanery.......... this should be against trades descriptions, and yes at least Pragmatics do hit their max wins once in a blue moon!

 

[kennygamerboy]

I'm dead

??

so your typing from beyond the grave spooky

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Is it not also a fact that there are AML laws in place. Hasn’t stopped some Casinos being fined millions of pounds for non compliance though, has it?

Why do you think there isn’t a great big banner on the homepage of Casinos, stating all the games which are now running at a lower rtp? It’s because this industry is as underhanded as it possibly can be.

Seeing as you seem to have the answer to everything, can you please tell me, what the outcome would be, if a slot was found to have taken millions of pounds in extra revenue because it hadn’t been meeting the trtp for the last 2 years?

slot_zombie has already answered this above, so yes, have been (very rare!) cases where errors were made with RTP and the money was refunded to players. In the case of your scenario above, I honestly don't believe it would ever come to pass, as both the casinos and the developer would pick up on it very quickly. If any non-compliance did manage to last out in the wild for an extended period of time and many players were adversely affected, I'd expect the UKGC to get their big book of fines out, which we know they like to wave around.

No one's saying that everything is always perfect and mistakes don't get made occasionally (although I can't think of any remotely recent example of where a game wasn't meeting RTP), but there's a difference between a rare genuine mistake, and what you're suggesting is happening at VS which is a deliberate and 'underhanded' campaign to systematically defraud players by some means or another.

It absolutely can't be repeated often enough that VS run games with a 4-8% house edge, they simply don't need to cheat anyone out of anything, it's literally written into the rules of the game that every time you press the SPIN button, they're going to take some money off you. (Averaged out over time.)

What specifically do you think has been done to make your gameplay so bad over the last 18 months? You've been losing money playing random games with a house edge, this is expected behaviour, so what 'underhanded' tactics do you think are in play?

 

[Jono777]

Quick Question guys....

How do we KNOW 100% for sure that a game is meeting T-RTP please?

Sure they may publish figures, check on individual sites your personal RTP etc but again, conspiracies aside, yet again we only know what we are told, and we are told more or less what we want to hear....

Don't think they'd be too quick to announce many short comings!

 

[SpinUk]

I remember in the dim and distant past, a game (IGT?) made it out into the wild with an RTP error that was against the player. Sorry I don't remember the name but it was posted on here. The game was quickly pulled and players refunded a % based on their gameplay. I think they had to inform the UKGC as well.

I don't think there is anything illegal going on, but I do believe a lot of games have had maths models "adjusted" to play harsher or differently, while maintaining the same RTP.

But if you want to see some real shittery, take a look at the "maximum win achieved" data on the Play & Go slots on Stake (all max RTP). This is for the lifetime of these games on the site, from all players bashing away at them:

Title - "Potential" - Actual Maximum Win
Moon Princess 5000x 1323x
Rise Of Olympus 5000x 1172x
Rotiki 1000x 1000x
Reactoonz 2 5083x 2177x
Wild Frames 7000x 3389x
Cat Wilde & Pyramids 10000x 1314x
Wild North 2500x 441x
Wild Blood 2 5000x 2655x
Ring Of Odin 5000x 1650x
Gigantoonz (for balance) 4000x 4000x

Yes a few have paid their potential max win, most have not got close, but if ever there were examples of maths model chicanery.......... this should be against trades descriptions, and yes at least Pragmatics do hit their max wins once in a blue moon!

If you have a one in 3 billion chance of the top win then it’s certainly possible. That and having a churning base game RTP to take the cash in the meantime. Bonanza prime example - anyone remember the 14,000x win doing the rounds about five years ago? Anyone seen anything approaching it since?

Imagine releasing a game where the maths model was low base game wins and a high number of large prizes at 97%RTP.

Imagine getting youtube coverage of those big wins. Then imagine changing the maths model to churn out low to medium wins and slashing the big wins down to 10% of the initial release, but maintaining the 97%RTP.

Imagine if that process took only about 30k in re-testing and re-development fees.

