Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[funnymunny]

I know I probably shouldn't, but for some reason I feel compelled to reply to you again. (I will also skip the first few paragraphs of the post I'm quoting, but it can essentially be summed-up as 'blah blah blah - tin-foil nonsense & complete disregard of every response given that doesn't fit with your baseless theories and beliefs'
).

...
Why is it that online casino's base their RTP on BETS vs WINS and not DEPOSIT vs WITHDRAWL. Any gambler in the world would go for DEPOSIT vs WITHDRAWL and what the actual wins or losses are. Now if we measure those numbers, do you ever come across that 95 ~ 97% RTP?
...

You mean apart from the fact that deposits and withdrawals have nothing to do with wagering? How happy would you be if you deposit & then immediately withdraw your funds again, yet only get 95~97% of your funds?!

As I've said before here (and you've conveniently ignored), "...the registration database is 100% separate from the software providers gaming servers...". Putting it another way, software providers cannot see how much you deposit and how much you withdraw.

It also seems that not only don't you listen to the words of others, you also don't listen to yourself. Didn't you say in the last paragraph of your post here that "...I should just move on from stupid slots..."

Another thought for you - if slots are rigged, does that mean lotteries are too? You could buy millions of tickets & never win more than you've spent on tickets. Everything you've said about slots "chewing" through your balance, rarely ever having a big win and/or never hearing of a jackpot winner hitting on their first wager could equally apply to a lottery. I mean, don't lottery companies know the numbers you've picked before they pick the winning balls out of their machines - clearly the machines are programmed to deflect gravity and confuse the laws of physics to ensure your selected numbers are never the ones drawn first...?

 

[TheAddict]

Get the feeling from reading the last few pages that some people actually think they are entitled to a 500x win within ever 1000 spins.

How can anyone honestly insist that it doesnt happen in land based casinos? That if u change slot because one is dead,the next one or two will pay. Well its not gonna pay any worse is it, if the first payed naff all.
What if you walked towards one and thought, aha .., im ahead of the game here... if i walk upto it, knowing its gonna be dead and id normally move on, so B line it with intent of really wanting to play the 2nd one that would pay after the first doesnt, had i played it and moved on after i didnt pay, im saving loads of money with this method surely..and thus time next year I'll be a millionaire.

They are, in most cases, set to play in a very different way. How can a 95%+ game be able to play like a 88-92% game with different caps on winnings. It has to be balanced differently or else the provider/supplier is going to lose money on a 95% game that constantly churns out big hit after big hit.

Like the fobt's in the uk, capped at 500 but will give decent wins near that amount in order to meet the rtp and balance out in the long run. just don't go chasing it everyday and leave after smashing the screen with the stool you are sitting on, like many do if it doesn't work out in the end.

Just my opinion of course. Been playing land based compensated games for 29 years on a regular basis, now just turned 36 :...( but have avoided random games throughout that period 100% up until the past 5 years where id enjoy (ceartinly not always lol) a bit of low rolling fun online on some of netents older games... safe to say that almost all the newer ones will never see a penny.

Tmonkey is not shilling for the entire casino industry lol.. id bet my next bankroll on doa over it (all 20quid of it!). as i read somewhere, he is just another guy who also used to play compensated slots offline, thats 100% evident from how he talks of older offline fruit machines and the little things a casual player never knew about. and after that, eventually got a career within the offline manufacturers of ceartin land based fruit machines , and then onwards into the online industry, and kindly shares what educated views he is legally allowed to do so with us here.

So fwiw, thanks for your time mr.monkey

 

[4048]

No worries, I don't have a webcam at all!

That's what the casinos would like you to think!

 

[goatwack]

Everyone knows the lottery is rigged. They see what numbers players have purchased in the system, and thereby use magnetic ball manipulation to pick certain numbers over others

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[dionysus]

Everyone knows the lottery is rigged. They see what numbers players have purchased in the system, and thereby use magnetic ball manipulation to pick certain numbers over others

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

thats why they always have those pretty girls picking balls or calling them..to distract you from the shenanigans like the trained mice in the lotto ball hopper

 

[TheAddict]

With the L located just below the P on keyboards Dionysus, a little typo could have said something very different indeed.
Though best not give pornhubcasino any extra lucrative ideas

 

[dionysus]

lmfao

 

[Jono777]

With the L located just below the P on keyboards Dionysus, a little typo could have said something very different indeed.
Though best not give pornhubcasino any extra lucrative ideas

I genuinely read this as "lubricative" first glance

 

[trancemonkey]

If just listning to what Trancemonkey has to say, he somehow seems to dodge certain (keypoint) questions. I am not a developer, guru in the casino industry, but i recognize this behaviour. You need to 'wager' some amount of money before you can win something back. Does'nt matter how your gaming strategy is. It's all the same. Maths or not, this is just unfair if a wager is against you while switching from slot.

