Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[snorky510238]

Croupiers would have a tendency to stay within a batch of numbers, though it's not an exact science. Punters would amend their bets based on who took up the reins, although in my case it was hit or miss......especially when dealing left-handed. It was more a case of Pew! there goes the ball across the gaming floor to hit the old Chinese lady in the corner

If that's not random, I don't know what is

Actually you may have contradicted yourself there saying it always hits the Chinese lady in the corner I am thinking how is that random but then given the fact there is so many of them your probably right lol

 

[snorky510238]

I'm going to say something here that you won't a) believe and b) agree with...

I had to give a talk to the UKGC a long time ago where I argued (successfully) that software roulette is actually more fair than live roulette.
They accepted the reasoning...

Why? Because a good croupier can get the ball to land in certain areas of the wheel more often than others. In other words, croupiers are NOT 100% random.
Software is simply:

Roulette.Outcome = GetRandomRange(0,36);

You don't have to believe that - but it's fact

When you convinced them how much had they been drinking!!!!!.So I think I am about right on a single zero wheel the house keeps 2.6%.If software roulette is fairer what percentage does that keep?

 

[trancemonkey]

I would take programmed software to beat a croupier in a challenge of how to rob the punters blind.Like you said the croupier can spin to a section of the wheel software can pick an exact number

Yeah - but software doesn't (unless you play on some rogue casino - in which case i can't vouch for that)...
I understand what you're saying - you can't know 100% unless you trust the regulator, software provider, test-lab and operator right?
And you can SEE a croupier in action - nothing is hidden (apart from their skill perhaps)

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes certainly it's pretty random they can't allow for unexpected deflections and so forth but I have seen inexperienced croupiers have their sessions cut short a few times when a big hitter has cottoned onto the fact they are struggling to get out of a certain section.They are quickly replaced usually by the "demon" croup in the house.

So basically what you're saying is you accept it's not random....

 

[trancemonkey]

Have to say it again, slots are sometimes not random at all, and they are truly rigged, its a lottery and you just have to be there at the right time to win and it feels your game history and it will try keeping you below 100% payout nomatter how other players are doin.
For ex..today I play Reactuums...Playn Go go... Ive won on it sometimes and lost on it. But what this session showed me, proves it truly is rigged and not at all random. €2 spins session....ofcoarse I did not fill all 5 glasses to release the big WILD monster...sometimes you dont on a session..nothing strange..but 3 times in the session I filled 4 of them the 5th to about 99%...ofcoarse...THAT is not random, its pure evel rigged. Also this session was extrmely low in payout...and did not change..which also indicates its NOT random...and ALL the few glasses filled that suppose to help to win more and maybe reach the big WILD...did not help at all, more like the opposite every time. It was liek the slot ha made up its mind from the time I entered it...nothing was random, and everything behaved in a very rigged way all the time. This really pisses me of when people say its just random..

And a question...soem here say "the slot doenst know what the current bet is" when you play and you win more on small bets and lose on bigger bets...I dont have an oppion on that but if it did know, how could the software keep track of the player average payout? Lets say you win €10000 on a single crazy €10/bet... 1000x you bet... you are then €9990 ahead... if the slot didnt know anyhting you could in theory continue betting €0,10/spin for a looong time to let the slot compensate that 1000x bet win until youve lost €100..(1000x the bet) but ofcoarse the slot know you still are €8900 ahead... The slot know ofcoarse, otherwise games would be unfair and to risky for the casino.

Ahh yes the "it didn't go my way so it must be rigged" thought process...

So, TG - please explain to me how you think all us providers (who are competitors) work together to rig across many casinos (who are also competitors) just to provide players with a terrible experience and make money off them, even though mathematically the casinos and providers would still make money if it wasn't rigged? Also - please explain how the slot knows exactly how much money you will play through it in order to be able to perfectly rig / compensate your session - or are you also suggesting we use telepathy to keep you playing until exactly the point where you've lost exactly what we need. Do you think we also sit their programming these "rigged games" thinking - "we must make sure that some people have really really bad sessions to compensate for the really good ones - that won't piss them off at all!".

Also, to your second point - and you won't believe this either so i'm not sure why i'm going to bother here, but i'm a nice guy - there are games on sites that have NEVER made the casino a penny. For exactly the reason you give - a high roller, playing at £500 a spin comes in, hits a huge win (say £250k) early on and cashes out. Then, because actually the game is rubbish, not that many people play it - and those that do play on low stakes... This game will likely never make that money back. Ever. Because to do so it would have to have £5,000,000 of play just to break even if it's running at 95%.

