Should casinos that bonus ban by country/region remain accredited?

[KariRunk]

I don't really get it how they can do this. How is it possible to ban someone based on where you live?

Would it be better if they would start banning based on your race? Something like this: We don't give bonuses to jews. All inuites have wagering requirements of 999x bonus+deposit. All caucasians are eligible for bonus but can play only slot called Rastafar. And so on.

 

[silcnlayc]

Bonuses a not a given right, but are a privilege. I really do not get it where a player thinks that a casino OWES them this. Where in the world does it say that a casino MUST give a bonus to everyone?

I am truly befuddled by the attitude of many thinking it is their right to get one.

The other thing I do not get is that I have NEVER heard of anyone being grateful for getting bonuses by a casino.

I mean, c'mon...no where does it say that they owe you anything in regards to gifts, bonuses or what have you. But yet, many players feel ENTITLED to one. Why??

Do not say because you spend money there and they should give you back a little something...they do not HAVE to. Just as any land based casino does not have to give anything. You choose to play, they do not force you to deposit.

I really would like to know why anyone thinks they are owed a bonus by a casino. With so much bonus abuse going on I am really amazed over the fact that bonuses are still offered, with many T&C's but still offered...and tough playthroughs. I feel if you do not like their terms and playthrough, you have a choice of not taking one. Easy as that!


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[KariRunk]

Bonuses a not a given right, but are a privilege. I really do not get it where a player thinks that a casino OWES them this. Where in the world does it say that a casino MUST give a bonus to everyone?
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You're absolutely right that they don't HAVE to give anything. I was asking if you think it's right for them to ban bonuses based on where you live?

 

[silcnlayc]

KariRunk: You're absolutely right that they don't HAVE to give anything. I was asking if you think it's right for them to ban bonuses based on where you live?

Sorry, I guess I didn't answer it...Yes, yes and yes. It is their right to offer to whoever and wherever they choose to.

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[KariRunk]

Sorry, I guess I didn't answer it...Yes, yes and yes. It is their right to offer to whoever and wherever they choose to.

.

Ok, I appreciate your view. One more question, would it be ok to offer bonuses based on your race?

 

[darkpixie]

I think if they are going to offer something like this, and blast you with marketing emails constantly offering said bonus then they have no business discriminating who gets them. If they have have issues with certain countries than say XYZ country can not play here or don't offer bonuses.

 

[maxd]

I thought I might toss a few things for thought into the discussion here:

• casinos do get deluged with fraudster groups working out of specific locations/areas/countries.
• casinos need to protect their business from fraudsters otherwise their business will suffer, possibly fatally.
• banning by region is a necessary evil, nobody particularly likes it and they do lose business because of it, but something has to be done and this is one way to deal with it.
• until someone comes up with a better way to deal with the problem region banning makes sense.

So, it's not the same as racial discrimination at all. It's more like sticking extra cops in neighbourhoods with high crime rates. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but what else are they supposed to do?

 

[hitobito2005]

There are reasons why casinos ban based on country. It's not arbritrary. One example is Denmark. Quite a few years ago it was shown on TV how to bonus-bag and thousands of people tried it - the casinos had no choice but to ban Denmark from receiving bonuses or face going bust.

Casinos identify where disproportionate amounts of bonus users come from and ban those regions.

While there is logic behind banning certain countries, there would be no logic in banning based on race (unless it was proven that a certain race are much more likely to be bonus baggers, which seems very unlikely!). So it's a completely different situation.

 

[darkpixie]

Ban the players not the bonus seems sensible to me.

 

[silcnlayc]

KariRunk: Ok, I appreciate your view. One more question, would it be ok to offer bonuses based on your race?

Of course, race is always brought up for things that have nothing to do with the other. Is race one of the questions on your signup page? If not, then it is a moot point and I have not seen this anywhere I have signed up at. So, it cannot be done since it is not a field to answer in your signup page and the casinos do not have a clue what race you are.

maxd I thought I might toss a few things for thought into the discussion here:
casinos do get deluged with fraudster groups working out of specific locations/areas/countries.
casinos need to protect their business from fraudsters otherwise their business will suffer, possibly fatally.
banning by region is a necessary evil, nobody particularly likes it and they do lose business because of it, but something has to be done and this is one way to deal with it.
until someone comes up with a better way to deal with the problem region banning makes sense.

So, it's not the same as racial discrimination at all. It's more like sticking extra cops in neighbourhoods with high crime rates. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but what else are they supposed to do?

Excellent points. I agree with totally.
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[winbig]

As long as they make it clear, up front, about which countries cannot receive bonuses, then there's not a problem, imo. Now as far as hiding "If you live in X, Y or Z, your wagering requirements will be 4931012x," then there's a problem.

