Self Exclusion Failure?

Slottery

Senior Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
I'm unfortunately pretty sure that if they have given their final word, contacting them again will be a waste of time. If that final word came from Risk and Fraud manager, your possible complaint will most probably be addressed back to the same person who is dealing with responsible gaming and related issues.

As you have contacted pretty much all authorities and operator, it's hard to believe that they will change their mind if you do it again. Only way i could think would be a legal route but that has no guarantee of success but much more risk to lose more money in that because of these GS terms where they are referring and if it's investigated by Risk and Fraud manager, i personally wouldn't go that route.
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Nottingham
I'm unfortunately pretty sure that if they have given their final word, contacting them again will be a waste of time. If that final word came from Risk and Fraud manager, your possible complaint will most probably be addressed back to the same person who is dealing with responsible gaming and related issues.

As you have contacted pretty much all authorities and operator, it's hard to believe that they will change their mind if you do it again. Only way i could think would be a legal route but that has no guarantee of success but much more risk to lose more money in that because of these GS terms where they are referring and if it's investigated by Risk and Fraud manager, i personally wouldn't go that route.


I’ve asked them if they are considering I tried to commit fraud and that got blanked, no reply. I have sent them a copy of my passport and will happily send proof of address etc if they asked for it. I don’t see how they can suggest I’ve attempted fraud anyways as they wouldn’t pay out if I’d won so that wouldn’t be very good fraud would it.
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Nottingham
I’ve asked them if they are considering I tried to commit fraud and that got blanked, no reply. I have sent them a copy of my passport and will happily send proof of address etc if they asked for it. I don’t see how they can suggest I’ve attempted fraud anyways as they wouldn’t pay out if I’d won so that wouldn’t be very good fraud would it.


Plus if have nothing to hide then why are they not responding to my requests for GamStop responses at registration and log in?

Can any other casino reps who may be reading in comment in general terms if it is normal to hold this information in case of an investigation?
 

EkJR

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Location
Glasgow
I have had a final response from the Fraud and Risk Manager at 21, she said take it to ADR, probably knowing full well they won’t/can’t do anything as it’s a SE issue (I did check with the one that 21 suggested to contact)

Does anyone have the leovegas complaints email address handy please? I don’t want to use the wrong one and just sent it to the general accounts one as they won’t have anything to do with 21 accounts I’m sure

Just the main one I think but put the header as "complaint"
 

Slottery

Senior Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
I’ve asked them if they are considering I tried to commit fraud and that got blanked, no reply. I have sent them a copy of my passport and will happily send proof of address etc if they asked for it. I don’t see how they can suggest I’ve attempted fraud anyways as they wouldn’t pay out if I’d won so that wouldn’t be very good fraud would it.

Didn't by any mean meant that you they are suspecting you as fraudster. It's just Risk and Fraud team is many times responsible about RG/SE related issues and would assume that if you got reply from their manager, he/she is person who is handling these complaints.

If i understood right, there is no any fraudulent accusations from casino either but only this self-exclusion issue where you both have a different opinion. I just see it really hard to make them to change theirs after getting final word from management level. Just how i see your issue is at the moment based on information available, they have given their final word and told you to claim official complaint for some authorities, based on what you have already done, legal action seems more and more only way to get further.

Also seeing it quite hard that any 3rd party would change their opinion, they pretty much seems to have decided that this is fully dealt already and without any authorities demanding them to provide more details they probably do not.

Would be interesting to know everything happened between casinos/GS but it unfortunately seems that it will not going to be happening if they don't want to cooperate more.

edit: here is link to Resolver service what always can try, not sure if that is any help but it's free of charge at least:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Nottingham
Didn't by any mean meant that you they are suspecting you as fraudster. It's just Risk and Fraud team is many times responsible about RG/SE related issues and would assume that if you got reply from their manager, he/she is person who is handling these complaints.

If i understood right, there is no any fraudulent accusations from casino either but only this self-exclusion issue where you both have a different opinion. I just see it really hard to make them to change theirs after getting final word from management level. Just how i see your issue is at the moment based on information available, they have given their final word and told you to claim official complaint for some authorities, based on what you have already done, legal action seems more and more only way to get further.

