Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[interlog]

You should have tried skill stopping the reels

If only I was at a land based one!

 

[goatwack]

You have to imagine a second, with all paranoia and tinfoil set aside, that if slots were 'our' version of random and played beautifully, there would still have to be deviations in gameplay for some players. As much as I'd like to win on every spin, simple law of averages tells me that several punters are having a terrible time.

Still doesn't make the bad, repetitive losing streaks any more bearable, but random is what random does, I guess

 

[Tourettesguy]

Btw - if you were a programmer and got a job at my company and it became obvious all the things you think you know are wrong... would you then admit it to yourself?! Or would you still think We were hiding things from you? And would you then come on here and say “Actually Guys, TM was right?”

First...Im not coming on some kind o meet with gambling addicts...lol

But sure I would say you were right if you were...maybe you think you are but missing what the real outcome of the gameplay gets...for ex that Dunover video of the 3x3 block crashing down on same spot 2 spins in a row and milluions of spins before and after and you probably wont see that block anywhere.
And then I would force you to make spins that is not pre-determined...and I would put in real random values in the RNG...for ex you could let the tempature outside the window be one value to just make the RNG random...or the air preassure..one number in the current date...not like some days you win or at some temperature outside you win...but to scramble the numbers some more. I think you know what I mean.
As you know Ive been playing Yggrasil game for a long time...won alot and lsot some..dont question hte fairness but the way the reels act...its liek of 1 millions theoretical combos hos the symbols show on the reels only 1/10 of that is availible so see...and I would not make slots like Vikings Go Berzerk and when you finally hit Ragnarök spins all of a sudden the viking symbols gets very very VERY rare during free spins...last time I won 250 coins on a 7 free spins Ragnarök feature...you will never ever get that low win during "normal" 7 free spins...lowst ive got is like 350-400....normal around 1000 and 2000-3000 coins now and then...for 7 spins. That is pure riggage..that wound be legal if I was in charge...NO change in symbols or wild appearce depending of what kidn of feature you hit... Other software liek Microgamign and probably all softwares suffor from this...if you get a huge free game multiplier you will ofcoarse get lower win on the reels during that feature.
Btw what softwares are you fimiliar with and/or been working on?

And these last spins so called "balance saver"-spins....those are not random when they often occor to be so extremely huge... Something in the programming make this to happen too often, Im sure you know something about this "litte program" handling this phenoenom tiem to time. If soemthing triggers these "balance saver" time to time...what else in the software have its own litte steering mechanism depending of player balance,deposits and other kinds of history...like session time and more...and more?

 

[dionysus]

I'd really have hoped 2018 wed see less tinfoil hatters.
But then I probably say this every new year.

 

[trancemonkey]

First...Im not coming on some kind o meet with gambling addicts...lol

But sure I would say you were right if you were...maybe you think you are but missing what the real outcome of the gameplay gets...for ex that Dunover video of the 3x3 block crashing down on same spot 2 spins in a row and milluions of spins before and after and you probably wont see that block anywhere.
And then I would force you to make spins that is not pre-determined...and I would put in real random values in the RNG...for ex you could let the tempature outside the window be one value to just make the RNG random...or the air preassure..one number in the current date...not like some days you win or at some temperature outside you win...but to scramble the numbers some more. I think you know what I mean.
As you know Ive been playing Yggrasil game for a long time...won alot and lsot some..dont question hte fairness but the way the reels act...its liek of 1 millions theoretical combos hos the symbols show on the reels only 1/10 of that is availible so see...and I would not make slots like Vikings Go Berzerk and when you finally hit Ragnarök spins all of a sudden the viking symbols gets very very VERY rare during free spins...last time I won 250 coins on a 7 free spins Ragnarök feature...you will never ever get that low win during "normal" 7 free spins...lowst ive got is like 350-400....normal around 1000 and 2000-3000 coins now and then...for 7 spins. That is pure riggage..that wound be legal if I was in charge...NO change in symbols or wild appearce depending of what kidn of feature you hit... Other software liek Microgamign and probably all softwares suffor from this...if you get a huge free game multiplier you will ofcoarse get lower win on the reels during that feature.
Btw what softwares are you fimiliar with and/or been working on?

And these last spins so called "balance saver"-spins....those are not random when they often occor to be so extremely huge... Something in the programming make this to happen too often, Im sure you know something about this "litte program" handling this phenoenom tiem to time. If soemthing triggers these "balance saver" time to time...what else in the software have its own litte steering mechanism depending of player balance,deposits and other kinds of history...like session time and more...and more?

