Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[trancemonkey]

This thread IS very valuable and many suggestions and posts left by various users confirm what i already discovered, believed and figured out. I have a very strong feeling that more and more games on the online casino industry are based upon Server sided gaming and no longer 'independent' machine operating. This is what i am seeing as well on the local casino floor. It's no longer really genuine but rather decided by one central computer.

I am a high limit player, see

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for example, and in this 3 years of experience playing slots, i've decided to take a go on the net. I've had a very bad experience with a certain online casino from the UK with payout, i'll leave the ranting aside, and later had some succes with crazy 100 free spins on a 21 euro bet and such. Most of the online casino's are legitimate (luckily) and they simply license their gaming offers from the bigger names such as nettent, WMS and so on.

At some point, the game can be considered very skeptical. You deposit your 200 euro, start playing on a reasonable bet, just nothing happens, and the action often starts to begin when your almost out of your money. Here comes that build in excitement, you either win (often close to what you deposit) or you lose it all. When you win it's often the simular song, there's no frigging way to get over the amount of money you deposited. When you lose and deposit another 200 again, suddenly there's that bonus or feature you've bin playing for. And it leaves you basicly still at your 400 mark. Here comes the frustation, your starting to bet bigger hoping that one good bonus might overcome this. Nada.

At some point i litterally deposited a 1000 euro to finally get on top with 1600. And from there booted it up to 11k, from where i found myself very limited in EVERY game i played from there on. The lag was enormous, like the server on the other side HAD TO VERIFY each bet and gameplay i did. Every game is / was cold basicly. The moment you start withdrawling, your somehow flagged, and it takes alot of time as other players in here stated, to even have a normal game. Your losing bigtime.

This is the server sided thing i am talking about. They track player ID's and know exactly what you've done. On a normal machine without any knowledge on who's playing, this woud'nt proberly happen in the first place. I see this same thing going on at my local casino. For example, we have a block with 8 slots. There's like 6 people playing and i'm the only big player in between. I'm betting from 10 up to 30 a spin. I'm losing. And everyone in the same block is 'suddenly' winning. Like my losses are being redistributed among the other players and i'm not even having one single chance.

Another example, i toss in a bill of 500 into a machine, and start playing. After 3 spins it immidiatly gives out 390 plus in prize, and sticks me with 850 euro which means a 350 plus profit right. After that, it's boom, completely done. It's like already telling me take this and dont come back lol. Does'nt matter if i toss another 500 bill onto the machine, it's not happening. When i am looking for the technology behind server sided gamging, the main reason for this is that machines could no longer be exploited or 'hacked' as they say.

This means that the actual RNG is no longer being done on the game itself but decided by the server sided gaming platform if i'm not mistaken. This also clarifies the 'exploiting' of any game in general that it no longer could be abused by those who really pound the slots bigtime (and cause the casino a financial issue). Back in the days (i'm talking 15 ~ 8 months ago) i could easily slam jackpots of over 4k in my local casino. Right now i really need to work to get to 800 up to 1500 and if i'm lucky get the very same thing again, but defenily kill the slot from there on. Other slots i try with for example my player card, wont work.

If i'd play without my card, the thing starts working again. I'm pretty sure that the system used your ID stored into your players card and somehow manages to skimp you out. Why would this be any different online onto slots? I can relate to the fact that a big player like me can rape a few slots in just a few hours, and leave them cold for the rest of the players for a few days from there on. They changed it in such a matter that everyone would simply stand a chance and the big players actually paying a greater loss.

When you click on any game's info tab, there's usually a small line where a single spin could be limited to xxx.xxx amount of payout. So technically, they have it build in to limit a game or bonus on a certain amount of bet / payout. It can be used against players in favour of the casino, i'm very sure of this. It's also very unartificial that when you start hitting 40 euro a spin, just nothing works out. They DO offer bets from some games all the way up to 500 euro ONLINE but hardly any feedback from this here.

I woud'nt say that gambling is rigged, but surely and defenitly handicapped. I see the same trend going on into my local casino.

I'd love to answer all your points individually but it would take far too long... Most of what you talk about here is covered in my AMA thread.

I'm sure I won't change your mind but all I can say is they certainly don't operate how you think they do... The simple fact is this: big wins are rare and slots are designed so the house has an edge. So, if you somehow luckily manage to get up a large amount t of money of course at some point statistically speaking your luck will flatten out or dip and you will lose. That's not some central server or compensator or stabiliser or whatever, that's just the nature of the beast.

And don't fall in to the whole "player card tracking" conspiracy - although it's easy to see why people do - for a start it's illegal in every jurisdiction in the world worth its salt and secondly it makes no sense to do it anyway... Why would we want to give you a worse experience than my anonymous? Most companies REWARD loyal customers but your suggestion would be that casinos penalise you?

Also I will swear on my kids lives that as someone who is very involved in casino game software we do NOT change the game based on player card, previous play, time, day of the week, colour of your underpants, length of your hair, the last time you had a shit or whether your mother-in-law is a bitch.

