Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[trancemonkey]

Tell me what other outcome there is

Of course i've played the game - and you're misunderstanding me... i'm not saying there is another outcome for whether it's a butterfly or not - that is binary. However, the game uses reels during the butterfly feature - so it isn't a 50/50 determination for butterfly / no butterfly - it's very much dependent on where the reels stop. And there is no way on this blue marble that the reels are running anywhere near a 50% chance of adding butterflies to every position!

 

[snorky510238]

So it's just consistent bad luck that one of the first two spins almost invariably produces 1 or 2 butterflies.

 

[interlog]

Well, a good mathematician and games producer would try and make sure that it wasn't as obvious as it might be... BUT sometimes it's inevitable due to the design of the game.
If it puts you off, then don't play it... I accept it, even though i admit it's annoying... but then i understand why it does it and why it HAS to do it...

Yeah I do know why it does it.

But compare it to Bonanza. At least with that you don't know the end result until the very last spin. With White Rabbit you know within a few spins whether it is going to be a stinker or not. A little like Creature from the Black Lagoon, Jack and the Beanstalk, Evolution and the ilk.

 

[trancemonkey]

So it's just consistent bad luck that one of the first two spins almost invariably produces 1 or 2 butterflies.

I would call it more "bad maths design" but the principal is the same. From my point of view your perception of what you think it's doing is interesting... gives me a good insight

 

[snorky510238]

I would call it more "bad maths design" but the principal is the same. From my point of view your perception of what you think it's doing is interesting... gives me a good insight

Yes I appreciate your answers and thoughts as I am no computer kid so you have an insight that I don't have.My posts aren't directed at you personally but they probably appear to be because I want your response as let's say for now we are on different sides of the fence so I am always keen to see what you have to say on the matter and I respect your thoughts

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes I appreciate your answers and thoughts as I am no computer kid so you have an insight that I don't have.My posts aren't directed at you personally but they probably appear to be because I want your response as let's say for now we are on different sides of the fence so I am always keen to see what you have to say on the matter and I respect your thoughts

Totally understand and appreciate your honesty and questions. I'll answer anyone's questions honestly and as openly as I can... the only time I get frustrated it when people like Tourettesguy ask questions or make posts but point blank refuse to even consider any response or answer that goes against their point of view... refusing to even question their own beliefs.

But that's the joy of forums like this right

 

[goatwack]

Phew, so glad someone's deflected Trancemonkey's anger away from me. I had fully expected him to turn up at the Meistermeet with some scribblings on a notepad of all my flippant retorts and slap me round the head with a wet fish.

Thankfully, that might not happen now

 

[snorky510238]

Totally understand and appreciate your honesty and questions. I'll answer anyone's questions honestly and as openly as I can... the only time I get frustrated it when people like Tourettesguy ask questions or make posts but point blank refuse to even consider any response or answer that goes against their point of view... refusing to even question their own beliefs.

But that's the joy of forums like this right

Yes exactly you get to share your views with people who share a passion and that has to be healthy.Some of my views are probably a bit "out there" but even if it's a small amount there's always a bit of logic behind it.If everyone thought the same you could never advance after all the stored knowledge we have in life has been passed to us by others

 

[trancemonkey]

Phew, so glad someone's deflected Trancemonkey's anger away from me. I had fully expected him to turn up at the Meistermeet with some scribblings on a notepad of all my flippant retorts and slap me round the head with a wet fish.

Thankfully, that might not happen now

Well, I’ll slap you with a pork chop instead now

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes exactly you get to share your views with people who share a passion and that has to be healthy.Some of my views are probably a bit "out there" but even if it's a small amount there's always a bit of logic behind it.If everyone thought the same you could never advance after all the stored knowledge we have in life has been passed to us by others

And sometimes “feelings” are stronger than facts to some people. I saw a flat earth video yesterday that used flight paths to prove the earth was flat. However he said that the direct flights that disproved his theory just didn’t exist even though he could have booked a seat on one and flown on it. But he just dismissed the facts because it didn’t suit his own agenda.

