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Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

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Bloatgoat said:
I just did. "Close to truly random" ... So that RNG is not really random is it? It's all in the math i guess. If i'd spawn a random number generator in PHP or something close i can say it's genuine random. Now apply this to slots, how do you think the outcome would be?
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point.... The Mersenne-Twister is an industry standard tried and tested PRNG which creates no bias and has as close to random as a computer can get number distribution.

There are many scientific papers written about it. Feel free to read any of them and then explain to me why you think it un acceptable for us to use them?

I look forward to your researched, evidence based answer :)

By the way I'm still waiting on you to ask me the specific questions I apparently won't answer :)
 
interlog said:
Will he be able to randomly pick me out of the crowd and if he does, will it be rigged?
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I'll take a random guess. But rig it so I get it right
 
goatwack said:
If anyone has any more random/ rigged questions for Trancemonkey I will convey them at the Meistermeet, using the medium of contemporary dance :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

I will answer them using the medium of ballet :)
 
trancemonkey said:
I'll take a random guess. But rig it so I get it right
Click to expand...

Interlog dear friend... has this thread taught you nothing about "randomly rigged"? First i will obviously have to talk to all the other manufacturers just to make sure we are all rigging my decision in the same way.

I will also not slam stop my answer as then it would change ;)
 
trancemonkey said:
Interlog dear friend... has this thread taught you nothing about "randomly rigged"? First i will obviously have to talk to all the other manufacturers just to make sure we are all rigging my decision in the same way.

I will also not slam stop my answer as then it would change ;)
Click to expand...

Don't worry, Nick from Big Time Gaming is going too....... that'll make some talk!
 
dionysus said:
another way to see it is a bag if 10 beans. 6 white beans (loss)...3 red beans (win)...1 yellow bean (big win).
just because there's less a chance of pulling a yellow bean doesn't make any less random.
there's no need to control the outcome...odds are leaning toward the casino.
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This is a great example of something that isn't random!A selection process in which every item within a set has an equal chance of being chosen.I appreciate slots maybe as random as humanly possible but they will never be truly random.A slot could only be truly random if it was for amusement only and was designed to meet the following example.Keeping it simple.The rtp would have to 100%.you only have 2 symbols on each reel and there is 100 possible combinations.50 of them are losing ones and the other 50 pay 2x stake.Yes pretty pointless(like I said for amusement only) but that is as close to random as you can get.The further you deviate away from this the less random it becomes.Even tms coin flip which is most people's idea of random has been proved not to be truly random(although it's the smallest of margins).
 
snorky510238 said:
This is a great example of something that isn't random!A selection process in which every item within a set has an equal chance of being chosen.I appreciate slots maybe as random as humanly possible but they will never be truly random.A slot could only be truly random if it was for amusement only and was designed to meet the following example.Keeping it simple.The rtp would have to 100%.you only have 2 symbols on each reel and there is 100 possible combinations.50 of them are losing ones and the other 50 pay 2x stake.Yes pretty pointless(like I said for amusement only) but that is as close to random as you can get.The further you deviate away from this the less random it becomes.Even tms coin flip which is most people's idea of random has been proved not to be truly random(although it's the smallest of margins).
Click to expand...


For The gazillionth time.. random does not mean that the results that occur from picking random numbers are evenly distributed... or 100% RTP. What it means us that if we have 100 outcomes, the chance of each outcome (I.e each random number being picked) is equal. But what that result is is determined by the maths of the game.

In its simplest form 99 outcomes would be a lose and one would be a win.

That's how "randomly determined" works for slots...
 
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snorky510238 said:
This is a great example of something that isn't random!A selection process in which every item within a set has an equal chance of being chosen.I appreciate slots maybe as random as humanly possible but they will never be truly random.A slot could only be truly random if it was for amusement only and was designed to meet the following example.Keeping it simple.The rtp would have to 100%.you only have 2 symbols on each reel and there is 100 possible combinations.50 of them are losing ones and the other 50 pay 2x stake.Yes pretty pointless(like I said for amusement only) but that is as close to random as you can get.The further you deviate away from this the less random it becomes.Even tms coin flip which is most people's idea of random has been proved not to be truly random(although it's the smallest of margins).
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what the hell are you on about?