I have a feeling you won't believe me because personal experience is hard to dissuade... It's why some people believe the world is flat even though that's quite obviously absurd.

TM

 

[Jono777]

You still here after all this time TM? - I admire your determination lol.

Any one actually accepted that slots are random yet matey?

 

[greylady]

You still here after all this time TM? - I admire your determination lol.

Any one actually accepted that slots are random yet matey?

Not me

 

[Bloatgoat]

I'd love to answer all your points individually but it would take far too long... Most of what you talk about here is covered in my AMA thread.

I'm sure I won't change your mind but all I can say is they certainly don't operate how you think they do... The simple fact is this: big wins are rare and slots are designed so the house has an edge. So, if you somehow luckily manage to get up a large amount t of money of course at some point statistically speaking your luck will flatten out or dip and you will lose. That's not some central server or compensator or stabiliser or whatever, that's just the nature of the beast.

And don't fall in to the whole "player card tracking" conspiracy - although it's easy to see why people do - for a start it's illegal in every jurisdiction in the world worth its salt and secondly it makes no sense to do it anyway... Why would we want to give you a worse experience than my anonymous? Most companies REWARD loyal customers but your suggestion would be that casinos penalise you?

Also I will swear on my kids lives that as someone who is very involved in casino game software we do NOT change the game based on player card, previous play, time, day of the week, colour of your underpants, length of your hair, the last time you had a shit or whether your mother-in-law is a bitch.

I have a feeling you won't believe me because personal experience is hard to dissuade... It's why some people believe the world is flat even though that's quite obviously absurd.

TM

You where the whole reason i've signed up to this forums. I've readed the complete thread with all Q&A's from players and your view / standpoint as a game designer. Even tho as much as i like to believe you, there's always an house edge, and there's always ways to prevent players from winning too big or simply find a reason to not payout the amount of money. It's listed on every game, here's an example:

This means that the technology is there to limit a single game / win to a certain amount of money. Everything on top of that proberly gets ditched. But it's in there, and that's the point. RNG is always within set parameters. How can something be genuine "Random" while there are Parameters such as 95%? Or that a machine or slot cant exceed a certain amount of payout? We have all these casino's slamming on the genuine RNG thing but nobody seems to understand that a RNG within set parameters is never really random. Some outcomes can be favoured to the casino, that simple.

I play for more then 3 years in my landbased casino,



I've won very good at some points leaving the casino with over 17k of cash. But i'm very certain that that bubble has stopped recently as it's very hard these days to get above 2k a jackpot. I can relate to the casino spreading out multiple smaller handpays rather then one large phat one. Simular as online play. The RNG seems to change or at least is adjusted the moment you switch your bets.

So how does a RNG within parameters actually looks like? I am very curious from a technical point of view. Does it alter such outcome ? Ofcourse any machine on any type of casino should bring profit on the long run. It's what they get the most revenue from anyway.

Edit: and if i compare the landbased casino RTP's vs the online RTP i'm pretty sure we have 2 different things going on. Landbased vary's from 85% up to 92% and online is usually 94% up to 97% depending on game. But i can be very sure that landbased is more 'stable' and somehow guaranteed that if i would dump 1500 into the machine, at some point i would come back close to even if i woud'nt won. Online is a complete different story. You could actually lose all of that, no matter your gameplay or tactic.

That's the most frustrating out of online play. You just dont know when it's coming. It's bullshit if you ask me.

 

[Red Rake Gaming]

Edit: and if i compare the landbased casino RTP's vs the online RTP i'm pretty sure we have 2 different things going on. Landbased vary's from 85% up to 92% and online is usually 94% up to 97% depending on game. But i can be very sure that landbased is more 'stable' and somehow guaranteed that if i would dump 1500 into the machine, at some point i would come back close to even if i woud'nt won. Online is a complete different story. You could actually lose all of that, no matter your gameplay or tactic.

That's the most frustrating out of online play. You just dont know when it's coming. It's bullshit if you ask me.

That's the best thing about online play for me, that you don't know what it's coming.

The other thing that makes online play better IMO is that RTP is 7%-10% higher that in landbased play.

Online play outcome is randomly decided while landbased is compensated, so it's normal you feel landbased is more stable.

Have you tried low volatile online slots?

You would have a much lesser chance of hitting something big in those, but your balance would be more stable and last longer.

Best regards.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Online play outcome is randomly decided while landbased is compensated, so it's normal you feel landbased is more stable.

This might be true, but again, i had far more luck into a landbased casino (i.e Amsterdam) then online play. If you then compare the RTP numbers together then i would say Online is just worse compared to landbased. This after 3 years experience. I could dream some slots actually. Know exactly when they are coming and often know exactly which buttons to press.

This, i cant say for online. Again, you dump 200, nothing. You dump another 200, oh hey bonus, your set back to 380 on avg, you keep on playing and lose it again. Your playing for it to come, that's why we play and thats why on avg i know having a large bankroll is very important. But again online seems much more frustrating then landbased.

