Transparency In Published Expected Returns (By Game)

Please read first post in thread before voting.

  • Yes, expected returns on individual games should be published

    Votes: 64 87.7%
  • No, expected returns on individual games should not be published

    Votes: 3 4.1%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 6 8.2%

  • Total voters
    73
Status
Not open for further replies.

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Some of you may have been reading this recent thread on game payouts and the potential for changes to be made at an operator level in individual game returns. This is just a preliminary poll to see if the general concensus reflects the feeling that the expected returns of individual games should be published to players in the same, or similar, way to how Wagerworks do it in order to establish an extra level of trust between operators and players in our industry.


Important: Although publically this is an anonymous poll, it has been set up to allow the administrators and moderators to see who voted for which option.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
No, not in a similar way to WagerWorks or Rival - it should be on the main playing screen, not tucked away at the back of some "rule" page.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if all softwares were forced to do this, then we'd really see some RTG operators squirm! :D

KK
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Wouldn't it be fantastic if all softwares were forced to do this, then we'd really see some RTG operators squirm!
That highlights the biggest issue with the idea of implementing ER information. Although clearly it would benefit players, it could benefit (some) software providers and some operators, it does create a degree of inequality which at present is only "perceived" and having it open won't suit everyone.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
I understand what the point of this survey is, and would expect nothing less then 100% in favor of posting returns.

B&M's presently publish monthly all casinos and returns for all the different size slot machines. Yet, when comparing online to B&M's, all online games including table games are actually all slot machines when played online.

While B&M's already post this information it's usually done to lure new players to their casino and hopefully the new player likes the casino and find's a new home. Hard core slot players will follow the best offers with no loyalty to any casino. We also understand that slot players account for most of all casino's income, but land based casinos also offer much more for the gambler then just slot play. I for one enjoy the Taj in AC and treatment I get and could care less about the slots returns.

Online casinos usually offer nothing more then one ridicules bonus more ridicules then another one.

So I think my point is if somehow you were able to get online casinos to post all their returns on all games, they would all be forced to see what the competition is doing and eventually all be the same.

It's not about getting a room and making a weekend of it, it's just about the click of a mouse. Online I could visit 20 casinos in one hour if I wanted.

Although I love the effort of trying to get online to be more legit, I don't see it in anyway possible. Regulation from government is probably the only way this could come about.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
That highlights the biggest issue with the idea of implementing ER information. Although clearly it would benefit players, it could benefit (some) software providers and some operators, it does create a degree of inequality which at present is only "perceived" and having it open won't suit everyone.
I think that's fair comment, and I am curious whether players are generally more likely to be influenced by rewards like SUBs or loyalty incentives, or payout percentages (for clarity I'm assuming that's what we're talking about on each individual game here?).

One would think that publishing this sort of information would encourage more competition for the obvious reason that it may spur laggards to try and match more closely the companies offering the best returns.

As Simmo comments above, that could create resistance in some quarters.

Because industry regulation is so fragmented and patchy, there are probably few jurisdictions that would feel sufficiently motivated to enforce such a requirement, meaning that it would be driven mainly by market forces.

The incentive for 'top' operators would presumably be the chance to get more players at the expense of those with weaker returns, but if some/many operators refused to play ball how would the player be able to make an accurate and meaningful comparison?

And would a refusal to take part in such a scheme motivate players to stop playing at a non-participant?

Finally, would such a requirement direct the flow of inexperienced and new gamblers to operators with the best returns, or would the appeal of an enticing SUB supervene?
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Another (belated) thought: What is the incentive for software providers to cooperate in this scenario? Will they be persuaded by their licensees to assist, because their involvement would appear necessary here?
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
jetset: Another (belated) thought: What is the incentive for software providers to cooperate in this scenario? Will they be persuaded by their licensees to assist, because their involvement would appear necessary here?
None in my opinion...until the players/affiliates/webmasters all come together and demand this..and that isn't going to happen, once again IMO..Too many in the know have income from these places..which leaves the little guy on their own..Just my thoughts...