And as I’ve repeated.. I understand why people on here think he way they do. But take the post from Tourettesguy that I answered with fact - that the reels in that game have big symbols on them. If you play it it’s obvious they have these blocks of symbols. Will he accept it? No...

Can't really do much about that...

 

[snorky510238]

I have seen a few posts about whether or not the outcome of a spin or bonus round are predetermined.I personally think it's always predetermined if there was an option to double click spin the outcome of that game could be shown immediately without having to see the reels spin.I know for a fact this is true with the outcome of a spin on roulette.How because the second you press spin the person watching a monitor (you can't see obviously) can tell you the outcome of your game before the ball lands.The graphics are purely for show.I don't think anything mechanial(that's probably the wrong term but you know what I mean)can be truly random software has to be programmed and therefore the outcome has been influenced.How random it appears is down to how good your programmer is.Here is an example of how you can't beat a programme.I was playing a game the other day cant remember the name of it(think it had something to do with gorillas could be wrong)anyway I got a feature and you have to touch the grid which reveals a symbol when you hit three the same that's your prize.I have two of most of the symbols and have resigned myself to the fact I will match one of the lowest paying ones when I lose connection.I reconnect and am taken back to the start of the feature remembering where the lower boxes are positioned I obviously avoid them and pick where the higher symbols were only to find what ever I touched it panned out in exactly the same order they were just in different boxes and ended up with second lowest win.You can't beat the programme

 

[CasinoNinja]

Snorky, ofcourse a bonus is predetermined you press the spin button on a slot game. And if there is a pick a feature and you disconnect you will obviously get the same results.

Not sure what you mean by the roulette, if it's live, the person can't tell you where it lands before it does.. I'm a bit confused here what you mean.

 

[goatwack]

Trancemonkey needs to just come clean and admit that slots are bent. It would be really carthartic

 

[snorky510238]

Snorky, ofcourse a bonus is predetermined you press the spin button on a slot game. And if there is a pick a feature and you disconnect you will obviously get the same results.

Not sure what you mean by the roulette, if it's live, the person can't tell you where it lands before it does.. I'm a bit confused here what you mean.

No not live roulette any software versions

 

[snorky510238]

As for the feature thing I know it wasn't going to differ that was more a tounge in cheek thing about how solid the programs are.

 

[CasinoNinja]

Ah okay, I got you. Yeah the software versions would be decided the instant you press play, it would pick one out of 37 possibilities randomly and give you the results. Which is why you have fast spin version of roulette too. It's still just completely random though

Just makes sure you play on the best ones with the best chance of winning, like with only one zero instead of doubles.

 

[snorky510238]

I only play roulette live for that very reason software versions are 100% not random.

 

[trancemonkey]

I only play roulette live for that very reason software versions are 100% not random.

I'm going to say something here that you won't a) believe and b) agree with...

I had to give a talk to the UKGC a long time ago where I argued (successfully) that software roulette is actually more fair than live roulette.
They accepted the reasoning...

Why? Because a good croupier can get the ball to land in certain areas of the wheel more often than others. In other words, croupiers are NOT 100% random.
Software is simply:

Roulette.Outcome = GetRandomRange(0,36);

You don't have to believe that - but it's fact

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey needs to just come clean and admit that slots are bent. It would be really carthartic

#sarcasm_mode_on

You got me - everything i've said is a lie. Congrats Goaty me ole' son - you broke me!

#sarcasm_mode_off

 

[trancemonkey]

I have seen a few posts about whether or not the outcome of a spin or bonus round are predetermined.I personally think it's always predetermined if there was an option to double click spin the outcome of that game could be shown immediately without having to see the reels spin.I know for a fact this is true with the outcome of a spin on roulette.How because the second you press spin the person watching a monitor (you can't see obviously) can tell you the outcome of your game before the ball lands.The graphics are purely for show.I don't think anything mechanial(that's probably the wrong term but you know what I mean)can be truly random software has to be programmed and therefore the outcome has been influenced.How random it appears is down to how good your programmer is.Here is an example of how you can't beat a programme.I was playing a game the other day cant remember the name of it(think it had something to do with gorillas could be wrong)anyway I got a feature and you have to touch the grid which reveals a symbol when you hit three the same that's your prize.I have two of most of the symbols and have resigned myself to the fact I will match one of the lowest paying ones when I lose connection.I reconnect and am taken back to the start of the feature remembering where the lower boxes are positioned I obviously avoid them and pick where the higher symbols were only to find what ever I touched it panned out in exactly the same order they were just in different boxes and ended up with second lowest win.You can't beat the programme