You have 10 beans, there's a 10% chance you pick any single one of them up. How is this not random?

Throw 2 dice, and 7 is the most common combination. Would you not agree this is random?

Random doesn't mean "You have the exact same chance of winning 0.25 times your bet as you have winning 7000 times your bet", random means both of them are available but you never know which one you will get
 
4048 said:
what the hell are you on about?

You have 10 beans, there's a 10% chance you pick any single one of them up. How is this not random?

Throw 2 dice, and 7 is the most common combination. Would you not agree this is random?

Random doesn't mean "You have the exact same chance of winning 0.25 times your bet as you have winning 7000 times your bet", random means both of them are available but you never know which one you will get
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It would be random if there was the same amount of each colour but there isn't.I take it you read the post I was replying too aswell.
 
snorky510238 said:
It would be random if there was the same amount of each colour but there isn't.I take it you read the post I was replying too aswell.
Click to expand...

I think you are not understanding what random means in terms of slot play. It is random because the outcome of each spin is randomly determined. There is no set sequence for example. Each possible combination that can be made by the reels has the same chance of occurring.
 
interlog said:
I think you are not understanding what random means in terms of slot play. It is random because the outcome of each spin is randomly determined. There is no set sequence for example. Each possible combination that can be made by the reels has the same chance of occurring.
Click to expand...
That is the exact reason that slots and random should not be used in the same sentence because they don't have the same chance of occurring due to the fact there is(for example only 1 jackpot symbol on each reel but for instance 5 kings on each reel).You have a much higher chance of hitting a line of kings.To be random every outcome has to have an equal chance to start with.
 
4048 said:
what the hell are you on about?

You have 10 beans, there's a 10% chance you pick any single one of them up. How is this not random?

Throw 2 dice, and 7 is the most common combination. Would you not agree this is random?

Random doesn't mean "You have the exact same chance of winning 0.25 times your bet as you have winning 7000 times your bet", random means both of them are available but you never know which one you will get
Click to expand...
Also the dice theory.The number that's face up is random I agree but the total equaling 7 isn't random at all because there are more combinations of 7 than any other total.
 
snorky510238 said:
That is the exact reason that slots and random should not be used in the same sentence because they don't have the same chance of occurring due to the fact there is(for example only 1 jackpot symbol on each reel but for instance 5 kings on each reel).You have a much higher chance of hitting a line of kings.To be random every outcome has to have an equal chance to start with.
Click to expand...

Well of course there are going to be more lower than higher paying symbols on the reels. If there is 1 jackpot outcome and 999,999 non jackpot outcomes when you press the spin button you can get that 1 jackpot on the first spin, maybe the 1,000th spin, maybe the 500th spin or perhaps after 2,000,000 spins. Isn't that random enough for you?
 
snorky510238 said:
Also the dice theory.The number that's face up is random I agree but the total equaling 7 isn't random at all because there are more combinations of 7 than any other total.
Click to expand...

Jeez... you really don't get the difference between random and equal distribution do you.

So when you roll a perfectly weighted set of two dice so there is no bias, are you suggesting that the outcome wasn't fairly chosen? The fact that 7 occurs more often doesn't change the fact the throw of the dice was fair and therefore the outcome randomly chosen from all possibilities of which there are 36 different options.

When you throw the dice one of those options is chosen randomly..

The fact that more options will show a 7 does not make the throw of the dice not random. I really struggle to see how you can't see that...
 
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trancemonkey said:
Jeez... you really don't get the difference between random and equal distribution do you.

