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paul7388

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Look, take it up with sttaff ( well, you wont)
you argue, because, frankly, you want to argue, and will find any cause to argue, because you want a cause to argue
Have at it
I'm too tired to argue with trolls
I only argue back when some idiot starts calling me out for something untrue.

But yeah go ahead keep having your digs. Like you have done with several other members in this thread. Or are they all causing it and picking on sweet innocent little you for nothing.

And of course I won't take anything up with staff. Nothing to take up as does not bother me if someone that is obviosy having g a bad day wants to embarrass themselves and act like a complete idiot.

Think staff have better things to do. And unlike yourself I never have or never would wish to PM and tag staff for every minor little thing. Like being at primary school. Please miss Johnny said a bad word.
 

mack341

Meister Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
I think possibly rtp has been moved into rare v. large base game wins [a bit like a jackpot, edit: the principle not the figure of a £million sat there waiting for a click lol!] so effectively unless you do lots of spins in a session, you end up getting 50% rtp or less.

Or my second theory is the prize pot has shrunken due to volume of play shrinking [covid, gamstop, people got sick of sow and shut accounts, low rtps etc..] therefore your general chance of a decent win is less, and chance of dead spins greater.

[ I think Jan the rep mentioned something similar could happen but met strong disagreement from trance and others ]

Also re certification and checks, if ukgc had no clue about uk fruit machines and how they could be emptied due to 'errors', presumably they still tested them or had them approved and tested on their behalf, yet time again it seems the machines all had backdoors for want of a better term.

Edit: Or could be a mixture of the first two. Raging rhino is playing its worst for me this last year. edit2: technically the ukgc predecessor for the fruit's heyday.
 
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aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
Thought I would chime in as I've been doing it for years.

The argument about of something has changed, could not agree more. Things have changed although I rarely play any longer & I don't really play btg games because I couldn't believe any words from anyone who works for them, long term members will know what I'm talking about.

The so called random 100% rng, I think all players know this is bull, I still rember asking micro gaming some 15years ago why there was a slight pause whilst changing stake on mg platform, never did get response & not a single affiliate or rep could answer still stands today. (My thoughts are they have different levels for different stakes.) That's not to say its rigged just doesn't sit well with me.

My favourite game is immortal romance, has it changed yes 100% is it worst yes 100%,do I play it, rarely only for max 200 spins.

It seems to me since it changed over the html they took a chance to drop the rtp without informing the player. Because that's when this game changed.


I'm damn sure that the (casinos) have got the ability to change stuff on a whim, the models were playing now have just shifted to big or nothing. Playing older games to where you got good play is now like teeth pulling they just seem to go same way. It could be that these games are played less without the revenue pushed through them, but sadly I don't believe it anymore.

There is some great value points here concerning the bonanza game over at sky,this shows what can be achieved & I believe for a fact that all games can be changed upon a update & even whilst running, every time you load a game up there's nothing stopping them from putting you on different versions of the game, wouldn't pay to much attention to what version it is.

In a nut shell I don't believe casinos any longer, the fact of to much information to draw your own conclusions, including live games, crazytime,monopoly, roulette,etc etc

Bottom line is your never be able to provide a large enough sample of games to put forward to a court of law. The ukgc don't do anything even if you have a valid reason, its all down to the numbers hence to why they get away with it. As long as it hits within a few% of the rtp then it's fine.

Let's be honest it's been happening for years but it's getting clearly worst over the last 5 years or so, with games playing poor most of the times.

It's doomed in uk so why bother playing the market in uk has become like a rope around your neck slowly quizzing you.

Snorks just stop playing, your just lose more trying to show how bad it is, for what it's worth I do believe in a few members here being spot on with the fifthly games & casinos.
 

dunover

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Look - no need for all this. Yes, I answered a point about RTP (among other things) which isn't really what the thread is about - apparently.

Games can indeed be 'nerfed' in suble and not-so-subte ways. I once played for example Cleopatra in a land-based which we know are 90% as opposes to 95% online. They did it by removing the small pay for 2 scatters, it was immediately noticeable. Not subtle. You can modify a game easily and make it play slightly differently and keep the same RTP. This cannot be done by the casino, only the developer. So on our favourite subject, the Bonanza game could be subtly changed for example removing a couple of diamonds from reel 1, so you halve the chance of getting the old DDDD as I call it (double-diamond dead drop) at 2x stake. You'll still get the pay, but not as often and you would notice it eventually but not immediately. To compensate for that, you could have a higher chance of a max ways spin, or slighly increase the feature average pay or the frequency of the feature.