I've covered this in the AMA thread... although it's probably buried in there somewhere by now

Some bonuses are and some aren't, and that can change by software provider too...

 

[Tourettesguy]

Have to say it again, slots are sometimes not random at all, and they are truly rigged, its a lottery and you just have to be there at the right time to win and it feels your game history and it will try keeping you below 100% payout nomatter how other players are doin.
For ex..today I play Reactuums...Playn Go go... Ive won on it sometimes and lost on it. But what this session showed me, proves it truly is rigged and not at all random. €2 spins session....ofcoarse I did not fill all 5 glasses to release the big WILD monster...sometimes you dont on a session..nothing strange..but 3 times in the session I filled 4 of them the 5th to about 99%...ofcoarse...THAT is not random, its pure evel rigged. Also this session was extrmely low in payout...and did not change..which also indicates its NOT random...and ALL the few glasses filled that suppose to help to win more and maybe reach the big WILD...did not help at all, more like the opposite every time. It was liek the slot ha made up its mind from the time I entered it...nothing was random, and everything behaved in a very rigged way all the time. This really pisses me of when people say its just random..

And a question...soem here say "the slot doenst know what the current bet is" when you play and you win more on small bets and lose on bigger bets...I dont have an oppion on that but if it did know, how could the software keep track of the player average payout? Lets say you win €10000 on a single crazy €10/bet... 1000x you bet... you are then €9990 ahead... if the slot didnt know anyhting you could in theory continue betting €0,10/spin for a looong time to let the slot compensate that 1000x bet win until youve lost €100..(1000x the bet) but ofcoarse the slot know you still are €8900 ahead... The slot know ofcoarse, otherwise games would be unfair and to risky for the casino.

 

[snorky510238]

I'm going to say something here that you won't a) believe and b) agree with...

I had to give a talk to the UKGC a long time ago where I argued (successfully) that software roulette is actually more fair than live roulette.
They accepted the reasoning...

Why? Because a good croupier can get the ball to land in certain areas of the wheel more often than others. In other words, croupiers are NOT 100% random.
Software is simply:

Roulette.Outcome = GetRandomRange(0,36);

You don't have to believe that - but it's fact

I would take programmed software to beat a croupier in a challenge of how to rob the punters blind.Like you said the croupier can spin to a section of the wheel software can pick an exact number

 

[goatwack]

Croupiers would have a tendency to stay within a batch of numbers, though it's not an exact science. Punters would amend their bets based on who took up the reins, although in my case it was hit or miss......especially when dealing left-handed. It was more a case of Pew! there goes the ball across the gaming floor to hit the old Chinese lady in the corner

If that's not random, I don't know what is

 

[snorky510238]

I've covered this in the AMA thread... although it's probably buried in there somewhere by now

Some bonuses are and some aren't, and that can change by software provider too...

Ok please tell me what information a rng sends to a slot to determine the outcome of a spin

 

[snorky510238]

Croupiers would have a tendency to stay within a batch of numbers, though it's not an exact science. Punters would amend their bets based on who took up the reins, although in my case it was hit or miss......especially when dealing left-handed. It was more a case of Pew! there goes the ball across the gaming floor to hit the old Chinese lady in the corner

If that's not random, I don't know what is

Yes certainly it's pretty random they can't allow for unexpected deflections and so forth but I have seen inexperienced croupiers have their sessions cut short a few times when a big hitter has cottoned onto the fact they are struggling to get out of a certain section.They are quickly replaced usually by the "demon" croup in the house.