This is different into a landbased tho. If a slot does'nt do what you want it todo, you move on to the next one. Online seems that you really cant switch from one to another as that wager still applies for some stupid reason. I am not talking about bonus or 'money doubler' upon deposit. They just want you to play long enough because in their calculations that is where you start losing and they making profit.

So they make it, very difficult to make a quick one in a short period of time, and thus sticking the player into playing more. Trancemonkey is proberly going to make fun of me, but i play long enough to know that some vague stuff is going on at slots.

I deposit 20. I play > bonus > 30 > from that point it's just nothing back to 20. And again, a bonus. This time a little more less, 26, going back to 18, bonus, back at my deposit, questioning myself over here now, continue, back to 12, bonus, 17... and this repeats over and over again, untill my balance hits zero. My playing was a combination of slam stop and normal play, nothing out of the ordinary. It seems to me that it's very likely programmed and has nothing todo anymore with RNG. Constantly compensating on small wins to stick within the advertised RTP.

Is that fair? Is that genuine? Fuck no. Is it legal for a game provider? Proberly. A big hit out of nowhere is like you wagered a certain amount of money and from that point doing jack shit.

What am i dodging? Ask me direct questions and i will answer them...

 

[Jono777]

I know I am guilty of a handful of tin foil moments here and there but honestly, 99.99% of them are tongue in cheek, none serious points. (probs mostly post bust also)

Having read these past few pages / posts / similar threads I now know how daft I probably made myself look in the past

I seriously admire your patience TM, guessing it has become more of a determination thing now though!

 

[Gaz237]

Please go back into your deposit history (online) and let me know if you actually have a profit. Like, over the last 6 months, 12 months, or whatever. Does that relate to 95% ~ 97% ? Or are we talking about lower numbers here? If you are, then you are one of the few % that came ahead and proberly quit while you where at it.
.

Just out of interest I just asked Videoslots for my total deposits and withdrawrals since I joined

You have made deposits of 8,668.00 GBP and withdrawals of 8,692.93 GBP since you sign up on 2017-05-11.

So have made a profit of £24.93p in 8 months. Had countless hours of fun playing and spent naff all.

In fact I'm quite happy to donate my profit towards a large supply of tinfoil for yourself.

 

[trancemonkey]

what will he say "no its not like that" end of questions?? lol.

He came on here after 4 years and made a thread AMA right after there was thread after thread complaining about how the games are playing nowdays,damage control I would think,now he is here everyday after 4 years of nothing = ya ok its all good trace says so lol

I don't even really know what the accusation is here... lol

Why don't you come to meet me then at the Meister Meet next Tuesday.

 

[trancemonkey]

You see Trancemonkey is not telling us all. All these slots are linked, and programmed in such a way, they'd never make LOSS for the game providers OR casino's. It's protected. I can see the lag when i press slam-stop, that the rheels are just not landing on where it's supposed, proberly communicating with homebase, and present a different outcome. If you play certain games long enough you'll know at some point the way the game is going to behave. Ask any slot player inside here.

This big data, is what concerns me into slots, and having some sort of AI using your players behaviour against you. Trancemonkey does not tell us wether game providers (the ones that HOST these games) are using AI or some sort of stuff. They have their security build into games. Slam stop long enough and you'll know what i am talking about. I'm sure there's a feature build into slam stops as well to give you the idea that slam stopping actually would work, while it's not.

You won't believe me anyway but no of course we don't use AI.

You know you can look up all the regulations we have to adhere to right? They are all public...

Or do you think we all ignore them anyway?

Oh and by the way, we rarely change the maths between land based and online for the same game.

 

[trancemonkey]

how is been able to control the rtp random.I would think that's anything but random, controlling the spins and payout

I've explained all this in the AMA.

Here's an example...

I have a coin.
You pay me 1 dollar to toss the coin
If it lands on heads I give you $1.90
If it lands on tails you lose.
The RTP is 90%. The outcome is randomly determined.

 

[suchfun]

I've explained all this in the AMA.

Here's an example...

