Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[dionysus]

Seriously dude you're being rude for no reason whatsoever...

I agree. I reported the post a few hrs back...I figure it's best to let Bryan or max sort it out before it demegrates into anything more.

 

[goatwack]

Found this article about irate gamers getting worked up and suspicious of a popular video game, and how it manages to alter gameplay in the strangest moments. "Rigged", some might say.

Now whilst not a slot, it still has programming code and a peculiarity found within, namely 'adaptive difficulty', which inevitably results in spectacularly strange goings-on when the player is doing too well

Of course these events are firmly denied by the creators of the game as you'd expect, but if thousands notice these scripted events it is not beyond the realms of possibility that slots also have similar traits, as shown by their often un-random behaviours when players get too 'confident' with their betting.

Just throwing it out there

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[lotusch]

Thanks to you Goatwack I had a very amusing 30 minutes as I totally missed this thread.
So after March 14th OP vanished?
Whatever happened one may ask.

Maybe he lost his sanity all together and converted himself to be a monk for the rest of his life.

 

[goatwack]

Thanks to you Goatwack I had a very amusing 30 minutes as I totally missed this thread.
So after March 14th OP vanished?
Whatever happened one may ask.

Maybe he lost his sanity all together and converted himself to be a monk for the rest of his life.

30 minutes?? I'm still on page 2

 

[trancemonkey]

Found this article about irate gamers getting worked up and suspicious of a popular video game, and how it manages to alter gameplay in the strangest moments. "Rigged", some might say.

Now whilst not a slot, it still has programming code and a peculiarity found within, namely 'adaptive difficulty', which inevitably results in spectacularly strange goings-on when the player is doing too well

Of course these events are firmly denied by the creators of the game as you'd expect, but if thousands notice these scripted events it is not beyond the realms of possibility that slots also have similar traits, as shown by their often un-random behaviours when players get too 'confident' with their betting.

Just throwing it out there

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Adaptive difficulty is a widely used behaviour in computer games.. you may notice something called "Rubber Banding" in driving games where you seem to catch up the drivers if you fall behind only to suddenly see them get better again.

Or in some games where the AI gets better if you get better...

Of course this is for an industry which is not paying out money and is not regulated so I'm afraid the comparison is kind of irrelevant....

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks to you Goatwack I had a very amusing 30 minutes as I totally missed this thread.
So after March 14th OP vanished?
Whatever happened one may ask.

Maybe he lost his sanity all together and converted himself to be a monk for the rest of his life.

The OP was reported for some extremely offensive comments... Not sure if he ever came back or not...

 

[lotusch]

30 minutes?? I'm still on page 2

I read fast.. ^^

 

[lotusch]

The OP was reported for some extremely offensive comments... Not sure if he ever came back or not...

Oh I have seen that...That was very rude and not needed.
But I see his account is open (not banned).
Maybe he just gave up.

 

[incrediblestuff]

Very cool that article Goat

Reason being, i already knew adaptive difficulty was used in games, but i only ever noticed this in Single player games - player vs AI - and having been out of the gamer scene for a good while now, don't think i would have come across this anytime soon. I think it's very funny because me and one of my mates used to play FIFA quite competitively when we smoked weed together, and had nothing better to do, and i pretty much always dominated him - the few times he did win (and was much TOO happy about it - you know, with a lot of childish 'neener neener' behaviour added) however, can now be dismissed as him having played SO poorly, the game decided it needed to help him, so to speak

I will stuff that article in his face and break his dreams of grandeur ^.^

 

[greylady]

Now I know how I managed to beat my son on FIFA all of twice

 

[goatwack]

Adaptive difficulty is a widely used behaviour in computer games.. you may notice something called "Rubber Banding" in driving games where you seem to catch up the drivers if you fall behind only to suddenly see them get better again.

Or in some games where the AI gets better if you get better...

Of course this is for an industry which is not paying out money and is not regulated so I'm afraid the comparison is kind of irrelevant....

(Cue trumpet fanfare)

"The defender of Slot Justice has returned!"

I predicted you'd give that answer word for word, I wrote it down on a scrap of paper AND I dreamt it

What made the article stick out was the scripted computer response which left the player helpless, not ramping up AI difficulty

Microtransactions, DLC etc all involve monetary transactions too and yes the industry is regulated

 

[trancemonkey]

(Cue trumpet fanfare)

"The defender of Slot Justice has returned!"

I predicted you'd give that answer word for word, I wrote it down on a scrap of paper AND I dreamt it

What made the article stick out was the scripted computer response which left the player helpless, not ramping up AI difficulty

Microtransactions, DLC etc all involve monetary transactions too and yes the industry is regulated

I should get a cape

But sorry goatwack, you can't compare the two industries in terms of regulation....