 

[KariRunk]

I thought I might toss a few things for thought into the discussion here:

• casinos do get deluged with fraudster groups working out of specific locations/areas/countries.
• casinos need to protect their business from fraudsters otherwise their business will suffer, possibly fatally.
• banning by region is a necessary evil, nobody particularly likes it and they do lose business because of it, but something has to be done and this is one way to deal with it.
• until someone comes up with a better way to deal with the problem region banning makes sense.

So, it's not the same as racial discrimination at all. It's more like sticking extra cops in neighbourhoods with high crime rates. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but what else are they supposed to do?

I understand the reasons. But with that logic, any action casino takes to protect itself from fraud would be ok. No matter how unlegal, unethical and etc. it is?

It's same with the racial things, lets assume, if white people would do most of the bank robberies, could bank ban all white people for using banks?

Have you ever seen or heard land based casino disallow entrance to casino, disallow bonus, or any other comp from player based on his nationality?

BTW, why it sucks to have more polices in the area with high crime rates?

 

[winbig]

And besides, if a casino were to continue letting people from a specific area abuse bonuses and commit fraud, then who's left holding the bag? Legitimate players, that's who. Why should we (anyone in a non-banned region) have to suffer as a result?

Welcome to my world.....as a resident of the USA, I can't play at most all of the reputable casinos.

 

[KariRunk]

Of course, race is always brought up for things that have nothing to do with the other. Is race one of the questions on your signup page? If not, then it is a moot point and I have not seen this anywhere I have signed up at. So, it cannot be done since it is not a field to answer in your signup page and the casinos do not have a clue what race you are.
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This was hypothetical question. If it would be possible, would it be ok for you?

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I voted "no" but i actually was thinking about different play-thru requirements for some countries. Nothing annoys me more then getting marketing emails inviting me to take a bonus and wager 3-4 times more then players from other regions.

 

[maxd]

I understand the reasons. But with that logic, any action casino takes to protect itself from fraud would be ok. No matter how unlegal, unethical and etc. it is?

That's a theoretical question. Not a good use of my time, IMHO.

Have you ever seen or heard land based casino disallow entrance to casino, disallow bonus, or any other comp from player based on his nationality?

When people are allowed to log into land casinos from the web then you bet you will see them doing the same things! The anonymity of the web makes it a playground for fraud. Remove the anonymity and you remove (a lot of) the fraud.

BTW, why it sucks to have more polices in the area with high crime rates?

Who likes cops crawling all over them? Not me. Cops are enforcers and that's what they like to do, enforce. Most of the time they do it the right way, sometimes they do it the wrong way. I don't want to be around when it goes wrong, therefore I'd rather not have them hanging about unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[silcnlayc]

KariRunk: No matter how unlegal, unethical and etc. it is?

Huh??

Bonuses are not a required offering. You keep forgetting it is a gift from a casino. You don't like how they offer it, don't take one. It is called freedom of choice. No where do I see them doing this illegally...unethically...They do not OWE anything to a player in regards to bonuses if the terms are not followed.

KariRunk:This was rhetorical question. If it would be possible, would it be ok for you?

I think you are losing the point you started and you are bringing in things that mean nothing to the issue. Why? Race has nothing to do with bonuses. You either accept their terms or don't take one. It is not forced upon you. Called choices.

Complaining about free monies with attachments is something I will never understand, especially when you kinow it comes with terms and you can choose not to take it. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

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[KariRunk]

Huh??

Bonuses are not a required offering. You keep forgetting it is a gift from a casino. You don't like how they offer it, don't take one. It is called freedom of choice. No where do I see them doing this illegally...unethically...They do not OWE anything to a player in regards to bonuses if the terms are not followed.

I think you are losing the point you started and you are bringing in things that mean nothing to the issue. Why? Race has nothing to do with bonuses. You either accept their terms or don't take one. It is not forced upon you. Called choices.

Complaining about free monies with attachments is something I will never understand, especially when you kinow it comes with terms and you can choose not to take it. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

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But what if race would have something to do with. What if in some casino you would need to enter your ethnicity when you create accout, like you need to enter your nationality now. Would that be ok for you? Simple yes or no question, no need to ramble about accepting terms and etc again.

 

[silcnlayc]

KariRunk: But what if race would have something to do with.

But it doesn't.

KariRunk:: no need to ramble

My point exactly. Why continue asking a question that is a moot point??

I could throw in a few how about this scenerio, or that scenerio, or how about this or how about that, that has absolutely nothing to do with bonuses and gambling...just like your what if's...losing the point of your main question I think.