There are innumerable ways you could subtly change a game and keep the same payout and indeed the same volatility. Each would have it's own version code in the rules. As to why they would do it and if indeed it does occur more often than we know I haven't a clue. Each player experiences different versions and forms their own beliefs of if and how it has been 'nerfed'.

It's beyond doubt that games are changed from time to time, we can prove this by primarily version numbers and normally our own long-term experience, that is without the old confirmation bias I hasten to add.

RTP is actually very relevant here as if a player notices a change in a game, that's usually the primary and obvious reason, but not always as I gave an example of above.

The fact is nobody really knows, simply because those who can confirm such things either don't know themselves or won't tell us anyway.

When your 4-pack of tubes of Rolos for £1 in your local supermarket gets reduced from 9 pieces a tube to 8, do Rowntrees make a TV ad telling you? Does your supermarket put a poster in the window saying "Rolos now 32 for a Pound and not 36!" Do they hell. It's up to you to find out yourselves, or notice the small 'Net Weight' text has changed.
 
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Matti

Senior Member
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Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Location
Sweden
Crikey! cool down peeps, it's a pretty basic, straightforward and resolvable point!

Right, Relax Gaming (who BTG still use as their platform) certainly do offer variable RTPs for their games, but not as low in range as Netent/PNG. They just tend to be a 50% higher house edge variant (which means 94% player RTP as opposed to the factory 96%) and that's true of Pragmatic Play and NLC and Push Gaming as well. So this applies to Relax and any smaller developers they have that actually do this. Then consider Relax are now part of WMS-SG-Light & Wonder who also have numerous developer names within their fold of which many offer variants too. BTG as far as I am aware from the game sheets that I have seen still don't offer lower versions although I think it's only a matter of time.

EDIT - P.S. Yes, there are clearly different versions of Bonanza (we know this anyway from the 'version code' in the game files) but they all have the same RTP. Why this is, I cannot say for sure but I'd suggest that being the main bed of Megaways feedback Bonanza would be ideal to 'tinker' with, not necessarily at the behest of the casino or platform but the developer. If you remember, one of the earlier observations about the game was the fact you couldn't get max ways in the bonus, which was changed for WWTBAM and other BTG Megaways since, including the most recent Max Megaways slot. We know the version SkyVegas and some other casinos used would never produce scatters in max ways spins for example, therefore giving more likelihood of bigger wins in their place.

As for NYX, they don't exist as such any more. NYX Open Group began in 1999 and were primarily a platform for Nextgen Gaming slots and others too, but are now owned by SG Digital/Light & Wonder as are Relax. So it's likely that if they haven't already, you'll be seeing a single platform not the both.
Relax is owned by Kindred(Unibet,32Red)
 

satchnz

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2021
Location
Essex, UK
Plenty of games get pulled due to errors in programming. It's not hard to believe that some errors might work in the favour of casino and developer, and not hard to believe it would just be left if it did.
Baron Bloodmore and the Crimson Castle is a perfect example of this. It was released and I got my fair share of bonuses, as did the streamers I watch. Then it was removed from the market for a few weeks. Upon return, it played noticeably different, and I’ve only got one bonus since (although I’ve stopped playing it because of this). Noticed the same behaviour with streamers too. RTP didn’t change, but the hit rate did. It played very differently.
 
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snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Rtp comes into it and could be a factor but my main point was, that my lifetime deposits are £47,330 and in that time, I have lost £9,385.

I really haven’t changed the games I play most, since day 1. My issue is that in the first 6 years, I deposited about £24,000 and lost about £3,000. Then in the 18 months that followed (to get the same game time or less actually), I deposited around £23,000 and lost £6,440. Roughly 25% and I am careful with withdrawals.

That to me, that just reeks of getting stuffed. Why keep playing there? Well because every Casino apart from Unibet (and even they run the nerfed Bonanza), has played exactly the same way pretty much, although my deposits are less.

Imo, that’s one hell of a swing to just write off as bad luck. You cannot be that unlucky so there must be another contributing factor and even allowing for every game running at 2% below the old rtp wouldn’t come close to explaining it.

