Denis Becker
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- Jun 24, 2016
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- North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
do you mean "Betway" or the closed one "PKR" ?
Comments Welcome Videoslots: Lower RTP for UK, Sweden, Germany & Others
- Thread starter Nate
- Start date
do you mean "Betway" or the closed one "PKR" ?
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2018
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- Sweden
Do you have a source on the tax thing I mean? That it's on gross instead of net. If so, could you link it? I'd like to read it myself. I only know the Swedish law which is 18% of the net profits they make on the Swedish market. So if you give a bunch of bonuses away or leave it at a standard RTP, you pay less in tax. These extra profits they're making off of Swedish players will mean they pay more taxes.
Let's face it, they just want more money. It's been like this for a month while they've told nobody, somebody from their lawyer team just informed them that swindling is fucking illegal so now they retroactively planted articles back to 7th of February. I'm all for defending casinos when they do things right (or just don't scam people), but this is something that in my book should have them thrown straight into the rogue-pit.
Are you sure?
"Sweden's government proposed on Thursday that the state gambling ... Online gambling firms will pay an 18 percent tax on gross gaming ..."
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All have it like that AFAIK.
Just put "gambling tax gross" and the name of a country on Google
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- Dec 16, 2018
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- Sweden
That's an article from april 2018. Perhaps that was what the original proposition looked like, I don't know. I can assure you that it's net profits though. All official Swedish websites say so.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2018
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- Sweden
Not sure what you mean by "nope", that site neither Swedish nor official..
This is from the official Swedish government website:
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Skattesats och kanalisering
Utredningen föreslår en skattesats på 18 procent på spel på den konkurrensutsatta sektorn. Skattesatsen ska räknas på spelnettot dvs. företagets behållning efter utbetalda vinster.
Translation: The investigation suggests a tax of 18 percent on games. The tax is counted on the game-net+-, ie the company's net+- after paid wins.
In other words: If you pay more wins, you pay less taxes.
It's kind of difficult to even find much official info on it because google is so plagued with affiliate cancer (who also say net wins).
I've found 2 different government sites, both say net and not gross. If you're going to counter this, link something official. What you linked this time sources an affiliate site.
edit: I will also add that you're using a biased and flawed search method. Yes, there has got to be some random affiliate site out there that thinks it's gross and not net. What I googled was gambling law 18 percent (in swedish) and all that comes up is net profits. When I google gambling law 18 percent gross, 2 different affiliate sites pop up claiming it's gross. You aren't going to get accurate information unless you make a neutral search, just sayin'.
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Does this say 2017?
Do you have the gambling act in english? I can find it but it may take some time.
Is everybody an "affiliate"?
Do you have the gambling act in english? I can find it but it may take some time.
Is everybody an "affiliate"?
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- Joined
- Sep 21, 2013
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- currently in US
"I don't know, we don't have that information" = Management doesn't want us to give you that information.
"We just use the default settings" = Our casino specifically chose not to use the highest settings so we just say we use the "default" settings and feign ignorance because that sounds better.
There are a few cases where a support person may be both lacking in knowledge and unwilling to put in the effort to find the answers, but the above is usually true.
The idea that a casino wouldn't have information that is completely fundamental to running their business is so absurd as to be insulting. If a casino is so poorly run that they didn't even consider the decision of which settings to use and said "who cares just use the defaults," and that represents how much thought they put into the rest of their business - that might be even more worrying. I would hope that is a rare case.
Of course, it could be true that some employees don't have access to that information, and as I said above, that's likely since management doesn't want it made available.
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- Joined
- Jun 6, 2013
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So my post that pointed this out in this thread and the newly accredited thread gets no Likes. But your post and others get tonnes of Likes, oh well....
- Joined
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I don't know what to say Dream. You asked a question, I answered to you.
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this was not aimed at you, it was just an observation. Why is it that some posts that say similar things to what I say get tonnes more Likes than the amount I get. You can clearly see that my Like to post ratio is soo low! Yet people with less posts than me have over 1000 likes. But hey it is what it is... People just obviously do not like me on this forum...........
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Here is your well deserved like mate!
It's public forum, and I do not think that you must to pay so much attention to likes / dislikes. In the end of the days, it's just 'likes'
And apart having discussion about really important move from really big casino, we can go for 48 pages of likes/dislikes. No one will win from that.
Enjoy the weekend!
Br,
V.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2004
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- Finland
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2013
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- RJVille UK
I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.