They are random and there are no balance savers...

 

[greylady]

You can't win trancemonkey as your responses are based on your experiences and expertise as a slot developer - not on fact, which is a reality that cannot logically be disputed or rejected, without concrete evidence your responses will always be questioned - this is not a criticism of you but what we as humans are conditioned to do

 

[Tourettesguy]

They are random and there are no balance savers...

Why no vikings come during Ragnarök spins then...also random?

 

[brianmon]

Why no vikings come during Ragnarök spins then...also random?

Most games use different reels for features, and the base game

 

[trancemonkey]

You can't win trancemonkey as your responses are based on your experiences and expertise as a slot developer - not on fact, which is a reality that cannot logically be disputed or rejected, without concrete evidence your responses will always be questioned - this is not a criticism of you but what we as humans are conditioned to do

So you're telling me I don't know any facts about the way slot games work or the games I've made or the companies I've worked for or with?

Are you seriously suggesting that my testimony is worthless because i won't show you the code you know I can't show you - and even if I did people would claim is fixed the code?

I hope you're never a juror... you would ignore every witness statement according to your logic here.

But fair enough... then I guess it's time for me to leave this forum as it is clear that expertise means nothing and more weight is given to the people who spout the most shit.

Enjoy it everyone... Ciao

 

[slotmaster]

Teeheee, Everyone is having a great day EH. Mine has gotten no better so don't feel alone.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Most games use different reels for features, and the base game

You mean different reels when you get 7 Ragnarök spins compared to 7 spins of the other 4 types (I think)? Whne there is a starting wild/ 1 or 2 extra spins or wild reel or extra chests you see many viking on first spins instantly....on ragnarök you get 5 spins free of vikings and the maybe one or 2 at last spins...lol... noot random!

Cheating is another word for it...and rigged is also a word for it...lol...and so much for "why would we(programmers) rigg the softweare? What do we benfit from doin that?" still you use different reels....why?? haha

 

[greylady]

So you're telling me I don't know any facts about the way slot games work or the games I've made or the companies I've worked for or with?

Are you seriously suggesting that my testimony is worthless because i won't show you the code you know I can't show you - and even if I did people would claim is fixed the code?

I hope you're never a juror... you would ignore every witness statement according to your logic here.

But fair enough... then I guess it's time for me to leave this forum as it is clear that expertise means nothing and more weight is given to the people who spout the most shit.

Enjoy it everyone... Ciao

Apologies, I obviously didn't explain myself very well and in no way was I calling you a liar, nor questioning your expertise. I was trying to get across that logically, us as humans have a tendency to question everything that is not evident or evidence based to us, yes you can share your expertise but it's open to persuasion as most of us don't have the knowledge or expertise you have and neither have we seen it for ourselves - I base fact on what I see i.e if someone told me aliens had landed in their back garden I wouldn't believe them until I saw it for myself. I in no way called you a liar, it was more based on human nature and our habit to question everything we don't have a concrete answer (backed up with evidence) to.

I know what I am trying to say but maybe I am just not making myself clear

 

[trancemonkey]

Apologies, I obviously didn't explain myself very well and in no way was I calling you a liar, nor questioning your expertise. I was trying to get across that logically, us as humans have a tendency to question everything that is not evident or evidence based to us, yes you can share your expertise but it's open to persuasion as most of us don't have the knowledge or expertise you have and neither have we seen it for ourselves - I base fact on what I see i.e if someone told me aliens had landed in their back garden I wouldn't believe them until I saw it for myself. I in no way called you a liar, it was more based on human nature and our habit to question everything we don't have a concrete answer (backed up with evidence) to.

I know what I am trying to say but maybe I am just not making myself clear

Ok understood... thanks for the explanation..

 

[trancemonkey]

You mean different reels when you get 7 Ragnarök spins compared to 7 spins of the other 4 types (I think)? Whne there is a starting wild/ 1 or 2 extra spins or wild reel or extra chests you see many viking on first spins instantly....on ragnarök you get 5 spins free of vikings and the maybe one or 2 at last spins...lol... noot random!

Cheating is another word for it...and rigged is also a word for it...lol...and so much for "why would we(programmers) rigg the softweare? What do we benfit from doin that?" still you use different reels....why?? haha

Because TG that is the way maths works... For features to work in certain ways we have to use different reels, different maths...

