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Self Exclusion Failure?

Discussion in 'Self Exclusion Complaints' started by TravellingRecluse, Mar 17, 2019.

    Mar 17, 2019
  1. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham
    Hi all.

    Before we start I’ll make it clear this is another one of those “I gambled whilst self excluded” threads.

    Last April I released enough was enough, I joined GamStop, it felt a great relief.

    I have also excluded through Sense which my local Grosvenor handled in an excellent manner.

    All was good until I got the overwhelming urge.

    To cut it short I signed up to a UGKC licensed casino, I’ll will restrain from naming them at this point.

    Admittedly my address was different on the registrations (since updated with GS) due to moving in September last year.

    I had a small number of small deposits over a week or so period, lost.

    Payday comes and I do I think it was £800 in around 10-12 deposits I believe it was.

    I felt sick, I approached said companies live chat to self exclude.

    They said why?

    I said I have a gambling issue and have been registered with GS since last April.

    They said OK we”ll block you etc etc (more on this later) they said we”ll be in touch after reviewing the account to see if any refunds are due (I never asked for one)

    I sent the PDF from my GS a account to confirm this.

    They came back and said oh details don’t match so tough we keep the deposits.

    I queried what didn’t match, they replied we only get a yes or no answer.

    Clearly that’s bullshit as I sent them the PDF, it was my address.

    Name, DOB,email and mobile number all match.

    I asked for clarification on if I’d won would I have been paid, I had to wait until it escalated to the Fraud and Risk Manager to get a reply which was no, we retain deposits and winnings once we realise you are self excluded, hmm.

    Whilst this was going backwards and forwards I contacted another casino in the same group to check the self exclusion had been transferred.

    This was due to the original mentioned casino sending a deposit bonus offer the day after I asked live chat to exclude me.

    They argue that it was sent after self exclusion because it’s not self exclusion until it’s dealt with by the accounts department!! Really?

    Anyways, the second casino said your account has been closed since XYZ date (years) but it isn’t self excluded!!!
    Wow again so 72 hours after I notify the live chat at casino 1, casino 2 in the same grouo had no idea.

    The final response came from the F and R manager saying nope you tried to circumvent the system.

    Previously discussed topic followed, compulsion etc

    They said complain to IBAS, I did and they said they can’t help as only the UKGC can rule in this situation.

    I contacted GamStop for clarification after I’d read here that there are 3 possibly 4 required trigger points for GS to notify correctly, I had 4. (Original casino was sent a passport scan to confirm name and DOB) and the GamStop PDF showed the email and phone number.

    So, the crux, GS in no uncertain terms on live chat said that the original casino had not conducted FULL check as purely a phone number and email address should flag their system to warm them its a self excluded gambler trying to register (they claim they did KYC which checked out, not sure how if the information I provided was supposedly wrong)

    I have a transcript from GS chat which in black and white says this casino should have prevented me gambling.

    Do I have anything to go on here for a refund, I’m now of the opinion that I should have this as their internal system has not been used to even its most basic potential?

    I had no way of financially gaining here if they would not have paid me even if I’d won and provided personal details that are correct and can be proved with my passport, phone bill and email trails so I’m not trying to swindle the system I have a compulsion which until this incident I had proudly controlled for nearly a year.

    I welcome all reply’s even the critical ones, none of us are perfect so I’m not a crying victim of my own lack of self discipline.
     
    Supababe likes this.
  2. Mar 17, 2019
  3. paul7388

    paul7388 Meister Member MM

    Occupation:
    not a lot
    Location:
    glasgow scotland
    To be honest i think to get any sort of advice on what to do next you should name the casino.

    Does no harm naming them as people will start guessing names. But name the casino and members will be able to give you best advice whether it is a PAB or something else.
     
    dionysus likes this.
  4. Mar 17, 2019
  5. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham
    Hi Paul.

    As an experienced member of this forum then I will take your advice, it’s 21.co.uk of the Leo Vegas group.
     
  6. Mar 17, 2019
  7. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    I'm a Canucklehead
    edited out, apologies :)
     
  8. Mar 17, 2019
  9. paul7388

    paul7388 Meister Member MM

    Occupation:
    not a lot
    Location:
    glasgow scotland
    Lol why did i have a feeling that you would say it was that group.