I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.
Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha
I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.
Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2005
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- Sweden
I am not sure how accurate all claims here are in this thread, but increasing profits by increasing margin (reducing rtp) is IMO the worst decision. It has a direct impact on long term loyalty, and only a short term boost in profits. It will definitely hurt them in the long run. The more sensible thing to do is streamline your marketing spend and operational costs.
Regarding the ‘gross’ and ‘net’ discussion; if taxes were to be calculated on turn over (like in France), then sure, reducing rtp makes sense as your tax base decreases while ‘maintaining’ profit (though impacting loyalty). But that is not what gross win means here. Gross win is your profit. Net win is your gross win minus costs (like marketing/supplier revenue share/...). The terms and definitions are not always that obvious so I completely understand the confusion.
Regarding the ‘gross’ and ‘net’ discussion; if taxes were to be calculated on turn over (like in France), then sure, reducing rtp makes sense as your tax base decreases while ‘maintaining’ profit (though impacting loyalty). But that is not what gross win means here. Gross win is your profit. Net win is your gross win minus costs (like marketing/supplier revenue share/...). The terms and definitions are not always that obvious so I completely understand the confusion.
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2011
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- United Kingdom
I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.
I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.
Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha
Really... You do great posts that in some cases are far better than other posts... surely that's in your opinion . You can't assume everyone else thinks the same .Why would anyone even want to or even think of sitting and comparing their posts to other posters to decide on who said it best !
Who cares about likes . You should say what you want to and not worry at all about whether anyone likes the post. As long as you are respectful in your post and got the point across then good job done.
I hope your sore throat gets better .
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2013
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I think that is just in your mind and you are over analysing it.
Remember this is a forum with 'Strangers'. You shouldn't take likes or anything to heart. Who cares what people online think anyways. The real world is the one you see every day.
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- May 8, 2018
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- south east england
I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.
I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.
Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha
I'm newish here, but you seem so enthusiastic that people think your having so much fun, you've got your own unique quirky way. Even this post about likes, I haven't seen anyone ponder this issue publicly before
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- Jun 6, 2013
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- RJVille UK
Thanks me too
I will need to pop out to the pharmacy before it shuts today to get some throat medicine 
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2018
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- The North
You know you pay 21% for Germany but for the Netherlands all casino's are closed. I remember having an account with multiple casino's from L&L, now they don't accept Dutch players anymore. Why? And since when did you close for Dutch players? You don't even have to pay 21% rent if you have a Maltese license and offer games to the Netherlands.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2010
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- doncaster
...
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- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Location
- Bexhill on sea, England
FWIW, I presume you mean the Videoslots thread?
Personally, I honestly have not looked at that thread for YEARS, because it's just too darned big.
Big threads scare me cos they take too long to read = valuable slotting time!
KK
- Joined
- May 23, 2013
- Location
- Tyrone, Ireland
I think it's personally a load of bollocks.
Let's just assume every single slot runs at 96%. Casino's are making £€4 on every £€100 wagered in their casino. They are quiet literally making millions per year of us players. And even with the governments looking for a slice of the pie by increasing taxes, the casino would still be making millions; yet they decide "No, let's continue to make millions off the players and also make them pay for the higher taxes".
Once again it all boils down to the player being shafted again.
I'm actually considering closing my account after this battle weekend is over. Enough is enough. Casino's making millions and charging for deposits and/or withdrawals and all this other bullshit has to stop.
EDIT: Also there goes their "We will always have the highest RTP available" motto
Let's just assume every single slot runs at 96%. Casino's are making £€4 on every £€100 wagered in their casino. They are quiet literally making millions per year of us players. And even with the governments looking for a slice of the pie by increasing taxes, the casino would still be making millions; yet they decide "No, let's continue to make millions off the players and also make them pay for the higher taxes".
Once again it all boils down to the player being shafted again.
I'm actually considering closing my account after this battle weekend is over. Enough is enough. Casino's making millions and charging for deposits and/or withdrawals and all this other bullshit has to stop.
EDIT: Also there goes their "We will always have the highest RTP available" motto
- Joined
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- UK / Switzerland
I would like to think that some of that £€4 per 100 makes its way back to the game providers to be honest, so they can earn revenue from their slots 
And there are loads of other costs that have to come out of that £€4, including operating costs, marketing, and of course, tax. If online casinos made so much money, why do a lot of them end up going down the toilet?
