Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[trancemonkey]

..you want your every spin to be a winner?

and if it was rigged as you all say...it takes one, just one disgruntled employee to bring all of the developers down with the scandal of the century....sorry... and yes trancemonkey was sent to get us off their trail ...just like i had suggested in his post...but i was joking.... alas...stop playing slots if you think its rigged....

It hasn't worked though has it hahaha

 

[Steviedoo]

Not certain. Most employes most likley sign discloaure agreements putting them at risk of hefty lawsuits if they reveal any company secret.

Even the company i work for has this in place and i work in the food industry.

if anything was amiss with slot providers no contract would keep a lid on it....what you are all claiming is too big to keep quiet about......

 

[Deeplay]

Not certain. Most employes most likley sign discloaure agreements putting them at risk of hefty lawsuits if they reveal any company secret.

Even the company i work for has this in place and i work in the food industry.

Naw thats bollocks if an employee had such major info as a smoking gun about "games" being manipulated I think the last thing they would be worried about would any disclosure agreement.
Fact no one has ever come forward to give any kind of credible info that something is fixed - why ? because its not. It does not need to be, The maths of the games makes sure we are all screwed in the end.

I cant work out why some people still think the game is rigged ... why bother playing at all if they feel its bent ...

 

[trancemonkey]

Naw thats bollocks if an employee had such major info as a smoking gun about "games" being manipulated I think the last thing they would be worried about would any disclosure agreement.
Fact no one has ever come forward to give any kind of credible info that something is fixed - why ? because its not. It does not need to be, The maths of the games makes sure we are all screwed in the end.

I cant work out why some people still think the game is rigged ... why bother playing at all if they feel its bent ...

Believe me there are as in any industry a shit load of disgruntled employees. Inspired have just had a round of redundancies... You think that hasn't pissed some people off? Course it has... But I guarantee none will come out and say Inspired did dodgy shit

 

[Deeplay]

Believe me there are as in any industry a shit load of disgruntled employees. Inspired have just had a round of redundancies... You think that hasn't pissed some people off? Course it has... But I guarantee none will come out and say Inspired did dodgy shit

Exactly !

 

[Tourettesguy]

Trancemonkey, you know anything about online poker?

If so, would you say Im right if I say the upcoming cards on the table(forgot what they ar called, one is river I think) is not determined at start of a hand, meaning card 4 and 5 will be decided during that hand depending of howthe players call, raise or folds?
Im pretty convinced card 4 and 5 "changes" depending the players actions...therefor online poker is totally rigged. Wouldnt it be fair if someone made it sure all upcoming 5 card on the table stayed the same before all players starts betting? I would trust online poker the day some kind referee saw the upcoming cards before players starts betting... Now Im pretty sure the software optimizing for best income to the pokersite and keeping players on the site making sure each player get and average somewhat good payout...possibly appling same RTP engine like at slots. A good pokerplayer probably can improve his odds but not s much as he or she believes...the software will compensate!

 

[Steviedoo]

Trancemonkey, you know anything about online poker?

If so, would you say Im right if I say the upcoming cards on the table(forgot what they ar called, one is river I think) is not determined at start of a hand, meaning card 4 and 5 will be decided during that hand depending of howthe players call, raise or folds?
Im pretty convinced card 4 and 5 "changes" depending the players actions...therefor online poker is totally rigged. Wouldnt it be fair if someone made it sure all upcoming 5 card on the table stayed the same before all players starts betting? I would trust online poker the day some kind referee saw the upcoming cards before players starts betting... Now Im pretty sure the software optimizing for best income to the pokersite and keeping players on the site making sure each player get and average somewhat good payout...possibly appling same RTP engine like at slots. A good pokerplayer probably can improve his odds but not s much as he or she believes...the software will compensate!

Do you play any online poker and or slots? And if you do. Why?

 

[miso]

Trancemonkey, you know anything about online poker?

If so, would you say Im right if I say the upcoming cards on the table(forgot what they ar called, one is river I think) is not determined at start of a hand, meaning card 4 and 5 will be decided during that hand depending of howthe players call, raise or folds?
Im pretty convinced card 4 and 5 "changes" depending the players actions...therefor online poker is totally rigged. Wouldnt it be fair if someone made it sure all upcoming 5 card on the table stayed the same before all players starts betting? I would trust online poker the day some kind referee saw the upcoming cards before players starts betting... Now Im pretty sure the software optimizing for best income to the pokersite and keeping players on the site making sure each player get and average somewhat good payout...possibly appling same RTP engine like at slots. A good pokerplayer probably can improve his odds but not s much as he or she believes...the software will compensate!

You don't play the cards, you play the people

But to answer your question to the best of my knowledge, online poker rooms use RNG that is extensively tested. Now, I read before that some sites shuffle the deck before the hand, some sites shuffle again before the next card.

