Think of the lottery and your chances of winning - it's the same principle where the number of players playing or the number of tickets bought is irrelevant. It's basically exactly like tossing a coin - "Heads or Tails" which theoretically is 50/50 but you could still get 10 Heads on the spin.
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Transparency In Published Expected Returns (By Game)
- Thread starter Simmo!
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Think of the lottery and your chances of winning - it's the same principle where the number of players playing or the number of tickets bought is irrelevant. It's basically exactly like tossing a coin - "Heads or Tails" which theoretically is 50/50 but you could still get 10 Heads on the spin.
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I have never understood what the fear of publishing theoretical slots returns is? For me it is based on faulty logic - that low paying slots will scare players away. But one look at playing patterns of players will show that it is not the case.
If look at progressive slots for emample you will see players continuing to play after the jackpot has been hit and the game is reset. Take Fruit Mania on Playtech for example. At the reset point which is about 90% you will see a lot of players playing. There will always be a body of players that are happy to play without taking too much care over the RTP numbers. This is because they like the game, maybe don't have a lot of time and perhaps won't play heavily. There will always be this group of players and there must be a lot of them or progressives would never get played on point of reset.
Another huge mistake the industry is making is that they are scaring off a large number of players by not publishing figures. As a player the only softwares I am hapy to play slots on are Wagerworks, MG and Rival. There are Playtech and RTG slots I love to bits but I am fearful of playing them because I have no clear idea of the return I am getting. It's the same with Cryptologic.
It these companies are unwilling to provide clear information the only things I can go on are my own assumptions and stuff gleaned from places like this. Which may or may not be wrong. From what I know Cryptologic is around 91%, Playtech 93% and as already discussed RTG seems to offer this three band payout. Generally speaking WW, MG and Rival fall in the 94 - 96% range AFAIK.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that you will lose money far quicker on a 91% machine than on a 95% machine, all things being equal. But you guys operating at 91% tell me this. How is it going to be more profitible for you when I only have a finite amount of money to lose in the first place? This is what I don't get. You are going to get the money anwyay whether I lose it in twenty minutes or an hour. It's not as though your machines are going to wear out!
So all you software operators out there - get this. Your success and profitibility is not determined by your RTP. It is determined by the attractiveness of your games and the quality of your customer experience. The cash hold is more important than the RTP.
You guys who are not publishing and thinking you are having it away with 91% are in for a surprise. Customers are not fools and they will gravitate to where the fair value is. I would have thought the softwares offering 94-96% are making more profit because they are seeing a lot more action from players.
There is only so much pain us players can tolerate. Those softwares that do not publish - can you blame us for thinking the worst of you?
If look at progressive slots for emample you will see players continuing to play after the jackpot has been hit and the game is reset. Take Fruit Mania on Playtech for example. At the reset point which is about 90% you will see a lot of players playing. There will always be a body of players that are happy to play without taking too much care over the RTP numbers. This is because they like the game, maybe don't have a lot of time and perhaps won't play heavily. There will always be this group of players and there must be a lot of them or progressives would never get played on point of reset.
Another huge mistake the industry is making is that they are scaring off a large number of players by not publishing figures. As a player the only softwares I am hapy to play slots on are Wagerworks, MG and Rival. There are Playtech and RTG slots I love to bits but I am fearful of playing them because I have no clear idea of the return I am getting. It's the same with Cryptologic.
It these companies are unwilling to provide clear information the only things I can go on are my own assumptions and stuff gleaned from places like this. Which may or may not be wrong. From what I know Cryptologic is around 91%, Playtech 93% and as already discussed RTG seems to offer this three band payout. Generally speaking WW, MG and Rival fall in the 94 - 96% range AFAIK.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that you will lose money far quicker on a 91% machine than on a 95% machine, all things being equal. But you guys operating at 91% tell me this. How is it going to be more profitible for you when I only have a finite amount of money to lose in the first place? This is what I don't get. You are going to get the money anwyay whether I lose it in twenty minutes or an hour. It's not as though your machines are going to wear out!
So all you software operators out there - get this. Your success and profitibility is not determined by your RTP. It is determined by the attractiveness of your games and the quality of your customer experience. The cash hold is more important than the RTP.
You guys who are not publishing and thinking you are having it away with 91% are in for a surprise. Customers are not fools and they will gravitate to where the fair value is. I would have thought the softwares offering 94-96% are making more profit because they are seeing a lot more action from players.