The thing i hate the most about online play is this: you win a 1000, but you dont have any sense of it. It takes 48 hours minimum (excluding the weekends) to withdrawl. In a landbased casino they instant pay you without any tax or other bullshit. You leave and thats it. Tax is another issue online as well.

So i'd still go for landbased. More likely as a VIP i park for free, i get my food for free, and all (alcoholic) drinks are for free. And by default as a VIP i'm greeted by staff by default. You just get that little more compared to online again.

BUT! The thing they both have in common; RTP, TRTP, Server sided gaming, and alot of other features to track players, their play behaviour and all. And base their slot experience around that.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Randomness with red or black or heads or tails can look crazy and rigged like you think black must be coming now after 5 reds in a row and yet the next spin is still a red.. so if a fair game with only 2 outcomes can look like it's rigged then imagine how unrandom a slot can look when it has 1000s of outcomes ranging from zero to massive wins . The higher the possible payouts and volatility then the more intensely "unrandom" series of events you are going to see (of course this is still random it's just that the human mind looks for patterns and in a common idea of randomness it is believed there should be no patterns ) Plus like Dunover said - you remember the "patterns" and can easily believe that these "patterns" happen more frequently than the "random" spins

Another thing is the slot is designed for you to lose because it has an rtp of <100% . So when randomness occurs around a central figure of already losing i.e 96% return then the deviation due to randomness means you are going to see more periods of losing heavily than you are going to see periods of winning big . For example on a slot with 50% rtp you would see a lot of play where you got zero back and your "winning streaks" would just be getting your money back i.e 100% rtp . So on this slot it would feel totally rigged because you'd never actually WIN . The best you would do is breakeven for a while

 

[goatwack]

Everyone knows slots are random......within a pre-determined, rigged set of parameters.

Hence the inexplicable lead-balloon turnarounds that happen usually in or around when the game has you 'hooked' with a couple of smaller wins

 

[trancemonkey]

You where the whole reason i've signed up to this forums. I've readed the complete thread with all Q&A's from players and your view / standpoint as a game designer. Even tho as much as i like to believe you, there's always an house edge, and there's always ways to prevent players from winning too big or simply find a reason to not payout the amount of money. It's listed on every game, here's an example:

This means that the technology is there to limit a single game / win to a certain amount of money. Everything on top of that proberly gets ditched. But it's in there, and that's the point. RNG is always within set parameters. How can something be genuine "Random" while there are Parameters such as 95%? Or that a machine or slot cant exceed a certain amount of payout? We have all these casino's slamming on the genuine RNG thing but nobody seems to understand that a RNG within set parameters is never really random. Some outcomes can be favoured to the casino, that simple.

I play for more then 3 years in my landbased casino,



I've won very good at some points leaving the casino with over 17k of cash. But i'm very certain that that bubble has stopped recently as it's very hard these days to get above 2k a jackpot. I can relate to the casino spreading out multiple smaller handpays rather then one large phat one. Simular as online play. The RNG seems to change or at least is adjusted the moment you switch your bets.

So how does a RNG within parameters actually looks like? I am very curious from a technical point of view. Does it alter such outcome ? Ofcourse any machine on any type of casino should bring profit on the long run. It's what they get the most revenue from anyway.

Edit: and if i compare the landbased casino RTP's vs the online RTP i'm pretty sure we have 2 different things going on. Landbased vary's from 85% up to 92% and online is usually 94% up to 97% depending on game. But i can be very sure that landbased is more 'stable' and somehow guaranteed that if i would dump 1500 into the machine, at some point i would come back close to even if i woud'nt won. Online is a complete different story. You could actually lose all of that, no matter your gameplay or tactic.

That's the most frustrating out of online play. You just dont know when it's coming. It's bullshit if you ask me.

It's explained in my thread about how an RNG can hit a percentage... and also how "random" slots work... don't be confused between a "random" outcome (i.e everything being equal) and a random decision.

Here's a simple example. Roll a 6 sided dice with numbers 1 to 6 on it. Each number has an equal chance and if you roll it it's random right? So if you roll a 6 i give you $5, and any other number, you give me $1. The payout is 83.333% in this case.

Now, if you have a 100 sided dice, and there is only numbers 1 to 6 on it, but the number 6 only appears 5 times, the roll of the dice is still random, but the number 6 now has much less chance of appearing... and this is basically how slots work. Not every outcome is equal. Every outcome is POSSIBLE, but it's not an even chance. And we change the chance of the outcomes happening to alter the RTP (which is a factor of paytable, frequencies of stuff happening, etc..).

Also, the cap of $250,000 is the operator, not the game... They choose their max liability - so the game could pay $300,000 but the operator will only pay you $250,000. The excess is "lost" to the operator. As far as the game is concerned, it paid $300,000. The game has no knowledge of the cap.

 

[Bloatgoat]

It's explained in my thread about how an RNG can hit a percentage... and also how "random" slots work... don't be confused between a "random" outcome (i.e everything being equal) and a random decision.