I am not moaning about the money, it has gone. What I am moaning about is the way in which it was lost. A bit like paying for what looks like a Mercedes on the outside but when it doesn’t perform like one, you find that underneath the shell, it’s a Citroen.

By a few responses on here, some people wouldn’t even question it or ask the dealer any questions. Sorry for being different but life has taught me to question anything that doesn’t seem right.
 

Jono777

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That is why I posted because I have reached the stage, where I can no longer have any confidence in any Casino.

If you could see my gameplay for the last 6 months at all the Casinos I play, then you would see, the stark similarities.

This cannot be down to bad luck, it really can’t. I am not one to question things unless I have good reason to do so.

As for the variance being changed, I will absolutely guarantee you that Bonanza, DHV, Chilli and Millionaire, have all been altered.

Bonanza, to the degree where it’s unrecognisable from the original version. I used to have sessions on that, where I could regularly hit between 5 and 10 bonuses and come away with a decent win.

Now your lucky if you see one bonus in 1,000 spins and when you do it generally pays less than x100.

This is partly why I have posted this because I am done with online slotting. I am walking away from the turgid filthy industry that it has become.

It may not be anytime soon but one day the truth will come out about it all.

Oh YEAH, and I will be sat there with the biggest grin on my face imaginable

EVERY post I make, regardless of subject matter will have the closing sentence "Told you so!".

PS: sorry Dion but you only have to look at the members "reactions" on the posts to see what people truly think ;)

Not a 'pop' but if you want to sling something back my way, go for it, my wings are like a shield of steel!
 
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Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
I have actually given up playing because the slots feel different, it's nigh on impossible to get ahead and game play is sooo predictable.

I do sometimes wonder if bonus buys have something to do with it. In the UK we have to grind it out, whilst everyone else can buy the bonus!

Either that or the slot providers/casino's are raking the money in before they hit and run from the UK.

Take a break Snorks :)
On a lot of games it’s as simple as the bonus buy is needed for the game to be somewhat playable. Bonus frequency has dwindled on most slots as they’ve become more HV, much of the RTP is in those bonuses. If you’re not hitting the bonus with any sort of regularity, you’re busting out. Simple as that.

A lot of the slot’s maths models are just not suited for low rollers anymore and regulators like the UKGC are making the experience worse by banning things like quickspin, auto play and bonus buys.
 

Lemon

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Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Location
UK / Switzerland
I'd like to state that I used to harbour exactly the same thoughts as @snorky510238 - thinking online casinos were rigged in some way.

For weeks on end, if not months I used to lose repeatedly on sites like Sky Vegas, BGO, Rizk, Ladbrokes and so on. Disgusting luck time and time again, and this was in the days before RTP's started getting turned down in the face of increased taxes and harsher operating costs. Sky Vegas was probably the worst - limited range of slots, horrible website, awful promotions, shite customer service.

Then one day I found Videoslots and all my skepticism simply melted away - I just find it hard to actually lose money on VS. Fabulous site - always feel welcome when I play there. I hope my comments have added some balance to this thread.

Thanks for reading! 🍋
 

pinnit2014

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I'd like to state that I used to harbour exactly the same thoughts as @snorky510238 - thinking online casinos were rigged in some way.

For weeks on end, if not months I used to lose repeatedly on sites like Sky Vegas, BGO, Rizk, Ladbrokes and so on. Disgusting luck time and time again, and this was in the days before RTP's started getting turned down in the face of increased taxes and harsher operating costs. Sky Vegas was probably the worst - limited range of slots, horrible website, awful promotions, shite customer service.

Then one day I found Videoslots and all my skepticism simply melted away - I just find it hard to actually lose money on VS. Fabulous site - always feel welcome when I play there. I hope my comments have added some balance to this thread.

Thanks for reading! 🍋
Hard to know whether to resent your VS shilling or, to be honest, quite in awe of it.

I'm still undecided :p

You get welcomed as in: hey, come on in and lose some money on our low RTP slots and you like it? ;-p
 

pinnit2014

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I only argue back when some idiot starts calling me out for something untrue.

But yeah go ahead keep having your digs. Like you have done with several other members in this thread. Or are they all causing it and picking on sweet innocent little you for nothing.

And of course I won't take anything up with staff. Nothing to take up as does not bother me if someone that is obviosy having g a bad day wants to embarrass themselves and act like a complete idiot.