 

[videoslotheaven]

Its obvious tough that the games are compensated somehow.

A week ago i won about 1100 euros from one 1 euro spin on jungle spirit. Got the bonus again after 10 spins and it paid 0!! Getting a 0 paying bonus round is extremley rare. Then it magically happening right after a huge win.

Same thing happened today on dead or alive had 3 lines with 4 wilds and 5 spins to go. No wildline and mostly low paying symbols BUT it paid about 1200 on a 0.90 bet. Next bonus round paid....... wait fore it.....



0!!!

Ive cut back my gambling to almost nothing. Been playing allitle now due to some wins. But it does not feel fair anymore. Its like its waaaaaaaay more unlikley to win anything. It pisses me off that this industry can do whatever it pleases without anyone regulating them.

The regulators are a total joke as it is obvious to anyone with half a brain these gamea are not what they used to. Money talks in malta i guess

 

[trancemonkey]

Its obvious tough that the games are compensated somehow.

A week ago i won about 1100 euros from one 1 euro spin on jungle spirit. Got the bonus again after 10 spins and it paid 0!! Getting a 0 paying bonus round is extremley rare. Then it magically happening right after a huge win.

Same thing happened today on dead or alive had 3 lines with 4 wilds and 5 spins to go. No wildline and mostly low paying symbols BUT it paid about 1200 on a 0.90 bet. Next bonus round paid....... wait fore it.....



0!!!

Ive cut back my gambling to almost nothing. Been playing allitle now due to some wins. But it does not feel fair anymore. Its like its waaaaaaaay more unlikley to win anything. It pisses me off that this industry can do whatever it pleases without anyone regulating them.

The regulators are a total joke as it is obvious to anyone with half a brain these gamea are not what they used to. Money talks in malta i guess

Come and work in the industry then... companies are always looking for people...
If you think it's rigged, get a job in the industry and then you'll know for definite one way of the other

 

[richmcd]

Its obvious tough that the games are compensated somehow.

A week ago i won about 1100 euros from one 1 euro spin on jungle spirit. Got the bonus again after 10 spins and it paid 0!! Getting a 0 paying bonus round is extremley rare. Then it magically happening right after a huge win.

Same thing happened today on dead or alive had 3 lines with 4 wilds and 5 spins to go. No wildline and mostly low paying symbols BUT it paid about 1200 on a 0.90 bet. Next bonus round paid....... wait fore it.....



0!!!

Ive cut back my gambling to almost nothing. Been playing allitle now due to some wins. But it does not feel fair anymore. Its like its waaaaaaaay more unlikley to win anything. It pisses me off that this industry can do whatever it pleases without anyone regulating them.

The regulators are a total joke as it is obvious to anyone with half a brain these gamea are not what they used to. Money talks in malta i guess

But why? Why would they care enough do that? I accept that I don't know anything about what goes on behind the scenes, but I can't see any reason why the casinos would do anything so complicated and illegal, when they've got such a sweet deal if everything is set up exactly as they claim.

I think the mistake people make is taking it personally. Which makes sense: beyond a bit of community spirit here, we only care about our own wins and losses.

But casinos don't care about your personal balance sheet. They don't need to.

As far as they're concerned, we're all the same - interchangeable, faceless drones who turn up and shovel in our money. Who cares if my money eventually comes back to me or ends up in your wallet? Why would they need to claw back that 1100 from you, rather than the next player? Every spin is independent, and that goes double for who's doing the spinning. 100% of the money goes in, 96% goes out. The casinos don't give two shits how that 96% is distributed. They only care about the 4% they get to keep. And that stays the same no matter who's winning and losing, whether someone sells their kidneys to keep spinning and dies in an alley or if they win the jackpot and go and live on a yacht. There'll be someone else also to take their place. And the casinos won't give two shits about that new person either, except for their contribution to the system that pays out 4% of everything that's put into it.

But...

Of course there may be a meta-level to this. If changes in slot design are making people think that slots are rigged, then that could be indicative of bad slot design. Players need to be kept happy, even if their happiness is based on a fundamental misunderstanding about how slots work. A LOT of people seem to feel like slots have changed, and I don't have enough information to know whether it was ever thus (just like how we know that every generation since the dawn of writing has complained about "things being better in their day") or whether there's been an actual change in player attitudes.

But I guess it doesn't matter. For all the griping, people don't seem to be voting with their wallets. They're still playing, even though they're apparently miserable about it and think it's all a scam. It's baffling.

 

[trancemonkey]

But why? Why would they care enough do that? I accept that I don't know anything about what goes on behind the scenes, but I can't see any reason why the casinos would do anything so complicated and illegal, when they've got such a sweet deal if everything is set up exactly as they claim.

