Your Input Please Videoslots: Lower RTP for UK, Sweden, Germany & Others

[Denis Becker]

I have 100% for sure seen German 15% tax levied on at least one operator I work with. Off the top of my head I can't remember which one (pretty sure it's a Microgaming brand) - but I will try to find out...

KK

do you mean "Betway" or the closed one "PKR" ?

 

[xexe]

Various sources, articles, reports and posts here at CM. Latest was the thread about Netherlands regulations.
There are many places with lower RTP. Like Lucky Dino for example. You have to look for the RTP on help files and if it is not there ask.
No GC that I know of forces them to notify players about changes. Some don't even care if the RTP is on the help file.

Do you have a source on the tax thing I mean? That it's on gross instead of net. If so, could you link it? I'd like to read it myself. I only know the Swedish law which is 18% of the net profits they make on the Swedish market. So if you give a bunch of bonuses away or leave it at a standard RTP, you pay less in tax. These extra profits they're making off of Swedish players will mean they pay more taxes.

Let's face it, they just want more money. It's been like this for a month while they've told nobody, somebody from their lawyer team just informed them that swindling is fucking illegal so now they retroactively planted articles back to 7th of February. I'm all for defending casinos when they do things right (or just don't scam people), but this is something that in my book should have them thrown straight into the rogue-pit.

 

[nikantw]

Do you have a source on the tax thing I mean? That it's on gross instead of net. If so, could you link it? I'd like to read it myself. I only know the Swedish law which is 18% of the net profits they make on the Swedish market. .....

Are you sure?
"Sweden's government proposed on Thursday that the state gambling ... Online gambling firms will pay an 18 percent tax on gross gaming ..."

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All have it like that AFAIK.
Just put "gambling tax gross" and the name of a country on Google

 

[xexe]

Are you sure?
"Sweden's government proposed on Thursday that the state gambling ... Online gambling firms will pay an 18 percent tax on gross gaming ..."

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All have it like that AFAIK.
Just put "gambling tax gross" and the name of a country on Google

That's an article from april 2018. Perhaps that was what the original proposition looked like, I don't know. I can assure you that it's net profits though. All official Swedish websites say so.

 

[nikantw]

That's an article from april 2018. Perhaps that was what the original proposition looked like, I don't know. I can assure you that it's net profits though. All official Swedish websites say so.

Nope

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[xexe]

Nope

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Not sure what you mean by "nope", that site neither Swedish nor official..

This is from the official Swedish government website:

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Skattesats och kanalisering
Utredningen föreslår en skattesats på 18 procent på spel på den konkurrensutsatta sektorn. Skattesatsen ska räknas på spelnettot dvs. företagets behållning efter utbetalda vinster.

Translation: The investigation suggests a tax of 18 percent on games. The tax is counted on the game-net+-, ie the company's net+- after paid wins.

In other words: If you pay more wins, you pay less taxes.

It's kind of difficult to even find much official info on it because google is so plagued with affiliate cancer (who also say net wins).

I've found 2 different government sites, both say net and not gross. If you're going to counter this, link something official. What you linked this time sources an affiliate site.

edit: I will also add that you're using a biased and flawed search method. Yes, there has got to be some random affiliate site out there that thinks it's gross and not net. What I googled was gambling law 18 percent (in swedish) and all that comes up is net profits. When I google gambling law 18 percent gross, 2 different affiliate sites pop up claiming it's gross. You aren't going to get accurate information unless you make a neutral search, just sayin'.

 

[nikantw]

Does this say 2017?
Do you have the gambling act in english? I can find it but it may take some time.

Is everybody an "affiliate"?

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[zreb]

Hi Homerbert,

I find it incredible and unbelievable that a business where the entire business model is based upon fixed odds can claim they have no idea what those fixed odds are.

"I don't know, we don't have that information" = Management doesn't want us to give you that information.

"We just use the default settings" = Our casino specifically chose not to use the highest settings so we just say we use the "default" settings and feign ignorance because that sounds better.

There are a few cases where a support person may be both lacking in knowledge and unwilling to put in the effort to find the answers, but the above is usually true.

The idea that a casino wouldn't have information that is completely fundamental to running their business is so absurd as to be insulting. If a casino is so poorly run that they didn't even consider the decision of which settings to use and said "who cares just use the defaults," and that represents how much thought they put into the rest of their business - that might be even more worrying. I would hope that is a rare case.