Think staff have better things to do. And unlike yourself I never have or never would wish to PM and tag staff for every minor little thing. Like being at primary school. Please miss Johnny said a bad word.
He's a master in passive aggressiveness

That's when you can actually work out what he is saying. Which is rare, given the commas and such
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
@snorky510238

What you should look at also is what you wagered for the 24k and loss of 3k compared to the 23k and loss of 6k

For example if you had wagered twice as much using the latter 23k then its no surprise mathematically that you lost twice as much, I'm not saying this is or was the case but its something else to look at.

You also have to factor in standard deviation maybe you was just running hotter ( better ) on the first 24k compared to the last 23k you certainly seemed to be running hot on bonanza 2 years ago for sure, as I and many others told you at the time.

I know you say your playing the same games as before but you also say your playing newer BTG slots and there has been some really much HV ones as late so that can also swing your results more violently, so again another potential "difference" to your overall results.

There is just too many variables at play to just accuse VS or any casino of dodgy dealings really, and as others have said if you really think that it is the case then you should do what you have said your going to do many times and just stop playing.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
You can dress it up any way you like but the timescale and money lost dictates something is wrong.

Can’t be bothered checking back but from memory, I said BTG as in Bonanza, DHV and Chilli and some new games. I didn’t say new BTG games, iIrc.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
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@snorky510238

What you should look at also is what you wagered for the 24k and loss of 3k compared to the 23k and loss of 6k

For example if you had wagered twice as much using the latter 23k then its no surprise mathematically that you lost twice as much, I'm not saying this is or was the case but its something else to look at.

You also have to factor in standard deviation maybe you was just running hotter ( better ) on the first 24k compared to the last 23k you certainly seemed to be running hot on bonanza 2 years ago for sure, as I and many others told you at the time.

I know you say your playing the same games as before but you also say your playing newer BTG slots and there has been some really much HV ones as late so that can also swing your results more violently, so again another potential "difference" to your overall results.

There is just too many variables at play to just accuse VS or any casino of dodgy dealings really, and as others have said if you really think that it is the case then you should do what you have said your going to do many times and just stop playing.
Yes, that's another point to remember for slotting - the game could be on 99.9% RTP and you'd still lose everything if you played long enough. Only more slowly. When a player states they wagered say 25k and lost then you need to ask at what point were they ahead, or what point could withdrawals have been made whereby the net RTP figure would have been higher and losses lower. I would call it 'withdrawal efficiency' or 'optimum bankroll management'. Of course, that in itself is speculative as it's always with hindsight a player can say when the best time to quit would have been, because at the time you do withdraw you have no idea if you could have won even more had you continued. So it only comes apparent when continuing leads to busting, then you check the history and game performance. That's why it's called 'gambling'...
 

Lemon

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Serious reply now...probably already been said but I can't be bothered to trawl through the thread...

You should be looking at the amount staked and the amount returned only. You're also playing a lot of high-variance games from which you probably won't achieve anywhere near the stated RTP% in the short-term. You also need to look at the average stakes across the games you've played as a bad run on one slot at higher stakes than normal will skew your results and make them appear worse than they are, cumulatively.

Most importantly you need to realise that you will lose in the long-run, sometimes a lot quicker than normal, if you're unlucky. I'd consider taking a break before suggesting wild theories. You're better than those people...
 

Jono777

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I can't believe the amount of time RTP has been mentioned in this thread

Have I got it wrong OP or are we discussing how the game play is much shitter nowadays than before, regardless of RTP where some games have always had a static unchanged RTP.

It is like pushing shit uphill most days now, games before played better, talking non nerfed games where the payout is the same (or supposed to be :rolleyes:) as it has always been
 

Matti

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I can't believe the amount of time RTP has been mentioned in this thread

Have I got it wrong OP or are we discussing how the game play is much shitter nowadays than before, regardless of RTP where some games have always had a static unchanged RTP.

It is like pushing shit uphill most days now, games before played better, talking non nerfed games where the payout is the same (or supposed to be :rolleyes:) as it has always been
Players nowadays play HV slots and the amounts mentioned in this thread are IMHO(wihout knowing wagering etc) way way to low to be able to make that kind of conclusion the OP has made.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
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Uk
Let’s stop pissing about with fanciful ideas. I have been gambling for 45 years. I am old enough and experienced enough to know when I am being shafted and that is a prime example.
 