There is only so much pain us players can tolerate. Those softwares that do not publish - can you blame us for thinking the worst of you?
My sentiments exactly Diamond. I had 100 in my quicktender a few weeks ago and trying to decide where I wanted to play.
Play at RTG and your bankroll will be gone in a flash
Play at Rival and you'll get decent play time if you bet wisely
Play at MG and you can low roll at 9 cents a spin and hopefully build your bank roll
I put 75 in MG and 25 in rival. I've done this on several occasions and I really don't know why I keep an RTG on my computer..
Playtech I don't know about or is it Wagerworks...either way I haven't played them enough to form an opinion.
Play at RTG and your bankroll will be gone in a flash
Play at Rival and you'll get decent play time if you bet wisely
Play at MG and you can low roll at 9 cents a spin and hopefully build your bank roll
I put 75 in MG and 25 in rival. I've done this on several occasions and I really don't know why I keep an RTG on my computer..
Playtech I don't know about or is it Wagerworks...either way I haven't played them enough to form an opinion.
I am really surprised more people aren't voting and responding to this thread. Maybe you think it is pointless, but what would it hurt to participate just the same.
If we the playing public want to be taken seriously when we have complaints/concerns, then we should be making our voices and numbers heard here as a group because speaking out in separate threads aren't working.
So please give it consideration.
If we the playing public want to be taken seriously when we have complaints/concerns, then we should be making our voices and numbers heard here as a group because speaking out in separate threads aren't working.
So please give it consideration.
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It's partially my fault since I'll usually prompt people to post via the newsletter when an interesting poll appears. I'm in the process of doing that now hoping to get the newsletter out sometime tonight.
FYI, I actually have posted the same (different monthly CP issue) somewhere on the forum.
FTR, Casino Player has a sister magazine, Strictly Slots, that publishes the same. Obviously SS is a more slots oriented magazine dealing with some of the same subject matter in this thread. I specifically recollect an excellent article regarding the myths/fallacies of theoretical return and payback percentages.
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No change of scanning the text of that at some point Nash?
Hi Simmo, I assume (oops) change=chance
. That said I actually do cut out, make copies and save certain articles but most are from Casino Player and pursuant to BJ and important gaming concepts like Money Management (I suck
) or similar. I doubt I cut the subject Strictly Slots article out but still may have the magazine at my crib.I am still staying at a relative's home after my 36 day hospitalization in Oct. and Nov. but I am going to my home t-row for awhile to get some information for my accountants. I will try to locate the magazine and article if possible!
I will also check their website as they use to publish a few articles from each magazine but by no means all the articles. Several months ago when I last checked the website, it basically had become an online gambling portal. (Kinda strange, not only timing wise as they did pull all online advertising from their magazines upon the 2006 passage of UIGEA but iirc have commenced advertising onlines again sometime in 2009!!)
Happy Holidays
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Speaking of which, this week's joke is pretty funny. You should check it outIt's partially my fault since I'll usually prompt people to post via the newsletter when an interesting poll appears. I'm in the process of doing that now hoping to get the newsletter out sometime tonight.
https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/
/derail]
Speaking of which, this week's joke is pretty funny. You should check it out
https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/
/derail]
HAHA. Love it. Grand Prive looking to settle their debts. Classic.
vegetagirl2008
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Speaking of which, this week's joke is pretty funny. You should check it out
https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/
/derail]
Had it on my cell phone read it out load to my co-workers they were dying laughing. They were in tears.
Easy find on the web,Simmo!!
Old / Expired Link EDIT:The link has a mind of its own. If the article does not initially appear,please try refreshing your browser.
"Facts Versus Fiction
Dispelling the myths about theoretical return and payback percentages"
"Frankly, the casinos already have enough suckers pouring their money into games they dont even understandand who spout their wildly inaccurate theories about gambling to anyone who will listen. You wont want to be one of those people!"
By Bill Coleman
"Are you confused by different explanations youve heard about how slot machines actually work? Perhaps youve read various definitions of what theoretical payback percentage means, or different explanations regarding the RNG (Random Number Generator), the computer chip inside every game that determines the outcome of your next spin.
Well, there are two reasons for much of this confusion. First, some of the issues are quite complicated, so writers tend to oversimplify themand sometimes this creates false impressions. Second, it isnt necessary to understand how the machines work in order to enjoy them, or win money.
