Shock! Casino owners may change RTP in Play N'GO slots!

[Slottery]

It's inside the game

No much excuses then if you inside game show that it's running higher RTP what it actually is.

 

[colinsunderland]

Actually, it's play n go games, so accessed from within the game but an external link

 

[Slottery]

Actually, it's play n go games, so accessed from within the game but an external link

Ok, you maybe share more details later, assume they will get it changed now for sure, when knowing what's the story we can keep keep our court here

 

[mmandre1]

Does this only apply to BoD or also other Playngo titles, or even their table Games?

 

[colinsunderland]

Just been reading the standards for games, and this jumps out

RTS implementation guidance

7D a. Changes to game or event rules, paytables or other parameters that change the way in which a game, lottery, or event works, the winnings paid, or likelihood of winning (except as described in 7Dc), should be conducted with the game or event taken offline or suspended.

19 b. Altered games, lotteries, and events should display a notice that informs customers that the game or event has been changed, for example, ‘rules changed’, ’new odds’, or ’different payouts’. The notice should be displayed on game selection screens and on the events themselves if it is possible for the customer to go straight to the event without using a selection screen.

19 c. This requirement is not intended to prevent games and virtual events where specified changes occur legitimately, in accordance with the game or event rules, forexample: i. virtual events, such as virtual racing products where the odds differ from event to event depending on the virtual runners ii. virtual games, such as bingo where the odds of winning are dependent on the number of entrants iii. games with progressive jackpots, where the amount that can be won changes over time iv. games with bonus rounds where different rules apply, so long as these rounds are properly described to the customer v. unspecified changes to rules, paytables or other parameters that change the way in which a game, lottery or event works are not permitted, for example, rules that state ‘game rules may be changed at any time’ would not be acceptable.

Surely that means, if a casino changes the RTP then customers should be informed?

Old / Expired Link

 

[goatwack]

So in essence anything 'live' is subject to change, but slots etc are non-changeable during gameplay

 

[Mr_Slot5]

found it, well looks like a very large casino group in the UK are going to be getting a call from the UKGC as now have the proof they are running at a lower RTP than they are advertising. Sneaky fuckers.

Underhand and quite frankly disgusting. Yet some people want us to believe all is above board with regards to casinos.

Seems this casino wants to focus on the 'reward' from the risk reward strategy they have seemingly followed.

 

[EkJR]

Is it just me that thinks this thread should have been called...."Meanwhile, in Russia..."

 

[EkJR]

What's to stop casinos advertizing a game at say 96% RTP but then switching it midway to a lesser one?

Yeah I went there

You will be known as this on here....

 

[EkJR]

Not by me I may add!!

 

[goatwack]

I'm only mid-tier tinfoiler on here

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've been playing around with this myself and can confirm the results, including at a major UK facing casino with the discrepancy colinsunderland mentioned. (And can confirm that at VS for example, the value is shown as 94, which is correct as we know they're running the 94% maths model. LeoVegas and Rizk both show 96, which matches what they say they're running.)

What's giving me pause for thought, and before I commit to making any noise publicly about it, is why is the server passing the RTP to the client at all, and let alone in plain text?

The client doesn't need to know what maths model it's running, and it shouldn't care, all it needs to do is display results from the server.

From my testing it certainly looks like that value does correspond to the advertised maths model at basically all casinos, apart from the 'dodgy' UK casino and the Russian sites as per the OP.

Either way it's definitely very concerning that help files are being pulled from, essentially, 'external' URLs that are NOT part of the main game (you can see the help files being pulled from different URLs if you watch the network traces).

Here's the screen at Videoslots, with the correct 94 value being shown.

What we're getting at here is it'd be really bad if a UKGC licensed casino were showing a 96% help file, but running a 94% maths model..... (Or in essence, advertising a different game from that which they were providing.)

 

[Playford7]

TBF, this reaches nearly the "RTG shady" level of over a decade ago where operators could switch willy-nilly between RTP settings.

