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ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
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How does this fit with the regulation/ licensing of uk AWPs over the years?

How many fines have been issued for machines that could be emptied via a method and then played by unsuspecting [trusting] members of the public, who would effectively refill the machine's coffers?

Can you point me to the line in the legislation/rules where the ukgc refer to fines for slots that don't meet their rtp?

There's pages and pages about it here -
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Anyway, the burden of proof rests with those who are casting the aspersions here, I'm not the one saying that the moon is made of cheese, and if I was, a counter-argument wouldn't be 'Well prove to me that the moon isn't made of cheese'.

Besides all this, VS have already shown us what they do when they want to make more money out of a game, they just lower the RTP. Why would they bother with all this incredible cloak and daggers fuckery when they can just take the games at a different maths model and achieve the same result without, y'know, breaking the law.
 
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mack341

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Location
south east england
There's pages and pages about it here -
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Anyway, the burden of proof rests with those who are casting the aspersions here, I'm not the one saying that the moon is made of cheese, and if I was, a counter-argument wouldn't be 'Well prove to me that the moon isn't made of cheese'.

Besides all this, VS have already shown us what they do when they want to make more money out of a game, they just lower the RTP. Why would they bother with all this incredible cloak and daggers fuckery when they can just take the games at a different maths model and achieve the same result without, y'know, breaking the law.

Sounds like you cannot actually point me to the rule/law regarding fines for rtp issues, or to any instances of fines re awp machines, despite knowing a lot of those games went to market with 'exploits' coded in [by accident or otherwise]

Yet you're 100% sure the slot playing public is fully protected by the ukgc?

[I'm not particularly aiming anything at VS, I don't play there but generally stick to the uk/bookie sites.]

I wonder how many old time players [say 2014] feel their slotting 'luck' is the same now if not better - on games where stated rtp is unchanged.

edit: As many, going by comments on various threads, seem to feel theirs is worse now.
 
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TheAddict

Ueber Meister
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Location
Kent
To be fair (and I actually like the bloke) we were only presented with what he told us as an industry worker.

Many would take it with a pinch of salt and it would take trust to believe what he said, which in turn is not the same as hard proof.

What is needed is an idiots guide to the math and programming of a slot A-Z of the full in's and out's of how everything works.

This we will never get so people like me and their dis-trust and threads like this one will continue.

Its bollocks really as when I worked land based casino and doubters and conspiracy theorists came in, I, on a handful of occasions took the roulette wheel apart in front of them and the amount of balls I cut in half to show no metal or magnets, well........
Is that where the term "done ya bollocks" originated? A Moan about cheating at Jonos table and you risked walking away without ya nads?
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
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Location
IOM
Sounds like you cannot actually point me to the rule/law regarding fines for rtp issues, or to any instances of fines re awp machines, despite knowing a lot of those games went to market with 'exploits' coded in [by accident or otherwise]

With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

I'm saying that VS are running fair, random games with a house edge, and they make their money by taking a cut of the proceeds from those games, we all know they're not shy of running games at crap RTPs, so that house edge can often be substantial - there's really no need for them to cheat, or indeed particular benefit in them doing so considering the immense effort it'd take and the risks it would entail.

Alternatively, VS are cheating. So what are VS up to then? What does 'underhanded' mean? Well let's look at the options.

1) They are running hacked games
2) They are in cahoots with BTG and have special anti-snorky versions of their slots
3) They have access to secret backdoor online casino controls that can interfere with the games and make them play 'wrong'
4) They are somehow fiddling with the network traffic to alter the results
5) Insert conspiracy theory here

And they're doing all this to cheat snorky out of his £15 deposits.

On balance, which one sounds more credible? There isn't even a claim here that the games aren't meeting RTP, just that they're playing 'funny', the complaint literally seems to be that money is being lost in a 'suspicious' way on random games with a house edge.
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
I'm unaware of any provider being fined period, for any game that has passed checking upon going live, which does seem odd.

It seems to get pulled if it's not correct only then to return, again no fines issued because there was a problem, same with jackpot games where does all the funds go, are we going to believe that all those funds have been given back ??

I know I few which has gone back into other games, not many though, again the industry is pretty corrupt.

As always go by your gut feeling it's hardly ever incorrect 🙃
 

satchnz

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2021
Location
Essex, UK
This debate could go on and on and on…

But I think there are a few key takeaways:
  1. If you do not trust a particular casino, stop playing there and find another that you do trust. There is little otherwise a customer can do.
  2. If you think all casinos and/or providers are dodgy, then stop playing completely.
  3. If you really think you can take on (what you feel is a dodgy) casino, then start legal action against it. Don’t rely on the UKGC to do anything as they are not here for us players. If you are successful then the UKGC will get involved as they will make money from enforcing big fines.
I really can’t see any other viable or sensible option.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Frankly, no, it isn't.

It isn't an opinion that online slots are certified and licensed by a regulatory authority, and that any game that doesn't comply to regulations would leave casinos wide open to all kinds of punitive action - that's just a fact.