So why should I bother to write this explanatory article? Because I believe it never hurts to know the facts, especially when youre putting your money on the line. Also, by understanding these aspects of slot play (and reading Strictly Slots every month), youll be able to take pride in the fact that youre an informed, educated player.
Frankly, the casinos already have enough suckers pouring their money into games they dont even understandand who spout their wildly inaccurate theories about gambling to anyone who will listen. You wont want to be one of those people!
I cant tackle all aspects of slot machines in this article, so Ill focus on payback percentagesince this is perhaps the issue that causes the most controversy and confusion. I do want to make clear that this information does not apply to every slot or video poker machine in the country. While most slot and video poker machines in the U.S. work the way this article describes, in some states, the machines that are found in Indian casinosor involved in the state lottery function differently.
Its safe to assume that if youre playing a machine in Nevada, Atlantic City, Mississippi, on a riverboat casino, or in most Indian casinos, the information you are about to read does apply.
Popular Questions About Theoretical Return & Payback Percentage:
What is meant by a slot machines cycle?
Does the cycle guarantee that the machine will pay back exactly what it is supposed to?
What is meant by theoretical return? If this number is only theoretical, doesnt that imply that the machine wont actually return what its supposed to?
The Honest Truth:
Weve all seen neon signs in casinos that say things like, This bank pays 99%! Some people assume these declarations are just flat-out lies designed to lure unsuspecting rubes, but in fact they are the unvarnished truth. They are, however, misleading in many ways.
Slot machines are programmed to return a certain percent of the money wagered over an infinite number of plays. The key part of this is over an infinite number of plays. In reality, after a few million pulls the returns will probably be close to the theoretical return, but not exactly that amount.
Remember the normal or bell curve you came across in high-school math class? Heres a chance to see it in real-world action. Figure 1 (below) says that if you have a machine programmed to return 98 percent of the money put into it, after several million pulls, repeated many times, the actual returns would look like the graph. When you examine the actual return of a machine after millions of pulls, most of the time the return will be between 97.5 percent and 98.5 percent of the theoretical return.
But it also means that, on very rare occasions, the actual returns will be as low as 95.5 percent or as high as 101.5 percent. These results would be highly unlikely and, in fact, a machine or bank of machines showing these results might be considered defective and replaced.
Since these results are unlikely, the natural thing is to look for another explanation. But highly unlikely events do happen every so often; otherwise, no one would ever win the Megabucks jackpot.
Figure 1"-See Below-
"So what does the theoretical return mean to you, the player? The answer is, very little. For one thing, if a bank of slot machines doesnt have a sign declaring its payback percentage, you have no idea what the theoretical return is. And for another, the bell curve only comes into play over the course of millions of spins.
But it still does have its use. If you were to know that a particular machine has a higher theoretical return, youd have a slightly better chance of having your money last longer. Also, some casinos use the theoretical return to calculate your comps and other give-backs, so if you happen to play a low-return machine at least youll get better comps and offers. Still, its important to understand the concept if you want to understand how the machines really work.
So where does the theoretical return come from? To find out, lets return to the days of mechanical slot machines. In those days, each symbol on each reel had exactly the same probability of appearing on the payline as any other symbol.
To see how this works, lets design a simple, incredibly boring slot machine. This machine has only one reel. There are 10 positions or stops on the reel. Five of those stops are blank. One has the jackpot symbol, a pineapple. One has an orange, one a plum, one a watermelon and one a cherry. The symbols and how much they pay if they appear on the payline are shown in Table 1.
Table 1"-See Below-
"If you play 10 times and get each stop, there will be 19 coins returned. This is the machines cycle, which is simply a convenient term to describe every combination of symbols on the reels. It does not mean that the machine is programmed to display each combination of symbols once, and then start over. Remember, the machine does not actually return the theoretical amountbut it will come close.
Anyway, the last thing you need to know about the machine is that it takes two coins to play. If you could play a cycle you would pull the handle 10 times. At two coins per, you would wager 20 coins. As we saw earlier, the cycle pays 19 coins. So 19/20 = 95 percent. Our machine has a theoretical return of 95 percent.
Simple? Certainly. All slot machines that have no progressive jackpot or bonuses can be analyzed exactly the same way. With virtual reels and millions of possible combinations, it takes a computer to make the calculationbut its done exactly the same way.