I have a coin.
You pay me 1 dollar to toss the coin
If it lands on heads I give you $1.90
If it lands on tails you lose.
The RTP is 90%. The outcome is randomly determined.

now have control over how many times its tails I lose,yep seems random

 

[dionysus]

except it doesn't control the random outcome.
people keep expecting random to mean equal odds.
granted if heads is win and tails is lose theres more loss/tails outcomes (well or less amount won).
that doesn't mean it still isn't random

 

[dionysus]

another way to see it is a bag if 10 beans. 6 white beans (loss)...3 red beans (win)...1 yellow bean (big win).
just because there's less a chance of pulling a yellow bean doesn't make any less random.
there's no need to control the outcome...odds are leaning toward the casino.

 

[suchfun]

except it doesn't control the random outcome.
people keep expecting random to mean equal odds.
granted if heads is win and tails is lose theres more loss/tails outcomes (well or less amount won).
that doesn't mean it still isn't random

sites have 3 or more picks of what RTP they want to use,in other words are controlling the payouts to the player,been able to control the spins and payout is opposite of random.yes???

 

[dionysus]

No.
Your odds change on a lottery depending whether you're issued 1, 2 or 3 tickets. It doesn't make the lottery any less random.

 

[suchfun]

No.
Your odds change on a lottery depending whether you're issued 1, 2 or 3 tickets. It doesn't make the lottery any less random.

if the lottery added 15 more balls to the draw is what messing with the rtp is = harder to hit

 

[suchfun]

another way to see it is a bag if 10 beans. 6 white beans (loss)...3 red beans (win)...1 yellow bean (big win).
just because there's less a chance of pulling a yellow bean doesn't make any less random.
there's no need to control the outcome...odds are leaning toward the casino.

what do you think it means to screw with the RTP? they add symbols? reels? no the change the payouts to hit less RTP less = far from random

how can you control the rtp and still think it's random? Control the payouts to hit less,but still be randomly less??? lol

 

[dionysus]

so use rhe earlier analogy.
instead of the posible outcomes of 6 white beans 3 red beans and 1 yellow bean the casino opted to go with the model where possible outcomes are now 7 white beans 2 red beans and 1 yellow bean.
the games rtp has changed
it doesn't mean what you randomly pull is any less..well..random.

it isn't as though the casino can offer player 1 an rtp of 95 player 2 an rtp of 96 and player 3 an rtp of 97.
if they chosen the 95% rtp model then that's the projected rtp for all 3 players.



Imagine a carnival (casino) wheel of 10 wedges. 5 red 5 white. Spin the wheel. What are the chances.of landing on red? 50%. Is it random. Sure.

Now imagine the carnival next door there's a wheel of 10 wedges but 4 are red and 6 are white. Spin the wheel. Is the outcome random? You betcha.
have you the same chances of hitting red? No.
is the spins outcomes still random? Yes.

 

[dionysus]

the fact is NO slot has an rtp if 100% and if that's what you're expecting going in then casinos aren't for you. Casinos aren't a philanthropic organization where they help players makes money. It's a business designed to make the casino money while providing players with entertainment with the possibility of making money. You're expected to know going in it isn't a career choice to earn income. If you didn't know...well now yoi do.

 

[suchfun]

so use rhe earlier analogy.
instead of the posible outcomes of 6 white beans 3 red beans and 1 yellow bean the casino opted to go with the model where possible outcomes are now 7 white beans 2 red beans and 1 yellow bean.
the games rtp has changed
it doesn't mean what you randomly pull is any less..well..random.

it isn't as though the casino can offer player 1 an rtp of 95 player 2 an rtp of 96 and player 3 an rtp of 97.
if they chosen the 95% rtp model then that's the projected rtp for all 3 players.



Imagine a carnival (casino) wheel of 10 wedges. 5 red 5 white. Spin the wheel. What are the chances.of landing on red? 50%. Is it random. Sure.

Now imagine the carnival next door there's a wheel of 10 wedges but 4 are red and 6 are white. Spin the wheel. Is the outcome random? You betcha.
have you the same chances of hitting red? No.
is the spins outcomes still random? Yes.

just the fact you are adding and taking out beans at your will is making the game not random,you are in fact controlling the outcome adding more losing beans and taking out winning beans,how do you not get controlling the outcome is not now or ever will be random?

 

[suchfun]

the fact is NO slot has an rtp if 100% and if that's what you're expecting going in then casinos aren't for you. Casinos aren't a philanthropic organization where they help players makes money. It's a business designed to make the casino money while providing players with entertainment with the possibility of making money. You're expected to know going in it isn't a career choice to earn income. If you didn't know...well now yoi do.

I play for shits and giggles,could care less if win or lose,but random??? lol ya ok

 

[dionysus]

because again for oh..the hundredth? 50th?..equal isn't synonymous with random.