BTW - Do you also believe the world is flat? Chemtrails are real? 9/11? Trump is not racist?

 

[trancemonkey]

When you convinced them how much had they been drinking!!!!!.So I think I am about right on a single zero wheel the house keeps 2.6%.If software roulette is fairer what percentage does that keep?

I truly random single zero roulette would keep 2.7%

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok please tell me what information a rng sends to a slot to determine the outcome of a spin

The client (the thing on your computer) sends a spin request to the server. This contains your player ID (for wallet purposes), your bet size, and any other information the server needs in order to determine the outcome of the spin.

The server then requests one, or more, random numbers from the RNG. The only thing the RNG does is spit out random numbers permanently... it is totally dumb to anything else. The server then uses these numbers however the game logic (game design) requires it to do so. The server then sends the spin result to the client (the bit you see) and the client displays the result. Simples

 

[goatwack]

I always believed that some sentient AI programme had full access to your details and play history and adjusted accordingly, a la The Matrix.

Then I realized how silly that sounds, it wasn't The Matrix. It's Skynet instead

 

[snorky510238]

I truly random single zero roulette would keep 2.7%

Ok so what % does software roulette keep?

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok so what % does software roulette keep?

The exact mathematical house edge... same as a truly random table (live) version will. There is no difference.

Roulette is not as volatile as you might think because most people spread their chips all over the board so there is just no need to rig it. Random behaviour is perfectly ok for all casino games.

Humans naturally look for patterns in things where there are none...

 

[Bloatgoat]

I would like to adress one bit. My favorite game is Kronos on landbased and online. however online differs alot from the original, a discussion aside. I like the game due to it's basicly '2 games in 1'. You have the normal rheels when you spin that appear on screen, and you could stop the rheels before it's even landed given a complete different outcome.

I know people in here going to declare me being delusional but i dont believe it. I actually had a chance on that outcome:



Watch me slam it into spin 2.

If i did'nt do nothing, the game would continue as 'normal' and proberly not hit that line. I got a few friends of me who play online as well. They are chasing the very simular way(s) as i was back in the days when i played online. It's always the same song. The thing does'nt hit when playing normal, the thing only hits when you slam the rheels even before it landed. It seems to give alot 'more' action in return then when playing normal. Here is the thing. It always keeps my friends artifical on a certain amount of money, it does'nt look like they cant exceed for example, 150$ while tossing in 100$.

So are these slots 'controlled' ? In my opinion yes. There is nothing you can do to 'exceed' that 150$ for some reason. It is and it will always be, working within parameters. I am very confident that other players in here can clarify what i am writing, without being on the dev side. As i said before, i have way more luck playing landbased rather then online.

 

[paul7388]

Are you seriously saying you only got that win because you touched the screen

 

[Bloatgoat]

I stopped the rheels. Please pay attention.

 

[interlog]

Are you seriously saying you only got that win because you touched the screen

And he, again, misleadingly calls it a jackpot. I have had bigger hits than 195x online. In fact, I have had full screens a few times for the true jackpot.

 

[interlog]

Have to say it again, slots are sometimes not random at all, and they are truly rigged, its a lottery and you just have to be there at the right time to win and it feels your game history and it will try keeping you below 100% payout nomatter how other players are doin.
For ex..today I play Reactuums...Playn Go go... Ive won on it sometimes and lost on it. But what this session showed me, proves it truly is rigged and not at all random. €2 spins session....ofcoarse I did not fill all 5 glasses to release the big WILD monster...sometimes you dont on a session..nothing strange..but 3 times in the session I filled 4 of them the 5th to about 99%...ofcoarse...THAT is not random, its pure evel rigged. Also this session was extrmely low in payout...and did not change..which also indicates its NOT random...and ALL the few glasses filled that suppose to help to win more and maybe reach the big WILD...did not help at all, more like the opposite every time. It was liek the slot ha made up its mind from the time I entered it...nothing was random, and everything behaved in a very rigged way all the time. This really pisses me of when people say its just random..