Almost like you would have a precedent on youtube of the big wins achievable for players to aim for yet having their chances slashed to nothing to actually get it.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Wouldn’t really matter tho would it? So long as the game maintains its RTP.

I’ve always said that for clarity, all updates and changes in version history should be stated and the reason for it somewhere within the game/help file.

So even if it’s a graphical change or an update cos of windows 10 or something we can all see it and the reason why.

That way if the variance or any big win frequency has either increased or reduced since initial release we are made aware of it and can make our own choices.

 

[SpinUk]

It would matter if you wanted an achievable high variance game but were now playing what is effectively a low to medium one. You ever played starburst?

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!

 

[paul7388]

Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!

Wow you must do well if your average bonus is 30x.

Do not play it often but most of the bonuses i ever got were absolute crap. Think i would need a 1000x bonus next time to get my average up to 30x.

 

[Kroffe]

Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!

Im pretty sure BTG has claimed the average bonus is ≈100x
So if the average is down to 30x now it would seem something has changed.

 

[paul7388]

Im pretty sure BTG has claimed the average bonus is ≈100x
So if the average is down to 30x now it would seem something has changed.

Who claimed that the BTG Rep.

Tho suppose for them the average would be at least 100x with all the 14,000 x wins they get.

 

[Kroffe]

Who claimed that the BTG Rep.

Tho suppose for them the average would be at least 100x with all the 14,000 x wins they get.

It was all won fair and square, the interns working there just happens to be very lucky people.

 

[Kroffe]

Isnt their a saying thats something like 'successful people make their own luck'
Seems fitting.

 

[X-Raided]

With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

I'm saying that VS are running fair, random games with a house edge, and they make their money by taking a cut of the proceeds from those games, we all know they're not shy of running games at crap RTPs, so that house edge can often be substantial - there's really no need for them to cheat, or indeed particular benefit in them doing so considering the immense effort it'd take and the risks it would entail.

Alternatively, VS are cheating. So what are VS up to then? What does 'underhanded' mean? Well let's look at the options.

1) They are running hacked games
2) They are in cahoots with BTG and have special anti-snorky versions of their slots
3) They have access to secret backdoor online casino controls that can interfere with the games and make them play 'wrong'
4) They are somehow fiddling with the network traffic to alter the results
5) Insert conspiracy theory here

And they're doing all this to cheat snorky out of his £15 deposits.

On balance, which one sounds more credible? There isn't even a claim here that the games aren't meeting RTP, just that they're playing 'funny', the complaint literally seems to be that money is being lost in a 'suspicious' way on random games with a house edge.

#2 has to be the most probable and realistic option on the list.

 

[X-Raided]

Isnt their a saying thats something like 'successful people make their own luck'
Seems fitting.

Have you felt that Who's The Bride has been tampered with over the years?

 

[Kroffe]

Have you felt that Who's The Bride has been tampered with over the years?

No, but the reason i made the swap was because it felt like Doa was playing differently.
I know they made different rtp versions for Doa, but i only played the 96% version, and i played it quite alot, couldnt hit anything even close to what i hit on WTB.
Atleast for me personally Doa has been shit ever since they changed it (reel speed different etc) and WTB is like Doa used to be back in the days.
I still play it once in a while, but it very much feels like a different slot.

WTB has been on the market less than 2 years, so its still somewhat new atleast when compared to slots like Doa/Bonanza.

 

[Kroffe]

Less than 3 years, not 2*
It was released late 2019.

 

[TheAddict]

Used to play Piggy Riches alot for wagering. done a few mill spins through it prior to evo. thought id have a bash first time since evo downgrade, since i have some wagering to do. Approx 3 hours. Not bothered about onky 5 features, zzz, but on 15p bet. £100 down. "big win" animations in base game (stupid big win message is 8x, or 10x bet, i forget) appeared less than ten times Best base game hit was £3.75 ish.
I have put millions of spins through this in the past. It simply just did not play this dead. Fuck you evo. Coincidently, just like Doa, the worst "bad run" type record I had on that you managed to go break as soon as we met. This is not the piggy riches I once knew, kiss my balls.