I think the mistake people make is taking it personally. Which makes sense: beyond a bit of community spirit here, we only care about our own wins and losses.

But casinos don't care about your personal balance sheet. They don't need to.

As far as they're concerned, we're all the same - interchangeable, faceless drones who turn up and shovel in our money. Who cares if my money eventually comes back to me or ends up in your wallet? Why would they need to claw back that 1100 from you, rather than the next player? Every spin is independent, and that goes double for who's doing the spinning. 100% of the money goes in, 96% goes out. The casinos don't give two shits how that 96% is distributed. They only care about the 4% they get to keep. And that stays the same no matter who's winning and losing, whether someone sells their kidneys to keep spinning and dies in an alley or if they win the jackpot and go and live on a yacht. There'll be someone else also to take their place. And the casinos won't give two shits about that new person either, except for their contribution to the system that pays out 4% of everything that's put into it.

But...

Of course there may be a meta-level to this. If changes in slot design are making people think that slots are rigged, then that could be indicative of bad slot design. Players need to be kept happy, even if their happiness is based on a fundamental misunderstanding about how slots work. A LOT of people seem to feel like slots have changed, and I don't have enough information to know whether it was ever thus (just like how we know that every generation since the dawn of writing has complained about "things being better in their day") or whether there's been an actual change in player attitudes.

But I guess it doesn't matter. For all the griping, people don't seem to be voting with their wallets. They're still playing, even though they're apparently miserable about it and think it's all a scam. It's baffling.

A lot of sense spoken again...

All the people who complain we have changed the games to make them worse... Just think about why we would have done that? The only reason most of us would ever change a game is to make it better for the player because that way you spend more money and we make more money. Simples.

Of course there are also sometimes changes required because laws change or because of faults or because maybe a casino wants a 95% version not a a 96% one. But all we want to do is make games players want to play because without that we dont have a business. Why the hell would we intentionally want to piss you off?

Bad game designs might. Bad maths. But they aren't done on purpose. No one ever released a game expecting it to fail... That would be ridiculous.

 

[duskedamp]

Bad game designs might. Bad maths. But they aren't done on purpose. No one ever released a game expecting it to fail... That would be ridiculous.

Go tell that Microgaming

 

[Yellowsamuel]

They only care about the 4% they get to keep.

I think this can be misleading
people see the house edge of 4% and think if i deposit £100 i should get £96 back

not quite

The casino get 4% of the overall wagering.
so if you deposit 100 you will probably wager close to £1000 (playing at say 50p to £1 stakes)
so they would take 4% of the 1000 which is £40
You probably know this but I think a lot of people are unaware of how large a house edge of 4% can be in the long term.

 

[slotter999]

I think this can be misleading
people see the house edge of 4% and think if i deposit £100 i should get £96 back

not quite

The casino get 4% of the overall wagering.
so if you deposit 100 you will probably wager close to £1000 (playing at say 50p to £1 stakes)
so they would take 4% of the 1000 which is £40
You probably know this but I think a lot of people are unaware of how large a house edge of 4% can be in the long term.

If....and it's a big if....you were playing a slot with RTP of 96% and hitting that....you should be getting approximately 2450 spins @ £1 stake which should equate to approximately 4 hrs of play time.

My guess is that is not very representative of most sessions for people playing at those stakes with that balance.

 

[richmcd]

I think this can be misleading
people see the house edge of 4% and think if i deposit £100 i should get £96 back

not quite

The casino get 4% of the overall wagering.
so if you deposit 100 you will probably wager close to £1000 (playing at say 50p to £1 stakes)
so they would take 4% of the 1000 which is £40
You probably know this but I think a lot of people are unaware of how large a house edge of 4% can be in the long term.

Yes, when I originally wrote my screed I had some stuff about the wonders of compound interest in there too I wouldn't be against regulation requiring RTP to be listed along with a relevant example.

But actually, I think my point stands. If we don't care about players, only spins, as the casino does, then they really ARE getting an uncompounded 4%.

My point is that the casinos don't care who's spinning. It could be a new person each time, playing one spin and then saying "What a crock of shit!" and then never playing again. And because they don't care who's playing, all theories about compensation immediately get thrown out the window.

 

[slot_zombie]

The house edge could be reduced to 2% if they weren't so greedy. They'd still make money. And many new slots are now being wheeled out on 95% or even less which is unacceptable really.

 

[trancemonkey]

The house edge could be reduced to 2% if they weren't so greedy. They'd still make money. And many new slots are now being wheeled out on 95% or even less which is unacceptable really.

Yeah but they would argue they make 50% less money... Which is a big chunk of change. They probably wouldn't... People would probably just play for longer... But it wouldn't be wholly negated. Not many business would willfully risk reducing their turnover....