Here's a simple example. Roll a 6 sided dice with numbers 1 to 6 on it. Each number has an equal chance and if you roll it it's random right? So if you roll a 6 i give you $5, and any other number, you give me $1. The payout is 83.333% in this case.

Now, if you have a 100 sided dice, and there is only numbers 1 to 6 on it, but the number 6 only appears 5 times, the roll of the dice is still random, but the number 6 now has much less chance of appearing... and this is basically how slots work. Not every outcome is equal. Every outcome is POSSIBLE, but it's not an even chance. And we change the chance of the outcomes happening to alter the RTP (which is a factor of paytable, frequencies of stuff happening, etc..).

Also, the cap of $250,000 is the operator, not the game... They choose their max liability - so the game could pay $300,000 but the operator will only pay you $250,000. The excess is "lost" to the operator. As far as the game is concerned, it paid $300,000. The game has no knowledge of the cap.

Sounds legit,

But how come after tossing in on 1500 online nothing really happens except a waste of time + the loss? If i would play with 1500 on landbased i could guarantee you a profit within less then 20 minutes, trust me. Is it true that wins are bounded to player ID's? It's what you hear often, after withdrawl, everything seems cold for a while.

 

[trancemonkey]

That's the best thing about online play for me, that you don't know what it's coming.

The other thing that makes online play better IMO is that RTP is 7%-10% higher that in landbased play.

Online play outcome is randomly decided while landbased is compensated, so it's normal you feel landbased is more stable.

Have you tried low volatile online slots?

You would have a much lesser chance of hitting something big in those, but your balance would be more stable and last longer.

Best regards.

It worries me that someone from the industry can be that wrong...

In the UK, land-based CAN be compensated (the categories that can be are Category B3, B4, C and D-complex) but in terms of B3 games, most (but not all) are NOT compensated, and those that are must display "THIS GAME IS COMPENSATED AND MAY BE AFFECTED BY PREVIOUS PLAY" or words to that effect...

Some old Barcrest games are (very loosely compensated) and Project Coin games are - i can't think of any others off the top of my head. However, it will tell you on the loading screen and / or the top screen.

B2 games can NOT be compensated

 

[Red Rake Gaming]

It worries me that someone from the industry can be that wrong...

In the UK, land-based CAN be compensated (the categories that can be are Category B3, B4, C and D-complex) but in terms of B3 games, most (but not all) are NOT compensated, and those that are must display "THIS GAME IS COMPENSATED AND MAY BE AFFECTED BY PREVIOUS PLAY" or words to that effect...

Some old Barcrest games are (very loosely compensated) and Project Coin games are - i can't think of any others off the top of my head. However, it will tell you on the loading screen and / or the top screen.

B2 games can NOT be compensated

Many thanks for this insight on the UK land-based industry.

But please don't be worried because although I work in the industry I was talking about my personal experience. I live in Spain and here most of land-based machines are compensated, hence my prior post about prefering online gaming and its randomness over compensated land-based gaming.

My mistake though assuming the person I quoted (from Netherlands) plays compensated land-based machines.

Best regards.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Yeah, well. I am done with online play basicly. It stinks. 100%. I tossed in over a complete salary (no worry's, i can take it) and gained simple nothing. It's like you win something and have zero to none chance to upp it up on any other different game. The only thing it's doing is eat your money (6k) and blead you dry. If games where genuine random, then i would technically stand a chance upon various slot games. I would have somewhere took a win but it did not happen at all.

This makes me believe as well that playing online is actually controlled, and players cannot exceed a certain amount of win or winning gameplay. This was very simular a few months ago when my winnings where sticking at 11k but no chance to even upp this. From there on it's a simple downward spiral. Online gaming is ..... within the rules of the casino. Some do play some more fair then others. But i dont believe that every spin is 'genuine' random. As a game designer yes, it is a different approach. But the RNG is and cannot be genuine random if there are certain rules such as "95%" RTP or 95% TRTP and so on.

I was at the land based casino again. Here ya go, 6k profit in just 3 hours. It was a rush. Happend to FINALLY have a bonus game on 60 euro bet on landbased casino. Result was .... mweh. But it still was a good thrill and i left at the very right moment. So if people are wondering when online slots are genuine, real, fair etc. I play for over 3 years as a high limit player in land based casino's. I can tell after depositting a STINKLOAD of money that online slots are simply no good. You may disagree, go ahead.



Ofcourse someone who works in the industry tells you otherwise. They are constantly looking for new games that will keep the players playing. And playing players are a goldmine for any stupid casino. Dont let yourself be fooled.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Online play is no fun in my opinion. Esp. the games that are a rip-off of the original slot is not even close to the actual gameplay you experience into a landbased casino. Some spins are very very odd and what is supposed to happen is happening the other thing on the spectrum. It's very weird as well that at night nothing really happens and in the morning it's all bonusses and wins. It makes me think that the game providers have some sort of lock going on in the middle of the night. We see this type of stuff in landbased casino's as well. Some slots at some time's you defenitly should avoid.