Rather disappointed that Play'n GO would offer such means to operators. I always thought under UKGC and MGA licenses RTPs are controlled by the provider, or even have to be. Not really sure, maybe @trancemonkey can confirm.

Either way, this will rock the trustworthiness this industry so heavily relies on if this turns out to be as it looks right now and it blows out into the open.

Or they will try to convince us again of a "Vulkanbet is not Vulkanbet" tale.

That’s the thing harry, there is zero trustworthiness in the industry. It’s why many hold online casinos in such disregard, this is just another episode of exactly why.

 

[Slottery]

Either way it's definitely very concerning that help files are being pulled from, essentially, 'external' URLs that are NOT part of the main game (you can see the help files being pulled from different URLs if you watch the network traces).

Not sure if that's alone huge issue if help file and game itself are not from same url as long they are same and matching?

 

[Nik]

found it, well looks like a very large casino group in the UK are going to be getting a call from the UKGC as now have the proof they are running at a lower RTP than they are advertising. Sneaky fuckers.

do you think we can politely ask them for a refund on all loses from PnG slots then ?

 

[Harry_BKK]

do you think we can politely ask them for a refund on all loses from PnG slots then ?

If it turns out to be true that they have been misleading players about the RTP then the refunds are probably the lesser concern (or amount of money) as the fines might affect them much more.

However, I am pretty sure they will come up with some "low-level intern made a mistake" excuse and that they will "look at their processes to ensure it never happens again" if they are caught redhanded.

 

[Slottery]

Sure they do but having link or information inside the game to incorrect information about how much game is paying can't really just go without any punishment, same than give goodwill refund of deposits to somebody who "accidentally" registered with fake details, very next day you see loads of others doing same "mistakes"

Like mentioned here it's some major bookie in UK, if i understand right, they make huge money from sportsbook, their shops etc... that it setting one provider 2% lower RTP just sounds too stupid to be anything but mistake but never underestimate stupidity either.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Sure they do but having link or information inside the game to incorrect information about how much game is paying can't really just go without any punishment, same than give goodwill refund of deposits to somebody who "accidentally" registered with fake details, very next day you see loads of others doing same "mistakes"

Like mentioned here it's some major bookie in UK, if i understand right, they make huge money from sportsbook, their shops etc... that it setting one provider 2% lower RTP just sounds too stupid to be anything but mistake but never underestimate stupidity either.

TBH, I would see it as simple "greed" not stupidity.

They maybe hoped players would be "stupid" enough to never find out because it is not there in the open.

From what I can see, it must be a deliberate setting because you can't just get a 94% version without doing some manual changes/adjustments or the like.

 

[colinsunderland]

Sure they do but having link or information inside the game to incorrect information about how much game is paying can't really just go without any punishment, same than give goodwill refund of deposits to somebody who "accidentally" registered with fake details, very next day you see loads of others doing same "mistakes"

Like mentioned here it's some major bookie in UK, if i understand right, they make huge money from sportsbook, their shops etc... that it setting one provider 2% lower RTP just sounds too stupid to be anything but mistake but never underestimate stupidity either.

There has been manual intervention to do what they have done. I have screenshots of me alerting them to this 3 weeks ago, so they cannot say they weren't aware. I now have evidence of it happening on 2 providers. I've also came across another LCCP breach, not RTP related, but down to settings.

 

[EkJR]

There has been manual intervention to do what they have done. I have screenshots of me alerting them to this 3 weeks ago, so they cannot say they weren't aware. I now have evidence of it happening on 2 providers. I've also came across another LCCP breach, not RTP related, but down to settings.

Who is it?

 

[Slottery]

There has been manual intervention to do what they have done. I have screenshots of me alerting them to this 3 weeks ago, so they cannot say they weren't aware. I now have evidence of it happening on 2 providers. I've also came across another LCCP breach, not RTP related, but down to settings.