    Seems to be a common trend at the moment as there have been several threads similar.

    But glad you named the group. At least now members will let you know what the best course of action is. Maybe be better to do a PAB tho so Max can check it out for you. Details on how to do it are at top of page under submit PAB.

    But if this is all correct and the other Pab's are also correct it would seem this group is not taking their responsible gaming duties very well but not my place to speculate on that.
     
    Mouche12, Supababe and Tirilej like this.
  10. Mar 17, 2019
  11. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham
    Yes Paul I guess it is a fairly common thing, I was totally unaware of the other big news events regarding this group until I was googling to see if anyone else had issues that were similar.

    I have sent them the copy of the transcripts from GS who surely know their own system.

    I don’t know how the GS system works personally hence I sought advice from them.

    They even mentioned at the bottom of the chat that this grouo had been fined in the past for poor Responbile Gambling practices.
     
  12. Mar 17, 2019
  13. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    I knew it was going to be LV too before I finished the first post. However, if the OP didn't keep his address updated with Gamstop then not sure how they can be blamed in this instance. If Gamstop came back with a negative response then its hardly the casinos fault.
    I don't believe gamstop saying 2 points should have triggered it, there have been numerous posts by casino staff on here saying that not to be the case. If Gamstop are telling the truth, then what action have they taken against the casino? They should be able to tell you what the responses have been when you have logged into your account, if they said you were self excluded, LV are in the wrong and they should pay you back all the money you spent, if they didn't then Gamstop are to blame. Unfortunately you are in breach of the terms and conditions you agreed to when you used the service and I'll pretty much guarantee you won't get anywhere with them.

    @LeoVegas Rep any reason why we are seeing regular posts on here recently about you allowing self excluded players to play at your sites?
     
    Mouche12 and Supababe like this.
  14. Mar 17, 2019
  15. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham

    Hi Colin,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I don’t know how it all works that’s why I’m asking for opinions/assistance.

    GamStop have advised me this should be enough and I shouldn’t have been able to gamble.

    I asked if they could see the results of the request and they said no (at livechat level, I have it in the transcript).

    I have acted and commented on what they have told me, nothing more.

    If the system is indeed not intelligent to even query something like a common email address etc then surely it’s flawed.

    If I ran a company or database etc that had an obligation and moral position to prevent a certain type of clientele and I became aware of information to suggest someone on this list is trying to enter I would at least query it. A simple email to say “no suggestion made but are you a problem” if not then the process continues.

    Terms and condition breach may be quoted however I should have not been allowed to sign those terms in the first place if that is the case in this situation, agree?

    If GamStoo have provided me incorrect information that I should have been detected where is the benefit to them in lying to me?

    I don’t know the intricate details of this process as stated before but as an intelligent and sound minded person if I read something that says “here’s a government/regulatory bodied backed system to prevent you from harming yourself anymore”.

    I am going to look into it and like any sound minded person would at least consider, go with the information they have given you.

    I believe I have done my part to prevent my issue getting worse, yes I didn’t have an updated address on the system but that would not fool a police record check if they had other complete information nor would it fool a credit checking service, we’ll not favourably anyways, so why it it seemingly OK in a casino situation.

    and what about the lack of transferring a problem gamblers details to a sister company, grouo partner whatever you want to call it.

    I will say with confidence that had I gone to Leo Vegas and reopened my account (I thought about reopening the account in desperation a year or two ago but didn’t as I thought I was already self excluded there.

    I did self exclude at many places before through rage etc, admitted, they would after the pending period reopened that account due to the vital information from 21 not being transferred to them (I have screenshots of that conversation on 3/3/19 after my original admission of an issue to live chat was on 1/3/19.)

    On that conversation they clearly acknowledge that the account was closed but not excluded, only through me asking and then telling them did they take action. I had no intention of trying to reopen that account or deposit in anyway, I’d had my shock. I was there to ensure temptation could not get the better of me again.
     
  16. Mar 17, 2019
  17. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham

    In addition, you say you knew the name already, says it all does it not.

    Monster fines are not given lightly, they have and I believe continue to fail problem gamblers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  18. Mar 17, 2019
  19. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    I wasn't having a go at you, just saying it how it is. You agreed to the term below when you signed up to gamstop, and they WILL use it to say they aren't at fault.