I know people who gamble themself to pieces. People who litterally spend almost 24 hours a day gambling online, use dopamine's to stay awake and sometimes win a few 10 up to 20k's. But it was calculated that the guy who was doing this tossed in over a 300.000 grand (euro's) in the last 3 years, and had a net loss of over 200k. I still believe that games are not random. You might toss in a 100, get just one bonus, and any fun ends there. It does'nt matter what you do, how you do it or what your tactic is. It's already calculated for you. Now how 'random' and 'genuine' does that sound for any of you?

People's losses are widely distributed over a variaty of players who are playing online. If you like slots, play the real thing. Stop depositting money on the net. It's a myth that you get a better chance 'because more players are online involved then landbased'. It's also a myth that the more you deposit the better your chances are. Your chances are still the same (bad). It's still the greedy old casino. I got banned for making my point into another casino. They are only interested in keeping the players playing and not those who doubt the used system.

I know they build in safety features for the casino to stop games from being exploited. Fair enough. But looking at my deposit history, and the chances i actually had of winning, it's a sad story. The only ones who are gaining from playing casino's are the ones who dont play or simply withdrawl after being in the plus. It takes discipline and money control to work on that.

The succes story's of people winning up to 5 to 6 numbers are rare. It woud'nt suprise me if a casino is actually paying a marketeer to promote such bullshit. It's a big money business and everyone wants a piece of it. Marketing is very aggressive these days. And also, when you close your account or get your account suspended for whatever (bs) reason, they are actually selling out your email adress for new providers to make you offers.

How do i know this? I registered with a private email adres, just for these purposes on my own domain. A week right after my account was closed, i'd get offers from other casino's. How in the world would they know which email adres to target? That was a genuine email as well eh? Ah well. I hope i can help other people with my post to simply quit playing online. These casino's use tactics and thus their game providers which are unnatural and very artificial. Nobody gets ahead on the long run.

Their only interest is to keep you playing and win barely enough to keep you going. Think about it.

 

[trancemonkey]

Online play is no fun in my opinion. Esp. the games that are a rip-off of the original slot is not even close to the actual gameplay you experience into a landbased casino. Some spins are very very odd and what is supposed to happen is happening the other thing on the spectrum. It's very weird as well that at night nothing really happens and in the morning it's all bonusses and wins. It makes me think that the game providers have some sort of lock going on in the middle of the night. We see this type of stuff in landbased casino's as well. Some slots at some time's you defenitly should avoid.

I know people who gamble themself to pieces. People who litterally spend almost 24 hours a day gambling online, use dopamine's to stay awake and sometimes win a few 10 up to 20k's. But it was calculated that the guy who was doing this tossed in over a 300.000 grand (euro's) in the last 3 years, and had a net loss of over 200k. I still believe that games are not random. You might toss in a 100, get just one bonus, and any fun ends there. It does'nt matter what you do, how you do it or what your tactic is. It's already calculated for you. Now how 'random' and 'genuine' does that sound for any of you?

People's losses are widely distributed over a variaty of players who are playing online. If you like slots, play the real thing. Stop depositting money on the net. It's a myth that you get a better chance 'because more players are online involved then landbased'. It's also a myth that the more you deposit the better your chances are. Your chances are still the same (bad). It's still the greedy old casino. I got banned for making my point into another casino. They are only interested in keeping the players playing and not those who doubt the used system.

I know they build in safety features for the casino to stop games from being exploited. Fair enough. But looking at my deposit history, and the chances i actually had of winning, it's a sad story. The only ones who are gaining from playing casino's are the ones who dont play or simply withdrawl after being in the plus. It takes discipline and money control to work on that.

The succes story's of people winning up to 5 to 6 numbers are rare. It woud'nt suprise me if a casino is actually paying a marketeer to promote such bullshit. It's a big money business and everyone wants a piece of it. Marketing is very aggressive these days. And also, when you close your account or get your account suspended for whatever (bs) reason, they are actually selling out your email adress for new providers to make you offers.

How do i know this? I registered with a private email adres, just for these purposes on my own domain. A week right after my account was closed, i'd get offers from other casino's. How in the world would they know which email adres to target? That was a genuine email as well eh? Ah well. I hope i can help other people with my post to simply quit playing online. These casino's use tactics and thus their game providers which are unnatural and very artificial. Nobody gets ahead on the long run.

Their only interest is to keep you playing and win barely enough to keep you going. Think about it.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do... Online games do tend to have quite different maths to land based games - even the same games can have different maths when you compare land-based to online. They aren't controlled other than by pure statistics - but as I said if you feel they are then it's a very very difficult thing to convince you they aren't - perception is everything.

With regards to email - if you use Gmail, there is a clever tip you can use...

When you sign up to somewhere with a Gmail account you can add some text to the address to identify the sender. For example, if your Gmail address is bloatgoat@gmail.com and you sign up to dogdgycasino.com, if you put your email address in as bloatgoat+dodgycasino@gmail.com, Gmail will ignore everything after (and including) the + sign... But when you receive the email from crapcasino.com and the address they sent it to is bloatgoat+dodgycasino@gmail.com then you know who gave your email address away. Very few sites stop you adding the + stuff in the email address...