By the way, the big myth about Random Number Generators (RNGs) is that they are programmed to make sure every possible combination is hit once before repeating. Those who believe this falsehood will also tell you that when a machine hits a big jackpot, it will be a while before it gives up another one. This is not true.
Each spin on a slot machine is a completely independent, random event. Put your superstitions aside and know that your chances of hitting the top prize on your first spin are the same as your chances on your millionth spin. And after winning a jackpot, the odds of winning another jackpot on the next spin are the exact same.
Hopefully youve gained some new insights into the way slot machines work, and what theoretical returns and payback percentages actually meanand how this may impact your next session at the casino. While this information might not give you any strategic advantage, it will make you a more informed player who isnt influenced by silly theories about which games to play, and when you should play (or avoid) certain machines. You can simply concentrate on playing the games you enjoy most."
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felicie
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I am decided now simmo can I change my vote?
Just post it unless you are not comfortable with thatI am decided now simmo can I change my vote?
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While I voted "yes" to the poll, (I was high) since there is no governing body (i.e., The Nevada Gaming Commish, in the case of Las Vegas) to check the accuracy of online slot RTPs, or check the "settings" on any given online slot game to check that the RTP quoted by the operator is even possible, for the slot to achieve as set, who's gonna believe the operators are quoting factual RTPs? And why should anyone believe the operator? Can't the RTP be "adjusted" by operators in RTG's software? What's to keep an operator from "turning down" the RTP on any game on a whim?
Casinomeister.com may not be as quick and convenient as just glancing at the RTP guage on the game screen at one of our O-So-Transparent-Online-Casinos-of-the-Future, but I'd trust the collective opinions of CM members, backed up by a few "Winner's Screenshots" before I'd accept, out of hand, (or out of the side of their neck, most likely) any operator's or software maker's word that the actual RTP on any given game that they'd quote is, indeed, the same return anyone might actually realize playing that game at their site.
Without any oversight, the question of whether or not Online Casinos should be required to "state" the RTPs of their games is absurd if they can't be made to tell the truth.
Still, should "heads-up" RTP displays become, somehow, (death threats? nah! dint work at Guantanamo) mandatory and start being displayed in casino software (like a laugh track on an old sitcom) prominently I wouldn't mind seeing who's claiming what, out there , just so that my "yes!" vote wasn't totally wasted.
Casinomeister.com may not be as quick and convenient as just glancing at the RTP guage on the game screen at one of our O-So-Transparent-Online-Casinos-of-the-Future, but I'd trust the collective opinions of CM members, backed up by a few "Winner's Screenshots" before I'd accept, out of hand, (or out of the side of their neck, most likely) any operator's or software maker's word that the actual RTP on any given game that they'd quote is, indeed, the same return anyone might actually realize playing that game at their site.
Without any oversight, the question of whether or not Online Casinos should be required to "state" the RTPs of their games is absurd if they can't be made to tell the truth.
Still, should "heads-up" RTP displays become, somehow, (death threats? nah! dint work at Guantanamo) mandatory and start being displayed in casino software (like a laugh track on an old sitcom) prominently I wouldn't mind seeing who's claiming what, out there , just so that my "yes!" vote wasn't totally wasted.
You are too smart for that
...Happy Hannukah!!Bottom line is that whatever you decide to do with your money - buy a used car, gamble online, lend it to a friend, whatever - you have to decide whether you are dealing with someone you trust. If you don't trust them, you don't give them your money. It's as simple as that.
I am decided now simmo can I change my vote?
Sure. PM me what you voted and what you want
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You are too smart for that
LOL You almost got it right! What I said was, "I'd trust the collective opinions of CM members, backed up by a few "Winner's Screenshots"...
And a season's greetings to you, too!
Kerching
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No, not in a similar way to WagerWorks or Rival - it should be on the main playing screen, not tucked away at the back of some "rule" page.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if all softwares were forced to do this, then we'd really see some RTG operators squirm!
KK
I wouldn't necessarily say WW tuck it away - in our games it clearly says 'Paytable' on the navigation, which contains all payout information. I have attached a screen shot. I personally dont think this is something we try to hide and if the average Vegas payout is 90%, all of our games are plus that average
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Which is mandated by Alderney BTW - their licensing jurisdiction. US based players are still out of luck on this matter.