Of course, it could be true that some employees don't have access to that information, and as I said above, that's likely since management doesn't want it made available.

 

[DreamRJ]

Yes. It would've been the decent thing to do. To their credit, they announced it here and on their site, but emailing affected customers would have been even better. Some casinos don't even show this information on the game help files (if they are not required to).

Lower RTP settings on games for some customers is not fair. Supplying games at the highest available RTP to all customers will be an competitive advantage for casinos that choose to do so.

So my post that pointed this out in this thread and the newly accredited thread gets no Likes. But your post and others get tonnes of Likes, oh well....

 

[ternur]

So my post that pointed this out in this thread and the newly accredited thread gets no Likes. But your post and others get tonnes of Likes, oh well....

I don't know what to say Dream. You asked a question, I answered to you.

 

[DreamRJ]

I don't know what to say Dream. You asked a question, I answered to you.

this was not aimed at you, it was just an observation. Why is it that some posts that say similar things to what I say get tonnes more Likes than the amount I get. You can clearly see that my Like to post ratio is soo low! Yet people with less posts than me have over 1000 likes. But hey it is what it is... People just obviously do not like me on this forum...........

 

[homerbert]

this was not aimed at you, it was just an observation. Why is it that some posts that say similar things to what I say get tonnes more Likes than the amount I get. You can clearly see that my Like to post ratio is soo low! Yet people with less posts than me have over 1000 likes. But hey it is what it is... People just obviously do not like me on this forum...........

Here is your well deserved like mate!

It's public forum, and I do not think that you must to pay so much attention to likes / dislikes. In the end of the days, it's just 'likes'

And apart having discussion about really important move from really big casino, we can go for 48 pages of likes/dislikes. No one will win from that.

Enjoy the weekend!

Br,

V.

 

[ternur]

this was not aimed at you, it was just an observation. Why is it that some posts that say similar things to what I say get tonnes more Likes than the amount I get. You can clearly see that my Like to post ratio is soo low! Yet people with less posts than me have over 1000 likes. But hey it is what it is... People just obviously do not like me on this forum...........

Just liked that post to help get that count up

 

[DreamRJ]

I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.

I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.

Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha

 

[BosjeR]

I am not sure how accurate all claims here are in this thread, but increasing profits by increasing margin (reducing rtp) is IMO the worst decision. It has a direct impact on long term loyalty, and only a short term boost in profits. It will definitely hurt them in the long run. The more sensible thing to do is streamline your marketing spend and operational costs.

Regarding the ‘gross’ and ‘net’ discussion; if taxes were to be calculated on turn over (like in France), then sure, reducing rtp makes sense as your tax base decreases while ‘maintaining’ profit (though impacting loyalty). But that is not what gross win means here. Gross win is your profit. Net win is your gross win minus costs (like marketing/supplier revenue share/...). The terms and definitions are not always that obvious so I completely understand the confusion.

 

[Borgie]

I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.

I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.

Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha

Really... You do great posts that in some cases are far better than other posts... surely that's in your opinion . You can't assume everyone else thinks the same .Why would anyone even want to or even think of sitting and comparing their posts to other posters to decide on who said it best !

Who cares about likes . You should say what you want to and not worry at all about whether anyone likes the post. As long as you are respectful in your post and got the point across then good job done.

I hope your sore throat gets better .

 

[Glassheart]

this was not aimed at you, it was just an observation. Why is it that some posts that say similar things to what I say get tonnes more Likes than the amount I get. You can clearly see that my Like to post ratio is soo low! Yet people with less posts than me have over 1000 likes. But hey it is what it is... People just obviously do not like me on this forum...........

I think that is just in your mind and you are over analysing it.

Remember this is a forum with 'Strangers'. You shouldn't take likes or anything to heart. Who cares what people online think anyways. The real world is the one you see every day.

 

[mack341]

I mean I do not care about Likes. But it is kinda hurtful when I do great posts that are in some cases far better than other posts. Yet my posts get no likes. It is just a strange occurrence? is it my name? is it my profile picture? I really do not know.

I mean if I wanted to be petty I could go through tonnes of my posts and compare them to other posts that are similar or in some cases mine are better. Yet they get tonnes of likes and mine get none. but hey I drop it and leave it here now..... End of discussion. As I said I do not care for the likes anyway. But people do seem to take offence to it when posts get no likes and similar posts get tonnes.