 

[interlog]

Because TG that is the way maths works... For features to work in certain ways we have to use different reels, different maths...

But as a player you would expect the features to play the same, not different because you made the effort of progressing through them, sometimes at great expense.

I fully understand that some feel that it is rigged and scripted.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Because TG that is the way maths works... For features to work in certain ways we have to use different reels, different maths...

Sure there are no ordinary wilds during free spisn but that with how math works is really BS...Stupidest explanation ever...why bother having a Ragnarök free spins in this case? The software/casino are suppose to lose some money when the player for once hit Ragnarök spins...so let the viking come and form wild like they do normally. It math is hard change programmers...lol whatta joke!

 

[Bloatgoat]

So Trancemonkey, can you show us some demo's of your work? I know there are free plays of various slots online. I'd like to see a part of your work. For me to understand a little better what's on the dev side rather then players side.

Back to the subject "why would the industry tamper with any settings" .. I know some landbased casino's set their slots a little more tight during the day and a little more lose during the night. This is to somehow compensate the high limit players. They have the ability for this. We see this as well at small casino's in Germany where the night is usually more tight compared to during the day. I know it's something you proberly would not agree to but it's actually happening. Germany is a worse country anyways; their slots are set to an avg of 60% RTP! This is in the non-official state casino's. I know someone as well who used to work for these type of places (make sure the guests get their drinks and so on). She said the moment a new owner came around all slots where set from 75% back to 60% in order to earn back the investment.

I know casino's cant tamper with their slots without being penalised for this due to their licence, but they can actually program certain ways, behaviours or differences in times of the day. At night online is a more worse experience then from 08:00 ~ 13:00.

I've seen this at my own landbased casino as well. Year ago i'd slam various jackpots on avg 3 to 4 grand. These days it's much more harder and the avg is 1000 to 1750. And after 2 times the slot goes back to being ice-cold again. I think it's due to they dont want big players raping up the machines.

 

[trancemonkey]

So Trancemonkey, can you show us some demo's of your work? I know there are free plays of various slots online. I'd like to see a part of your work. For me to understand a little better what's on the dev side rather then players side.

Back to the subject "why would the industry tamper with any settings" .. I know some landbased casino's set their slots a little more tight during the day and a little more lose during the night. This is to somehow compensate the high limit players. They have the ability for this. We see this as well at small casino's in Germany where the night is usually more tight compared to during the day. I know it's something you proberly would not agree to but it's actually happening. Germany is a worse country anyways; their slots are set to an avg of 60% RTP! This is in the non-official state casino's. I know someone as well who used to work for these type of places (make sure the guests get their drinks and so on). She said the moment a new owner came around all slots where set from 75% back to 60% in order to earn back the investment.

I know casino's cant tamper with their slots without being penalised for this due to their licence, but they can actually program certain ways, behaviours or differences in times of the day. At night online is a more worse experience then from 08:00 ~ 13:00.

I've seen this at my own landbased casino as well. Year ago i'd slam various jackpots on avg 3 to 4 grand. These days it's much more harder and the avg is 1000 to 1750. And after 2 times the slot goes back to being ice-cold again. I think it's due to they dont want big players raping up the machines.

I assume your talking about the AWPs in Germany because no slot manufacturers do RTPs that low. The lowest I have ever done is 85% and that a for the lowest RTP markets in the world.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Yes the "non-officlal" gambling places, they are called "Spielhalle" in germany. They licence these machines from vendors and they can decide what the RTP is on such machines. This requires to change the chip / eeprom only done by those vendors. If they mess with it themself it's losing their licence.

And yes, RTP of 60% is true. But what wonders me the most; if every spin on these machines would be genuine and such... I once saw some owner coming in, emptying the machines (cash / coins) and left it without hardly any cash inside of it. This means that the counter got somehow reset. And there is no way the machine is giving out a price that large that exceeds what's inside of the machine currently. Oh and on top of that, there's a limit of 500 euro each hour as in payout, so if you'd won 800 for example you'd have to wait 1.5 hour basicly for the money to transfer from credits to actual money > payout. It's bullshit lol.

In spielhalle this is different from what i understood; if a machine gave out a price / payout and there was'nt sufficient money inside the machine, personal had to manually refill it untill the payout was recieved. It's standalone machines rather then landbased casino where they'd handpay you.