 

[dionysus]

shrugs. take my word..or the thousands of people in the field and veteran members ..or don't .I don't care.
My points aren't to convince you because they won't but for new players viewing the thread to understand.

 

[suchfun]

because again for oh..the hundredth? 50th?..equal isn't synonymous with random.

heads or tails 50-50 right? now fix coin so you hit tails I lose 9 outa 10 times, still random but less?? lol,that;s what your saying you can add more losing beans but its still random

 

[suchfun]

shrugs. take my word..or the thousands of people in the field and veteran members ..or don't .I don't care.
My points aren't to convince you because they won't but for new players viewing the thread to understand.

last try = If you can control the spins to payout less, how is that random???
do you mean it makes it a little less random? or all the control in the world would not make it less random??
It has also been said one billion times computers cant generate random shit anyway

 

[dionysus]

again random isn't synonymous with equal.
if I hold out a fishbowl.and say hey inside there's 7 red ping pong balls 2 pink ones and one white one go ahead.and reach in. it'll cost you a quarter. but if you pull out a white one I'll give you a fiver. pull out a pink and I'll give you a buck.and if you snag a red one you get squat.
close your eyes no peeking. and my hands are behind my back.
equal odds on what colour you pull? nope.
is what you pull out random?
yup.
I'm.not controlling your pick.any more than the casino is controlling your spin. what comes out from all possible outcomes is random. the odds of what you pull are not.

 

[suchfun]

again random isn't synonymous with equal.
if I hold out a fishbowl.and say hey inside there's 7 red ping pong balls 2 pink ones and one white one go ahead.and reach in. it'll cost you a quarter. but if you pull out a white one I'll give you a fiver. pull out a pink and I'll give you a buck.and if you snag a red one you get squat.
close your eyes no peeking. and my hands are behind my back.
equal odds on what colour you pull? nope.
is what you pull out random?
yup.
I'm.not controlling your pick.any more than the casino is controlling your spin. what comes out from all possible outcomes is random. the odds of what you pull are not.

now you add 7 more red losing balls still random?? controlling payouts is far from random

 

[dionysus]

except the casino doesn't add more balls.
they don't tweak the rtp on a daily basis. they procure a model from the provider
.

 

[suchfun]

except the casino doesn't add more balls.
they don't tweak the rtp on a daily basis. they procure a model from the provider
.

the provider gives them a few options of what rtp they want to choose from,it has been stated in these threads,once again been able to control the outcome of a spin when and how much to pay is far from random,end of story

 

[dionysus]

they dont control the outcone.
SOME providers may offer different models. probably end of story yes. you unlike the thousand members can't seem to grasp it no matter how often it's been explained in untold threads here and across the Internet.

 

[suchfun]

they dont control the outcone.
SOME providers may offer different models. probably end of story yes. you unlike the thousand members can't seem to grasp it no matter how often it's been explained in untold threads here and across the Internet.

wow,how is changing the rtp not controlling the outcome?? they can change rtp anytime they wish

 

[interlog]

wow,how is changing the rtp not controlling the outcome?? they can change rtp anytime they wish

Only a few providers have different RTP models that a casino can select from. And you will find that casinos don't change these on a daily basis and you will find that most casinos actually go with the higher RTP one in this competitive market.

Slot providers and casinos don't need to rig anything. The slots are designed to make you lose money long term. No need to tinker with anything.

 

[trancemonkey]

wow,how is changing the rtp not controlling the outcome?? they can change rtp anytime they wish

Unfortunately all of your posts equate to failing to understand the way slots work.

Dionysus is right as he's using the analogy from my AMA... changing the bag of balls affects the distribution of results but the outcome is still picked at random.

If all the balls were numbered 1 to 17 for example, then all the RNG does is pick a number (randomly) between 1 and 17 and then check what the result is.

The way we control the RTP is by changing the number of balls in the bag, or altering what the balls will give you. BUT we don't do that on the fly... we do that to set up the maths initially and then once we are happy with the maths we give the game to the test lab to get approval where they check everything is legal and then to the casinos who nearly all run them on the highest RTP.

 

[dionysus]

Unfortunately all of your posts equate to failing to understand the way slots work.