Then we start to get to that stupidity part quite strongly.

edit: And probably (hopefully) very expensive one.

 

[GunarsB]

This may be a little "off topic", but also could match to any thread where RTP is mentioned:
Does it make any sence if there is a specific percentage of what player can get back from what he rolls over? We are talking about slots, where perfect timing aka. luck grants us the winnings. So if we all are really lucky and we all have that perfect sence of taping or clicking, can really this RTP make any difference?
When I read more and more about different RTPs, I just have to start thinking: have slots really a random chances of winning (which at some point is true), or is it just an advanced algorithm of how to lure players into those games?
I understand that RTP includes the variety of combinations, most of them doesn't pay at all, some pay something, very few pay very good, but it still shouldn't affect how and when I tap a spin button.
No conspiracy here, just wondering.

 

[dionysus]

but it still shouldn't affect how and when I tap a spin button.
No conspiracy here, just wondering.

outside of pure random luck, when you hit spin is irrelevant
RTP just determines the theoretical amount a player should expect to receive back
volatility/variance is a whole different kettle of fish as well.

 

[bamberfishcake]

This is crazy. How can a major casino be bold enough to do this? How can we have a regulated industry that is so open to abuse?

The casino must also have a glaring disdain for its customers if they have been told, yet still ignored whats being said and must think they are untouchable to brush this off and not act after being warned.

Its cheating and i cannot think of any other word to describe it.

Sneaky, greedy and dishonourable and i hope they get run into the ground and made an example of.

Im going to be feeling sick if it turns out to be somewhere i have been depositing for the last 2 years. Imagine having a run of bad luck to find out the games you have been playing were not running at the RTP they should have been.

This cant bode well for PlaynGo either. Personally i dont play any PnG or Red Tiger at VS anymore and following this charade im not sure i want to open a PlaynGo slot anywhere anymore.

Is a heavily regulated industry not supposed to be safer for the consumer?

The casino itself cant declare this a failing or mistake surely? Its a rip off and a con. No 2 ways about it.

Especially after being told.

 

[FAZI1]

The devil is provider studio - Playngo - why they even creating games with 5 or more rtp% levels ?
why they creating lowest rtp% model for their games set up at 84% RTP ? ! they know this is extreme low level = scam level RTP% but they know in same time is a lot dirty casinos who take this level.

Its plenty casinos with Curacao Licension - then dont need publish RTP% for their games , and if they put in playtable fake informations abaout rtp% like 96% and running games with 84% then is no big deal.

What they risk ? if casino running uder Curacao they can do what they want - So provider - studio Playngo creating this kind of low 84% rtp model mainly for casinos with a curacao license.

So Provider Playngo is new RTG Real Time Gaming - messed with RTP and creating crazy low RTP% models for their games. - In Real Time gaming - most victims are - players from USA - in Playngo software slots = Most victims of scamy 84% model is group customers playing in casinos under curacao licensions.

( casinos under Curacao take most adventage with use lowest rtp% models games from Playngo and hidden RTP% files in playtable or show fake RTP% informations in playtable )

 

[bamberfishcake]

The devil is provider studio - Playngo - why they even creating games with 5 or more rtp% levels ?
why they creating lowest rtp% model for their games set up at 84% RTP ? ! they know this is extreme low level = scam level RTP% but they know in same time is a lot dirty casinos who take this level.

Its plenty casinos with Curacao Licension - then dont need publish RTP% for their games , and if they put in playtable fake informations abaout rtp% like 96% and running games with 84% then is no big deal.

What they risk ? if casino running uder Curacao they can do what they want - So provider - studio Playngo creating this kind of low 84% rtp model mainly for casinos with a curacao license.

So Provider Playngo is new RTG Real Time Gaming - messed with RTP and creating crazy low RTP% models for their games. - In Real Time gaming - most victims are - players from USA - in Playngo software slots = Most victims of scamy 84% model is group customers playing in casinos under curacao licensions.