Also seeing it quite hard that any 3rd party would change their opinion, they pretty much seems to have decided that this is fully dealt already and without any authorities demanding them to provide more details they probably do not.

Would be interesting to know everything happened between casinos/GS but it unfortunately seems that it will not going to be happening if they don't want to cooperate more.

Well hopefully the UKGC deem that they are obliged to provide this information as they could just make it up as they see fit
 

EkJR

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MM
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Location
Glasgow
Well hopefully the UKGC deem that they are obliged to provide this information as they could just make it up as they see fit

Fraudster gets banded about by these casinos a lot. 9 times out of 10 is someone with serious addiction problems fulfilling the need to gamble. It's always vulnerable people who these operators seem to not give a fuck about.

From my own experience, William Hill have allowed me to open 4 accounts in 6 months last year before/and after Gamstop. The only changed details were either phone number or email address yet they allowed the exclusions each time and still allowed account creation. Now I'm not saying Leo are as bad but it's this "we don't give a shit about RG, do you know who we are" attitude employed particularly amongst the biggest operators that is a worry. Every single case and time it happens it has to go to the UKGC and pushed and pushed as far as it can go. Fuck, even go to the media if needs be. They get away with destroying the lives of the vulnerable by, for me, deliberately having loose checking systems.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
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Location
uk
As annoying as it is, if you requested the gamstop responses as part of your SAR and they have said they need more time to supply it, then you have to wait. Without that information it will be hard to go any further. Again though, if the responses were negative then 21.co.uk have done no wrong. If they get told you aren't SE'd then they will allow you to play.
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Nottingham
4 a
Fraudster gets banded about by these casinos a lot. 9 times out of 10 is someone with serious addiction problems fulfilling the need to gamble. It's always vulnerable people who these operators seem to not give a fuck about.

From my own experience, William Hill have allowed me to open 4 accounts in 6 months last year before/and after Gamstop. The only changed details were either phone number or email address yet they allowed the exclusions each time and still allowed account creation. Now I'm not saying Leo are as bad but it's this "we don't give a shit about RG, do you know who we are" attitude employed particularly amongst the biggest operators that is a worry. Every single case and time it happens it has to go to the UKGC and pushed and pushed as far as it can go. Fuck, even go to the media if needs be. They get away with destroying the lives of the vulnerable by, for me, deliberately having loose checking systems.


Wow, 4 accounts, I’m guessing you never got a pay out from any of them?
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
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Location
Nottingham
As annoying as it is, if you requested the gamstop responses as part of your SAR and they have said they need more time to supply it, then you have to wait. Without that information it will be hard to go any further. Again though, if the responses were negative then 21.co.uk have done no wrong. If they get told you aren't SE'd then they will allow you to play.


This is very true yes they could be totally free of liability. Just seems a little on they can compile an SAR in 48 hours yet a few simple yes or no’s and nothing in nearly 5 days.

If they don’t supply it then I’ll just tell the UKGC that as they want copies of all correspondence too as well as the marketing email I was sent
 

EkJR

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MM
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Location
Glasgow
4 a



Wow, 4 accounts, I’m guessing you never got a pay out from any of them?

Nope but I have taken other measures. Not caring about the money anymore like any of these SE things. The gambling itself was the problem for me. What I won't do is let these companies away with flagrant breaches and an attitude of we can just keep your money when they have broken the terms and spirit of their LCCP. "We believe in responsible gaming"...empty words when they can allow you to open account after account and take your money without any refund ever or admission that they have done something wrong. If this case turns out the same I'm happy to include it in the report I have compiled.
 

EkJR

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Location
Glasgow
This is very true yes they could be totally free of liability. Just seems a little on they can compile an SAR in 48 hours yet a few simple yes or no’s and nothing in nearly 5 days.

If they don’t supply it then I’ll just tell the UKGC that as they want copies of all correspondence too as well as the marketing email I was sent

This is the new response from the UKGC now. Get a SAR, waste another 30 days, send the SAR on and they do very little unless there have been another 100 complaints of the same nature. The whole thing is designed to ultimately protect the operators in individual cases.
 