And a question...soem here say "the slot doenst know what the current bet is" when you play and you win more on small bets and lose on bigger bets...I dont have an oppion on that but if it did know, how could the software keep track of the player average payout? Lets say you win €10000 on a single crazy €10/bet... 1000x you bet... you are then €9990 ahead... if the slot didnt know anyhting you could in theory continue betting €0,10/spin for a looong time to let the slot compensate that 1000x bet win until youve lost €100..(1000x the bet) but ofcoarse the slot know you still are €8900 ahead... The slot know ofcoarse, otherwise games would be unfair and to risky for the casino.

I stopped reading when you said Reactoonz.

That game is not rigged.... it is just gawd damn awful.

 

[paul7388]

I stopped the rheels. Please pay attention.

Touched the screen, stopped the reels whatever.

And you truly believe doing that gave you the win as if you had not it would not have came in.

Okay

 

[Sonict]

Slots are not "Skill" based games by design so touching the screen to stop that "spin" early is worthless IMO. The only reason you can do it is to make you feel like you have control or you want to get through the spins faster.

 

[trancemonkey]

Slots are not "Skill" based games by design so touching the screen to stop that "spin" early is worthless IMO. The only reason you can do it is to make you feel like you have control or you want to get through the spins faster.

Bloatgoat is my perfect customer... he thinks he can control the outcome by "skillstopping" the reels.

In markets where it's allowed, we put the "slam stop" on the machine specifically for this kind of reason - so trust me he's not alone in his theory. It's exactly what we want people to think - which is great!

Little inside tip for you - it doesn't (and can't) make a difference. If you COULD influence the reels, it would be a game of skill. Games of skill are not allowed in many jurisdictions - Nevada have recently allowed them, but the skill part of the game can't account for more than a certain percentage of the RTP.

Plus if you COULD stop the reels skillfully, how would game recovery work - which needs to know the outcome of the spin the moment you press the START button...

Bloaty my friend - i salute you

 

[trancemonkey]

I would like to adress one bit. My favorite game is Kronos on landbased and online. however online differs alot from the original, a discussion aside. I like the game due to it's basicly '2 games in 1'. You have the normal rheels when you spin that appear on screen, and you could stop the rheels before it's even landed given a complete different outcome.

I know people in here going to declare me being delusional but i dont believe it. I actually had a chance on that outcome.

Can you also post video of all the times is doesn't work - and not just the one that "proves" it does

 

[snorky510238]

The exact mathematical house edge... same as a truly random table (live) version will. There is no difference.

Roulette is not as volatile as you might think because most people spread their chips all over the board so there is just no need to rig it. Random behaviour is perfectly ok for all casino games.

Humans naturally look for patterns in things where there are none...

Ok consider this consider this(felt a song coming on there)When FOBTS first came on the scene(there were no slots on them just roulette,bingo and a couple of other games)can you imagine the suppliers going to high street bookmakers and saying we have these new machines they are completely random and we will clear 2% after our expenses of which you can have half so you get to keep £10 out of every £1000 the bookies wouldn't have entertained them.If you could see a genuine profit spread sheet since they were introduced you would be shocked I guarantee it.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Bloatgoat is my perfect customer... he thinks he can control the outcome by "skillstopping" the reels.

In markets where it's allowed, we put the "slam stop" on the machine specifically for this kind of reason - so trust me he's not alone in his theory. It's exactly what we want people to think - which is great!

Little inside tip for you - it doesn't (and can't) make a difference. If you COULD influence the reels, it would be a game of skill. Games of skill are not allowed in many jurisdictions - Nevada have recently allowed them, but the skill part of the game can't account for more than a certain percentage of the RTP.

Plus if you COULD stop the reels skillfully, how would game recovery work - which needs to know the outcome of the spin the moment you press the START button...

Bloaty my friend - i salute you

Geezus. Please take a moment and listen to what i am saying. The game offers the traditional game + slam stop. Sometimes i get a feeling to simply slam stop and bam, i got a hit. It's just my guts telling me to slam stop it and it drops where it should be.

What you are saying is that people could control the outcome with slam stop at any given moment. This is not true. My example is simply i stopped it at the right moment. If i did not slam stop, i WOULD HAVE A DIFFENT OUTCOME. I dont believe either you can 'win' the game by constant slam stopping. You see, i believe that there is online functionality which includes slam stop and many times, it happens to give the three symbols for a bonus.

As i said before, one of my friend is bin exploiting that type of gameplay as well, but we both know it's more of a entertainment feature then it actually does something. We had a play a few hours a week or so ago and we constantly hitted bonusses by slam stop. It was'nt just doing great in those bonusses and kept us artificially, to a fee.