 

[Bloatgoat]

False perception:



I've pressed alot of buttons to know this is not genuine, random or whatever you'd call it. It's managed, controlled, a build in feature to suck out your money. Proberly a design feature as well. Strategy does'nt matter. I feel very confident that the moment i start playing it's like already decided what is going to happen. I am sure that many of us in here could relate to the above.

If it was me i'd burn every online casino with their advertised bullshit, cause it's simply NOT TRUE. There are too many factors and overhead in between (a game is often licenced from a game provider) that could offer you a fair chance. The casino who promotes the games wants a percentage as well. So your 95% is proberly a lower number in the end.

Nobody knows exactly whats going on behind a game in general. If i'm correct you design a game, with rheels, with a basic RNG, and every spin should generate a 'fair' outcome, with respect of a RTP / TRTP, otherwise the slot you deliver would generate a loss on the longer term and thus not making money for the casino. So there are certain features build in that would ensure the above. I am confident as well that the software would protect the game provider & casino for any financial loss, that for example, a game could not exceed a certain amount of money or that anyone depositting 10$ would magicly click this into 10.000 and clicks withdrawl with any method of play.

It's designed to keep you playing. It's designed like keeping a addict an addict. If he haves any doubt to step out or quit, the casino has their ways to keep players in. We are not stupid. The net is full of information related to this thread, slot design and keeping playing simply playing. Because playing on the long run will grant the casino that profit they are after. It's where the real money is being made. So they design the game in a very slow matter. And often throw symbols that are 'almost' a near big hit, to keep you playing.

I am sorry but i have much more fun going into a landbased casino then online. People should make a thread for "myths" as well, because alot of false information is being spread, such as "World wide players > more chance to win" and such. Look man, i have a VIP status not for nothing. And there are a very few amount of people who actually have that card here in our landbased casino.

And it grants many rights and a much better service anyway then online. I once had a VIP relation manager online and her only goal was to keep me playing, happy and such. But i got stuck on the same online pattern, bullshit, nonsense and build in features that it was best for me to stop playing online. I'd advise people to do the very same thing.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I think it's safe to say, that the RNG is merely based upon the actual bets vs wins vs money depositted vs wins.



This does'nt show my deposit vs actual wins. And i think here's the problem. Always after your losing a pretty amount of money after a ten times of clicks, it starts to compensate small number to get as close to the advertised RTP, but you still have a loss even if it was 100% rtp for example.

This is the thing that bothers me the most out of online casino. I woud'nt say it's fraud in the first place, but it's unfair to calculate the RTP / TRTP on these numbers rather then what goes in vs what goes out. Catch my point, mister slot designer? You know exactly what i mean with the above.

The gaming provider can show on numbers, look, our 'games' are genuine blablabla and these are the results of various tests and gameplay. But the harsh reality is that it eats way more money then it spits out.

The business is corrupt. The license providers only care about money and give a rats ass if games are technically rigged or not. I'm pretty much close to what that system is about, considering the amounts of hours i (wasted) playing. And then we have the 'lock' that appears after a while of playing, you simply lose it all no matter what tactic, switching of games, cause they know, people want to chase back their losses.

And here is where they start making pretty much huge gains. And by numbers, simply show the crowd that again, our systems are perfectly fine, honest, genuine, random and such. They are complete assholes, i'm sorry to express this this way.

 

[slot_zombie]

Interesting point about retained % vs RTP %, but that applies equally to land based games.

I was watching a member of staff audit a Project Mega Bars once in an arcade, and the retained % was a shocking 50% even though the RTP was 90%. The effect of recycling wins....

 

[Bloatgoat]

Interesting point about retained % vs RTP %, but that applies equally to land based games.

I was watching a member of staff audit a Project Mega Bars once in an arcade, and the retained % was a shocking 50% even though the RTP was 90%. The effect of recycling wins....

This. Everybody believes that a 95% RTP online should be a succes to winning. Well in practice it's not and it's far from a 'fair chance'. My above screenshot states a very good point that after 7 hours of playing (i tried to hit ABOVE 10k) the party was over after a while, and it simply started to compensate me to get as close to those numbers. But you lose much harder in reality.

As i said before, land based casino's are into keeping happy customers to return. There is no fun at playing online in a dead enviroment with just you and the slot or whatever you prefer. It gets very boring after a while to be honest. And after a certain timespan, i can guarantee you that online simply 'locks out' as we've seen before in smaller gambling places. They do this esp at night to keep the return rate at a higher level at day.

Dont forget, casino's are very greedy. We can see the widespread in the USA on practically every corner in every state, at least some sort of gambling device such as video pokers into grocery stores. If we take germany for example you get video slots in every gas station there is, and some city's or even villages with more then enough gambling places. The UK has these problems as well. They are each one of them all gready.

I know someone who runs such a joint. He's investing in either buying joints or building new joints to gamble. You want to know what his secret is after buying a joint? He simply reverts the RTP with a good marging to make more and more profit. What difference would that mentallity be at Online casino? They keep extending their gameplay, offers, mailing lists or trick you with bonus deposits and such, JUST TO KEEP YOU PLAYING.