Think of a bonus as a coupon from a grocery store. How many times have you been shopping and had an expired coupon but demanded they take it anyway? How silly is that?

Or go to a car repair shop demanding they do an oil change for the price of the coupon you have found in a magazine, but you want superior oil, not their brand...and they would not honor it because you chose a different kind of oil change in place of the actual coupon offering...this is what a bonus is..just additional free monies but with a catch. Use at your own risk if not willing to follow T&C's.

These places do not owe a shopper anything either, they too offer coupons to get you to come in and buy from them. Same ole, same ole.
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[rouletteguy]

Kari runk just feels a little discriminated against which is totally understandable. A theoretical question. What do you think would happen if Cuba suddenly allowed online gambling? Where the avg income is 30 dollars or less?
Every single Cuban who can is going to signup for a no deposit bonus, If they lose they're going to go to another or commit player fraud and register another name and keep doing this until they win. multiple accounts, multiple casino's etc. With not even the slightest intention of depositing.

Now not everyone will but alot will, and I wouldn't blame them one bit, But a Casino is not a charity it is a business. As for the match bonus, it's a little different scenario, 99X playthrough on money just as good as everyone elses......how do you justify that? All I come up with is a larger probability of multiple accounts to repeatedly claim match bonuses, Chargebacks if you lose, or in the off chance.....maybe it's to discourage people who can't afford it from gambling at all.

 

[Rusty]

I voted yes.
I have no problem with them bonus banning countries and in fact I would prefer that than have them lump some obscene WR attached for named countried buried deep in their T&C's
Just make sure the list of countries is clearly displayed along with the bonus.

100% deposit bonus
The following countries are excluded from this bonus;
Shitazakstan, Fraudmania, Ethnicstan, Nopotopisin, Costa Rica.

If your country is listed then move along, give someone your money who appreciates your custom.

 

[KariRunk]

But it doesn't.My point exactly. Why continue asking a question that is a moot point??

Because it has a point.

Ok, since you're so in love with those terms and conditions. Here's my terms and conditions for this thread:

1.0 silcnlayc will need to answer all questions I have. And he/she has to be absolutely honest

2.0 People living in Antarctica or North pole aren't allowed to post.

3.0 Every word you post, you need to give penny/cent to your favorite charity

By posting in this thread you accept these terms and conditions.

And remember it's your choice if you accept these terms or not.

 

[KariRunk]

Kari runk just feels a little discriminated against which is totally understandable. A theoretical question. What do you think would happen if Cuba suddenly allowed online gambling? Where the avg income is 30 dollars or less?
Every single Cuban who can is going to signup for a no deposit bonus, If they lose they're going to go to another or commit player fraud and register another name and keep doing this until they win. multiple accounts, multiple casino's etc. With not even the slightest intention of depositing.

You have a point there. But with the casinos current terms and conditions, (wagering requirements, excluded games, limited bet sizes) I thought the bonuses are still +EV for the casinos. So what does they care who takes them and who not. It's money for them in the long run.

I'm not rocket scientist as have been stated, but if someone with math head could confirm that?

 

[KasinoKing]

• until someone comes up with a better way to deal with the problem region banning makes sense.

Well how about the casinos making the bonuses un-abusable?
All they need to do is write clearly in the rules what is and what is not allowed and then program the damn software to make it IMPOSSIBLE for "illegal" bets to be placed.
Surly this is not rocket science!

This suggestion has been about for yonks, and yet very few casinos have actually implemented it...
We all know why

KK

 

[maxd]

Well how about the casinos making the bonuses un-abusable?

If the opportunity presents itself I'm sure they'd love to hear your suggestions.

That wasn't my point though. I'm talking about region banning for fraud, which is most of what I see in my work. Bonuses aren't really part of that equation, not directly anyway.

 

[silcnlayc]

KariRunk: And remember it's your choice if you accept these terms or not.

Ahh, but I have aleady accepted the terms and conditions of posting in this forum...you cannot change them as you see fit, just as you cannot change a bonus T&C's to fit the bill of your choosing.

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[KariRunk]

Ahh, but I have aleady accepted the terms and conditions of posting in this forum...you cannot change them as you see fit, just as you cannot change a bonus T&C's to fit the bill of your choosing.

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I wasn't changing them. I just added extra conditions. Just like casinos do with their bonus conditions.

And now you accepted the terms and conditions to post this thread. So you wanna give me that answer? Why would my terms be any less acceptable than those casinos terms? And it was clearly stated in the terms that you accept them when you post.

So T&C guy, what's your problem. You don't like the terms and conditions any more when they don't work for you?