Matti

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Let’s stop pissing about with fanciful ideas. I have been gambling for 45 years. I am old enough and experienced enough to know when I am being shafted and that is a prime example.
Well, I think you are wrong and just a tinfoil.

P.S. I’m only 56 and you seem to be much older than I am, since you been gambling for 45 years, so maybe that makes you more wise.
 

Jono777

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Players nowadays play HV slots and the amounts mentioned in this thread are IMHO(wihout knowing wagering etc) way way to low to be able to make that kind of conclusion the OP has made.

But this is not the case

If you play most days for a few years you get a feel of what to expect, win, lose, draw, feature frequency, hit rate, etc etc etc, I could go on for ages.....

Then suddenly 2020 onwards or thereabouts, same games, no reduction in RTP, same deposit frequency, same stakes, same this that and the other BUT, BUT. BUT each and every session does not deliver anything like it used to more and faster bust outs, rarely any game time, again etc etc etc

We are TOLD that nothing has changed but when you have sat at the same traffic lights on the way to work for years and you know they take 60 seconds to change to green, then all of a sudden same traffic lights take twice as long....

Hard to explain over text and on a forum, I TOTALLY get where Snorky is coming from and sadly I think it will take an unblinkered seasoned player to see his point also.

Too many members on here (no offence to anyone at all) have been "conditioned" and even "slots groomed" over the years believing what they read as gospel, the industry is as crooked as a bag full of crooked things, dodgy as fuck and greed, pure GREED has made things go the way they have and it is also GREED which is the backbone in the creation of this thread.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I honestly think it's just down to volatility, games are crazy volatile these days, for any of us who were playing online slots back in the days of the Microgaming Viper casino we'll all remember how amazingly gentle a lot of slots were, I used to make deposits of £100 and play something like The Osbournes on £1 spins and you could get away with it. Even the 'spicy' games of the time such as Thunderstruck are a gentle tickle of the knackers compared to the monstrously volatile horrors that are out there today.

As a couple of people have noted above, without knowing how much snorky has wagered relative to his losses it's impossible to say how bad his numbers are, a combination of playing volatile games and a bad run luck wise (but still within expected results), along with a lot of turnover, could lead to the losses seen. Also of course, playing HV games can be ruinous if you don't hit the upside of them, and IMO with a lot of modern HV games you're drifting into lottery territory for hitting the big stuff, and without that you're just going to be burning money against a load of RTP you'll never realise. (For example as much as I piss and moan about BTG, I'm in lifetime profit with them as a provider thanks to that otherwordly spawn I had on The Final Countdown when I hit a 5698x feature after 24 spins on my first ever session playing the game with real funds - £2,279 from a 40p spin. I suspect the odds on that result are in the long millions to one.)

Also a lot of slots we used to play have simply disappeared, NetEnt for example retire their slots quite aggressively, going back seven or eight years they had loads of sensible volatility games on their books, but it's literally impossible to play them these days, they don't exist.

I still check in at Unibet on a regular basis to look at the new slots that have been released, but I play them in demo mode, not with real funds. The number of games that can slice through 500x stake or more without much of a return is absolutely shocking, the idea that I'd even remotely want to chuck real money at these abominations is pure fantasy.

Ultimately all we can do is vote with our wallets, I don't like HV games at all, so I don't play them, and that fixes it.
 

Matti

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But this is not the case

If you play most days for a few years you get a feel of what to expect, win, lose, draw, feature frequency, hit rate, etc etc etc, I could go on for ages.....

Then suddenly 2020 onwards or thereabouts, same games, no reduction in RTP, same deposit frequency, same stakes, same this that and the other BUT, BUT. BUT each and every session does not deliver anything like it used to more and faster bust outs, rarely any game time, again etc etc etc

We are TOLD that nothing has changed but when you have sat at the same traffic lights on the way to work for years and you know they take 60 seconds to change to green, then all of a sudden same traffic lights take twice as long....

Hard to explain over text and on a forum, I TOTALLY get where Snorky is coming from and sadly I think it will take an unblinkered seasoned player to see his point also.

Too many members on here (no offence to anyone at all) have been "conditioned" and even "slots groomed" over the years believing what they read as gospel, the industry is as crooked as a bag full of crooked things, dodgy as fuck and greed, pure GREED has made things go the way they have and it is also GREED which is the backbone in the creation of this thread.
Whatever I write does not matter. You're obviously convinced that there is foul play. As you say; you have a feel for it..........:rolleyes:
 

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