It's a tricky situation for sites like VS. However they absorb those tax increases someone is going to suffer. The UK wants more tax revenue but the UKGCC have implemented rules that stifle the operators' ability to pay those amounts and maintain their profit levels. The profit-margin when operating slots at 96% RTP is razor-thin when you factor everything in. Shaving a couple of percent off the RTP of a fraction of the slots they offer is preferable to them laying off staff or charging for deposits. Yes, the way it has been 'announced' hasn't been to everyone's taste but in all fairness how do you announce bad news like this? There are no real examples to follow. I say VS have felt obligated to mention it somehow without drawing too much attention to it. There's no way to spin something like that into a positive. No-one comes out of it a winner apart from the UK government, who will have extra money to fritter away on running the country into the ground.
And there are loads of other costs that have to come out of that £€4, including operating costs, marketing, and of course, tax. If online casinos made so much money, why do a lot of them end up going down the toilet?
It's a tricky situation for sites like VS. However they absorb those tax increases someone is going to suffer. The UK wants more tax revenue but the UKGCC have implemented rules that stifle the operators' ability to pay those amounts and maintain their profit levels. The profit-margin when operating slots at 96% RTP is razor-thin when you factor everything in. Shaving a couple of percent off the RTP of a fraction of the slots they offer is preferable to them laying off staff or charging for deposits. Yes, the way it has been 'announced' hasn't been to everyone's taste but in all fairness how do you announce bad news like this? There are no real examples to follow. I say VS have felt obligated to mention it somehow without drawing too much attention to it. There's no way to spin something like that into a positive. No-one comes out of it a winner apart from the UK government, who will have extra money to fritter away on running the country into the ground.
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- Jan 26, 2013
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- finland
"They state that Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming currently offer reduced RTP's to their operators and they will be implementing them for Sweden, Germany, Austria, Ireland and the United Kingdom, apparently due to high taxes. " Im from finland and rtp of reactoonz is 94,51....
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I would like to think that some of that £€4 per 100 makes its way back to the game providers to be honest, so they can earn revenue from their slots
And there are loads of other costs that have to come out of that £€4, including operating costs, marketing, and of course, tax. If online casinos made so much money, why do a lot of them end up going down the toilet?
It's a tricky situation for sites like VS. However they absorb those tax increases someone is going to suffer. The UK wants more tax revenue but the UKGCC have implemented rules that stifle the operators' ability to pay those amounts and maintain their profit levels. The profit-margin when operating slots at 96% RTP is razor-thin when you factor everything in. Shaving a couple of percent off the RTP of a fraction of the slots they offer is preferable to them laying off staff or charging for deposits. Yes, the way it has been 'announced' hasn't been to everyone's taste but in all fairness how do you announce bad news like this? There are no real examples to follow. I say VS have felt obligated to mention it somehow without drawing too much attention to it. There's no way to spin something like that into a positive. No-one comes out of it a winner apart from the UK government, who will have extra money to fritter away on running the country into the ground.
As much as I agree, and no company wants to announce bad news, VS's are on here 7 days a week promoting new games etc. Allowing players to play at the lower RTP without informing them is pretty bad tbh. If it was Casumo or LeoVegas then it would still be bad, but at least they aren't on here daily promoting themselves, so they would have the excuse, 'we don't use the forum to announce changes, good or bad'. VS's don't have that as they are on here daily. As for it being posted as 'news' on the site so everyone see's it, it either wasn't there on the date it was said to be posted, or no one reads the news as not one person picked up on it for 2-3 weeks depending on the country you are in, so that is hardly informing everyone.
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FWIW margins are not razor thin, a lot of gaming companies run at 30, 40% margins. So sure taxes will impact that, but taxes also imply new business due to legality, stronger stock value due to stability etc etc. Companies using this as an excuse to lower rtp should not get sympathy from the players, the margins are good enough for other solutions.
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- Dec 16, 2018
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- Sweden
...No, I never said that everybody is an affiliate, where'd you get that from?
And I think the official Swedish government website about the law itself is more reliable than whatever you can find, don't you think?
...No, I never said that everybody is an affiliate, where'd you get that from?
And I think the official Swedish government website about the law itself is more reliable than whatever you can find, don't you think?
I have been unsuccessful in finding the tax part in the government site so far. Can you help?
The doc you posted is one proposal from 2017.
I found one 2018 law about gambling in Swedish but I dont think it says anything about the tax in its 26 pages.
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I linked it to you, here's another Swedish government body, this one from february 2019.