Really, some people really talk crap about online gameplay. No it's not world wide distributed. Your not winning someone's loss playing from alaska. You are in a country and i'm pretty much sure that all general plays are being held into some country deposit and distrubuted from that. So technically if you have 10 low volume players, there is no chance that you as a player would have a high volume outcome. They cant make loss on games. That simple.

 

[sledge13]

I recentley won $3600 on DOA at .45c a massive amount for me, exactly one second after this, every other single slot shut down their payouts, Playboy at $1.20 a spin, 8 features in a row 1-5X payout, this slot has never ever payed so low to me, then tried others... the slots wanted their money back and were going to make sure this happened.

Nothing random just you've won, and your damn not going to win again...and this is not tinfoil its fact, its a shame Tracemonkey cant come to terms with whats going on.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I'm more curious about what your investment and return actually was, when hitting that 3600. You could count the amount of deposits and come back with a number. I am confident that your player ID, deposits and all that stuff is being used against you. How could i otherwise, do 3 deposits and suddenly get that bonus i was basicly playing for while the game was totally shut down.

It has nothing todo with random anymore. Edit: Tracemonkey designs slots (so i've understood) but i dont think Tracemonkey is involved in the actual numbers on what a slot should do on longer term of profit and TRTP and such.

You dont put a designer for other tasks that involve maths. A designer designs.

Slots where always the cashcow of any casino. And i hate it when we are the ones being screwed over twice by an advertised 95% rtp or in between, and still get screwed over by some other nasty hidden feature(s) that nobody from the busines can actually or is willing to explain. By nature, any RTP is simple like 10 dollar in, 9.50 dollar out (95%) and the casino keeps 0,50 cent over a course of time. It should be that simple. It's having and making tricks, it's compensating, it's overruling certain bets or gameplay, it's doing everything to suck out players money and yet still screaming the stuff is really genuine. Like i'd have to believe 'm on their blue eyes that it's all real.

The two testikels in between my pants are real.

 

[trancemonkey]

It would appear that you've gone from being able to have a reasoned debate in to a "i don't believe a word you're saying - they are all rigged and i know it" - so i'm not going to try and change your mind. However, i will answer your points inline:

False perception:

View attachment 84544

I've pressed alot of buttons to know this is not genuine, random or whatever you'd call it. It's managed, controlled, a build in feature to suck out your money. Proberly a design feature as well. Strategy does'nt matter. I feel very confident that the moment i start playing it's like already decided what is going to happen. I am sure that many of us in here could relate to the above.

Not sure what you mean here - but they aren't managed or controlled. They are random games that work within mathematical and statistical parameters. You can feel as confident as you want, but it's not true.

If it was me i'd burn every online casino with their advertised bullshit, cause it's simply NOT TRUE. There are too many factors and overhead in between (a game is often licenced from a game provider) that could offer you a fair chance. The casino who promotes the games wants a percentage as well. So your 95% is proberly a lower number in the end.

What factors? All the overheads, game providers, etc. are paid for by the 4% (or whatever it is) that the game keeps. The 95% is what goes back to the player.

Nobody knows exactly whats going on behind a game in general.

Nobody? I do... it's my job!

If i'm correct you design a game, with rheels, with a basic RNG, and every spin should generate a 'fair' outcome, with respect of a RTP / TRTP, otherwise the slot you deliver would generate a loss on the longer term and thus not making money for the casino. So there are certain features build in that would ensure the above. I am confident as well that the software would protect the game provider & casino for any financial loss, that for example, a game could not exceed a certain amount of money or that anyone depositting 10$ would magicly click this into 10.000 and clicks withdrawl with any method of play.

Not at all - in fact, when we release a game to a casino, we have to provide them a "max liability" which is the biggest possible win we have either calculated, or simulated if the game is not calculable. Casinos can and do lose money on games - some bad games may NEVER make money for a casino

It's designed to keep you playing. It's designed like keeping a addict an addict. If he haves any doubt to step out or quit, the casino has their ways to keep players in. We are not stupid. The net is full of information related to this thread, slot design and keeping playing simply playing. Because playing on the long run will grant the casino that profit they are after. It's where the real money is being made. So they design the game in a very slow matter. And often throw symbols that are 'almost' a near big hit, to keep you playing.

Yes of course we do things to make you excited, give you anticipation... but do we cheat you? Well, i know on my games i don't cheat people.

I am sorry but i have much more fun going into a landbased casino then online. People should make a thread for "myths" as well, because alot of false information is being spread, such as "World wide players > more chance to win" and such. Look man, i have a VIP status not for nothing. And there are a very few amount of people who actually have that card here in our landbased casino.

Land-based casinos are nearly ALWAYS a lower RTP than online... but i would rather go to a casino than play at home. Personal preference. I probably win more online because of the higher RTP, but then the games online are much more volatile.