 

[jetset]

I'm trying to see the practical point of this thread, now that it has descended into leaps of logic and the hypothetical.

For me, Max's reasoning for the implementation and acceptability of regional banning as a business protection strategy makes sense, whilst I think that silcnlayc has put forward some practical and reasonable responses regarding the prerogatives and choices of both players and operators, and has every right to resist being pushed into opinions based purely on the hypothetical.

 

[chayton]

One casino I play at has a higher WR on bonuses for Canadian players. (Thanks to jasminebed for pointing it out) Do I continue to play there? Yes.

I don't normally take deposit bonuses, but occasionally I will if the terms are clear and the wagering requirement is reasonable - but at that casino I've excluded myself from receiving bonuses.

I'm with Silc on this one - if a casino has a bonus policy against a particular country and you live in that country, you can either play without bonuses or play elsewhere.

 

[takethemoney]

Banning someone because of where they are from is just downright stupid and in a way biggoted. That's like saying all black people or asians are fraudsters, therefore we won't give them bonuses. African people are fraudsters, so let's make them play through 3 x more than everyone else has to.

How in the hell can anyone from one of the listed countries have any advantage over slots, compared to everyone else? Their odds should be the same and I don't see how it could be possible to cheat a slot machine. I really question the mental stability of some of the casino operators sometimes. Paranoia! I remember reading a story about a player that was hot on the craps table and the pit boss had done everything to cool this guy off, from distracting him, changing dealers and dice, but to no avail. Finally the boss threw some chicken bones under the table. When asked why he did this, his reply; well, it was bad luck for the chicken wasn't it?

 

[The Dude]

Here is one main reason which Max alluded to earlier in this thread: there are fraud groups that originate from various locations: Finland, Israel, Denmark, Malaysia, and Poland just to name a few. Some of the casinos that have been hit hard by these groups (and I'm talking fraud, not just bonus baggers/beaters) will look at a common denominator (let's say bonus) and bonus ban the entire country. That is much easier and less time consuming (read: not as costly) than auditing each and every account.

All this stuff about it being analogous to racism or ethnocentrism is a bunch of hooey. I figure most of you can see beyond that.

So you live in a country where bonus play has a 99x play through requirement, well then just move on. Or better yet - free yourself from astronomical wagering requirements and play without one. You may find it refreshing

 

[Tengil]

I personally dont have problems with higher WRs for certain countries as long as its clearly stated. Usually I use ctrl+f to check.

Post wager bonuses are good in that sense that you basically cant play any excluded games and you arent tied to any wagering requirements. Most of the Wagerworks bonuses are like this hence why you hardly see any WW complaints. So it wouldnt matter if they had an WR of 99x or similar, you arent tied to it.

BTW bet365 has 200xD+B for Finland on their standard SUB but their slots bonus has the same WR as all the other countries, that makes sense. Dont attract APs, gnomers etc. but dont scare away the recreational slot player.

 

[KariRunk]

Can anyone tell me what's the expected value for 200$ bonus with wagering requirements of 30x bonus. If you play 5$ bets with slot that has 96% RTP?

 

[KasinoKing]

Can anyone tell me what's the expected value for 200$ bonus with wagering requirements of 30x bonus. If you play 5$ bets with slot that has 96% RTP?

200 x 30 = 6000 x96% = 5760 = a loss of 240
Therefore you would lose ALL of the bonus and $40 of your own money. (i.e. the EV is -$40)
Simples!

The size of your bets is irrelevant to the theoretical return, however due to most slots being fairly high variance it can have a very significant impact on your chances of busting out way before meeting WR, or making a good profit.
In fact, variance is how I've managed to win from casinos for 5 straight years playing (almost) slots only.
(The 4 profitable years before that was mostly done with card games).

KK

 

[takethemoney]

200 x 30 = 6000 x96% = 5760 = a loss of 240
Therefore you would lose ALL of the bonus and $40 of your own money. (i.e. the EV is -$40)
Simples!

The size of your bets is irrelevant to the theoretical return, however due to most slots being fairly high variance it can have a very significant impact on your chances of busting out way before meeting WR, or making a good profit.
In fact, variance is how I've managed to win from casinos for 5 straight years playing (almost) slots only.
(The 4 profitable years before that was mostly done with card games).

KK

I find this statement intriguing. Do you have some way of knowing when the variance favors the player? So, I guess everyone complaining about the casinos being tight and losing their deposits over and over again are not properly aligned with timing of the variance?