It also isn't an opinion that slots are subject to extensive development and testing by the developers themselves, for example we know that NLC do at least TEN BILLION simulated spins before they kick a game out of the door, because they want to make damn sure it's working properly - that too, is a statement of fact.

If I were VS I wouldn't want a slot on my books that wasn't making RTP, because there would clearly something wrong with it and it would be, and therefore I would be, by extension, in breach of legislation and likely to have the UKGC throw a multi-million pound fine my way.

So let's not conflate unsubstantiated mud-slinging based on 'feelings', with verifiable and evidenced facts.
Is it not also a fact that there are AML laws in place. Hasn’t stopped some Casinos being fined millions of pounds for non compliance though, has it?

Why do you think there isn’t a great big banner on the homepage of Casinos, stating all the games which are now running at a lower rtp? It’s because this industry is as underhanded as it possibly can be.

Seeing as you seem to have the answer to everything, can you please tell me, what the outcome would be, if a slot was found to have taken millions of pounds in extra revenue because it hadn’t been meeting the trtp for the last 2 years?
 

slot_zombie

Meister Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Location
UK
I'm unaware of any provider being fined period, for any game that has passed checking upon going live, which does seem odd.

I remember in the dim and distant past, a game (IGT?) made it out into the wild with an RTP error that was against the player. Sorry I don't remember the name but it was posted on here. The game was quickly pulled and players refunded a % based on their gameplay. I think they had to inform the UKGC as well.

I don't think there is anything illegal going on, but I do believe a lot of games have had maths models "adjusted" to play harsher or differently, while maintaining the same RTP.

But if you want to see some real shittery, take a look at the "maximum win achieved" data on the Play & Go slots on Stake (all max RTP). This is for the lifetime of these games on the site, from all players bashing away at them:

Title - "Potential" - Actual Maximum Win
Moon Princess 5000x 1323x
Rise Of Olympus 5000x 1172x
Rotiki 1000x 1000x
Reactoonz 2 5083x 2177x
Wild Frames 7000x 3389x
Cat Wilde & Pyramids 10000x 1314x
Wild North 2500x 441x
Wild Blood 2 5000x 2655x
Ring Of Odin 5000x 1650x
Gigantoonz (for balance) 4000x 4000x

Yes a few have paid their potential max win, most have not got close, but if ever there were examples of maths model chicanery.......... this should be against trades descriptions, and yes at least Pragmatics do hit their max wins once in a blue moon!
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Is it not also a fact that there are AML laws in place. Hasn’t stopped some Casinos being fined millions of pounds for non compliance though, has it?

Why do you think there isn’t a great big banner on the homepage of Casinos, stating all the games which are now running at a lower rtp? It’s because this industry is as underhanded as it possibly can be.

Seeing as you seem to have the answer to everything, can you please tell me, what the outcome would be, if a slot was found to have taken millions of pounds in extra revenue because it hadn’t been meeting the trtp for the last 2 years?

slot_zombie has already answered this above, so yes, have been (very rare!) cases where errors were made with RTP and the money was refunded to players. In the case of your scenario above, I honestly don't believe it would ever come to pass, as both the casinos and the developer would pick up on it very quickly. If any non-compliance did manage to last out in the wild for an extended period of time and many players were adversely affected, I'd expect the UKGC to get their big book of fines out, which we know they like to wave around.

No one's saying that everything is always perfect and mistakes don't get made occasionally (although I can't think of any remotely recent example of where a game wasn't meeting RTP), but there's a difference between a rare genuine mistake, and what you're suggesting is happening at VS which is a deliberate and 'underhanded' campaign to systematically defraud players by some means or another.

It absolutely can't be repeated often enough that VS run games with a 4-8% house edge, they simply don't need to cheat anyone out of anything, it's literally written into the rules of the game that every time you press the SPIN button, they're going to take some money off you. (Averaged out over time.)

What specifically do you think has been done to make your gameplay so bad over the last 18 months? You've been losing money playing random games with a house edge, this is expected behaviour, so what 'underhanded' tactics do you think are in play?
 

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
Quick Question guys....

How do we KNOW 100% for sure that a game is meeting T-RTP please?

Sure they may publish figures, check on individual sites your personal RTP etc but again, conspiracies aside, yet again we only know what we are told, and we are told more or less what we want to hear....

Don't think they'd be too quick to announce many short comings!
 

SpinUk

Meister Member
PABnonaccred
MM
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Location
London
I remember in the dim and distant past, a game (IGT?) made it out into the wild with an RTP error that was against the player. Sorry I don't remember the name but it was posted on here. The game was quickly pulled and players refunded a % based on their gameplay. I think they had to inform the UKGC as well.

I don't think there is anything illegal going on, but I do believe a lot of games have had maths models "adjusted" to play harsher or differently, while maintaining the same RTP.