Honestly makes no difference, bottom line is, the next card is always random generated. I've been rivered so many times in ways that defy logic, but I can assure you 99% of the time it was donkeys sitting there calling and waiting on the last card with fingers crossed

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey, you know anything about online poker?

If so, would you say Im right if I say the upcoming cards on the table(forgot what they ar called, one is river I think) is not determined at start of a hand, meaning card 4 and 5 will be decided during that hand depending of howthe players call, raise or folds?
Im pretty convinced card 4 and 5 "changes" depending the players actions...therefor online poker is totally rigged. Wouldnt it be fair if someone made it sure all upcoming 5 card on the table stayed the same before all players starts betting? I would trust online poker the day some kind referee saw the upcoming cards before players starts betting... Now Im pretty sure the software optimizing for best income to the pokersite and keeping players on the site making sure each player get and average somewhat good payout...possibly appling same RTP engine like at slots. A good pokerplayer probably can improve his odds but not s much as he or she believes...the software will compensate!

When you're playing poker you're playing against other people. Not the house. The house takes a fee (and in cash games an ante) to make their money. Poker doesn't have an RTP. There is zero reason to rig poker.

Secondly whether you shuffle the deck before each hand or after each card makes no difference. Each card statistically has the same chance of being picked.

 

[Tourettesguy]

When you're playing poker you're playing against other people. Not the house. The house takes a fee (and in cash games an ante) to make their money. Poker doesn't have an RTP. There is zero reason to rig poker.

Secondly whether you shuffle the deck before each hand or after each card makes no difference. Each card statistically has the same chance of being picked.

Are you kiddin´me? First....are there really landbased casinos that shuffle the deck after the first 3 cards is on table and then after the 4th card too? Really? It really would piss me off if the did that and I lost the hand! LOL You are joking right?

And secondly, the pokersite feed on fees and ofcoarse it has every reason in the world to rig the software for optimal profit. The house ofcoarse want the total amount of money depsited change players acounnt as many times as possible...sooner or later a deposit is consumed as fees in the pokerroom.... Worst case for the pokerroom is if one player lose his €1000 deposit in one hand...the loser probably will not deposit agan and/or close their account if the player often loses...and the winning player may make a withdrawal. Sure the software have a record of players individual payout and compensates as far as possible to keep players at the table... I remember back in the days I were playing online, I saw very strange patterns there to....foten winning big on last money...or getting supergood cards next hand after a big loss...also playing with real cards at the time and there was a BIG difference...one reason I stopped playing online.

Holy hell...really they shuffle cards after each card? LOL! Hm....why cant card 4 and 5 be the same form the time the first 3 are shown? The fact that if those last cards alters through the game, the software allows to make calulations...and for what reason? Fasted way and easiest way for the system would be to choose those last cards at start and just let them be fixed for less loading and let other tables play fast with no delays and less bandwith used for online players.

 

[trancemonkey]

Are you kiddinme? First....are there really landbased casinos that shuffle the deck after the first 3 cards is on table and then after the 4th card too? Really? It really would piss me off if the did that and I lost the hand! LOL You are joking right?

And secondly, the pokersite feed on fees and ofcoarse it has every reason in the world to rig the software for optimal profit. The house ofcoarse want the total amount of money depsited change players acounnt as many times as possible...sooner or later a deposit is consumed as fees in the pokerroom.... Worst case for the pokerroom is if one player lose his 1000 deposit in one hand...the loser probably will not deposit agan and/or close their account if the player often loses...and the winning player may make a withdrawal. Sure the software have a record of players individual payout and compensates as far as possible to keep players at the table... I remember back in the days I were playing online, I saw very strange patterns there to....foten winning big on last money...or getting supergood cards next hand after a big loss...also playing with real cards at the time and there was a BIG difference...one reason I stopped playing online.

Holy hell...really they shuffle cards after each card? LOL! Hm....why cant card 4 and 5 be the same form the time the first 3 are shown? The fact that if those last cards alters through the game, the software allows to make calulations...and for what reason? Fasted way and easiest way for the system would be to choose those last cards at start and just let them be fixed for less loading and let other tables play fast with no delays and less bandwith used for online players.

I didn't say they DID, I said they could... Statistically it would make no difference. I would of course assume that they just shuffled before the draw and not again afterwards. This would make the code a lot simpler.

And with all due respect, you seem convinced that EVERYTHING is rigged. Why would they rig poker - none of your examples make sense. Poker is a game of skill and luck combined... Good people win and bad people lose. Its not a slot game or a standard game of luck... Get yourself out of this conspiracy mode dude... It really isn't as bad as you think...

Go and play for real in a casino or poker bar. You'll see exactly the same patterns as you describe... Do you think the casinos are compensating with real decks and employ magicians as dealers? Come on...