.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Another (belated) thought: What is the incentive for software providers to cooperate in this scenario? Will they be persuaded by their licensees to assist, because their involvement would appear necessary here?
Actually, I don't see it as much of an issue. It'd probably be just a technological issue instead of a major business decision. Quite a number of casinos publish expected returns of their games - but it's usually an overall total - not specific games.
None in my opinion...until the players/affiliates/webmasters all come together and demand this..and that isn't going to happen, once again IMO..Too many in the know have income from these places..which leaves the little guy on their own..Just my thoughts...

.
I don't think it's going to take a massive cyber movement to convince the right people to look into this. It should not be looked upon as a negative thing - actually, I think it's a cool idea that would benefit both player and operator.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
Actually, I don't see it as much of an issue. It'd probably be just a technological issue instead of a major business decision. QUite a number of casinos publish expected returns of their games - but it's usually an overall total - not specific games.

I don't think it's going to take a massive cyber movement to convince the right people to look into this. It should not be looked upon as a negative thing - actually, I think it's a cool idea that would benefit both player and operator.

Yes! Am I seeing a light at the end of the tunnel? :) Maybe, just maybe........
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Can you please point me to one of these publications.

Thanks.

--Eliot
The Wizard lists the percentages of 5 cent games here
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


the wizard said:
However, the most important decisions to be made are which casino to play in and then which specific machine to play at. To help with casino selection, I refer you to a 2001 survey I did of nickel slot machines in Las Vegas. Granted, it has become somewhat dated, but I think it still makes for a rough guideline. The following list shows, from loosest to tightest, the return of nickel slots based on my small sampling.
 
Last edited:

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Note to self: never play at the Airport in Vegas = 85.02%
 

Eliot Jacobson

Dormant account
Joined
May 9, 2006
Location
Santa Barbara

casinojack

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Location
Costa Rica
No, not in a similar way to WagerWorks or Rival - it should be on the main playing screen, not tucked away at the back of some "rule" page.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if all softwares were forced to do this, then we'd really see some RTG operators squirm! :D

KK
Would be pretty hard to do at the game lobby level, but on the site we, as operators could this much easier then getting RTG involved. The lobby programming is much more time consuming. Maybe walk before we run ?
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
If these figures were published for every game then wouldn't most players simply avoid at all costs the ones that are paying out low. Also the casinos with the largest player base would benefit most from this change as they have more players to pump money in, thus more chances that the bigger prizes will be won which would alter those averages significantly.

Probably would be better to have some kind of compromise, perhaps have figures published for the kind of slots ie 3 reel, 5 reel, 9 line, 15 line etc

Mike
 

Eliot Jacobson

Dormant account
Joined
May 9, 2006
Location
Santa Barbara
In the interest of pointing out reasonable data sources that are available with respect to B&M casinos, Nevada publishes quarterly game statistics:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


However, these statistics are not monthly, are not published by the individual casinos, and do not name specific slot or VP games and their RTPs.

--Eliot
 

Scooter7

Meister Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
In the interest of pointing out reasonable data sources that are available with respect to B&M casinos, Nevada publishes quarterly game statistics:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


However, these statistics are not monthly, are not published by the individual casinos, and do not name specific slot or VP games and their RTPs.

--Eliot
I've seen these reports before and they are excellent references that show the general trends by region and/or coin value.

With respect to the possibility of displaying returns of machines in the online world, I think there is a little bit of confusion. I know that many European land-based casinos must post the theoretical return on their cabinets and some people in this thread are referring to actual payout percentages. While the actual overall payout is significant, I think posting the theoretical value of the machines online is the only thing required. If Millionaires Club or Mega-Millions hits in December, then the payout rate for the machine that month would be a useless value to show. Showing that the theoretical return is 93, 95, 97% etc. is ample information to give the players.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
While the actual overall payout is significant, I think posting the theoretical [return] of the machines online is the only thing required.
Spot on. Thats exactly what this is about - the "expected return" or "theoretical return". :thumbsup:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top