( casinos under Curacao take most adventage with use lowest rtp% models games from Playngo and hidden RTP% files in playtable or show fake RTP% informations in playtable )

The thing is this is a UK licenced and reputable brand from what i can gather.

Not Curacao licenced.

This is supposed to be a trusted place to play.

I would prefer PlaynGo did not offer different versions but to state a higher RTP than what the played version is offering is basically ripping off your client base. Thats down to the casino for making a conscious decision to con their players.

Its like selling Mercedes with a Ford engine. Your buying a car but under the hood your not getting what you pay for.

 

[sufferinsilence]

I feel a juicy video from @ChopleyIOM coming up

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I feel a juicy video from @ChopleyIOM coming up

The only thing I'm still trying to get my head around is why the RTP is there in plain text in the server calls, however thinking about it PNG probably don't run five logically distinct servers for each RTP variation, so the server needs to know which RTP model a client is requesting a result from.

So from VS you're calling the 94% maths model, from dodgy Russian casino you're calling the 84% maths model, from LeoVegas you're calling the 96% maths model, and so on.

So maybe it's as a simple as that, maybe that is part of the call from the client, 'Hello PNG server, please give me a result from the 94% maths model for Book Of Dead'. And maybe PNG did just leave that part of the request as a plain text variable in one of the server calls.

Anyway, if any of this stuff changes I've already gathered plenty of videos and screenshots for a video for the channel, I'm just keeping my powder dry until we can bottom things out.

This is the kind of thing where some input from trancemonkey might be useful

 

[dionysus]

This is the kind of thing where some input from trancemonkey might be useful

you'd probably be more likely to get him to respond here by flagging him

@trancemonkey

 

[slot_zombie]

If it's there in plain text, could it be "hacked" to deliver 96%?

 

[Harry_BKK]

If it's there in plain text, could it be "hacked* to deliver 96%?

or 196%?

EDIT: If it is in anyway as RTG, then PnG has the provider noted for what they agreed to, so any request with a different RTP would not be handled.

 

[sufferinsilence]

The only thing I'm still trying to get my head around is why the RTP is there in plain text in the server calls, however thinking about it PNG probably don't run five logically distinct servers for each RTP variation, so the server needs to know which RTP model a client is requesting a result from.

So from VS you're calling the 94% maths model, from dodgy Russian casino you're calling the 84% maths model, from LeoVegas you're calling the 96% maths model, and so on.

So maybe it's as a simple as that, maybe that is part of the call from the client, 'Hello PNG server, please give me a result from the 94% maths model for Book Of Dead'. And maybe PNG did just leave that part of the request as a plain text variable in one of the server calls.

Anyway, if any of this stuff changes I've already gathered plenty of videos and screenshots for a video for the channel, I'm just keeping my powder dry until we can bottom things out.

This is the kind of thing where some input from trancemonkey might be useful

It sure would be interesting for someone "in the know" to chime in on this.

Are all the PnG slots on that particular casino advertised as 96% yet have the 94% version running?

 

[Nik]

If it's there in plain text, could it be "hacked" to deliver 96%?

Or 106% will be even better

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If it's there in plain text, could it be "hacked" to deliver 96%?

Well the rule with this sort of thing is 'never trust the client', for precisely this reason. In fact, for that reason it's probably the other way round, and the 84-96 value is from the server as part of the overall 'package' for each spin, but on that logic, why even have it in there at all? Unless it's just something that PNG left in there by accident, or didn't really consider the fact that someone might find it, or didn't care either way.

 

[Nik]

Well after this thread I think PnG are already working on it .... so I suspect very soon we won’t be able to “inspect” the games file simply by a few clicks

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well after this thread I think PnG are already working on it .... so I suspect very soon we won’t be able to “inspect” the games file simply by a few clicks

Well that would be telling enough in itself.