Yes there are some bad providers out there I'm sure... But the vast vast majority of them are good.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Why would they rig poker - none of your examples make sense

The example makes no sense? For me they make perfectly sense.... Poker is almost exatly the same lottery a slotgame is in my point of view...very easily programmened to compensate what I just descibled even for you I believe. I would be comfortable to play online poker if I knew card 4 and 5 were fixed from stard...but its ofcoarse "not possible" to make that happen or have a proof of that...just that make me very unsecure. Real poker you atleast know the cards on the table are the same cards from start to end...no history stats keep on each player an so on. Its fair whatever happen.... Online is not, online poker is among the biggest industri in the world, sure these two cards are very important for the companys income... So ofcoarse they are not just "dead" cards in a hand...they make alot of diffence if they are able to alter throughout a pokerhand, maybe not much each time but a few pennies in average at each hand make many millions each month. I dont think anyone here actually believes those card are fixed... Doens matter if chanign those cards in the long term make no diffence...but the cards on the table should be that same card from start to end! None would play real poker fi they changed those cards durign the game...

And with all due respect, you seem convinced that EVERYTHING is rigged

So what, thats why Im asking you when you seem to know more than everybody else...but most peole here dont ask the right questions. You sound more like a politican when you seem to put your head in the sand and talkign more about me and dotn see mto understand my questions and dont see how what I descibe make sence...think I made it very clear how companys gain to keep those last card on table floating until after players decisions... You dont even think its possible to keep track of each players history and make the software choose "right" cards for most profit (short and/or longterm) to show up depending of have the players aroudn the table have made their choices?

Would be interesting to know how the poker programmers think and programs the software... i get a feel tehre is a some kind of random payout generator that "randomly" gives dieffent player the advantage at a pokertable...and this generator take history in considerations...how much ech player won or lost...ofcoarse this is a very VERY advanced part of the poker program...which have evolved during all these years. Such big industri probably have invested billions in research and programming for just this part Ive been talkign about here.

Its for sure not just 2 dead cards programmers dont think much of...

 

[trancemonkey]

The example makes no sense? For me they make perfectly sense.... Poker is almost exatly the same lottery a slotgame is in my point of view...very easily programmened to compensate what I just descibled even for you I believe. I would be comfortable to play online poker if I knew card 4 and 5 were fixed from stard...but its ofcoarse "not possible" to make that happen or have a proof of that...just that make me very unsecure. Real poker you atleast know the cards on the table are the same cards from start to end...no history stats keep on each player an so on. Its fair whatever happen.... Online is not, online poker is among the biggest industri in the world, sure these two cards are very important for the companys income... So ofcoarse they are not just "dead" cards in a hand...they make alot of diffence if they are able to alter throughout a pokerhand, maybe not much each time but a few pennies in average at each hand make many millions each month. I dont think anyone here actually believes those card are fixed... Doens matter if chanign those cards in the long term make no diffence...but the cards on the table should be that same card from start to end! None would play real poker fi they changed those cards durign the game...


So what, thats why Im asking you when you seem to know more than everybody else...but most peole here dont ask the right questions. You sound more like a politican when you seem to put your head in the sand and talkign more about me and dotn see mto understand my questions and dont see how what I descibe make sence...think I made it very clear how companys gain to keep those last card on table floating until after players decisions... You dont even think its possible to keep track of each players history and make the software choose "right" cards for most profit (short and/or longterm) to show up depending of have the players aroudn the table have made their choices?

Would be interesting to know how the poker programmers think and programs the software... i get a feel tehre is a some kind of random payout generator that "randomly" gives dieffent player the advantage at a pokertable...and this generator take history in considerations...how much ech player won or lost...ofcoarse this is a very VERY advanced part of the poker program...which have evolved during all these years. Such big industri probably have invested billions in research and programming for just this part Ive been talkign about here.

Its for sure not just 2 dead cards programmers dont think much of...

You're wrong... I don't become a politician. I just don't give you the answers you want. You disagree with them and tell me I'm wrong. It seems that unless I tell you they are rigged then you'll never stop believing they are.

There are 52 cards in a deck... So at any one time the chance of a card coming out that you might think unlikely is never any worse than 1 in 52. Statistically that's pretty frequent.

What you can't seem to understand and I'm not sure how else to try and explain this to you is that my their very nature random games do things that defy explanation. They can appear to do all the things you say they do... I don't deny that randomly all the things you say happen can and do happen. But you really do have to stop believing everything is rigged...

Every casino game is already rigged against you mathematically. If people rigged it more it would come out. Guaranteed. Someone would whistleblow... It's happened. It will happen again.

I know I can't convince you so I'll stop trying but they honestly aren't rigged.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Ok then... Yes, Im sure things will come out sooner or later, hopefully sooner...