So when you roll a perfectly weighted set of two dice so there is no bias, are you suggesting that the outcome wasn't fairly chosen? The fact that 7 occurs more often doesn't change the fact the throw of the dice was fair and therefore the outcome randomly chosen from all possibilities of which there are 36 different options.

When you throw the dice one of those options is chosen randomly..

The fact that more options will show a 7 does not make the throw of the dice not random. I really struggle to see how you can't see that...
Click to expand...
trancemonkey said:
Jeez... you really don't get the difference between random and equal distribution do you.

So when you roll a perfectly weighted set of two dice so there is no bias, are you suggesting that the outcome wasn't fairly chosen? The fact that 7 occurs more often doesn't change the fact the throw of the dice was fair and therefore the outcome randomly chosen from all possibilities of which there are 36 different options.

When you throw the dice one of those options is chosen randomly..

The fact that more options will show a 7 does not make the throw of the dice not random. I really struggle to see how you can't see that...
Click to expand...
That is why you can't mix outcomes with random they are not compatible.The roll of the dice is random but the outcome is not.Every outcome has to have an equal chance to begin with to be considered random.Which it doesn't 7 has a distinct advantage.
 
snorky510238 said:
That is why you can't mix outcomes with random they are not compatible.The roll of the dice is random but the outcome is not.Every outcome has to have an equal chance to begin with to be considered random.Which it doesn't 7 has a distinct advantage.
Click to expand...

You just contradicted yourself.. You said the roll of the dice is random. But then you said to be random every outcome has to have an equal chance.

With your logic, rolling one dice gives a random decision. Rolling two dice does not. You realise that makes no sense right? Does that not strike you as odd?

And you see the outcome WAS chosen at random... There are 36 possible outcomes from the roll of two dice..

1 and 1
1 and 2
1 and 3
Etc...

The TOTAL of the two dice is the sum of the two random dice.

You have to try and get your head around the difference between something that is randomly determined and the result of that determination.

Rolling two dice will give a totally random decision. The total of the two dice however is biased towards 7 but that DOES NOT MEAN that the dice were not randomly rolled.

Every outcome DID have the same chance of being rolled. You had as much chance as rolling a 1 on the first dice and a 1 on the second dice as you did rolling a 4 on the first dice and a 5 on the second.

I'll repeat again in case you have missed the point...

A random decision does NOT mean a random outcome. This is where you simply don't understand the situation.

Or maybe you do... But then you say random means evenly distributed which it most certainly does not.
 
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trancemonkey said:
But the outcome was chosen at random... There are 36 possible outcomes from the roll of two dice..

1 and 1
1 and 2
1 and 3
Etc...

The TOTAL of the two dice is the sum of the two random dice.

You have to try and get your head around the difference between something that is randomly determined and the result of that determination.

Rolling two dice will give a totally random outcome. The total of the two dice however is biased towards 7 but that DOES NOT MEAN that the dice were not randomly rolled.

Every outcome DID have the same chance of being rolled. You had as much chance as rolling a 1 on the first dice and a 1 on the second dice as you did rolling a 4 on the first dice and a 5 on the second.

With your logic, rolling one dice gives a random decision. Rolling two dice does not. You realise that makes no sense right? Does that not strike you as odd?

I'll repeat again in case you have missed the point...

A random decision does NOT mean a random outcome. This is where you simply don't understand the situation.
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You are missing the point.I understand the two numbers face up are random.The outcome or total whatever you want to call it isn't random.If it was over a set amount of throws(choose any amount you want)all totals would theoretically balance at some point.With 7 having a statistical advantage then 6 and 8 next so on down to 2 and 12 theoretically it will never balance.In conclusion to be considered random every outcome must have an equal chance to begin with.The fact that there is only 1 chance of rolling 12 and 6 ways to roll 7 means this does not fall within the category of having a random outcome.
 
snorky510238 said:
You are missing the point.I understand the two numbers face up are random.The outcome or total whatever you want to call it isn't random.If it was over a set amount of throws(choose any amount you want)all totals would theoretically balance at some point.With 7 having a statistical advantage then 6 and 8 next so on down to 2 and 12 theoretically it will never balance.In conclusion to be considered random every outcome must have an equal chance to begin with.The fact that there is only 1 chance of rolling 12 and 6 ways to roll 7 means this does not fall within the category of having a random outcome.
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Ok we are just going round in circles. We will have to agree to disagree. I know what the definition of random is within the way we have to use it. I also know that random does not mean equally distributed. You're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it is :)

You're contradicting yourself in every post now. You accept the roll if the dice is random but because the outcome is not evenly distributed the dice aren't random. Crazy.