Kerching
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Why did you attach a screenshot NOT showing where the payout is located?I wouldn't necessarily say WW tuck it away - in our games it clearly says 'Paytable' on the navigation, which contains all payout information. I have attached a screen shot. I personally dont think this is something we try to hide and if the average Vegas payout is 90%, all of our games are plus that average
You're in the UK aren't you? Go into any pub or bookies with fruit machines and look at the front of the machine; usually very near where you put your money in (and say goodbye to it!) and you'll see a little panel stating what the return on the machine is.
Usually it's somewhere between 70% (no, I'm not kidding!) and 85%.
Does that stop people playing them? I think not.
Of course, you already know that - you work for BarCrest, probably the biggest supplier of fruities in the country!
What's wrong with putting this info on "the front" of online slots?
As you and others are all too keen to point out, your slots returns are MUCH higher than physical machines, so wouldn't this info encourage MORE people to play online at your casino rather than on the bandits?
KK
Kerching
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Why did you attach a screenshot NOT showing where the payout is located?
You're in the UK aren't you? Go into any pub or bookies with fruit machines and look at the front of the machine; usually very near where you put your money in (and say goodbye to it!) and you'll see a little panel stating what the return on the machine is.
Usually it's somewhere between 70% (no, I'm not kidding!) and 85%.
Does that stop people playing them? I think not.
Of course, you already know that - you work for BarCrest, probably the biggest supplier of fruities in the country!
What's wrong with putting this info on "the front" of online slots?
As you and others are all too keen to point out, your slots returns are MUCH higher than physical machines, so wouldn't this info encourage MORE people to play online at your casino rather than on the bandits?
KK
My screen shot showed the in-game navigation which clearly shows the Paytable. This contains all the information a player could need. By attaching this I was trying to illustrate that we in no way hide it away, its a simple click away which is clearly displayed to any interested player
If we are to start featuring minus the click away then its a change that WW will need to implement - and something which will not be a high priority given its already clear to players and their huge games roadmap/development list
Re: your bandit comment, I dont think that the majority of fruity players would ever subsidise them for an online casino, some would see it as an addition. For the majority it wouldnt be a replacement as they provide a different experience.
Why did you attach a screenshot NOT showing where the payout is located?
You're in the UK aren't you? Go into any pub or bookies with fruit machines and look at the front of the machine; usually very near where you put your money in (and say goodbye to it!) and you'll see a little panel stating what the return on the machine is.
Usually it's somewhere between 70% (no, I'm not kidding!) and 85%.
Does that stop people playing them? I think not.
Of course, you already know that - you work for BarCrest, probably the biggest supplier of fruities in the country!
What's wrong with putting this info on "the front" of online slots?
As you and others are all too keen to point out, your slots returns are MUCH higher than physical machines, so wouldn't this info encourage MORE people to play online at your casino rather than on the bandits?
KK
I totally agree with KK, again
. Being a regular player, not being a manager, rep or affiliate, just a gal that likes to play but wants a fair chance, would like to see the realtime RNG posted on the games. I can look at any websters/affiliates sites and see RNG's being flaunted as 97% - 98%, but go to these casinos and these games and the play in my experience isn't even coming up to 70% most of the time. So what would be objectionable about giving the player, your bread and butter a fair and fighting chance, it would only make us more respectful and loyal to a casino that did this than to hide behind the public RNG standard number that never changes.One casino rep had stated in another thread that the RNG was the same today as it was 6 years ago, then we ask why is the play not the same? Like Silcnlayce stated, it takes $100 today to get the same playtime we got for $10 3 years ago, just a good example of expressing what many many of us that have been playing for 9+ years have noticed.
If the actual realtime RNG was posted on the game itself for that game and not as a whole for all games grouped, then we players can make better informed decisions as to where and what we want to spend our money on. If I really like a game and the RNG for that day is low, I still may play because of the games appeal, but I would be playing knowing that it is low instead of feeling constantly like I am just being jacked.
In my opinion any casino platform/owners/managers that would oppose this tells me that you don't want the public to know and are hiding certain facts from us.
In my opinion also, these same above that feel it would be a good and workable idea would forever be held far above the casinos that choose to keep secrets.
It will not affect your bottom line, the money you make from players, in fact transparency in this respect would most likely have you making more money than the ones that continue to keep secrets.
Afterall, players can only be fooled just so long.
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