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Spel för allmännyttiga ändamål är fortsatt skattebefriade medan övriga betalar 18 procent skatt på behållningen.
=Charitable games are continuously tax exempt while the rest pay 18 percent tax on the net+-
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That would be the nail in the coffin for me if VS ever went to that route, I don't EVER play at any casino that charge for deposits, withdrawals or both, no player should IMO.
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Would people be happy to have a 1x or 2x on battle wins or is any wagering on battle wins a no no?
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- Jun 6, 2013
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But VS already have a 2.50 charge when you do more than 1 withdraw a day. So for example, the first withdraw every 24 hours is free. But if you do more withdraws in the same day it then incurs a charge of 2.50. I do not agree with them either. But VS still is a great casino. So I kinda do not let it bother me too much as they have other aspects that make it not as painful.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
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- Malta
Except VS. Here are some other companies the recently change RTP as well. Not sure how they communicated it, but maybe some customers here can tell us.
Casino Heroes
Speedy Casino
Ninjacasino
Karamba
Hopa
MrPlay
Goliath Casino
Lucky Dino
More companies will for sure have to go this route, specially on high taxed markets.
Casino Heroes
Speedy Casino
Ninjacasino
Karamba
Hopa
MrPlay
Goliath Casino
Lucky Dino
More companies will for sure have to go this route, specially on high taxed markets.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
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- Sweden
What you haven't realized though is that we rather would have lost some more of what you give as battle tickets, or weekend boosters, or whatever. Just not make us split up, or take away the feeling of having a chance to win.
You made the wrong decision this time!
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
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- Malta
With all respect, and I guess the whole community can notice this, but bonuses are less and less. That's something I'm sure you experience on our end as well.
One thing, I'm happy L&L is not yet mentioned in that topic of shit promotions
And on another note: Imo it's not the introduction of tax, but the increase in costs in order to be compliant that result in less margin for a casino operations.
Kr. Jan
If you reduce bonuses, you are reducing the Return to Players!
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I think you'll find that most of those sites and many others, have always had the lower RTP. So there'd be nothing to communicate.
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- Aug 28, 2016
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- uk
Most bonuses have been reduced to the point of practically worthless to a lowroller anyway, would much rather have best chance of winning big on a slot, than getting a 2x weekend booster reward.
geordiecolin
Sporney eyed parrot faced wazzock
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I do not see many of those casinos on the accredited list. But I wondered how long it would take for the Videoslots backseat rep to turn up to do their bidding
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RTP builds up big wins in most games and reward one player. We at VS think it is better to keep higher bonuses to reward more players and give them longer playing time. That is hard to do when taxes are increasing on some markets so only way to keep bonuses is to reduce RTP in our opionion, that might not be shared among some of our competitors or some of our customers and we respect that feedback.
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- Mar 10, 2015
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VS bonuses are back to as before with new wheel of jackpots, I would even dare to say they are higher
. They are just not given out the same way as before and yes some customers will of course be effected negative by this and others positive. But before others was effected negative and postive.
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Yeah like reverse Robin Hood, take from the poor to give to the rich.
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- Malta
I just answered the ops question.
"Are you aware of other casinos that are running games on the reduced RTP's?"
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- Apr 18, 2009
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- Sweden
It doesn't matter because we all have the same chance. It's the same with bonuses. If you think I am getting the same back as before in rewards or bonuses you are fooling yourself. I and we all have lost a lot that we took for granted before.
We accepted that because we knew you had to save money to be able to keep going. This is not accepted.
I will simply stop playing PNG games because I'm aware now of the change. Sadly not everyone is.
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Which bonus are you referring too?
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- May 22, 2013
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- Cumbria
No, you stated that those casinos had recently changed the RTP, without communicating it to their players
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- Aug 28, 2016
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- uk
Everything for me it seems, the clash of spins might as well not even exist and unless your at a high level the jackpot wheels seem to give me nothing either some 2x weekend booster rewards. On a good week i manage to get £5 cashback so thats a moot point also.
lockinlove
Editing my post so I dont get in trouble
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How accurate is this post because Lucky Dino has always had low rtp settings.
geordiecolin
Sporney eyed parrot faced wazzock
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Videoslots and their backseat rep don't want us to look into things too deeply. This guy is only ever wheeled out in an attempt to quell unrest.
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- Mar 10, 2015
- Location
- Malta
I said I was not sure how it was communicated and said someone else had to answer that.
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