 

[same_old]

Here is one main reason which Max alluded to earlier in this thread: there are fraud groups that originate from various locations: Finland, Israel, Denmark, Malaysia, and Poland just to name a few. Some of the casinos that have been hit hard by these groups (and I'm talking fraud, not just bonus baggers/beaters) will look at a common denominator (let's say bonus) and bonus ban the entire country. That is much easier and less time consuming (read: not as costly) than auditing each and every account.

All this stuff about it being analogous to racism or ethnocentrism is a bunch of hooey. I figure most of you can see beyond that.

So you live in a country where bonus play has a 99x play through requirement, well then just move on. Or better yet - free yourself from astronomical wagering requirements and play without one. You may find it refreshing

Bryan has well and truly summed it up,


((i)) myself have first hand experience with this, working for an online agency and the Identification department etc...

Most of them ARE from the countries Bryan says and honestly it is due to the Syndicates and how EASY fraud can be commited from these places.
It is no way a racist thing as all of the casino's will let you sign up it's just the bonus side of things is all..

It is VERY unfare I agree on the honest ones who come from those countries but unfortunately it doesnt seem to be changing anytime soon..

I think 3-Dice have the best Idea so far for the bonuses etc because they set them up in a way that they cant be abused. Some other places could really take a page out of Enzo's book.

Do you Agree with that KK?- you being the bonus man and know them all out there, Do you thin how 3dice have there set up is the way to go?.

Either a complete overhaul of the bonus system across the industry needs to change OR- Online casinos get more savvy with there software and implement more measures where your system can recognise the client signing up with multiple names etc or same Ip's.

I have to say it really is something that needs to be addressed across the board though with all platforms as you are all usffering the same crap.

 

[winbig]

And think about it.......with all the stuff that's been going on for years, would you ever do business with anyone that is located in Nigeria?

I sure wouldn't. But, does that make all Nigerian's bad? Of course not. But would you take that chance?

 

[zap987]

Can anyone tell me what's the expected value for 200$ bonus with wagering requirements of 30x bonus. If you play 5$ bets with slot that has 96% RTP?

The expected value depends on the variance of the slot. If you play $5 bets on a very high variance slot with that bonus the expected value is very high.

Lets say you take this bonus 10 times and that it's a 100% match on a $200 deposit. The first 9 times you lose and wager on average $1000. The 10th time you hit big and have to complete the $6000 wagering requirement before cashing out. In total you have wagered $15000 which at 96% RTP gives the casino $600 back from the $2000 in bonus money so the EV of the bonus would be $140.

What changes the EV is how often you need to meet the full WR and how fast you can bust out when losing. If you play a very low variance slot at low bets then you will most likely end up with a negative expected value. Kasinokings way of calculating the EV only applies if you ALWAYS meet the WR, which won't happen on slots.

 

[KasinoKing]

I find this statement intriguing. Do you have some way of knowing when the variance favors the player? So, I guess everyone complaining about the casinos being tight and losing their deposits over and over again are not properly aligned with timing of the variance?

Zap's post above explains it much better than I could!

To be honest, I didn't know WHY I was winning so consistently until people like Zap and Enzo explained it to me. Even now I have a little bit of trouble getting my head around it, but it obviously works so I'm happy to believe them!

Basically what they're saying is you shouldn't look at the EV of just one individual bonus, but at the combined EV of multiple bonuses.

KK

 

[takethemoney]

Zap's post above explains it much better than I could!

To be honest, I didn't know WHY I was winning so consistently until people like Zap and Enzo explained it to me. Even now I have a little bit of trouble getting my head around it, but it obviously works so I'm happy to believe them!

Basically what they're saying is you shouldn't look at the EV of just one individual bonus, but at the combined EV of multiple bonuses.

KK

Ok, well that kind of explains why. I usually shoot my wad on one deposit, then can't deposit again for another couple weeks. I normally make one or two deposits per month, going with the biggest bonus / lowest WR & max cashout I can find. I'm 96 deposits in without a cashout and I play mostly slots. I've only hit the WR about 30% of the time, but normally end up with a small scared balance that does not get above initial bonus, which I will play until I bust out. In the end I find I'm just making tiny bets trying to stay in action, just in case I get a good hit and can play at a higher level. Typical deposit for me is 200-300. I don't know how many times I can get ahead well until I get close to the WR, then bam, the thing kicks my butt.

 

[slafs]

@Takethemoney:

The solution is simple - keep your bet size but make smaller deposits. Calculate the wagering requirements on a $25 deposit vs a $200 deposit and you'll see it makes sense.

The chance of hitting something should be the same on a $200 deposit and 8 x $25 deposit, although the bonuses attached may vary when depositing 8 times instead of 1. However, when/if you hit you only have to finish the wagering for the current $25, not the full $200.

It has always made sense to me at least!