And it grants many rights and a much better service anyway then online. I once had a VIP relation manager online and her only goal was to keep me playing, happy and such. But i got stuck on the same online pattern, bullshit, nonsense and build in features that it was best for me to stop playing online. I'd advise people to do the very same thing.

As i've said to people like TourettesGuy who ask for advice from us industry peeps, but then point blank refuse to accept it - if you think it's all rigged, just stop playing. Nothing i can say, do, or show you, will prove to you that they aren't rigged because you believe they are and don't believe me...

Therefore, i wish you all the best and will leave you to it

 

[trancemonkey]

I recentley won $3600 on DOA at .45c a massive amount for me, exactly one second after this, every other single slot shut down their payouts, Playboy at $1.20 a spin, 8 features in a row 1-5X payout, this slot has never ever payed so low to me, then tried others... the slots wanted their money back and were going to make sure this happened.

Nothing random just you've won, and your damn not going to win again...and this is not tinfoil its fact, its a shame Tracemonkey cant come to terms with whats going on.

So what your saying is that i should come to terms with something you believe, even though i know it not to be true, just to appease you?

Erm... no

The chance of you winning 3600 on DOA is infinitely small - so those massive wins are indeed incredibly rare. So yes, compared to that, all the other games WILL feel like they shut down. It's simple statistics...

 

[trancemonkey]

It has nothing todo with random anymore. Edit: Tracemonkey designs slots (so i've understood) but i dont think Tracemonkey is involved in the actual numbers on what a slot should do on longer term of profit and TRTP and such.

You dont put a designer for other tasks that involve maths. A designer designs.

That just goes to show how little you know about what a producer's role is..

My job is to come up with the game idea (theme, mechanics, etc..) and then i have an entire team of mathematicians, artists, developers, QA, compliance, etc.. who make the game that's in my head. The game is my responsibility from conception through to end of life. I know EXACTLY what happens in slots - both online and land-based.

You don't have to believe a word i say - but please don't try and tell me what my job is / isn't. I know far more about the maths, compliance, game design, industry etc.. than you do because it is my job to do it. How would you like it if i started a thread that told you that you know sweet F.A about the job you do and question everything you say / do? Think about it... what do i gain by being on here and trying to share knowledge with people in the hope they understand that whatever they might THINK we do, we actually don't.

 

[Bloatgoat]

So what your saying is that i should come to terms with something you believe, even though i know it not to be true, just to appease you?

Erm... no

The chance of you winning 3600 on DOA is infinitely small - so those massive wins are indeed incredibly rare. So yes, compared to that, all the other games WILL feel like they shut down. It's simple statistics...

So based on statitics, slots are not cold after a huge win, and the player is just delusional, knowing he does'nt stand a chance after that?

Come'on man, that's just nonsense. The reality he writes about after winning big everything goes on lockdown is'nt just by stats or math. It's a build in feature nobody can overcome. Not even i as i was slamming the slots like crazy on various ways. And i know how to exploit a game if i have that chance.

You keep on saying the opposite of what is true but we never know as you are a designer who designs a genuine game. But we have a game provider who buys / licences the game you create and put a little extra sauce on top of that, as that is the part what we are trying to discuss.

I just cant believe that after a huge win, or wait a day and leave my 'winnings' into my account, to continue playing and simply not hit anything big after that, that that would be stats / math / some calculation and not just a locked down account since it's bounded to a player ID at the game provider i am playing on.

I'll give you another example; year ago i was slamming jackpots like crazy. Avg 4k on big bet. That party was over a while ago and i need to work much harder for 1500 times 2 and the fun is over. Coincidence? Or a choice of the casino to limit certain payouts? I can relate to that choice since it would give the other players barely a chance. But again. It's their floor, it's their machines, it's their choice and they have that option with respects of the RTP. I KNOW this for a reason since the landbased casino's simply buy the slot machines and leave the majority of settings on 'default'. Here's where i come into play my friend.

You can write that land based casino's have a lower RTP compared to online, but as stated, i think those offer a far better chance then online with some deviation or make the math based upon total wins vs total bets which are completely unrealistic and do not even come close to a deposit vs win. What are you talking about? Please clarify upon that subject, as we all would like to know about THAT.

That just goes to show how little you know about what a producer's role is..

My job is to come up with the game idea (theme, mechanics, etc..) and then i have an entire team of mathematicians, artists, developers, QA, compliance, etc.. who make the game that's in my head. The game is my responsibility from conception through to end of life. I know EXACTLY what happens in slots - both online and land-based.

You don't have to believe a word i say - but please don't try and tell me what my job is / isn't. I know far more about the maths, compliance, game design, industry etc.. than you do because it is my job to do it. How would you like it if i started a thread that told you that you know sweet F.A about the job you do and question everything you say / do? Think about it... what do i gain by being on here and trying to share knowledge with people in the hope they understand that whatever they might THINK we do, we actually don't.

Ok, my misunderstanding, your a lead designer. In my profession a designer never works on the technical side of things but focusses on his part of the job. That's why he's called a designer. So you still have some guys who are responsible for mathematics and such. ^^