 

[spiker1977]

Seems PnG is giving 98% value in some games in sweden.

The games are: Troll hunters, Golden ticket, leprechaun goes egypt, mermaids Diamond,
Raging rex, Wild north, Golden colts, superflip.....

This is from unibet and maria casino.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Well that would be telling enough in itself.

Absolutely. Transparency = Trust.

If nothing to hide why hide it? Must be a reason then.

 

[SpinUk]

In the spirit of transparancy it should be left in there.

Also once the Casino’s doing this are named and shamed then surely legally they are bound to net reimburse all funds played in this. I’d even go so far to say this is plain fraud -> criminal charges.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Seems PnG is giving 98% value in some games in sweden.

The games are: Troll hunters, Golden ticket, leprechaun goes egypt, mermaids Diamond,
Raging rex, Wild north, Golden colts, superflip.....

This is from unibet and maria casino.

Or at least that's what the help file says

 

[bamberfishcake]

In the spirit of transparancy it should be left in there.

Also once the Casino’s doing this are named and shamed then surely legally they are bound to net reimburse all funds played in this. I’d even go so far to say this is plain fraud -> criminal charges.

Not sure of the legality. Think its more likely the UKGC would fine them, if proven and deemed to be unethical/unfair.

Hopefully make an example and put something in place to give the protection to players they apparently aim to.

 

[SpinUk]

Not sure of the legality. Think its more likely the UKGC would fine them, if proven and deemed to be unethical/unfair.

Hopefully make an example and put something in place to give the protection to players they apparently aim to.

UK legal definition:

“Fraud is committed in the following circumstances.
◆ When a person dishonestly makes a false representation with the intention of making a gain or causing a loss to another person or exposing them to the risk of loss (s2, FA 2006).”

If it walks and talks like fraud...

 

[bamberfishcake]

UK legal definition:

“Fraud is committed in the following circumstances.
◆ When a person dishonestly makes a false representation with the intention of making a gain or causing a loss to another person or exposing them to the risk of loss (s2, FA 2006).”

If it walks and talks like fraud...

Like that and totally agree.

Still 1% of me thinks they will get away with it a little but at worst this may help gain a more knowledgeable customer if the press get hold of it.

 

[asghan]

Checked few casinos. Accredited Everum has png at 87 what a disgrace

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The more eyes on this the better, has everyone found that the help file RTP matches the RTP shown in the network stack trace?

This is significant because the more evidence we have that those two numbers match, the more we can be sure that a major UK facing casino is advertising the slot at a higher RTP than they're running it at.

So as disgraceful as 87% RTP is, if it matches the stated help file RTP, then that's 'good', if you see what I mean.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Ahhh, Everum don't list the RTP at all, now we know why

 

[asghan]

Yeah I know what you mean, but I'm mostly checking curacao licensed casinos as they are not required to show their RTP.

Till now I was taking what was in help file at face value but as I understand from this big uk group case, it was a mistake.

Edit: Of course in demo mode they have 96%, at least some others casinos that had lower options had the same version for both play and real mode. Not cool Everum

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oohhh yeah that's pretty scummy.

Also, isn't that against the accreditation standards?

(Screenshot above is real play, this screenshot is demo play.)

 

[FAZI1]

Slottica and other sister sites including - Lucky Bird - All Right casino - Loki - Supercat ( Poor quality curacao licensed casinos targetting mainly in Russian - Polish traffic - all of them running Playngo slots at 84% RTP during last few months

Results from today morning test show 84%

Suprise - when im make new test few h ago then results was different - 96% So all this dirty poor quality casinos know already players found way to find informations abaout rtp% model they use - So now they quicly switched from 84% - to 96% same like vavada casino.

Curacao Licensed casino + Playngo software and few popular games like Book of dead or reactoonz is best way to make profits for all this curacao licensed casinos.

 

[SpinUk]

Can we share the two UKGC casinos in question now please? All screenshots and evidence is now gathered after all.