Germany has very strict rules as well. There's a hard limit on playing time (1 hour) which includes 5 minutes 'break' where the machine would be locked. There's a hard limit on the amount of money entering the machine in one hour, i believe it's in between 60 and 80 euro. There's another limit on how fast the money gets dispatched from inserting a bill to the amount of 'credits' you can play.

Ridiculous if you ask me. But it's regulation and in this year 2018 it seems that they would be enforcing much more stronger rules from here on. Less spielhalle in every city or town etc.

As i said, they have various tricks. Online does'nt differ much if you ask me. Casino's want sticking players, not players who come in, deposit and cash out a large sum. So they have tricks to keep players as long as possible.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes the "non-officlal" gambling places, they are called "Spielhalle" in germany. They licence these machines from vendors and they can decide what the RTP is on such machines. This requires to change the chip / eeprom only done by those vendors. If they mess with it themself it's losing their licence.

And yes, RTP of 60% is true. But what wonders me the most; if every spin on these machines would be genuine and such... I once saw some owner coming in, emptying the machines (cash / coins) and left it without hardly any cash inside of it. This means that the counter got somehow reset. And there is no way the machine is giving out a price that large that exceeds what's inside of the machine currently. Oh and on top of that, there's a limit of 500 euro each hour as in payout, so if you'd won 800 for example you'd have to wait 1.5 hour basicly for the money to transfer from credits to actual money > payout. It's bullshit lol.

In spielhalle this is different from what i understood; if a machine gave out a price / payout and there was'nt sufficient money inside the machine, personal had to manually refill it untill the payout was recieved. It's standalone machines rather then landbased casino where they'd handpay you.

Germany has very strict rules as well. There's a hard limit on playing time (1 hour) which includes 5 minutes 'break' where the machine would be locked. There's a hard limit on the amount of money entering the machine in one hour, i believe it's in between 60 and 80 euro. There's another limit on how fast the money gets dispatched from inserting a bill to the amount of 'credits' you can play.

Ridiculous if you ask me. But it's regulation and in this year 2018 it seems that they would be enforcing much more stronger rules from here on. Less spielhalle in every city or town etc.

As i said, they have various tricks. Online does'nt differ much if you ask me. Casino's want sticking players, not players who come in, deposit and cash out a large sum. So they have tricks to keep players as long as possible.

I think the spielhalles are on their way out anyway...

 

[Bloatgoat]

Yes they are. There where too many in various city's and / or towns. Germany has simular to the UK alot of playing addicts. It's only 400.000 registered people who have a serious gambling problem.

It's too obvious as well. They can set the RTP to 60% and a spielhalle with 8 to 12 machines is a good profit if you'd have the place full everyday. But i never liked the german gaming offer anyways. The games will make you go braindead noting how many spins it takes before some fucking bonus happens.

 

[slotmaster]

I assume your talking about the AWPs in Germany because no slot manufacturers do RTPs that low. The lowest I have ever done is 85% and that a for the lowest RTP markets in the world.

Hi from one of those markets.

 

[trancemonkey]

Sure there are no ordinary wilds during free spisn but that with how math works is really BS...Stupidest explanation ever...why bother having a Ragnarök free spins in this case? The software/casino are suppose to lose some money when the player for once hit Ragnarök spins...so let the viking come and form wild like they do normally. It math is hard change programmers...lol whatta joke!

I'm not defending Yggdrasil here... how they have done the maths is up to them. If the feature is shit then that's a different issue entirely. I'm just telling you why the reel bands are different.

Do you also complain that in DOA the number of wilds on the reels in the free spins is drastically lower than in the base game?

 

[trancemonkey]

So Trancemonkey, can you show us some demo's of your work? I know there are free plays of various slots online. I'd like to see a part of your work. For me to understand a little better what's on the dev side rather then players side.

Online games from me:

Fabric 4
Super Hot Fruits
Shamrock Lock
Centurion

Coral / William Hill are the sites you'll find them. I did these when I was at Inspired. They don't have a huge amount of exposure as they don't supply a lot of casinos.

 

[Bloatgoat]

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Install an adblocker btw. It looks very basic. And this is i think the difference in quality as i was saying before. You wont find these in landbased. I am not saying your work is no good, but i can tell the quality in between some games or simply bad knock offs from the original. With above i could design a slot myself too. It's not that hard. I work in Media business, adult. So you know where i am coming from. If i may advise you, please go for games that are FUN and STICK along with players. Playing slots is like an adventure in my beliefs and it should just as climbing a mountain be, a thrill. This is why i stick with certain games.