    You agree not to attempt to register new gambling accounts, log in to any of your existing accounts, or in any other way try to circumvent GAMSTOP's mechanisms for the duration of your self-exclusion. You are entirely responsible for any actions you take designed to circumvent any self-exclusion registered with GAMSTOP.

    I don't agree with it at all, a gambling addiction is an addiction. If you have someone addicted to coke trying to get off it, and stick a line of coke in front of them, they are likely to use it. If you have a self excluded gambler and allow him to open a new account he will.

    Theres no reason there has to be 4 matches on the database, yes a name and DOB shouldn't be enough, but an email address or telephone number are (almost) unique and that should block an account, unless the customer can prove they aren't the self excluded player.

    If Gamstop sent a negative response to the query then you cannot blame Leovegas, as how would they possibly know you were self excluded?

    Also, just to point out, the penalties LeoVegas were given were not for this type of thing, they didn't automatically return funds to SE'd players and allowed players, after the self exclusion ended, to play without speaking to them. Theres no suggestion they were allowing SE'd players to play. Having said that, recent threads suggest there is a problem there.

    How do you think they failed you in this case?
     
  20. Mar 18, 2019
  21. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham
     
  22. Mar 18, 2019
  23. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham
    I sound say regardless of what the fine was for that still sounds to me like they failed problem gamblers if they allowed them to play again without clarifying they did not have issues.

    They have failed in that they failed to detect I was a problem gambler despite GS confirming they should have detected it.

    You have said it yourself that information such as email and phone number are unique enough for a valid connection yet that didn’t happen.

    So yes ok there is the possible situation that GS didn’t send the correct information for a valid connection to be made but they are saying they did, if they didn’t then it’s worrying that this situation appears to happen more than once if you say it’s not the first time you have heard similar issues.

    But I don’t also believe that something as simple and an email address and phone number can be so easily miscommunicated between the two parties to fail in a detection.

    It all feels a little bit like every party can hide behind some sort of term or condition to absolve themselves of responsibility apart from the player who is the person that is supposed to be protected.

    The casino will be not better or worse off and neither would I if I’d they returned the deposits, if it costs a few percent to process so be it.

    I could not have gained from it as winnings wouldn’t be paid and they wouldn’t have had the money anyways if the detection system did it’s job properly and stopped me depositing.

    It all just lacks ethics and morality to me.
    Gamblers are being left out to dry by a broken system and the big corporates are still benefiting from those who cant afford it not just financially but mentally.

    I guess what you are saying is, tough, maybe, I don’t know the complexities.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  24. Mar 18, 2019
  25. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    You are basing your comments on misinformation by Gamstop.
    They do not share your information with the casino, as I said, they are sent your info by the casino and get a yes/no type response, that is all. Again, thats in their privacy policy, presumably something you read before you gave them all your details? As you have read the other posts on here where people have stated there has to be a certain number of matches, I'm sure you know that anyway as it's quite well documented on here.

    Online operators which have chosen to participate in the GAMSTOP scheme are required to check if their customers have self-excluded with GAMSTOP each time a customer logs in or tries to register for an account with them. They send their customer's data to our matching service, which checks this information with the personal data we hold about people who have self-excluded. The data is hashed for security and we only store this information as long as necessary to perform the check and let the operator know if there is a match.

    The other thing is, you would have been paid if you had won, as LeoVegas wouldn't have known anything about your SE if you hadn't told them, which presumably you wouldn't if you were waiting for a cashout. And this type of thing is damaging to them as if it becomes known as a way to have a no lose situation, people will take advantage.

    Your complaint should be with Gamstop, from what you have posted, not with LeoVegas. You could try a SAR and see if you can get them to disclose the response from Gamstop on all your logins, but I'm not actually sure if that would fall under the scope of the act. Having said that, to put this to rest, they might tell you anway. I also note, Gamstop wouldn't (or possibly couldn't) tell you what the result was they sent back, yet you seem to think it is LV's fault. Gamstop seem to be implying a mobile number should flag it, yet as they don't send the mobile number to the casino, how could the casino possibly know what number Gamstop have stored? Or email address or anything? However, Gamstop do see the data the casino have stored. If you don't believe me thats fine, but look at the bolded parts above. Gamstop collect the customer data and send a response back saying yes there is a match, no there isn't a match. That is all they do. All LV see is yes/no match.