But if you want to see some real shittery, take a look at the "maximum win achieved" data on the Play & Go slots on Stake (all max RTP). This is for the lifetime of these games on the site, from all players bashing away at them:

Title - "Potential" - Actual Maximum Win
Moon Princess 5000x 1323x
Rise Of Olympus 5000x 1172x
Rotiki 1000x 1000x
Reactoonz 2 5083x 2177x
Wild Frames 7000x 3389x
Cat Wilde & Pyramids 10000x 1314x
Wild North 2500x 441x
Wild Blood 2 5000x 2655x
Ring Of Odin 5000x 1650x
Gigantoonz (for balance) 4000x 4000x

Yes a few have paid their potential max win, most have not got close, but if ever there were examples of maths model chicanery.......... this should be against trades descriptions, and yes at least Pragmatics do hit their max wins once in a blue moon!
If you have a one in 3 billion chance of the top win then it’s certainly possible. That and having a churning base game RTP to take the cash in the meantime. Bonanza prime example - anyone remember the 14,000x win doing the rounds about five years ago? Anyone seen anything approaching it since?

Imagine releasing a game where the maths model was low base game wins and a high number of large prizes at 97%RTP.

Imagine getting youtube coverage of those big wins. Then imagine changing the maths model to churn out low to medium wins and slashing the big wins down to 10% of the initial release, but maintaining the 97%RTP.

Imagine if that process took only about 30k in re-testing and re-development fees.

Almost like you would have a precedent on youtube of the big wins achievable for players to aim for yet having their chances slashed to nothing to actually get it.
 

PMKFRUITPRO

Meister Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Location
England
Wouldn’t really matter tho would it? So long as the game maintains its RTP.

I’ve always said that for clarity, all updates and changes in version history should be stated and the reason for it somewhere within the game/help file.

So even if it’s a graphical change or an update cos of windows 10 or something we can all see it and the reason why.

That way if the variance or any big win frequency has either increased or reduced since initial release we are made aware of it and can make our own choices.
 

SpinUk

Meister Member
PABnonaccred
MM
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Location
London
It would matter if you wanted an achievable high variance game but were now playing what is effectively a low to medium one. You ever played starburst?
 

PMKFRUITPRO

Meister Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Location
England
Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!
 

paul7388

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Location
glasgow scotland
Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!
Wow you must do well if your average bonus is 30x.

Do not play it often but most of the bonuses i ever got were absolute crap. Think i would need a 1000x bonus next time to get my average up to 30x.
 

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Only when given free spins on it!!

Yes going from one extreme to the other does make a difference obviously.

But then anything extreme would be noticeable rather quickly wouldn’t it?

If bonanza started giving bonuses for fun and then paying 15x instead of the average 30 we’d notice it!!!!
Im pretty sure BTG has claimed the average bonus is ≈100x
So if the average is down to 30x now it would seem something has changed. :p
 

Najasaki

Keep It Simple, Stupid.
PABaccred
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Your Happy Place
With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

I'm saying that VS are running fair, random games with a house edge, and they make their money by taking a cut of the proceeds from those games, we all know they're not shy of running games at crap RTPs, so that house edge can often be substantial - there's really no need for them to cheat, or indeed particular benefit in them doing so considering the immense effort it'd take and the risks it would entail.

Alternatively, VS are cheating. So what are VS up to then? What does 'underhanded' mean? Well let's look at the options.

1) They are running hacked games
2) They are in cahoots with BTG and have special anti-snorky versions of their slots
3) They have access to secret backdoor online casino controls that can interfere with the games and make them play 'wrong'
4) They are somehow fiddling with the network traffic to alter the results
5) Insert conspiracy theory here

And they're doing all this to cheat snorky out of his £15 deposits.

On balance, which one sounds more credible? There isn't even a claim here that the games aren't meeting RTP, just that they're playing 'funny', the complaint literally seems to be that money is being lost in a 'suspicious' way on random games with a house edge.

#2 has to be the most probable and realistic option on the list.
 

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Have you felt that Who's The Bride has been tampered with over the years?
No, but the reason i made the swap was because it felt like Doa was playing differently.
I know they made different rtp versions for Doa, but i only played the 96% version, and i played it quite alot, couldnt hit anything even close to what i hit on WTB.
Atleast for me personally Doa has been shit ever since they changed it (reel speed different etc) and WTB is like Doa used to be back in the days.
I still play it once in a while, but it very much feels like a different slot.

WTB has been on the market less than 2 years, so its still somewhat new atleast when compared to slots like Doa/Bonanza.
 
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TheAddict

Ueber Meister
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Location
Kent
Used to play Piggy Riches alot for wagering. done a few mill spins through it prior to evo. thought id have a bash first time since evo downgrade, since i have some wagering to do. Approx 3 hours. Not bothered about onky 5 features, zzz, but on 15p bet. £100 down. "big win" animations in base game (stupid big win message is 8x, or 10x bet, i forget) appeared less than ten times Best base game hit was £3.75 ish.
I have put millions of spins through this in the past. It simply just did not play this dead. Fuck you evo. Coincidently, just like Doa, the worst "bad run" type record I had on that you managed to go break as soon as we met. This is not the piggy riches I once knew, kiss my balls.
 

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