I understand why you think that but it's just plain wrong.
 
trancemonkey said:
Ok we are just going round in circles. We will have to agree to disagree. I know what the definition of random is within the way we have to use it. I also know that random does not mean equally distributed. You're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it is :)

You're contradicting yourself in every post now. You accept the roll if the dice is random but because the outcome is not evenly distributed the dice aren't random. Crazy.

I understand why you think that but it's just plain wrong.
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Check the definition of random
 
There are luck slots and us,I asked an employee in a Casino once what the biggest chance of winning is,he told me the only way to have the highest chance of winning is play maximum lines at the highest bet possible
 
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ferminkuipers said:
There are luck slots and us,I asked an employee in a Casino once what the biggest chance of winning is,he told me the only way to have the highest chance of winning is play maximum lines at the highest bet possible
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Absolute load of rubbish unless you're playing a Mega Jackpots game...

I wonder why the casino would want you to play at the highest possible bet :)
 
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I dont recommend it,I always play 10 euro,10 cents per bet,20 euro 20 cents per bet,etc,and seldom higher then 2 euro per bet
 
snorky510238 said:
Check the definition of random
Click to expand...

random
ˈrandəm/
adjective
adjective: random
  1. 1.
    made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
    "apparently random violence"
    • STATISTICS
      governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
      "a random sample of 100 households"
      synonyms: unsystematic, arbitrary, unmethodical, haphazard, unarranged, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, non-specific, stray, erratic; More
      chance, accidental, hit-and-miss;
      serendipitous, fortuitous, contingent, adventitious;
      non-linear, entropic, fractal;
      rarealeatory, stochastic
      "random spot checks"
      antonyms: systematic, planned
So as I've said every possible outcome has an equal chance, but not every outcome is different.

Now I've shown the dictionary definition of random, can we put this to bed now...
 
trancemonkey said:
random
ˈrandəm/
adjective
adjective: random
  1. 1.
    made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
    "apparently random violence"
    • STATISTICS
      governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
      "a random sample of 100 households"
      synonyms: unsystematic, arbitrary, unmethodical, haphazard, unarranged, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, non-specific, stray, erratic; More
      chance, accidental, hit-and-miss;
      serendipitous, fortuitous, contingent, adventitious;
      non-linear, entropic, fractal;
      rarealeatory, stochastic
      "random spot checks"
      antonyms: systematic, planned
So as I've said every possible outcome has an equal chance, but not every outcome is different.

Now I've shown the dictionary definition of random, can we put this to bed now...
Click to expand...
I am with You,every chance is the same chance
 
It might have been asked earlier, but I ask it anyway.

Let's take the following example: you release a new slot, then the first day a player with big pocket hit the max payout with the max allowed bet in their first spin. The actual RTP will be sky high (like 40000%) then they immediately stop playing. How could you maintain the advertised TRTP? If it is purely random, so the bet size would not be taken into account how the casino will be in profit with that slot?
I think your argument is that it would even out, but what if not? So the slot would not be popular and the player who hit big would never play it again and noone else would ever make max bets?

On the same topic.
How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).
 
The problem is there is not a prediction that tells You if the slot is paying out,every spin has the same chance and is independant from all the spins before and after,theoratically You could hit a jackpot 2 times in a row
 
that is not all,if a Casino makes no profit there would not be Casinos at all,there is a chance You are lucky if You play,and win,the chance that You hit the jackpot at Eurojackpot is 1:250.000000
A ticket is 2 euro
 
stokes said:
It might have been asked earlier, but I ask it anyway.