I am not your customer. I dont play online anymore. I never signed up again or i never reactivated my account. I have more discipline then you could imagine. But from my standpoint, online play is capped, controlled whatever you name it.

I remember being on 11500 euro's on my account. So i thought i'd exploit a litlte here and there in some slots. I simply could not hit anything at all. It's just capping me and there was a noticable lag on every spin i did. The slots wanted their money back. Tell me this Trancemonkey, is a online casino or a game provider able to 'cap' a player who's exceeded a big amount of money on his account? Can he / she exploit even further and double that 11k?

Proberly not. Here's where the constant losing streak comes into play. You dont tell me it's coincidence having a losing streak from 11 back to 7k. That's 4k on wasted spins. And the bets where in between 5 up to 15 a spin combined on various games.

Slots online are NOT genuine.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Can you also post video of all the times is doesn't work - and not just the one that "proves" it does

Spin 13 > but i always wonder what would happen if i've had'nt hit the slam-stop.

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok consider this consider this(felt a song coming on there)When FOBTS first came on the scene(there were no slots on them just roulette,bingo and a couple of other games)can you imagine the suppliers going to high street bookmakers and saying we have these new machines they are completely random and we will clear 2% after our expenses of which you can have half so you get to keep £10 out of every £1000 the bookies wouldn't have entertained them.If you could see a genuine profit spread sheet since they were introduced you would be shocked I guarantee it.

Yup - that's exactly what happened - BUT why do you think there are no so many other Roulette's on the terminals that DON'T run at 97.23%... it's to try and make more money.

 

[trancemonkey]

Spin 13 > but i always wonder what would happen if i've had'nt hit the slam-stop.

You'd have got exactly the same outcome

 

[trancemonkey]

Geezus. Please take a moment and listen to what i am saying. The game offers the traditional game + slam stop. Sometimes i get a feeling to simply slam stop and bam, i got a hit. It's just my guts telling me to slam stop it and it drops where it should be.

What you are saying is that people could control the outcome with slam stop at any given moment. This is not true. My example is simply i stopped it at the right moment. If i did not slam stop, i WOULD HAVE A DIFFENT OUTCOME. I dont believe either you can 'win' the game by constant slam stopping. You see, i believe that there is online functionality which includes slam stop and many times, it happens to give the three symbols for a bonus.

As i said before, one of my friend is bin exploiting that type of gameplay as well, but we both know it's more of a entertainment feature then it actually does something. We had a play a few hours a week or so ago and we constantly hitted bonusses by slam stop. It was'nt just doing great in those bonusses and kept us artificially, to a fee.

I am not your customer. I dont play online anymore. I never signed up again or i never reactivated my account. I have more discipline then you could imagine. But from my standpoint, online play is capped, controlled whatever you name it.

I remember being on 11500 euro's on my account. So i thought i'd exploit a litlte here and there in some slots. I simply could not hit anything at all. It's just capping me and there was a noticable lag on every spin i did. The slots wanted their money back. Tell me this Trancemonkey, is a online casino or a game provider able to 'cap' a player who's exceeded a big amount of money on his account? Can he / she exploit even further and double that 11k?

Proberly not. Here's where the constant losing streak comes into play. You dont tell me it's coincidence having a losing streak from 11 back to 7k. That's 4k on wasted spins. And the bets where in between 5 up to 15 a spin combined on various games.

Slots online are NOT genuine.

I don't make online slots - so you are

Anyway - long story short, slam stopping gives you EXACTLY the same outcome as leaving it to spin. What you believe is up to you - but i only deal in facts. You can't exploit it, control it, change it... Licking the machine before a spin also doesn't change the outcome. Although when i've been drunk in Vegas, even i've tried that

To answer your capping question - no there is no capping whether you choose to believe me or not. Think about it right - those mega wins are rare. Very rare. The chance of getting a win of 500x stake (or more) on most games would be well in to the 1 in 20,000 chance - probably higher. So if you hit one, and you're up - the chances are very very low you'll hit another one.

Think of it like this right - let's say the chance of a big win (50x) is 1 in 500. The odds of getting two big wins in a row is 1 in 250,000. So if you get multiple big wins close to each other - you are beating the odds. A game is MUCH more likely to go on a losing streak than a winning streak - that's just pure and simple maths.

So when you're up, i'd just give up and go and have a steak. Give your luck a day off