 

[interlog]

Yeah but they would argue they make 50% less money... Which is a big chunk of change. They probably wouldn't... People would probably just play for longer... But it wouldn't be wholly negated. Not many business would willfully risk reducing their turnover....

Just look at the supermarket industry here in the UK. The "big four" had to reduce their prices at expense to compete with the likes of Lidl and Aldi.

We need a Lidl and Aldi style slot provider to wake the big boys up.

 

[trancemonkey]

Just look at the supermarket industry here in the UK. The "big four" had to reduce their prices at expense to compete with the likes of Lidl and Aldi.

We need a Lidl and Aldi style slot provider to wake the big boys up.

Yeah but remember 98% of people probably don't care about or know about RTP - they just work on feeling... If people cared about RTP no one would play in a bricks and mortar casino especially in the US

 

[Bloatgoat]

This thread IS very valuable and many suggestions and posts left by various users confirm what i already discovered, believed and figured out. I have a very strong feeling that more and more games on the online casino industry are based upon Server sided gaming and no longer 'independent' machine operating. This is what i am seeing as well on the local casino floor. It's no longer really genuine but rather decided by one central computer.

I am a high limit player, see

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for example, and in this 3 years of experience playing slots, i've decided to take a go on the net. I've had a very bad experience with a certain online casino from the UK with payout, i'll leave the ranting aside, and later had some succes with crazy 100 free spins on a 21 euro bet and such. Most of the online casino's are legitimate (luckily) and they simply license their gaming offers from the bigger names such as nettent, WMS and so on.

At some point, the game can be considered very skeptical. You deposit your 200 euro, start playing on a reasonable bet, just nothing happens, and the action often starts to begin when your almost out of your money. Here comes that build in excitement, you either win (often close to what you deposit) or you lose it all. When you win it's often the simular song, there's no frigging way to get over the amount of money you deposited. When you lose and deposit another 200 again, suddenly there's that bonus or feature you've bin playing for. And it leaves you basicly still at your 400 mark. Here comes the frustation, your starting to bet bigger hoping that one good bonus might overcome this. Nada.

At some point i litterally deposited a 1000 euro to finally get on top with 1600. And from there booted it up to 11k, from where i found myself very limited in EVERY game i played from there on. The lag was enormous, like the server on the other side HAD TO VERIFY each bet and gameplay i did. Every game is / was cold basicly. The moment you start withdrawling, your somehow flagged, and it takes alot of time as other players in here stated, to even have a normal game. Your losing bigtime.

This is the server sided thing i am talking about. They track player ID's and know exactly what you've done. On a normal machine without any knowledge on who's playing, this woud'nt proberly happen in the first place. I see this same thing going on at my local casino. For example, we have a block with 8 slots. There's like 6 people playing and i'm the only big player in between. I'm betting from 10 up to 30 a spin. I'm losing. And everyone in the same block is 'suddenly' winning. Like my losses are being redistributed among the other players and i'm not even having one single chance.

Another example, i toss in a bill of 500 into a machine, and start playing. After 3 spins it immidiatly gives out 390 plus in prize, and sticks me with 850 euro which means a 350 plus profit right. After that, it's boom, completely done. It's like already telling me take this and dont come back lol. Does'nt matter if i toss another 500 bill onto the machine, it's not happening. When i am looking for the technology behind server sided gamging, the main reason for this is that machines could no longer be exploited or 'hacked' as they say.

This means that the actual RNG is no longer being done on the game itself but decided by the server sided gaming platform if i'm not mistaken. This also clarifies the 'exploiting' of any game in general that it no longer could be abused by those who really pound the slots bigtime (and cause the casino a financial issue). Back in the days (i'm talking 15 ~ 8 months ago) i could easily slam jackpots of over 4k in my local casino. Right now i really need to work to get to 800 up to 1500 and if i'm lucky get the very same thing again, but defenily kill the slot from there on. Other slots i try with for example my player card, wont work.

If i'd play without my card, the thing starts working again. I'm pretty sure that the system used your ID stored into your players card and somehow manages to skimp you out. Why would this be any different online onto slots? I can relate to the fact that a big player like me can rape a few slots in just a few hours, and leave them cold for the rest of the players for a few days from there on. They changed it in such a matter that everyone would simply stand a chance and the big players actually paying a greater loss.

When you click on any game's info tab, there's usually a small line where a single spin could be limited to xxx.xxx amount of payout. So technically, they have it build in to limit a game or bonus on a certain amount of bet / payout. It can be used against players in favour of the casino, i'm very sure of this. It's also very unartificial that when you start hitting 40 euro a spin, just nothing works out. They DO offer bets from some games all the way up to 500 euro ONLINE but hardly any feedback from this here.

I woud'nt say that gambling is rigged, but surely and defenitly handicapped. I see the same trend going on into my local casino.