Let's take the following example: you release a new slot, then the first day a player with big pocket hit the max payout with the max allowed bet in their first spin. The actual RTP will be sky high (like 40000%) then they immediately stop playing. How could you maintain the advertised TRTP? If it is purely random, so the bet size would not be taken into account how the casino will be in profit with that slot?
I think your argument is that it would even out, but what if not? So the slot would not be popular and the player who hit big would never play it again and noone else would ever make max bets?

On the same topic.
How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).
Click to expand...
the ratings You are talking about are a moment,they change every spin,the only way to determine if a slot is paying out is to start playing and see what the slot does.if the slot does nothing You leave and go to another.Always stay looking at the slots what they do,that is the only guideline You have a little bit
 
stokes said:
It might have been asked earlier, but I ask it anyway.

Let's take the following example: you release a new slot, then the first day a player with big pocket hit the max payout with the max allowed bet in their first spin. The actual RTP will be sky high (like 40000%) then they immediately stop playing. How could you maintain the advertised TRTP? If it is purely random, so the bet size would not be taken into account how the casino will be in profit with that slot?
I think your argument is that it would even out, but what if not? So the slot would not be popular and the player who hit big would never play it again and noone else would ever make max bets?

On the same topic.
How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).
Click to expand...

This has come up before... But yes it's perfectly plausible (and does happen) that some slots never make a casino any money in cases like this.

But the popular slots cover these losses. It's all on the law of large numbers really :)
 
trancemonkey said:
This has come up before... But yes it's perfectly plausible (and does happen) that some slots never make a casino any money in cases like this.

But the popular slots cover these losses. It's all on the law of large numbers really :)
Click to expand...
I agree ,I think that is the case also,some slots are more popular then others also,most certainly
 
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trancemonkey said:
This has come up before... But yes it's perfectly plausible (and does happen) that some slots never make a casino any money in cases like this.

But the popular slots cover these losses. It's all on the law of large numbers really :)
Click to expand...

OK, then the answer to my second question [On the same topic.How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).] is that in other casinos the RTP is higher?
 
stokes said:
OK, then the answer to my second question [On the same topic.How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).] is that in other casinos the RTP is higher?
Click to expand...
that is a good question ,I would not know the answer to that question
 
trancemonkey said:
random
ˈrandəm/
adjective
adjective: random
  1. 1.
    made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
    "apparently random violence"
    • STATISTICS
      governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
      "a random sample of 100 households"
      synonyms: unsystematic, arbitrary, unmethodical, haphazard, unarranged, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, non-specific, stray, erratic; More
      chance, accidental, hit-and-miss;
      serendipitous, fortuitous, contingent, adventitious;
      non-linear, entropic, fractal;
      rarealeatory, stochastic
      "random spot checks"
      antonyms: systematic, planned
So as I've said every possible outcome has an equal chance, but not every outcome is different.

Now I've shown the dictionary definition of random, can we put this to bed now...
Click to expand...

now change the rtp percent for more dead spins and call it random again
 
suchfun said:
when you can control the outcome how is it random??
Click to expand...

No matter how many times it's explained to you you still don't get it... we can only explain the same thing so many times...

We don't control the RNG... it is still picking a random result. When we do different RTP of a game we change many parameters ... maybe the paytable slightly. Maybe the length of a reel bands and the distribution or frequency of the symbols. But the outcome is still randomly chosen. If each reel had 64 position it would still chose numbers between 1 and 64.

The symbols at those positions may be different on different versions of the game but the pick was still random.

If you don't understand it now that's tough as it's the last time I'm explaining it
 
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EkJR said:
What about the “near miss” situation? I would like to know how this fits into a random number generator
Click to expand...

What near miss situation? Are you talking about getting two scatters?
 
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