TravellingRecluse

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PABnononaccred
Joined
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Location
Nottingham
This is the new response from the UKGC now. Get a SAR, waste another 30 days, send the SAR on and they do very little unless there have been another 100 complaints of the same nature. The whole thing is designed to ultimately protect the operators in individual cases.

The old too big to fail. I watched a good documentary the other day, Netflix I think it was but may have been amazon prime about HSBC, mostly the scandal involving the known laundering of Mexican cartel money. Obviously it went to the very top of the US legal system but ultimately they got away with a slap on the wrist (fine, which was pittance in comparison to turnover and profit)

I hear a lot of chat about people saying that there will be fewer and fewer choices with all of these new UKGC proposals/implementations, I don’t agree really, for the following reasons:

Gambling is meant to be random/luck so it should not matter where or when you play as to whether you win or lose.

The companies that survive and prosper will be the ones that can be relied to do things properly in terms of RG, Payouts and quality and honest support systems.

As long as the ones that prosper offer the game categories that people will want to play then where is the issue.

I watched Dunovers latest bonanza video on YouTube on my flight home this morning and he talked about it, saying that will he left with the likes of the high street bookmakers.

If that’s the case, based on my experience with the likes of Ladbrokes, betfred, paddy power, I think that’s a good thing, they were all very good and straight.

Others that always impressed me were sky bet, virgin games, bet 365, casino and video slots. There are probably others oh yeah bet Victor.

I’m sure they are not all perfect but that’s my position, the cowboys, then could close tomorrow for all I cared, I only people I would feel for are those that are employed there and do care but a bent business and ethics model dictates otherwise.
 

TravellingRecluse

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PABnononaccred
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Location
Nottingham
So I’ve finally had a reply regarding GamStop response logs.

They don’t keep them! I’m flabbergasted that for something that could be so crucial in the prevention of problem gambling and how successful the system is, they don’t have to be kept.

OK maybe every log in is a little excessive but surely at least at registration.

The support person did say they would send the details of my issue to senior management after I requested that, not expecting anything but it will give them some more to do.

I guess after that I am all out of options, the house wins. It’s possible that it will have some legs with the UKGC as part of a bigger picture but I’ll see nothing of it
 

EkJR

Senior Member
MM
Joined
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Location
Glasgow
So I’ve finally had a reply regarding GamStop response logs.

They don’t keep them! I’m flabbergasted that for something that could be so crucial in the prevention of problem gambling and how successful the system is, they don’t have to be kept.

OK maybe every log in is a little excessive but surely at least at registration.

The support person did say they would send the details of my issue to senior management after I requested that, not expecting anything but it will give them some more to do.

I guess after that I am all out of options, the house wins. It’s possible that it will have some legs with the UKGC as part of a bigger picture but I’ll see nothing of it

Hope this gets sorted out. Let me know how you get on.
 

Sasukdcf

Full Member
PABnorogue
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Location
Norwich
Only read some of the thread but it does appear to be somewhat pointless to have Gamstop in place if it can be so easily circumnavigated and no responsibility is taken.

The person in question probably thought they could get their fix and then get the money refunded it wasn’t about the winning it was just about playing.

Hence why playing when he knew he couldn’t withdraw.

As for the industry being too big, I do think eventually there will be a PPI type moment when people get an opportunity to claim refunds back from the casinos...

Not for a while yet but eventually the GC will catch up with what century we are in and some truths will come out as to just how the industry works and hopefully a lot of them will get hit hard or closed down!
 

TravellingRecluse

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Location
Nottingham
Only read some of the thread but it does appear to be somewhat pointless to have Gamstop in place if it can be so easily circumnavigated and no responsibility is taken.

The person in question probably thought they could get their fix and then get the money refunded it wasn’t about the winning it was just about playing.

Hence why playing when he knew he couldn’t withdraw.

As for the industry being too big, I do think eventually there will be a PPI type moment when people get an opportunity to claim refunds back from the casinos...

Not for a while yet but eventually the GC will catch up with what century we are in and some truths will come out as to just how the industry works and hopefully a lot of them will get hit hard or closed down!


I didn’t know I wouldn’t get paid until they told me.

Even the most stupid addicts wouldn’t generally gamble if there’s no chance of winning but if they would not pay me if I won then there’s no justice in the world.
 
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