Dionysus is right as he's using the analogy from my AMA...

thats kind.
but I've been using the analogy long before the AMA thread

 

[trancemonkey]

last try = If you can control the spins to payout less, how is that random???
do you mean it makes it a little less random? or all the control in the world would not make it less random??
It has also been said one billion times computers cant generate random shit anyway

Truly random no.. but PRNGs are random enough that the distribution is fair and as close to truly random as you can get. We use the Mersenne-Twister PRNG. Look it up

 

[trancemonkey]

thats kind.
but I've been using the analogy long before the AMA thread

Then I apologise Please don't hurt me

 

[dionysus]

Then I apologise Please don't hurt me

hardly. not my nature and I defer to your better knowledge
just something that continually comes up

 

[dionysus]

Truly random no.. but PRNGs are random enough that the distribution is fair and as close to truly random as you can get. We use the Mersenne-Twister PRNG. Look it up

lol I always like random..for a given value of random

I've a q for you however. it could be ama but probably near as apt here
do you find the more complicated (visually) the slot the harder to write ..let's say a standard slot of 25 lines or these days an all way vs say new slots say BTG style of insane line pays that change ..or is it really poTAYto poTAHto

 

[suchfun]

Unfortunately all of your posts equate to failing to understand the way slots work.

Dionysus is right as he's using the analogy from my AMA... changing the bag of balls affects the distribution of results but the outcome is still picked at random.

If all the balls were numbered 1 to 17 for example, then all the RNG does is pick a number (randomly) between 1 and 17 and then check what the result is.

The way we control the RTP is by changing the number of balls in the bag, or altering what the balls will give you. BUT we don't do that on the fly... we do that to set up the maths initially and then once we are happy with the maths we give the game to the test lab to get approval where they check everything is legal and then to the casinos who nearly all run them on the highest RTP.

ok gotcha,so when you lower the RTP we just randomly lose a little faster

ps I'm just bored waiting on a payout lol

 

[trancemonkey]

ok gotcha,so when you lower the RTP we just randomly lose a little faster

ps I'm just bored waiting on a payout lol

Basically yes

 

[trancemonkey]

lol I always like random..for a given value of random

I've a q for you however. it could be ama but probably near as apt here
do you find the more complicated (visually) the slot the harder to write ..let's say a standard slot of 25 lines or these days an all way vs say new slots say BTG style of insane line pays that change ..or is it really poTAYto poTAHto

I haven’t coded for a long time other than simulations to check the Maths but yes... the more complex the game the longer (not necessarily harder) it is to code.

 

[trancemonkey]

You are looking at server based gaming. It's not the game that decides the outcome but a 'server'. Various games are hooked on it and some RNG within that server decides who gets it and who's not. There's advantage (for the casino, duh) but disadvantage for players as well. This explains the wall you are reffering to. Server sided gaming comes back from 2005 already, and is being implemented on both land & online casino's.

This explains, when i am playing at a block of lets say 10 machines, i am the only one betting 20 up to 40 a spin, lose, and the rest miracles wins one after another. It's like my loss was being distributed among the rest of the machines on that same block.





Please watch from spin 3. Thank you. If i did not press that button the outcome, would be different then when i slam stopped. Yours and others problem is that some games are actually designed that they contain another game in a game. I have 3 other video's where i do exactly the same. Hit at the right moment. Please come with me some day if you dont believe me. Geezus.

Those knockoff games they offer online wont even come close to the quality of a real machine.



I am not an idiot. I know what i put into a machine and i know in some matter what to expect. Generally i walk away from landbased with 7 out of 10 times profit.

From when you press the button, the reels spin the next three symbols (the reel positions you would have had anyway) which is how we do it. Some games will literally jump to the end position now which is how I do my newest games.

 

[TheAddict]

what do you think it means to screw with the RTP? they add symbols? reels? no the change the payouts to hit less RTP less = far from random

how can you control the rtp and still think it's random? Control the payouts to hit less,but still be randomly less??? lol

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So, am i making your choice during each game not actually a random choice due to the chance finding the massive jackpot being mathematically unlikely - or "controlling the big payouts to hit less" as you worded it?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Truly random no.. but PRNGs are random enough that the distribution is fair and as close to truly random as you can get. We use the Mersenne-Twister PRNG. Look it up

I just did. "Close to truly random" ... So that RNG is not really random is it? It's all in the math i guess. If i'd spawn a random number generator in PHP or something close i can say it's genuine random. Now apply this to slots, how do you think the outcome would be?

 

[goatwack]

If anyone has any more random/ rigged questions for Trancemonkey I will convey them at the Meistermeet, using the medium of contemporary dance

 

[interlog]

If anyone has any more random/ rigged questions for Trancemonkey I will convey them at the Meistermeet, using the medium of contemporary dance

Will he be able to randomly pick me out of the crowd and if he does, will it be rigged?