You mentioned 52 cards and so on...minus the cards on players hands...still there are many cards to choose between to end the hand in best favor for the house...but luckily nto soo many it take too much processor power to calcualte.

Well, hope people here playing online poker till have their eyes open...and that Ive put some light on this big problem with card 4 and 5. Could be fixed so easy if the industri wanted to remove any doubts...but no.

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok then... Yes, Im sure things will come out sooner or later, hopefully sooner...

You mentioned 52 cards and so on...minus the cards on players hands...still there are many cards to choose between to end the hand in best favor for the house...but luckily nto soo many it take too much processor power to calcualte.

Well, hope people here playing online poker till have their eyes open...and that Ive put some light on this big problem with card 4 and 5. Could be fixed so easy if the industri wanted to remove any doubts...but no.

How could it be fixed so easily? You referring to the provably fair stuff? For poker this could definitely be done as there is no IP in shuffling a deck.

 

[Tourettesguy]

How could it be fixed so easily? You referring to the provably fair stuff? For poker this could definitely be done as there is no IP in shuffling a deck.

For ex with a licenced timelog that log all 5 cards on the table before betting starts...a timelog the pokerroom or the softwareprovider cannot interfer with. You as programmer can figure it out easily.

 

[mclee321]

For ex with a licenced timelog that log all 5 cards on the table before betting starts...a timelog the pokerroom or the softwareprovider cannot interfer with. You as programmer can figure it out easily.

To what end? Are you genuinely touched? The poker house get the rake, it doesn't give a fuck what cards 4 and 5 are. The river could be a top trump, and the turn a baseball card. They still get the rake.

Some people come up with these mental ideas because they have lost or keep losing. It helps the weak minded cope with the losses. It wasn't ME depositing time after time, nooooooo, it's not ME without any self control, its all rigged!

In your case you picked a game you don't even play, and accused the software of being crooked in the most RANDOM of positions, where it doesn't benefit the so called crooked operator.

Breathtakingly mental, please stop.

 

[dionysus]

. The river could be a top trump, and the turn a baseball card. . .

 

[Jono777]

I know someone who once got into a load of trouble for Stealing a baseball card

10 Points to anyone who can name em

 

[trancemonkey]

For ex with a licenced timelog that log all 5 cards on the table before betting starts...a timelog the pokerroom or the softwareprovider cannot interfer with. You as programmer can figure it out easily.

But us programmers could also easily figure out how to fake the time log...

If I did this and showed it you, and you had a bad run, you'd just say the logs were faked to back up the dodgy software and then you'd want proof they were true and fair...

I'm afraid with some people this is an unwinnable war and I've run out of bullets anyway...

 

[trancemonkey]

To what end? Are you genuinely touched? The poker house get the rake, it doesn't give a fuck what cards 4 and 5 are. The river could be a top trump, and the turn a baseball card. They still get the rake.

Some people come up with these mental ideas because they have lost or keep losing. It helps the weak minded cope with the losses. It wasn't ME depositing time after time, nooooooo, it's not ME without any self control, its all rigged!

In your case you picked a game you don't even play, and accused the software of being crooked in the most RANDOM of positions, where it doesn't benefit the so called crooked operator.

Breathtakingly mental, please stop.

I love you for that answer...

 

[mclee321]

The forums are becoming a cesspool of whinging, unsubstantiated horseshit. It pisses me off. No real analysis, like the wizard of odds used to do. Just "oh the RTP changed cuz I won innit, I know cuz I can feel it. 100% for sure".

Like you pointed out a million times, the edge is built in. Everybody loses eventually. Software house would not lightly risk their reputation, one scandal and it's over.

 

[trancemonkey]

The forums are becoming a cesspool of whinging, unsubstantiated horseshit. It pisses me off. No real analysis, like the wizard of odds used to do. Just "oh the RTP changed cuz I won innit, I know cuz I can feel it. 100% for sure".

Like you pointed out a million times, the edge is built in. Everybody loses eventually. Software house would not lightly risk their reputation, one scandal and it's over.

Less threads like this and more about the good stuff...

 

[Tourettesguy]

I love you for that answer...

Are you gonna fuck or what?

Mclee probably lost more in poker than me... Ok and monkey...so you say all these casino license giver are fake asswell then? I provided an easy way to eliminate any cheating...but you and the industri make fun of it at says its impossible an unneccessary.... So fucking easy but nooo its impossible....weee whaaant to cheeeaaat. Losers!

 

[Steviedoo]

Are you gonna fuck or what?

Mclee probably lost more in poker than me... Ok and monkey...so you say all these casino license giver are fake asswell then? I provided an easy way to eliminate any cheating...but you and the industri make fun of it at says its impossible an unneccessary.... So fucking easy but nooo its impossible....weee whaaant to cheeeaaat. Losers!

Seriously dude you're being rude for no reason whatsoever...