Oh and I also woke up today with a sore throat, so great, I went all winter without a cold/sore throat, and come Spring I then get one. So yeah kinda ughhhh about that too haha

I'm newish here, but you seem so enthusiastic that people think your having so much fun, you've got your own unique quirky way. Even this post about likes, I haven't seen anyone ponder this issue publicly before

 

[DreamRJ]

Really... You do great posts that in some cases are far better than other posts... surely that's in your opinion . You can't assume everyone else thinks the same .Why would anyone even want to or even think of sitting and comparing their posts to other posters to decide on who said it best !

Who cares about likes . You should say what you want to and not worry at all about whether anyone likes the post. As long as you are respectful in your post and got the point across then good job done.

I hope your sore throat gets better .

Thanks me too I will need to pop out to the pharmacy before it shuts today to get some throat medicine

 

[JohnSnow]

As far as I know IGT always been offering 2 or 3 versions of the games, with various RTPs. Nothing new there, up to the operator to pick a game ID and therefore a RTP.
The other providers we don't have, cant say much about it. From all our other providers the RTP is determined on their end, with no options to offer a game with a different RTP.

As for Tax, you can argue to pay tax in Germany or not. We decided to do so to avoid any possible fine in the future. So we pay monthly 21% gaming tax in Germany.

I havent heard anything from other operators that they will be offering this. If a game has an RTP between 95 - 96.8%, I'm more than happy and see now reason to lower it to 92% for example, and to provide a customer in a regulated market a worse gaming experience as customers in countries where we don't have to pay tax? Not going to happen! I just dont think thats fair, and neither social responsible from a operators point of view. So a market is regulated and companies need to pay tax? Lets give the public a lower RTP to compensate for increase in costs? That doesnt fit my style, so wont happen at L&L.

Kr. Jan

You know you pay 21% for Germany but for the Netherlands all casino's are closed. I remember having an account with multiple casino's from L&L, now they don't accept Dutch players anymore. Why? And since when did you close for Dutch players? You don't even have to pay 21% rent if you have a Maltese license and offer games to the Netherlands.

 

[steveh35]

...

 

[KasinoKing]

So my post that pointed this out in this thread and the newly accredited thread gets no Likes. But your post and others get tonnes of Likes, oh well....

FWIW, I presume you mean the Videoslots thread?
Personally, I honestly have not looked at that thread for YEARS, because it's just too darned big.
Big threads scare me cos they take too long to read = valuable slotting time!

KK

 

[Chipkin9]

I think it's personally a load of bollocks.

Let's just assume every single slot runs at 96%. Casino's are making £€4 on every £€100 wagered in their casino. They are quiet literally making millions per year of us players. And even with the governments looking for a slice of the pie by increasing taxes, the casino would still be making millions; yet they decide "No, let's continue to make millions off the players and also make them pay for the higher taxes".

Once again it all boils down to the player being shafted again.

I'm actually considering closing my account after this battle weekend is over. Enough is enough. Casino's making millions and charging for deposits and/or withdrawals and all this other bullshit has to stop.

EDIT: Also there goes their "We will always have the highest RTP available" motto

 

[Lemon]

I would like to think that some of that £€4 per 100 makes its way back to the game providers to be honest, so they can earn revenue from their slots

And there are loads of other costs that have to come out of that £€4, including operating costs, marketing, and of course, tax. If online casinos made so much money, why do a lot of them end up going down the toilet?

It's a tricky situation for sites like VS. However they absorb those tax increases someone is going to suffer. The UK wants more tax revenue but the UKGCC have implemented rules that stifle the operators' ability to pay those amounts and maintain their profit levels. The profit-margin when operating slots at 96% RTP is razor-thin when you factor everything in. Shaving a couple of percent off the RTP of a fraction of the slots they offer is preferable to them laying off staff or charging for deposits. Yes, the way it has been 'announced' hasn't been to everyone's taste but in all fairness how do you announce bad news like this? There are no real examples to follow. I say VS have felt obligated to mention it somehow without drawing too much attention to it. There's no way to spin something like that into a positive. No-one comes out of it a winner apart from the UK government, who will have extra money to fritter away on running the country into the ground.

 

[curremon]

"They state that Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming currently offer reduced RTP's to their operators and they will be implementing them for Sweden, Germany, Austria, Ireland and the United Kingdom, apparently due to high taxes. " Im from finland and rtp of reactoonz is 94,51....