    I'm not saying it's right, but you are targeting the wrong people.
     
  26. Mar 18, 2019
  27. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham

    Hi Colin

    Thanks for the honest response.

    You mention there are numerous recent issues of a similar situation with the same part involved, have they been addressed do you know?

    I know for certain I would not have been paid as 21 have finally issued a response to that saying I tried to circumvent their system so all funds would be retained.

    So actually for me in this situation it’s the opposite, I had a no win situation, even a problem gambler would be silly to try that one.

    For me personally I haven’t tried to open an account anywhere else apart from the Leo Vegas Group so I can’t comment on others but it does seem to me that either GS require limited information to make their judgement in terms of sending a yes or no reply or the sender is presenting limited information.

    I’ve been given one side of the story but not the other.

    The whole situation does suggest the GamStop system is basically pointless if it can so easily fail and it’s an industry/regulator barrier to responsibility that is disguised as a prevention tool.

    It is a sad state of affairs in society when an addict can be told if you are an addict then we will pretend to care but actually when you make a mistake you are on your own.
     
  28. Mar 18, 2019
  29. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    The other issues aren't the same as this, although to do with SE.

    They told you you wouldn't have been paid as by that point they were aware you were self excluded, if they didn't know, then theres no reason not to pay you.

    I would go back to gamstop and complain, using some of the information in this thread and what the casino have told you to take it further, specifically I would be asking why they told you they sent information to the casino when their privacy policy states they don't, the fact they said the casino should have picked up on the mobile number or email address is them suggesting they sent the casino that information.
     
  30. Mar 18, 2019
  31. EkJR

    EkJR Experienced Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Gamstop looks at 5 details.

    First Name, Surname, Date of Birth, Postcode and email address.

    If 4 or 5 of these match the Gamstop register then the account is blocked. I have argued that it should be 3 and an automatic suspension put on an account until it can be ascertained.

    LV are having some real issues with exclusions applying across the group and I know they are trying to fix this but really they should be returning your deposits. If you can show that 4 or more of the above details match then you have a case.
     
  32. Mar 18, 2019
  33. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    A match on an email address or phone number should be enough by itself to block the account. As much as both can be re-issued, the chances of that are low, and even lower that they would both have casinos accounts with the previous owner having self excluded.

    If LV are at fault I agree they should refund the deposits, but in this case I think Gamstop didn't say there was a block on, if thats the case then Gamstop should refund, not that they will :(
     
  34. Mar 18, 2019
  35. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham

    Thanks for the reply.

    Well I’ve sent them a copy of my passport so that’s name and DOB and my email address has been the same for EVERY casino I’ve used in at least 10 years.

    Colin, again thanks for your reply.

    If I’ve mentioned that GS have sent the casino information then I could be incorrect (I’ll re read the transcript after work) but if definitely states that phone number and email alone should have flagged the account.

    From what you say though it sounds like they will stand behind the “broken T&C” bit which I’m shocked to believe that such a thing can be included. As we have said an addict will seek to fulfill a craving regardless of what it is.

    Had a submitted incorrect details and tried to fraud the system I’d understand but I haven’t and when other posters are saying they know that this group is having issues then clearly I’m not unique.

    A messy situation it seems and one I’m not likely to succeed in getting a satisfactory result from based on what has been said here.
     
  36. Mar 18, 2019
  37. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    The point I'm making about that is, if Gamstop are correct in what they said about that, then the failing must be with them, as 21 don't get that information from Gamstop. If they say 21 should have picked up on it, then you should be asking how, as the only way the casino could pick up on it is if gamstop sent them that information, which they don't. If Gamstop sent a positive flag back then 21 are at fault, but without confirmation of what flag was sent then its just guessing. I would be asking them both to confirm what response Gamstop sent every time you logged in then work from there.
     
  38. Mar 18, 2019
  39. TravellingRecluse

    TravellingRecluse Newbie member

    Location:
    Nottingham

    Hi Colin,

    Good advice cheers I’ll go back to them both and see if they are willing to provide this information.
     

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